Again, a little knowledge, and bad info for the public

[Jeffrey Todd]

I could not believe what I was seeing when I saw this newscast. A swarm of bees, nice and normal looking in every respect, being gathered up by a beekeeper (or perhaps a "bee-haver") and labeled, "probably Africanized". And even if they were Africanized, why does the female beekeeper want to take them back to her beeyard to raise more AHB? Totally irresponsible and incorrect.

http://www.myfoxaustin.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=119C5F4886672B7381714B47F14C464B ?contentId=6656616&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

Who can blame the media for fear-mongering when we have this type of representation amongst us?

[odfrank]

I don't see what outrages you about this clip.

[Jeffrey Todd]

It's not outrage, odfrank. It is disbelief and frustration because bees are being given an undeserved sinister reputation, by fellow beekeepers, no less. There is enough public fear out there already without it being stoked in this manner.

[hankdog1]

I thought the only way to know for sure if they were AHB was to have it tested at a lab.

[odfrank]

I viewed it again and she said nothing sinister. I agree that a swarm of bees on the sidewalk outside is not the best place for them. She said "probably" africanized, and had a nice bee vac, maybe more than a "beehaver".

[Jeffrey Todd]

No, odfrank, she did not say anything sinister, and I never said that she did. And yes, she does have a nice bee-vac.
I have no interest in turning this into a tailgater-style debate and will leave it at that.

[iddee]

Did you say "NICE" bee vac. Unless there's more to it than I seen, I'm betting she killed every bee there. I seen no ventilation at all.

edited..........My boo-boo. I didn't see the box the first time, only the vac. I thought it was being used direct. I see the difference now.

[odfrank]

I just assumed it was fancy commercial bee vac. He is vacuuming carefully, maybe has some kind of insert in the yellow bucket? I believe everything I see on TV and the internet. :D

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

Oh My! I just cut out bees from a fallen Oak, the bees had been living in the hollowed out base... near and under the ground!!! They were probably africanized:eek:
Unfortunatly we couldn't get our Bee-Vac working...

If the bees were gentle enough to work w/o protection, that indicates that they had not started making their home yet, meaning... that the bees, if left alone, would probably leave in a few hours. Therefore I don't think "what's her name" should have concluded they were probably africanized because they were clusting in the ground, and then go publicly announce that the bees were probably killer bees (a term I discourage fellow beeks to use, especially to the media!).

If they really were africanized, I hope the Vac did kill them, and I don't think the beek should entertain thoughts about keeping them.

Maybe I'm just ignorent... any experience Texas beeks want to chime in?

-Nathanael:cool:

[BULLSEYE BILL]

What I find rare is that the commentator had a bit more sense than the reporter or the "keeper". He said they seemed to be pretty calm for africanized bees, he clearly didn't think they were. Well, no stuff.

Perhaps the 'keeper' had some stock in sensationalizing the bees and making them out to be ahb, perhaps a larger paycheck?

I find the reporters screw up all the information you give them. You try to educate them and then they go and tell their story with wrong information. Like last week when they wanted to interview me because ahb was found just 60 miles from our city and the Dept of Ag is saying they would be here by the end of summer.

I'm telling them there is no story and I have not seen any when a big swarm flies up and surrounds us. So now they have footage of hiving a gentle swarm and mixing the information and video with ahb. I thought the whole thing turned out poorly.

Well if it doesn't bleed it doesn't lead. If there is no news, make some.

BTW, that bee vac is the one that Brushy Mountain sells.

[Budster]

I think the biggest knowledge problem in the media and in the public on AHB is this. Most people feel that bees are Africanized or European. There are different levels (breeding,genetics) of these bees. Thats why they call them African"ized" honey bees and not African honey bees. The European and Africanized bees cross mate, and certain traits of the africanized bees present themselves at different levels. An example... My great great grandfather had great big ears. Does this mean I, or my children will have great big ears? No, but the trait is in our gene pool. Yes, it could show up in one of my grandchildren, so I, would be considered "big-ear"ized!

I'm not discounting some very hostile africanized swarms or bees, but people need to be aware of genetic traits, and what the "ized" means in africanized. It means, they carry the traits, but are not all-out guaranteed to be a swarm of killer bees.

BTW - Great Great Grandpa's giant ears problem is fiction.

[summer1052]

Well . . .

Supposedly, it's "common knowledge" here in Tejas that *most* feral bee hives are *likely* to be AHB. Um, okay.

What exactly that has to do with a *swarm* which has at least a 50-50 chance of being EHB, I'm not sure. But there you go.

I *have* noticed that anyone who learns I keep bees, immediately chimes in with their NEAR DEATH (small red bump) bee sting experience that must have been caused by AHB because it happened here in Tejas within the last 10 years. Sheesh. :rolleyes:

So for the media and the (mis)information mongers, I offer a quote from Robert A. Heinlein:
I shot an error in the air.
It's still flying -- everywhere.

Summer:)

[staythecourse]

Won't their killer habits be diluted over the population of regular ol' sweet non-killing type bees that are out there? THey have to be getting sweeter over time. Right? When was the last killing that we know about. (Yes, I am saying killing on purpose to get a rise. I think "killer bee" is over the top and not very helpful in describing Africans) But the questions are serious. Thanks

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

Won't their killer habits be diluted over the population of regular ol' sweet non-killing type bees that are out there? THey have to be getting sweeter over time. Right? When was the last killing that we know about. (Yes, I am saying killing on purpose to get a rise. I think "killer bee" is over the top and not very helpful in describing Africans) But the questions are serious. Thanks

There's where the AHBs have an advantage. AHBs produce more dones than your average european, they also kill any non-Africanized drones that happens to wander into their hive, and their queens hatch a little earlier than regular europeans, meaning that if you have a africanized tainted hive the queens with the most africanized traits will hatch first and dominate the colony.

-Nathanael:cool:

[naturebee]

I didn’t see much wrong with what the beekeeper on the video said.

I feel you have a duty to advise persons that know nothing about bees, your best judgment based on your own wealth of experience. If it scares the public, so be it, but err on the side of caution and public safety.

I often will tell onlookers that there is a chance the bees might become defensive.

I tell them to keep pets and children from disturbing the swarm.

I tell them there is a 'chance' they an be Africanized bees, yes, even here in PA with all the movements of bees up and down the eastern states.

I might give them a guesstimate based on my experience, what to do about the swarm. And provide what options they have and what the swarm may do.

I may state:
If you leave the swarm there, IMO:
* There is a good chance it will fly away and you will never see it again.
* There is also a chance it may fly into a void in a structure on your property.
* There is also a chance it may fly into one of your neighbors structures.
* There is also a slight chance it will stay right where it is to build a nest.

This is certainly not meant to scare anyone, it is meant as an advisement based on my experience.

I adopted this procedure of total advisement, after a person I suggested to leave the swarm be and it will fly away, had the swarm fly into their house, and instantly made what would have been a $60.00 swarm removal, a $400.00 extraction, plus repairs.

If you are aware of highly defensive bees in your area, and you neglect to relay that word of caution to bystanders who BTW are not bee suited as you might be, same as in your beeyard, you could be held liable in a lawsuit.

I already told my pest control partners to be wary of the potential for defensive or Africanized bees in our area, and the Bee Department for PA is already developing a Africanized bee plan. So why keep this a secret and risk the publics health for the sake of good press?

Joe

[staythecourse]

There's where the AHBs have an advantage. AHBs produce more dones than your average european, they also kill any non-Africanized drones that happens to wander into their hive, and their queens hatch a little earlier than regular europeans, meaning that if you have a africanized tainted hive the queens with the most africanized traits will hatch first and dominate the colony.

-Nathanael

Thanks. They DO have the upper hand then.

[hummingberd]

you know, this is exactly the kind of garbage that is so unfounded, and just keeps adding to the stress on the beekeeping industry. What is this woman's problem? Maybe she ran out of bees and figured that by scaring the public, she would get all the calls in her neighborhood. After all, who wants to take the risk of bringing home "africanized" bees. As a "beekeeper" she should know better than to jump to conclusions about the breed of bees she was working with. I didn't see that guy wearing any protective clothing, and have a really hard time believing those bees were africanized. When dealing with the public, as educated beekeepers, we have to be intelligent about how we present ourselves and the bees. Claiming that those bees were africanized without any proof, leads quickly to panic and even more fear based on ignorance. That is the worst kind of fear. The damage this may have caused will take a long time to fix...

I think you're right. She seems like a beehaver to me!

[aszalan]

There's where the AHBs have an advantage. AHBs produce more dones than your average european, they also kill any non-Africanized drones that happens to wander into their hive, and their queens hatch a little earlier than regular europeans, meaning that if you have a africanized tainted hive the queens with the most africanized traits will hatch first and dominate the colony.

-Nathanael:cool:

correct, here is some more detailed info about AHB as an invader
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v100/n1/full/6801058a.html

Reproductive biology of scutellata—a proven invader
The reproductive biology of the scutellata-derived 'Africanized honeybee' (hereafter AHB) has been extensively studied in the American neotropics (for an overview and references see Schneider et al., 2004). AHB has been shown to have a strong reproductive advantage over European subspecies.

AHB colonies show a greater emphasis on pollen than nectar collection, and this pollen is rapidly converted into brood. AHB colonies produce more brood per adult worker than other honeybee subspecies, resulting in high growth rates and increased swarm production. Likewise, drone production is high, resulting in a mating advantage of AHB males due to numerical superiority at drone aggregations. Moreover, AHB drones tend to drift into other colonies, thereby suppressing drone production by the host colony. Male migration from AHB colonies into European ones was almost certainly an important factor in the displacement of European subspecies in the Americas.

During queen rearing (prior to swarming or to replace the mother queen), AHB virgin queens may have a competitive advantage in colonies that have both AHB and non-AHB parentage. This advantage arises from AHB virgin queens developing faster than queens of other genotypes. Thus, if a colony has patrilines arising from both scutellata and non-scutellata males, it is more likely that a virgin from a scutellata patriline will inherit the colony because they tend to emerge first and kill their rivals.

[John Gesner]

Couple things bother me about this. First of all, and I could be wrong, but that's a swarm - not an established hive. If it were an established hive, how is this "beekeeper" going to get them out of there with a bee vac? Good luck.

Secondly, if they were AHB, why would you release them into the wild? It's my understanding that AHB swarms need to be erradicated, not relocated.

The lady is well-spoken. Makes her all the more believable, doesn't it?

Kudos to the news anchor. His question about why these "Africanized" bees are so gentle shows that he might actually know something about AHB's. Too bad he couldn't expound on that more.

[RonS]

Jeffrey,

Both of us capture swarms in South Texas. We both know that a majority of these swarms are likely F1 or worse hybrids. I disagree with the Beek that indicated because the bees were near the ground, they were likely AHB; but I see her point. Swarms are usually not very defensive, either EHB or AHB. Let them build a couple of cells and that changes dramatically. Many Beeks around here will capture a swarm, hive them, determine if hot or not, then re-queen as necessary. I have been averaging a couple of calls a week asking for removals, and some swarms. Just had one for a swarm last Thursday and a hive today. I tell the callers about the same thing each time. If a swarm, I let them know that it will likely move on in a day or so, but could locate nearby. If a hive (cutout), I warn of the problems associated with removals, danger to neighbors, and expense. Then I refer them to pest control specialists. If anyone around San Antonio wants me to refer these calls to them, PM me.

[Gene Weitzel]

A couple of recent studies have indicated that in some areas AHB do not seem to have as big of an advantage over the EHB. I quote from Feral honey bees in pine forest landscapes of East Texas (Coulson, etal 2005):

"The honey bee mitotype diversity we observed in
pineywoods ecoregion mirrors that reported by Pinto
et al. (2004) in the adjacent coastal prairie ecoregion
of TX. However, the environmental conditions for
these two ecoregions are quite different. The coastal
prairie provides ideal habitat for honey bees: cavity
sites are plentiful in live oak mottes and in the
deciduous trees that border stream corridors, high
diversity of flowering plant species provides ample
nectar and pollen, and water sources are reliable and
widespread (Baum, 2003; Baum et al., 2004). In a
representative landscape of the coastal prairie ecoregion,
Baum (2003) reported a density of 12.5 colonies/
km2, the highest ever observed for feral honey
bees. By contrast the pineywoods ecoregion is
depauparate of essential resources and in this
environment the adaptive attributes of A. m. scutellata,
which favor colonization of new habitats, could lead to
the displacement of European mitotypes. However, we
found that in this conifer-dominated forest environment,
sparse in honey bee food and habitat resources,
all the mitotype diversity that could be present, based
on previous introductions, was represented.
The conclusions that follow from this part of the
investigation of feral honey bee races are: (i) honey
bees are a ubiquitous component of the pine forest
landscape in east Texas, (ii) mitotype diversity persists
in the presence of immigration of A. m. scutellata, and
(iii) A. m. scutellata is an added element of the
mitotype diversity in the landscape." (bold added for emphasis)

They claim their study mirrors what was found previously in a study done of the Texas coastal prairie by Pinto etal. The particulars of the studies seem to support that AHB represent about 40% of the feral population and the combination of Eastern European and Western European honey bees are competing well with them in these areas. As such AHB's seem to be adding to the mitotype diversity of these areas instead of replacing it as they have done in other areas further west.

I think it would be prudent for anyone who keeps bees in AHB territory to seek out this type of information. I would especially want to know it before making any blanket statements about a swarm such as "probably AHB". Knowing this information helps make a more informed "guess" about their possible genetics. Particularly in my area if I were basing it on the fact that the swarm was low to the ground. I have hived several swarms this year from just such "low to the ground" circumstances and in both cases when I later inspected the hives, the queens were large and yellow and obviously of mostly Italian genetics, but both had a large chip in a wing that prevented them from flying very high. Neither has shown any AHB characteristics what so ever. In my experience, for the most part, the "low to the ground" thing is not an accurate swarm assessment characteristic. I look mostly at swarm size and timing. For established colonies, I pay close attention to defensiveness and cavity characteristics for a clue (here low or in the ground can be very telling). In the end the only real way to know is to send some bees in for analysis. The few that I have sent in have tested EHB. So far 100% of my attempts at re-queening the hotter colonies I have come across with domestic stock have been successful, so at this point I am dubious as to the degree of africanization in my immediate area since I have not experienced the extreme difficulties that have been documented in attempting to re-queen a highly africanized colony. I have had much more difficulty re-queening Russians (even with Russian queens) than any of my ferals (this includes ferals from counties that have been considered africanized since the early 90's). Of course it could also mean that I have been lucky and not yet come across an AHB swarm or colony in the numerous swarm retrievals and colony removals I have done over the last two years, but if the 40% AHB feral population number from the study is to be believed, that does not seem too likely.

I can't stress it enough though that my experience may not be applicable to folks in other areas. Hopefully there are studies that have been done or are now being done that can provide this type of information to those of you who reside in those areas now actively experiencing the "AHB migration phenomenon".

[Jeffrey Todd]

Hi Ron, Joe, and all,

In the past several years I have removed probably 15 swarms and 35 or 40 established colonies from the Austin and surrounding areas (where this news story took place). Of those, only two showed excessively defensive characteristics (which did turn out to be Africanized); Several of the colonies I removed were living in below ground structures and each of them were as gentle as any stock I have.
In addition, I have fielded at least 150 additional calls for bee removals involving colonies that were established but had not been giving anyone any problems. None of the rescued cut-outs that I have done have subsequently turned mean, even though most have since raised queens on their own. Based on my experience, then, it seems that most of the swarms or colonies in this immediate area are NOT Africanized at this time.

Much of the public already has a lot of misconceptions and fears regarding bees and many local governing bodies have rules or laws restricting beekeeping. I have no wish to see beekeeping further restricted as a reaction to a unsubstantiated or unfounded statements made by someone who is regarded as a expert.

Naturally, I warn all of my customers about all the attendant dangers of bee colonies and cut-outs, but that is far different from going in front of a camera and announcing that you are removing a swarm that is probably Africanized and will now take it back to live and grow in a local beeyard.

Note: Excellent post, Gene. You were posting yours right as I was doing mine.
And Bullseye, you are right; the fact that the commentator didn't think the bees were too bad was nice to see.

[Gene Weitzel]

.... I have fielded at least 150 additional calls for bee removals involving colonies that were established but had not been giving anyone any problems.....

This has been by and large my experience as well. I did receive one call from some folks wanting to "give" me some bees that had taken up residence in an old steel drum on their land. When they told me that they could not even get 50 - 100 feet from them without being attacked, I declined their "gift" and told them to call an exterminator. After thinking about that, I think that when we quote our removal statistics, maybe we should not weigh them too heavily as being counter to the evidence presented in the studies. It could just be that most people are not stupid and would pretty much expect that if the colony was "really aggressive and giving them a lot of problems" that a beekeeper would likely not be interested in them and they call an exterminator instead. We would need to know the statistics related to this type of scenario in order to evaluate the whole picture.

It would seem then that swarms would be a better guide, however, that too could be skewed too heavily toward AHB's since they swarm at a much more frequent rate than EHB's (an area with 1 AHB colony that throws 7 swarms per year and 7 EHB colonies that each throw 1 swarm per year would erroneously indicate 50% AHB population based on swarm statistics). AHB swarm counts would need to be "adjusted" to take that into account.

[NeilV]

I started another AHB thread that shows my own ignorance but I won't let that stop me. ;)

It seems to me that killing every swarm that might be AHB (which really woud include every swarm in AHB-land) is over the top. Also, if AHB are more fit for a particular habitat than EHB, then the AHB will win out in a short time anyway. Think of how much effort goes into killing roaches, but there's still plenty of them because they can thrive in the normal environment. There will be nowhere near that amount of effort trying to kill AHB. If AHB are fit for a locale, they'll spread. If they are clearly more fit than EHB, they will take over. I know we'd like to think that beekeepers are in control of the genetics of feral bees, but they just aren't.

However, it seems to me that beekeepers have a duty to kill hives that are so overly aggressive as to pose a hazard. And that's true whether you know the genetics of the hive are AHB, EHB or somewhere in between. Seems to me that it is also in everybody's best interest to help promote any hives (even those who show AHB behaviors) that are reasonably well-behaved. If an area is going to go over to being purely AHB it will happen matter what we beekeepers do. At least beekeepers could help along those AHB or AHB hybrids that are safe to be around.

I don't think the beek on the tape looks like a beehaver or that anything she said was out of line.

ndvan