Welcome to California

[Tom G. Laury]

Can you imagine, how would you like it; if most of the managed bee colonies in North America were coming to your home county in a few months, their owners too, competing for pasture, open space, and pollination income? Gold Rush for sure! California! Fields of nuggets, just waiting to be unearthed!

[JohnK and Sheri]

We'll be there in November;), half our bees were in your county the others in Madera. There isn't a whole lot of pasture around then, we have to buy it by the patty and by the pound.
Sheri

[Tom G. Laury]

You didn't answer the question

[Oldbee]

"Can you imagine, how would you like it; if most of the managed bee colonies in North America were coming to your home county......."

It seems/sounds like you are having a bit of a problem with that; please explain!?

[BGhoney]

Its worse here, Californians move up here and don't leave.:D

[high rate of speed]

Land of milk and honey sure,almond pollination and thats about it.

[Tom G. Laury]

Oldbee You didn't answer the question either! It's the pits! You have NO idea.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Tom,
I suppose if I was the only one who had bees in an area that had an intense need for pollination I could not come close to providing I would probably be brokering more bees into the area to turn the situation to my advantage. If California beekeepers could provide the services needed there wouldn't be any coming from out of state.
As for competing for forage, there sure isn't any in the wind swept god forsaken field our bees get set down in prior to almonds. Tell me where forage is in November, I won't tell anyone else, promise.:)

Seriously, we have had migrators plop a semi of bees half way between two of our summer yards and I agree it is enough to make one take up arms. They aren't even doing themselves much of a favor; they all starve. However, if they wanted to bring them in the middle of winter, well, more power to them.
Sheri

[HarryVanderpool]

Thank you very much for the kind welcome, Tom!
Maybe I'll see you in February.
And by all means, please feel welcome visiting Oregon! :)
( But as our former Governor, Tom McCall said, "Visit, but please don't stay!".) :eek:
Thanks again for the warm welcome, fellow beekeeper.

[Tom G. Laury]

BGhoney, it's worse here, Washingtonians,Oregonians, N. Dakotans, Wyomingans, Montanans, Coloradans, etc., etc., come and don't leave. Plus we have all the Californicans panning mining and searching for gold too.

[Oldbee]

"It's the pits. You have NO idea".

OK. Keep me guessing. Either you feel you have too many honey bees [colonies] coming into your "county" you can't stand it or there is something else,."bugging" you.

"Oldbee you didn't answer the question either".

I wasn't trying to "answer" the question. I need more information. Ok,...I have no idea.

[Tom G. Laury]

Hi John & Sherri
thanks for the quick comeback! Yeah I do "broker" or handle bees and profit fromthat no question. But try to address the issue I'm raising...what about the overcrowding here and all of the effects that has on those of us who live here?

[Tom G. Laury]

Harry Vanderpool:
I didn't understand what you were saying to me. Sarcasm or not?

[JohnK and Sheri]

Well, Tom, I am feeling right sorry for you. Why don't you come on up to Wisconsin for a while and maybe that will put you in a better mood. Lots of fresh air, wide open spaces, not much traffic, not a speck of gold to be found unless you count the dandelions. Oh, and there's lots of the Wisconsin state bird. Shoot, the lakes even thaw for a month or two.

But smart talk aside, are you talking overcrowding of bees, or of people or both? If it is people you are talking about I can tell you this.
I am a 3rd generation Californian by birth, I still have family spread from La Joya to Willets, but I had the good sense to leave 30 years ago. (no offense to y'all still there ;) )I lived in the Sac valley and it was overcrowded then. Like the saying goes "Love it or leave it". Life is too short to spend it being unhappy or stressed if you can do something about it. My grandfather used to say "California would be a wonderful place if it wasn't for all those Californians".
If it is overcrowding of bees, I am learning something here because I didn't really think forage was an issue in wintertime, at least not in the valley. From my experience there isn't much of anything to compete for until almonds bloom, at least not where our bees are. We take it for granted we provide the forage from the back of our truck.
You did say "in a couple months". Are there beeks coming in earlier than November in any numbers?
And here is a hypothetical question. How would you arrange things to make them more to your liking, considering the pollination needs of California?
Sheri

[Tom G. Laury]

John&Sherri:
Hi did you not post my reply?

[tileguy]

Ditto Sheri, he should come visit the U.P. too, I was born and raised in Ca. and my kids still live there, and in a few years I just might be sending semi truck loads of bees to the Golden State too...... :p
T.G.

[Tom G. Laury]

John K & Sherri:
Why did I disappear? Did I violate some rules?

[JohnK and Sheri]

John&Sherri:
Hi did you not post my reply?
Your reply is posted, I can see it.
John K & Sherri:
Why did I disappear? Did I violate some rules?
You didn't disappear, you didn't do anything wrong that I am aware of:)

As for not addressing your question, that may be because we are not understanding your concerns. Is it the bees that are a problem, the beekeepers or all those goldminers.:)

Maybe you could detail some of the problems you are having.

Oh, and T.G. you crack me up.:D:D
Sheri

[Trevor Mansell]

I understand ,they all used to come to Fl. for winter then the Orange Bossom. If you dont like it you will probably have to move because we wont stop comming out there .

[tecumseh]

mr laury writes: Can you imagine,

tecusmseh replies:
well after two or three folks have suggested that your question is neither clear nor well stated I would think perhaps you would get the message and restate your concerns in the simplist fashion possible. just a suggestion..

at this point the problem appear to be one of simple envy or jealousy. ain't new and it ain't just a left coast thingee either. over the years I have heard the same whining in florida, texas, louisiana and north dakota (and now california). at least two of these states have enacted laws to keep the riff raff out... which appears to work... well at least sometimes.

this 'problem' does affect me as being somewhat like the whining in regards to the illegal problems. which to be quite blunt but stated quite simple is.... I don't think my forefathers asked the whiners to come and visit here either and they definitely didn't ask them to stay.

[Chef Isaac]

People move into cali and peoiple move out. It is the nature of the beast. It has ben happening for a long time. If you do not like it, simply move.

[power napper]

Tom G Laury--a short answer to your question is most definately not, I live here.
It is a similar prediclament of being in a good hunting area and being beseiged by hunters having the same intent as you or being in a honey hole fishing and when you catch one twenty lines splash into the water as you land your fish.
I am not chastising anyone or finding fault in how things are accomplished--it is unfortunate that your situation is happening, there is no answer blowing in the wind.

The persons placing their hives are doing a service and earning a living as best they can, as our world gets smaller we all feel nudges from the sides some of us more than others.

I am thanful to be living in a remote (for now) area.

[Ross]

Sound like the old saw you hear in every nice location, "Just let me and a few of my friends in, then lock the gate forever". And every new group feels the same way and has for 200 years. Every few years in any new 'resort' area, be it Florida, Colorado, Wyoming, California, or where ever, someone wants to limit development, stop growth, save the environment, keep it just like it was when I got here, etc. And it's always the people that got there in the last 10 years. We winter a whole bunch of Dakota bees in Texas every winter. We winter a bunch of "snowbirds" as well.

[BEES4U]

I have found out over the many years of beekeeping that a lot of beekeepers will sit down a load of bees near "your" location without any regrets!
When the oranges and sage brush bloomed in Ventura County [BCalifornia[B]
the towns of Ojai, Santa Paula, Fillmore and Piru were inundated by out of town towners.
I know very well what you are talking about! I had a California pollen trapper sit his butt on top of one of my hives that I was feeding syrup to in late December and he said that he would never put a load of bees next to another beekeepers location. Well, you know what happened mext pollen trapping season, he unloaded a truck and trailer within a stones throw of my yard!
The keeping of bees is migratory if you want to stay in it for profit.
We have had beekeepers without land owner permission unload bees next to us and by the time we got them to leave the oranges were 80% done blooming.
Now you know why " things happen to hives"
I could go on. But, I think that we have all heard the stories.
Best regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries

[Keith Jarrett]

Can you imagine, how would you like it;!

Well Tom, can you imagine that most of the large Cali keepers in the summer head EAST.

Gee imagine that, shame on those Cali keepers sitting on some honey flow back there. :)

Just remember, do you want all those bees here ( Cali) 365 day's a year.

[Tom G. Laury]

OK everyone, I guess I am whining, but...I have my life invested here and I can't just move. 37 years keeping bees as sole source of my livelihood. This pollination situation is I know helping us all to survive and I really don't begrudge anyone for doing what they need to do. The main problem I run in to out here is price cutting ( "Whatever they're charging, I'll do it for less" ), both in the almonds and in secondary pollination, like apples & cherries. Yes it's true that there isn't any pasture in November, but that's not so in March. Competition for feed and buildup has always been intense here but now is even more so. Then the rush to citrus bloom. Many bees from the Northern tier of states stay until it warms up a little back home, making splits, etc. There is also a lot of "new money" eager to make the quick and easy buck pollinating. They usually don't last more than two years but disrupt business while they last. Maybe I'm just getting too old and have trouble accepting change.

[staythecourse]

Don't make me come over there.

[JohnK and Sheri]

>>>"Ok play nice, don't make me come over there.<<<

:DWe WERE playing nice, you should see us when we're bad!:D
Sheri

[JohnK and Sheri]

Tom, the beekeeping world is changing, that is for sure.
I hear ya about the low-ballers and under-cutters. They rile me too. I figure they are either ignorant or desperate; beeks who bet the farm and now have to place bees for something, anything, to get a little revenue in. As you say, they probably won't last long, but can be a pain in the pocketbook while they are around. A smart grower will realize it is better to pay a little more to beekeepers with a proven track record rather than gamble on some fly by nighter who might or might not fulfill his end of the deal. It is hard enough getting your money's worth without trying to pick off the bottom of the barrel. There is a lot of money at stake, what happens if he can't deliver? If that beek goes under, who is the grower going to turn to? Another fly by nighter? Pretty poor business plan if you ask me....

It is tempting to stay out there to do the spring work, especially in a year like this last one. If we had stayed til it warmed up in Wisconsin we would still be out there, lol. We basically send ours home as soon as a)the growers release them, b)the snow is gone (or like this year, once we plow the 2' of snow off the holding yard!) and c)we can get the trucks headed this way.
The secondary pollination I can see would be a problem,. All the beeks who have geared up for almonds need a place to park them afterward. Getting paid anything is better than nothing, which is what is happening back home at that time of year. Smarter people than I have speculated that almonds will end up subsidizing, at least partially, many other crops. We have seen that in Wisconsin for some time now, with cranberries. Out of staters place bees way lower than the market, and basically lower the entire playing field. I am thinking the price of deisel might put a damper on some of that....but maybe not. It may be unfortunate, but that is how the market works. We all have to adapt or shut the doors.
Sheri

[cow pollinater]

I'm with Tom, Good beekeeping should be our reward for putting up with all the other crap that comes with living in California. Stay home, and when we come to your state, we should be treated like refugees greeted with open arms as, unfortunately, some day we will have to return to our homeland...

Did I mention that I'm a small dot of red in a big blue state?

[moonlightbeekeeper]

heres to hoping that you get your just reward
if you can figure out a way to pollinate those pesky almond trees your self great if not try to bee patient until the pollinators are gone if the bees stay year around i would guess that there must bee food for all? I have had some commercial guys move into the areas i have yards and still harvest about125 lbs from each hive i super!!!

[tileguy]

This is the way it is, not just with beekeeping...... Construction, we get other nationalities Under Bidding, Lowballing and Fly by Night work. Migrant workers are dominating other trades because the money is better, Russians are doing the same thing in the tile and marble trade,
White people took what was the Native Americans,
The rich are buying and building in Hawaii and the Islanders cant keep their land and afford to live THEIR life, and its ruining the islands with over developing.........
Yeah life sucks, Dont like it????/ Adapt,Survive, or Die........
I know I will roll with the punches, Hope you do too and be somewhat HAPPY..
T.G.

[Chef Isaac]

you think people are low balling now. Wait until the mexican boarder opens up.

[MapMan]

Yes, Sheri, Tileguy... Unfortunately, there are lowlifes out there who undercut their prices and overvalue their capabilities - in every profession - some more than others.

<Rant on> I lose bids all the time to others who provide crap, and then the client comes cryin' back to me complaining about how crappy the service and work of the underbidder... and can I help them out? But, Corporate America is just like that -- low bidders get the job, because if you meet your budget, you get big bonuses. Never mind that their jobs suck trying to make silk purses out of sows ears - the $ erases the pain. <Rant off>

MM

[KQ6AR]

I work construction in central California, have about 20years. The borders opened up a long time ago. I've watched the trades go to pot & wages go down. If I moved to Los Angeles I'd make a lot less money than I do up here near San Fransisco.

There not just doing menial jobs ether.

Dan

[Romahawk]

Yes, Sheri, Tileguy... Unfortunately, there are lowlifes out there who undercut their prices and overvalue their capabilities - in every profession - some more than others.
MM

I usually don't get involved in this type of conversation but I have a dislike for the term Low Life. I remember that early in the year and late last fall there were folks who were chuckling and rubbing their hands in glee over the thought that there would be a shortage of bees for pollination. Guess they though that instead of charging a reasonable price for their services they would be able to drive the price way up as the growers would be over a barrel and wouldn't be able to refuse the new over inflated price. Now along comes some poor soul who wants to break into the pollination business and is offering the grower a legitimate price based on his cost and not and over inflated price based on the fact that the growers were at their mercy. Definitely two different types of business people.

So which one would you say is the low life?

[tecumseh]

john and sheri k writes: I am thinking the price of deisel might put a damper on some of that....but maybe not.

tecumseh replies: undoubtly this should increase variable cost and place some floor on the downside price cutting.

one of the smarter business moves I have heard tell in recent times is a very good bee keeper who went to california and found two well recommended local bee keepers who rents his bees as a percentage of the almond pollination. they keep and maintain the lot thru the citrus crop for a bit of high value honey and then ship them back home. the owner spend a minimum amount of time in california and everyone can profit from the deal.

cow pollinator writes:
Did I mention that I'm a small dot of red in a big blue state?

tecumseh replies: shocked... I'm shocked.

[JohnK and Sheri]

.... folks who were chuckling and rubbing their hands in glee over the thought that there would be a shortage of bees for pollination.Guess they though that instead of charging a reasonable price for their services they would be able to drive the price way up as the growers would be over a barrel and wouldn't be able to refuse the new over inflated price. Now along comes some poor soul who wants to break into the pollination business and is offering the grower a legitimate price based on his cost and not and over inflated price based on the fact that the growers were at their mercy.
Are you seriously suggesting that price should be based on the cost of the service rather than supply/demand? Who would determine your "legitimate price" and based on whose cost? Should we be allowed a profit? And what would determine a "legitimate" profit?
Basic supply/demand drives the pollination market. When there was a shortage of bees a couple years ago it was the growers bidding up the price, not the beekeepers making demands. The growers were competing for a diminished supply. That rise in price could be interpreted as a scream for help from the growers, and beekeepers from all parts of the country answered the call. If a surplus of bees develops, the price will go south just as quickly and beeks won't have the incentive to ship. (Perhaps the low-ballers/undercutters (I didn't call them low-lifes;) ) are an indication of developing oversupply.) The market might be messy, but equilibrium forms.
If anyone was rubbing their hands in glee it was in realization that the price was holding, allowing many beekeepers (after spending money on syrup, pollen, fumidil, diesel fuel, shipping, hotels, meals, etc in California) to pay their home mortgage payment, maybe update some equipment, basically keep the lights on.
The last few years, with low honey prices, many beekeepers were managing almost exclusively for pollination. Now with the price of honey rising substantially we might have to rethink some of that strategy. But wait, do you think we should base the price of honey on our costs? Great, we could raise the prices even more.:)


.... rents his bees as a percentage of the almond pollination....
Is this based on percentage of the crop? How do they determine price?
Sheri

[Romahawk]

Are you seriously suggesting that price should be based on the cost of the service rather than supply/demand? Who would determine your "legitimate price" and based on whose cost? Should we be allowed a profit? And what would determine a "legitimate" profit?


Did anyone listen the the oil company execs. testifying before congress? :eek: We all know the price of gas wasn't determined months ago by the oil companies when they said we would see $4.00 a gallon gas by memorial day. It is being caused by supply and demand right?

Don't want to get into a tinkling contest here as we all think differently. Me, when I look at the back yard I see the hobby hives just a working away making a product that costs me very little if anything. Most of my wood and paints are free and the bees make their own foundation. I guess a legitimate price for me based on cost is about zero so I'm happy selling a few quarts at six bucks each and giving the rest to my relatives and friends. Not trying to undercut the locals, just getting a fair return for all the work I didn't put into making the finished product.Oh yea, that is after my carboys are working hard on my free mead minus the cost of the yeast of course.

[JohnK and Sheri]

Roma you hit the nail on the head when you talked about your hobby hives. But it was easy to tell you are not doing it to put food on the table. I have no problem with people giving their stuff away. It does bother me a bit that some hobbyist can casually condemn commercial beekeepers for the sin of trying to stay in business, but ultimately it makes me glad we have the freedom in this country to make a living as best we can without some bureaucrat who doesn't know anything about it telling us how much we can charge. My customers will tell me, don't worry!:)

As for oil, It IS supply and demand, like it or not, even if the supply is being manipulated. When the price gets unbearable, demand will subside as alternatives are found, assuming a reasonably unrestricted marketplace. If cheap hydrogen energy was suddenly commercially available what do you think the price of oil would do?
I don't like being held over a barrel(:D) any more than the next person, but high prices generate entirely new industries, and encourage conservation, when little else has accomplished this. High prices can also precipitate recession which lowers demand, which lowers price. That is some balancing act OPEC/big oil is trying to play.
Sheri

[Angi_H]

Growing up and living in Ca we have all seen changes we all dont like. Ca is the number one ag producing state. And with out help we would not be there. Yes having bees I have seen getting spots to place the bees fall short because of the out of towners being still here. This year I was not even able to get placement in the citrus or squash or onions/garlic. So here they are at my home garden wiith all of the squash, onions, garlic, tomatoes, pumpkins and melons. My Citrus trees are getting blooms again so it wont be long. I just need to find someone local to help me find places to stick my bees. Being in Central Valley and IN Kings County south of Fresno County we have Almonds going in all around us. IN the 10 mile route to my sons school there is 5 new almond orchards that have went in this year alone. So what is that going to do with demand next year. I do know that since boom was 2 to 3 weeks late here I was feeding the other beekeepers bees here in my open feeders. And boy did they eat alot. But the guy with the almonds that is less then 1/4 mile away across the alfalfa field of his knows now that I have bees. And I plan on going and talking with him about them again as well this fall. Trying to get a spot close to home. It just makes us smaller guys with all of the bigger guys harder to find places to put our local things on. Oh Sunflower bloom is going full steam.

Angi

[Angi_H]

Sorry I had to delete the double post dont know why that happened.

Angi

[Tom G. Laury]

Sheri:

Thank you for telling it like it is.

[Keith Jarrett]

Sheri:

Thank you for telling it like it is.

Yes, I agree.
Very well said.

[Tom G. Laury]

Hey :

I think you used to work for TP. Tell me if I'm wrong. Thank you for your support. It is hard to lose your home to outsiders, isn't it?

[Angi_H]

Hey :

I think you used to work for TP. Tell me if I'm wrong. Thank you for your support. It is hard to lose your home to outsiders, isn't it?


Tom Whats TP?? Lets see I used to be a vet tech and a firefighter for Tulare County CDF. So I am not sure what you mean. But I have grown up in this Valley and I have seen lots of changes.
Nice to see another local Bee K on these boards.

Angi

[tecumseh]

john and sheri k ask:
Is this based on percentage of the crop? How do they determine price?

tecumseh replies:
the two california beeks rent out the hives themselves. you whould suspect that they are fairly on top of the local situation... price and good vs bad locations. from the description given to me, the california beeks pays for shipping to and from californa and any 'crop' they collect after the almonds and before the hives are shipped back to north dakota belongs entirely to the california beeks. I think the figure given to me was the hive's owner received about $75 per hive and his only expense was one trip to california (certainly a great imposition for a north dakota beek in January, don't you think?) to check on the hives.

then john and sheri k writes:
Are you seriously suggesting that price should be based on the cost of the service rather than supply/demand? Who would determine your "legitimate price" and based on whose cost? Should we be allowed a profit? And what would determine a "legitimate" profit?

tecumseh suggest: profits is one of those terms that really doesn't exist in supply and demand analysis. return to owners equity and management is pretty close to an approximate term. casually looking about here (at the local pollination) I would suspect that 'death loss' would be difficult to predict.

the john and sheri k write:
Basic supply/demand drives the pollination market. When there was a shortage of bees a couple years ago it was the growers bidding up the price, not the beekeepers making demands. The growers were competing for a diminished supply.

tecumseh chimes in: Keynes suggest that our economy was demand driven... which sounds like what you are describing here. an attractive price for a product encourges the producer to bring more to the market place in the next time period. a less that desirable price encourages the producer to provide less (also lagged one time period).

[Tom G. Laury]

Hi Angi:

TP is the name of a Hanford beekeeper who once had a lady named Angi working for him of whom he spoke highly. Thought that might be you. My shop is right on Hwy 41 just N of Adams ave. ( Easton ). On East side, watch for orange orchard & bee boxes. Stop by some time!
Tom

[Billy Y.]

I think I would feel terrible too if I had to live in Kalifornia. :)

Can you imagine, how would you like it; if most of the managed bee colonies in North America were coming to your home county in a few months, their owners too, competing for pasture, open space, and pollination income? Gold Rush for sure! California! Fields of nuggets, just waiting to be unearthed!