Small cell Limitations?

[Screwtop]

Hi,
We are just back from the Bee Symposium in Young Harris Georgia and are dying to get started.

We have lined up a beesupplier and are looking at hives.

We would like to go small cell but are worried about limitations. Will we only be able to use "small cell bees" and queens? Will we be able to put swarms of other bees into small-cell foundations?

Thanks,
Dawn and Curtis (Washington, GA)

[Dearth Vader]

You can use small cell for any type of honey bee....SC is closer to feral comb size.
Dearth

[Joseph Clemens]

Limitations?> A wide range of honeycomb cell sizes is used by Apis mellifera. There are natural size ranges used for worker, drone, and storage. Queen cells are an entirely different issue. Small cell honeycomb can be used by any strain of Apis mellifera. I do not know if the same honeycomb could be used interchangeably with other species of honeybee, such as Apis cerana, Apis dorsata, or Apis florea.

[beemandan]

....SC is closer to feral comb size.
Dearth

I would surely disagree with that.

Screwtop, I'd highly recommend that you begin with traditional foundation. Get a couple of seasons under your belt, then look at the small cell. It frequently isn't as simple as many would have you believe.
By the way, it is awfully late in the season to be starting a new hive in this area. Just a few more weeks and our nectar flow will slow. At that point its going to be very hard to get the girls to draw out any comb.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do.

[Michael Bush]

>Will we only be able to use "small cell bees" and queens?

If you have small cell drawn comb you can put any bees or any queens on it and they will use it fine.

If you put large cell bees on small cell foundation, they will be one step closer to small cell. If you intend to end up on small cell, I would DEFINITELY start with small cell or at least natural cell (foundationless). Otherwise you are starting off one step behind. I've had no problems putting packages on small cell wax or on Mann Lake PF120s or PF100s. There is a bit of a lag getting started on the Honey Super Cell, but they catch back up after they accept it.

> Will we be able to put swarms of other bees into small-cell foundations?

Yes.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#HowToRegress

[dickm]

In the many years small cell has been around no one has "proven" it better in a scientific way. Jennifer Berry at UGA did a small study last year and found no difference. Another study is on going in FL. The best we have is "it works for me." I used it for a number of years. It won't hurt but you may get bees that draw out the foundation in a variety of sizes. You would get this with foundationless frames as well. Better to do as Beemandan say and start without the added complexity.

Dickm

[JaiPea]

> I'd highly recommend that you begin with traditional foundation.

Does your definition of traditional include plastic foundation/frames?

> .....and start without the added complexity.

What added complexity?

Screwtop wants bees and he likes the idea of small cell. The market offers him a choice of small cell wax foundation, small cell plastic foundation, and fully formed plastic small cell frames.

We all know that acceptance is as listed above so he would have an easier time starting with wax but that's got nothing to do with the size of cell.

What do you guys see about small cell that will make learning about bees harder for Screwtop than using any other cell size?

[naturebee]

>
What do you guys see about small cell that will make learning about bees harder for Screwtop than using any other cell size?

Basically, I don’t see that it will be any to learn about bees using smaller cell sizes. I think it is actually beneficial to the learning process because the use of small cell (as the proponents are teaching it tied together with organic methodry), necessitates that a beginner pay more attention to details occurring within the colony, and learn manipulations and procedures required to maintain colonies without the use of treatments,,, and this is greatly beneficial to the “learning about bees”.

IMO, any system of keeping bees which relies on the treating bees with pesticides and antibiotics to keep them alive, can hinder the development of keen observational abilities, and learning bee biology. It can basically eliminate the need for close examination, the learning about bee biology, and interpreting the cause of stresses within a colony. And thus, can retard the learning curve.

A word of advice.
You have to remember one thing if you decide to go with smaller cell sizes.
You have to remember to forget about what others taught you concerning using pesticides and other crutches on bees.
You remember ‘how to forget’ don’t you? ;)

Best Wishes,
Joe
Pennsylvania
FeralBeeProject.com

[beemandan]

What added complexity?
What do you guys see about small cell that will make learning about bees harder for Screwtop than using any other cell size?

Lets see. For one, many bees will not draw out wax foundation small cell without making a huge mess. Sometimes they seem to do OK except for a sizeable amount of drone cells. If that number of drone cells exceeds 10% then those frames should be culled or you defeat the purported purpose of small cell. Will an inexperienced beekeeper know which to cull and which to leave? Or even to cull any?

I've had queens that refused to lay in small cell. Even when it was already drawn.

I've had fully 'regressed' bees that one season seemed to draw out sc comb in fine fashion only to 'forget' the next season and make an absolute mess.

The only brood diseased colonies I've had in years were in my sc hives.

Small cell is NOT natural. It is just another stress on the colony. I believe that if Dee Lusby had come along with her sc idea following the tracheal mite collapse then there would have been a load of 'followers' who would have insisted that small cell was the cure for tracheal mites. While everyone else knows it was genetics.

When I began 'regressing' my bees the sc crowd was telling everyone....
'Just put your packages on sc foundation and don't treat.'

Now they're saying that it'll take years for your bees to 'learn' whatever behavior it is that makes it all work. The very suggestion that one can alter something that has taken tens of thousands of years to evolve in a few years is ridiculous.

And heaven help you if you are anywhere near bees that aren't small cell. Those mites are mysteriously drawn to sc hives...like flys to you know what.

Is that complex enough?


JaiPea, there are a sizeable number of traditional cell beekeepers who don't treat and are successful. The sc crowd insists that its impossible but I know its true.....for a fact. I refuse to engage in another endless debate about all of this. Time is too precious to waste.

I've already wasted a ton of time and money converting to sc and am now spending a similar amount of time and money culling EVERY sc frame in my hives. It'll take a couple of seasons.

As I said in an earlier post I still have about 50 or so sheets of sc foundation and 30 or so sheets of 5.1 left over from this fiasco. As soon as the weather warms a bit I'm going to feed them to my wax melter.....unless Screwtop wants to stop by and take them. They're his for free if he really wants to embark on this path.

[odfrank]

Lets see. For one, ......

All you say are my sentiments exactly. The new Lusby videos are the final straw that all this SC hocus pocus comes from a very dubious source. Not only are the bees utterly vicious, the manipulations they are doing are what???
I have also tried for over five years and have seen no advantages, only failures with small cell, after 35 years of successes with LC.
Don't waste your time and money, you would be better off joining a another cult or wife swapping church in Texas. ;)

[chinitoe]

i think he's already learning from this forum/thread and already knows what to expect with goin in smallcell. thanks to you guys. i started with LC with 10 hives, after 6 months of reading this forum and about SC, i started the convertion to SC. IMO, it would be better to start directly to SC. the longer you are with LC, it becomes more difficult to change to SC.

[LtlWilli]

Wife swapping church in Texas?...EGADS!!! It is a good thing that Texas is the only state known for such abominations. :(

[JaiPea]

Beemandan,

It is useful to read a criticism based on experience rather than opinion.

I can understand why your travails have soured you on small cell.


Thanks

[Michael Bush]

>Lets see. For one, many bees will not draw out wax foundation small cell without making a huge mess.

As opposed to what they do with typical plastic foundation?

> Sometimes they seem to do OK except for a sizeable amount of drone cells. If that number of drone cells exceeds 10% then those frames should be culled or you defeat the purported purpose of small cell.

I never cull drone comb. I'd say in some hives it runs 20%, but in all of them it's probably 15%. Dr. Collison's research says, in the end, they will raise the same number of drones no matter what percent it is.

> Will an inexperienced beekeeper know which to cull and which to leave? Or even to cull any?

I recommend not culling any.

>I've had queens that refused to lay in small cell. Even when it was already drawn.

I've seen it once. She was a very fat queen and was quickly superseded.

>Small cell is NOT natural. It is just another stress on the colony.

Natural cell, on the other hand...

> I believe that if Dee Lusby had come along with her sc idea following the tracheal mite collapse then there would have been a load of 'followers' who would have insisted that small cell was the cure for tracheal mites.

She DID come up with it following the tracheal mite collapse and used it for that purpose back in the 80s.

>While everyone else knows it was genetics.

AHB? In Arizona? In the 80s?

[beemandan]

>As opposed to what they do with typical plastic foundation?

Mine do quite well on properly coated plastic.

>I never cull drone comb. I'd say in some hives it runs 20%, but in all of them it's probably 15%. Dr. Collison's research says, in the end, they will raise the same number of drones no matter what percent it is.

Dee Lusby is clear on 10%. Many of my sc frames were much higher.

>I recommend not culling any.

You and Dee aren’t on the same page here.

>>I've had queens that refused to lay in small cell. Even when it was already drawn.

>I've seen it once. She was a very fat queen and was quickly superseded.

I’ve seen it a number of times. Some of them are still busily laying this spring in regular cells.

>>Small cell is NOT natural. It is just another stress on the colony.

>Natural cell, on the other hand...
Consistanly larger than 4.9mm in this area. Median around 5.2

>She DID come up with it following the tracheal mite collapse and used it for that purpose back in the 80s.

There it is folks. SC cured the tracheal mite epidemic too. Funny how mine seem to do well on regular cells.

>AHB? In Arizona? In the 80s?

Who mentioned AHB??????

I really don’t mind if a bunch of experienced beekeepers want to engage in this fantasy but I really hate it when they attempt to convince newcomers that its so easy to do and assure them of wonderful results. I wouldn’t want to imagine how many new beekeepers have become frustrated by this and abandoned the hobby…..needlessly.
__________________

[Michael Bush]

>Dee Lusby is clear on 10%. Many of my sc frames were much higher.

Yes she is.

>>I recommend not culling any.
>You and Dee aren’t on the same page here.

No, we are not.

[beemandan]

>Dee Lusby is clear on 10%.
Yes she is.

>>I recommend not culling any.
>You and Dee aren’t on the same page here.

No, we are not.

This is interesting. This is one place that Dee and I are in agreement; not only for small cell but for regular cell as well. It would probably be a good subject for a new thread.

[Erik T]

Hi Dawn and Curtis,

First off welcome aboard! Ask 10 beekeepers a question and get 12 different answers :p ....

As far as small cell limitations go, the girls will rework the wax and/or foundation to met their needs, worker, drone, storage, etc. It should be said, they can't rework plastic foundation. If the bees aren't already regressed to small cell, they may draw the comb out funny. I didn't encounter this problem with mine.

I do not think putting them on small cell will cause any more complications than you're already going to have being a new beek.

As far as starting them at this point in time, it should be ok if they are nuc's or an established hive. To get them established, you're going to have to feed them.

Good luck and again welcome aboard!

[IndianaHoney]

I'm not a advocate for small cell at all. Personally I think that what is a median in one area, may be very differnent in another area. The Lunsbys also stated this. For this reason, I would never buy sc foundation. However, I am a fan of natural cell sizes, and find that the bees build combs that are more even, and neat. Last year I made some spits. I put the frames that I used from the splits on the outsides, and put foundationless frames in the middle. The combs are the best combs I have ever seen. The bees draw what they need, and because of the more even and neat comb, it is easier to work the hive. Just be carefull when handling combs that are not attached on three sides, and wires don't seem to help much until they are attached on three sides.

[michituck]

I prefer natural cell myself.
My best hive coming out of the winter by far was my top bar hive.
It had twice as many bees as any of my other hives.
I do not use any chemical etc.
Knock on wood , I have not mites or diseases.
It;s one of those things that I believe you should leave them to do their own thing pretty much.
They know what they want.
Another area where man has to stick his hand in and try to improve something that isn't broken and now it's biting him in the rear end.
Were mites a problem before man decided to make the cells on foundation larger?
I realize most commercial bee keepers that move their hives alot can not use natural cell because it's more fragile than foundation.
I just use starter strips or popsickle sticks and the bees readily go to work. No more foundation for me.
Anyway it's one of those arguments that basically boil down to personnel preference.

[beemandan]

Were mites a problem before man decided to make the cells on foundation larger?


Actually Varroa mites aren't a result of larger foundation. Varroa, in earlier times were geographically isolated, so European bees weren't exposed to them (except the trans-Siberian movement of European bees). In today's 'smaller' world those pests aren't isolated any longer. Hitching a ride on who knows what, they've found their way world wide....or at least nearly world wide in the past forty or so years. Long after the advent of the traditional foundations in use today.

[michituck]

OK But my point is that in theory a mite takes 21 days to mature and bees on small or natural cell come out in 19 and or 20 days, thus the mite is not fully mature.
As I said... In a perfect world.
Anyway from what I've heard here and other places it doesn't always hold true for whatever reason.
When man decided to make bigger cells to have bigger bees to have more honey it backfired.
Bigger bees do not get you more honey because a bigger bee also eats more.
Anyway I think you follow the theory.

[beemandan]

Anyway I think you follow the theory.

I follow your theory but just don't agree with much of it.

[Gene Weitzel]

I have not found SC/natural cell to be complex at all, you just let the bees to what they do. I don't have a clue wether SC is an effective varroa control or not. I started my operation with a combination of SC and natural (foundationless) and that is the way it continues. I keep several frames of SC in the center of the broodnest and let them draw the rest the way they want. I have done many cutouts in my area and I find that this best mimics their natural arrangement. I have yet to find a queen from any source that would not lay in my comb (not saying it can't happen, I just have not experienced it yet). I pay no attention to % of drone comb. I find that when the bees want drones, they raise what they need regardless of how much drone comb there is in the hive (I tested this by putting a hive on 100% HSC, when they want drones, they still make all the drones they want by "popping" up the SC cells and drawing drone comb between upper and lower frames). When you don't cull the drone comb, they fill a percentage of it with honey as needed to regulate the drone population. Once again, this is exactly as I have observed in the natural hives. So far, I have not treated a single hive with any so called "hard" treatments. I do use thymol in my syrup to control mold, but no pesticides or antibiotics. I have no evidence of brood disease or nosema and mite counts are so low as to be nonexistent. It may be my bees or it may be my methods or a combination of both, I don't know and I don't really care as it works for me. I would say however, that if you think you want to end up with SC/natural cell, then start with it to begin with. Regressing LC bees is definitely more stressful for them and you. One key difference may be that I don't give the bees SC foundation to draw, all my SC frames are fully drawn HSC so they can't get it wrong. As has been mentioned, I know beekeepers who use 100% LC and don't treat either and are successful, so I know that it is possible to do. Honestly, I use this system mostly because I have found that having a fair percentage of the broodnest on fully drawn plastic seems to thwart the SHB better than when they have all wax. HSC is the only fully drawn plastic available in a deep configuration. I use the foundationless mostly because I am too cheap to buy foundation and the bees don't seem to care. I have found no significant difference in the time it takes them to draw out a foundationless frame and one with foundation. Just my 4 cents worth (a little windy for 2 cents!). ;)