Advice on Welders

[Troutsqueezer]

I seem to recall there are quite a few welders hanging around these forums so figured this might be a good place to get some input on which type of welder might be best to suit my needs.

In addition to beekeeping, I am about to take on another hobby, that of building metal sculptures, specifically, building rolling ball sculptures. You've all seen them; a metal ball or large marble is lifted to the top of a roller coaster-like assembly and through gravity, rolls, bounces, flies and seesaws its way down to the bottom and then lifted again to the top to repeat the process. There are many of these Rube Goldberg-type videos on YouTube. What attracts me to this are the challenges in figuring out the physics necessary for the design and construction of such a device.

First on the learning curve is the welding process. I've done a lot of reading on the net but am still unsure of which setup to go with, especially considering the unusual nature of the metal structures. I plan on welding a lot of 1/8 to 3/16 diameter mild steel and later stainless steel rods together. There will be some larger pieces to weld such as the lift motor mounts, the frame to which all the rods/tracks attach to and also the attachment of various nuts and bolts which act as counterweights on certain elements.

I've thought about a small oxy-acetylene setup, perhaps with a jeweler's torch but one thing about that is it might be a pain to fire up every time I make a small weld. I'm thinking with this type of construction, you spend a lot of time setting up the weld, quickly making the weld, then back to setting up the next weld. Seems like MIG would be easier where you only have to click the trigger.

Other things to consider:

Much of the activity will be in my shed so ventilation and toxic gases might be an issue.

The shed floor is wood but I'm guessing the sparks won't be as heavy as when welding farm equipment or similar so I could do some kind of containment and keep the fire extinguisher close at hand.

Clean welding joints would be nice, with minimum spatter so if I go with MIG, I should go fluxless?

I hear TIG is nice, but expensive.

Basically, the crux of this post is; which type of welder would do the best job of welding the tracks and other smallish features on a rolling ball sculpture?

Would it be best to buy both a gas setup and a MIG? I've heard it's best to learn on gas then move to MIG but I'm a fast learner.

BTW, brazing, while it looks nice, may be out of the question since I am looking to build museum-quality sculptures which will run multiple balls 24/7.

My budget for all welding-related equipment - table, clamps, rods, helmet, etc. is somewhere around $800 -$900.

Thanks for any advice.

[Keith Jarrett]

TQ,

I used to be a welder a few years back when I was in school.

Mig (short arc outer shielded) flux core (FC) (inter shield with flux)

The too very close, both .035 wire feed, mig has no flux, but needs argone gas 80/20 mix, must to be a clean metals surface & no windy conditions.

Flux core, will weld painted or rusty metals better, but it does have flux to chip off.

Both do a good job, Both can be 110/220 volt. I use a flux core wire machine.

Your gas welder does has a few options, weld, braze & cutting torch, and if you need to bend steel you can hook up the rose bud.

There are also small plasma ( air arc) cutter that do a nice clean job too. Good luck

[dragonfly]

How about a little MIG welder? You can buy one at your local big box store, and if it's mostly small projects and artsy stuff, that should do a nice job. We have a Lincoln cracker box, but we use it for welding stuff like cee purlin to square tubing or receiver channel. Lots of clean-up and grinding to do when you go that route.
What kind of stuff are you going to make?

Edited to add: OOPS, I read your post more thoroughly after I posted, and I thought you guys were talking TIG. Sorry. MIG's probably the better route to go for your purposes.

[PCM]

I won't comment on welder type " I'm a old Lincoln Chrysler powered Pipeline Welder user "

BUT WOOD FLOOR, fellow a spark, is a spark,is a spark !! After every strike you better pull your helmet and search under,around, and in back .

PCM

[Troutsqueezer]

Home Depot does have a 3200HD Lincoln MIG for $479 I've been looking at. If I decide I need Argon, I can buy a tank for that model, plus it is 120V, another advantage.

I doubt a spark by itself would ignite the wood floor, but certainly a chunk of smoldering metal would. I thought perhaps constructing a table with three small walls made from cement backer board could constrain the sparks to one direction at least.

I wouldn't mind chipping flux off so that wouldn't be a showstopper.

Dragonfly, you surprise me, you handyperson you. Do you do the actual welding yourself or are you the helper?

[mistergil]

Your budget is too low :-(

Start with a small DC welder like a Lincoln K1297 AC/DC 225/125, Century or similar. 125 amps DC will get you running 1/8 inch rods and the beginnings of a small TIG setup. With DC rods you will have the versatility to run stainless, mild steel, T1 etc.and they will be fairly clean with less splatter than an AC rig. Using the same unit you can add a Tig torch if you add Argon gas.This setup with the DC unit, a small grinder, tungsten tips, collets, cups etc. will run you at least a grand. Gas requires flow meters and gauges with valves as well.

A small Mapp or Acetylene torch set up will give you a better variety of metal working, cutting and welding/brazing functions but a good one may set you back 600$; likley you will find it a necessity.

Mig has potential but you will be locked into the equipment and repair items are costly. Tips, liners and nozzles are not cheap. Tips and liners will need interchanged if you alter wire sizes. Roller wheels and adjustments can be problematic on the cheaper units.

The Lincoln DC 125 will set you back 500-600$ but you would be able to start right away. A Tig set up will give you the ability to perform fine delicate welds which are very clean. Fluxcore, innershield and many sticks are very dirty and have a lot of splatter. Mig is cleaner but splatters as well, Tig is the best.

[iddee]

I haven't seen where anyone mentioned reverse polarity. For thin metals and tiny welds, I would make that a mandatory item on any welder chosen.

[mistergil]

It's a non issue with DC.

[peggjam]

I have a Hobart 175 mig, an I can gobb weld with the best of them. Nice little machine 220v at a reasonable price. I use flux cored wire so I don't need shielding gas. Wood floors and welding is a no-no. Maybe you could build a cubicle that would shelter your welding activity on all sides, especailly the floor:).

[KQ6AR]

I use a lincoln 220V mig. Its a pretty good machine. I have to switch polarity if I go from mig to flux core wire.

Dan

[dragonfly]

Dragonfly, you surprise me, you handyperson you. Do you do the actual welding yourself or are you the helper?

I cut it, he welds it.;) I tried welding, but didn't like it. The way the stick "sticks" to the metal creeps me out, and not much can do that.;)

Hey man, where ya been? I've missed you posting around here:)

[Troutsqueezer]

I see Home Depot has the Lincoln K1297 for $389 which is $100 cheaper than the MIG I was looking at. Mistergil, you may be on to something there. If I put off buying a gas welder for awhile perhaps this setup would work and meet my budget as well, for now at least. The only thing is I would have to run some 220v out to the shed. Oh well, that'll be the third time I tap into the water well circuit box to get some power to the sheds. :)

"Globbing" the weld together sounds kinda bad for what is supposed to be a smooth wire track for the balls to run on. Is that a side effect of MIG or does practice make perfect?

Dragonfly, I've scaled down my posts on Beesource so that I could better balance my free time and do some of those things I've been hankerin' to do for some time now. It got to the point where the posting was eating up too much time. To make a good post actually takes quite a bit of time as many here can attest. Perhaps when I retire in 3 years, 10 months, 7 days and 16 hours, I'll have more time to post.

[tecumseh]

troutsqueezer writes:
Home Depot does have a 3200HD Lincoln MIG for $479 I've been looking at. If I decide I need Argon

tecumseh replies:
well first off... get a manly machine troutsqueezer... not one of those girly welder that will not fry a large rod and very quickly....

well to correct a misconception troutsqueezer argon gas is used for stainless steel and typically co2 is used for mild steel in a mig machine. sounds like to me a mig is the way you would desire to go (they are great for tacking up stuff but are not so great for structural welds). no matter what machine you might choose... there is a small metal tag on all welders and one line will quite plainly say Duty Cycle (this represents the percentage of time the machine should be working) and the price tag will generally reflect greater quality in the machine the higher the duty cycle number.... 10 percent is typical in the ceaper machines and 100 percent represent a commercial duty machine.

hope that helps...

ps I got a very good mig and tig machine for sale but neither are cheap...

[peggjam]

""Globbing" the weld together sounds kinda bad for what is supposed to be a smooth wire track for the balls to run on. Is that a side effect of MIG or does practice make perfect?"

This is one of those things that take practice. Globb welding is ok, but don't look real pretty:D, and requires some grinding to make the weld look nice. But nice doesn't matter to me as much as holding power.:)

[tecumseh]

some writes:
Globbing" the weld together sounds kinda bad

tecumseh replies: globbing (also call hemroid welding) will get you fired in ever the lowest quality shop and a F if you had ever taken welding in a shop class from tecumseh. globbing not only looks bad (UGLY) it is bad... at least if you consider welds that WILL fail as bad?

to continue troutsqueezer... a mig represent the easiest (learning curve) machine to use (although you will need to learn to set two dials properly). we use to say that if you can pee you can operate a mig (and when properly set a mig will sound quite a bit like someone peeing on a rock).

if you desired to go a bit cheaper with a buzz box (cracker box welder) then get one of those with a n ac/dc swith and start off with say 7014 rods. these are called drag rods which means you don't need to maintain an arc to achieve a good weld pattern. you simply drag these (slowly for sure) across the weld area. stainless rods (require a bit more skill) can also be purchased for sticking together stainless with a cracker box. if you were sticking together a bit of aluminum this would be where a mig would function very well and a cracker box would not.

[dragonfly]

Perhaps when I retire in 3 years, 10 months, 7 days and 16 hours, I'll have more time to post.

:D :D :D
Counting the hours, eh?

[Troutsqueezer]

I did catch the duty cycle numbers listed on the machines for sure and figured low cycle times wouldn't be a problem with this type of welding where setup will no doubt take most of the time.

But I'm still a little fuzzy on what would be best. I'm a manly-man by nature, confident in my manhood, so having something that will weld cranes together so they don't fall on apartment buildings is not something I necessarily want. Rolling ball sculptures are fairly delicate things. With a DC buzz box, the welding rod would be about the same size as the track I'm trying to weld. Wonder if that is a problem.

Maybe a different approach, keeping in mind there are marketplaces like Craigslist where bargains are to be had; if money were no object, what type of machine would weld 1/8 inch stainless steel (or mild steel) wire/rods/tracks together and give the smoothest and cleanest result? Plus the occasional butt/beveled joint for small brackets? A $2k TIG?

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and try something to get some first hand experience. It's the ol' 'analysis-paralysis' syndrome, don't want to fall into that.

>counting the hours, eh?
Dragonfly, I work in a place where RCG's (recent college graduates) are brought in daily to staff the various high tech engineering departments. At my age, I'm doing good to remember where I file stuff for later reference much less remembering the specifics of what it is I filed. I see the writing on the wall and it's telling me it's almost time to move over (or out) and let the "sparkies" run the show. Us old folks here call them sparkies because they run and jump around, all excited and full of vigor. As for me, my plantar faciitus is kicking in again.....

[mistergil]

Tig is what you want. From welding without filler material (common on thin stainless work) to larger filler material rods or inserts (common on critical piping joints) heliarc is the superior technique and is required for some xray quality welding as the final result is very pure with no foreign inclusions, or splatter. It is fairly easy to master as it is delicate and somewhat forgiving. Argon is the sole gas used for stainless as well as steel and aluminum. A DC welder of at least 100 amps with good amperage control, a Tig torch (90-100$), and gas setup will get you started. Later a high frequency unit can be added with a foot pedal to enhance versatility but is not required to start. You still always will have some stick capability as well with a DC machine around and high quality stick welds are possible if you upgrade to something like Eutectic brand rods. Cast iron is also possible.

Anything done with Mig can be done with Tig only slower and Tig is the only choice for precision work.

[Keith Jarrett]

TQ,

If you would like you can come by and try my machice out, flux core wire feed.
I'm at the other end of Latrobe rd, about 40 min from your place.:)

[dragonfly]

At my age, I'm doing good to remember where I file stuff for later reference much less remembering the specifics of what it is I filed.

Heck, I'm younger than you and can already identify with that. I abhor it when I walk somewhere to do something, then by the time I get there, I have completely forgotten what I went there for. So I have learned that if I walk back to my starting point, it will jar my memory. OTOH, that may be a good thing ;)



As for me, my plantar faciitus is kicking in again.....

Is that the condition where when you awaken in the morning, and try to walk, you feel like your achilles tendons just may just snap into two pieces? I got it too;)

[tecumseh]

troutssqueezer ask:
With a DC buzz box, the welding rod would be about the same size as the track I'm trying to weld. Wonder if that is a problem.

tecumseh: you can buy sticks in about half a dozen sizes (diameters) and just about any composition you might desire.

then troutsqueezer writes:
A $2k TIG?

tecumseh: got a nice miller in the box troutsqueezer. a good used 250 miller sycrowave tig machine would likely cost you about that. the add on might whup that pocket book pretty bad however. it is basically just a big HEAVY buzz box type machine and you can also use it to stick weld. thats how I've got mine set up now. now that will burn some manly rods.

[Troutsqueezer]

Thanks everybody for the inputs. That's more information I've gotten in one place than all the other sites put together.

Thanks also for the offer Keith. I may take you up on that. For now, I'm adding a room onto one of my sheds to make way for this new hobby and that will take a couple of months to finish. Then I will jump in with both feet. Latrobe Rd. eh? I've been to many a party down there by the river when I was a young'un and I'll bet you have too. That's the first place I ever got drunk! Ha.

I've suspected TIG was ultimately the way to go but dang, I was hoping cheaper. I've also heard that Miller is a very good brand. Say, you wouldn't want to trade a bee hive for your welder, would'ja tecumseh? How about some honey bears?

I'll check Craigslist daily and see if anything used in good condition pops up there. Most of what I've seen advertised so far looks like its been thru the wringer. I want the one that was owned by a little ol' lady. :)

[KQ6AR]

My lincoln mig was about $300. & will do thin steel.
Some thin metals are easily braised with an oxy acetiline torch

[Troutsqueezer]

According to the advertisement, this TIG welder by Lincoln for only $685, weighing in at 15 lbs is supposed to keep up with the big boys.
http://harrisweldingsupplies.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=639

Naturally, I have a hard time believing that but this guy gives it a pretty good review. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=21633

What am I missing? Where's the trade off with this price and size? Remember, I'm not looking to weld the Brooklyn Bridge. The weld pics look pretty nice.

[mistergil]

For what you want to do it's a good deal, Tig plus stick. 155 DC amps is plenty to do many jobs. If you do buy one, get plenty of spare parts for the Tig torch as some of the items are somewhat easy to break, nozzles are ceramic (welders are known to throw them at the wall occasionally), collets are easily fried and melted when the tips are stuck fast for a few seconds too long. These inverter power packs are much in use nowadays so don't let the lightweight fool you. Also, remember you will need a small bench grinder with a fairly fine wheel to grind the tungstens to a point. Lincoln makes good equipment.