letting the bees build their own...questions

[julesbeek]

I'm going to try letting a few swarms I capture this year build their own comb out (rather than supply small/natural cell which is what I currently use). Last year, I tried this with one swarm and had a bit of a disaster. By the time I looked in the hive a week later, the bees had built 3 combs DIAGONAL to the frames themselves. So I quickly put in sheets of foundation in the rest of the frames, and they corrected the direction (well, corrected for the beekeeper - no doubt they would have been more than happy to continue building that way!).

My hives face south, so I'm wondering if the orientation of the hives has anything to do with why they built the comb on a diagonal to the frames themselves. Is there a way to "encourage" them to build within the frames if you're not using any foundation?

I appreciate any suggestions, especially as I'm purchasing new supplies with the intent of seriously increasing my hives and would love to NOT buy more foundation.

Another related question is that I would prefer to preserve the comb they make so I can use those in subsequent years in the honey supers, so I would need to wire the frames so that the combs don't blow out in the extractor. Has anyone had trouble getting the bees to build natural comb around wires?

Thanks,
Julesbeek

[Hobie]

I have heard (but not experienced first hand) that if you take the entire hive, and rotate it such that it lines up with the diagonal direction the bees are building the comb, the bees will then build comb in the "correct" direction. (remove the diagonal comb, of course)

[Joseph Clemens]

What are you using for "comb guides"?

I like a thin wooden strip in the top groove, thick enough that once I push it into the groove it sticks tight, so I don't have to add glue.

Those foundationless frames I've used that were wired with horizontal wires, the bees incorporated the wire into their honeycomb without any trouble.

[Michael Bush]

>Is there a way to "encourage" them to build within the frames if you're not using any foundation?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

I have not seen the orientation make any difference on them drawing straight comb. Most of mine face east, as far as the entrance, but some are the warm way (combs with the flat facing the entrance) and some the cold way (combs with the flat at right angles to the entrance). I see no difference. A few even face west.

[kbee]

If you can put a fully drawn frame in between a couple of empty ones it helps them get started the right way. Also keep the frames tight together. Swarms are inclined to build comb pretty fast and I like to keep tabs on them until I see how they are doing.

[tim71]

joseph clemens, do the bees take to the wood guieds as good as they do to wax

[Michael Bush]

>do the bees take to the wood guieds as good as they do to wax

In my experience they take wood guides much more reliably than wax. For one thing they don't fall out, they don't get chewed out and removed and they don't sag in the heat.

[julesbeek]

Thanks to all who answered about how to help the bees build comb straight in relation to the frames placed in the hive.

Interestingly enough (per Michael's response), all of my hives' entrances face south, not east.

For the wooden guide, I am curious about a brief description of what that would look like. I have all wedge top frames, so what sort of wedge would I place in the groove?

Thanks again,
Julesbeek

[Michael Bush]

A wooden guide can be popscicle sticks glued into the groove (or nailed and glued with the wedge). You can even break out the wedge and turn it 90 degrees and nail it back in. You could buy some chamfer molding and cut it to fit the top bar. Or, if the frame isn't built yet, run the top bar through the table saw at 45 degrees on each side and make a bevel.

[spunky]

I have hives with both east and south orientation, and I have had them draw good comb both ways. I use 3/4 strips of wax foundation and then place plastic frames with the platic foundation for guides. I find the bees generally draw the starter strips first then fill out the plastic

[beemandan]

(rather than supply small/natural cell which is what I currently use).
So, which do you currently use, small cell or natural cell?

[julesbeek]

Thanks for all the suggestions on how to get the girls to draw out comb "correctly" with no foundation in place. I love the popsicle stick idea and will try that next...

jules

[tony350i]

Hi,

when i use empty frames between frames off brood, i take one of the bottom bars and braid nail it in the rebate of the top bar and bottom bar which gives a lot more strength to the comb when doing inspection.

i don't bother with a wedge on the top bar, the bees work there own comb from the rebate with out any problems as the link shows http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h319/tony350i/100_0284.jpg

Regards Tony

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

If you use drawn comb to guide them, be careful how much and where you put it in. I started my puting in drawn comb every other frame. But when foundationless is in between two drawn comb frames they draw it out completely drone comb. Clump the foundationless frames together so the bees draw it out worker.

I use 1/2 foundation stips. But I have a lot of unwired foundation I need to get rid of, so its convenient.

They will work with wire, but I have heard that whith Med. frames, once they've drawn from side bar to side bar you can extract with a radial and preserve the comb, I'll be trying that this year.

-Nathanael:cool: