Need help again!

[Elsa]

I just got home from my Mom's memorial and the first thing we did was check on the two colonies we put into the hive late Friday. I had to put one in each end with 5 brood bars each (and 4 "blank" honey bars as spacers to the follower on each side) and maybe 16" of empty space between. One of the colonies is gone. Gone-gone. There are a few dead bees in the bottom, but they seem to be the number that were dead inside the package. The queen is very much alive and there were 6 bees on the outside of her cage, but it didn't appear that anyone had been eating the marshmallow at the end (maybe they had as there was a "cup" in the end).

Where'd they go?? The exit was narrowed to about an inch and that was the side of the hive that didn't have a large gap in the follower. There are a large number of bees in the other end, but without prying a bar out I didn't look inside except through the window. I can't tell if there are the same number I dumped in or if, perhaps, the other colony decided to join the. I don't know if that queen has been released. Tomorrow when it's warmer (earlier in the day than now) should I suit up and open up that side to see if they've released the queen?

What do I do with my other queen?? Is there a way I can get more bees for her?

There were a few bees on the ground and a couple in the air. One from the "empty" side buzzed us (came out, buzzed up and down in front of me and then landed on the hive". There are a few bees (maybe 50+) in the center space that must have come from the "full" side. One of the bees on the ground had almost no wing. Not tattered, just "stunted". Should I be concerned?

Ack! I am so confused! Can I save the lonely queen while I try to find another colony for her?

All info is greatly appreciated. This has been a really tough Mother's Day.

~ Elsa

[buckbee]

Sorry you still have problems, Elsa.

I have heard three or four stories already this season of package bees disappearing soon after hiving. I'm really beginning to wonder if the quality - if that is even a relevant term - of package bees has deteriorated. I have always been less than keen on the idea of dropping a bunch of unrelated bees into a box, adding an unrelated queen and putting the whole lot through the postal system; it has always seemed to me to verge on abuse. Frankly, I am surprised so many of them do stay put.

Anyway, that's not much help to you.

I am not clear as to whether the queen has also absconded. If the bees have left without her, I would be on to the supplier for a replacement. Where did you get them from, BTW?

Otherwise, there is little you can do.

Maybe someone else here with experience of packages can help?

[Elsa]

Thanks again for coming to my "rescue". I purchased these packages through Ruhl here in Oregon, and they picked them up from a well known company in California (the name escapes me at the moment). The packages had the queen cages in them for... well, however long it takes to fill them and stack them for shipment plus 4 days.

I had the packages separated by 18" or more (more than they were during storage and shipment), but I noticed one package had considerably more dead bees than the other - perhaps 150 compared to 15 - ant that was the colony that left. I am wondering if, with the gaps in my followerd that the bees got through, which could very well be considered an "easier" egress than the 1" entrance, if they simply "drifted" by hiking one by one over to the other colony?

Today I will pop a few bars out on the other side and see if they've released their queen and if there seem to be a lot more bees over there than a package. At least then I'll know where the "missing" colony went.

How long can I keep the other queen alive? Is it possible the missing colony sensed the other queen was "preferable" and simply chose to leave theirs to her own fate? Should I just consider her a loss? I'm waiting to hear back from Ruhl.

I had spoken to Old Sol last December about starting in beekeeping, but I didn't think I'd actually placed an order until I got an invoice from them a while back for a Nuc. I wrote to them to explain I'd already purchased packages elsewhere because I was going with a KTBH but I continued to receive invoices and notices that the shipment was going to be late. I wrote to them as well with my quandry and, since I haven't built the second hive yet, if the Nuc was still available (not that I have another $95 "handy", but I really want two hives). If so I could either build a Warre hive, a TTBH or, I realized after I'd written them, put them into a medium standard and simply put that on top (like a super) of the second hive, following the design I already used.

If the bees "drifted" (how a hike qualifies as a "drift" I don't know - ha-ha) to the other colony through the gaps in my followers - I can call that a "learning experience". If they simply left, lock, stock and barrel, then I haven't a clue.

Thanks again and I'll update you with my findings later.

~ Elsa

[stangardener]

i think that in all practicality you hived two packages in one hive. that's not something that you can expect the best results from. i think you will find your "lost" bees behind door #1.
if so you could just split the bees and start over into into their own hive. but i think i would cork the cage and close the entrance for a couple days like a package. if you only have one hive or limited time to devote to bees i would leave them alone and write the extra queen off.

[Elsa]

Thanks - I'm going to opt for leaving them bee. There is one lonely worker on the queen cage of the abandoned side and she appears to be the lone hanger-oner protecting her (rather than threatening her). Even with the window open I couldn't see into the other hive. As I was prying bars apart trying to get enough room to check the queen cage on that side several girls came out to let me know they didn't appreciate it. Nobody bounced off me or really threatened, it was more like "Hey! We're workin' here!!" I checked the queen cage and they had released her.

I had read that in a TBH you could house two colonies, but I really didn't want to, but after Mom died I just lost all direction and didn't even get the second hive started. I really want two hives, but, unless someone has a split I can get, I'm not going to bother these bees more than I have to. I made a design decision I regret now because with the gap in the follower there are bees clustering on both sides and I have to twist the follower in order to get it out. That was to make it "snug", which it was on top... just not on the bottom where they're getting through. So, without smoking them I'm not sure how to get them to move along so I can pull the follower back without squashing lots of bees. Hmmm... I guess that's something I'm going to have to get used to every once in a while. I just hate it.

There are 8 brood bars on the inhabited side... is that sufficient space for 2 packages of Carniolans for a while? Should I just go ahead and brush the bees out of the way, move the follower and increase it to 16 brood and a few honey bars? Should I wait a few days before messing with them again?

When I positioned the hive, since there were two packages installed, I put it with the entrances perpendicular to SE. Should I SLOWLY turn it a few degrees every few days until it's oriented to the SE?

I was happy that the other queen was released and the bees were still here. I don't know what finding them gone this morning would have done to my very fragile self confidence right now.

Thanks again for all the help!

~Elsa

[buckbee]

Just to tidy up one point - I have never read anyone suggesting that hiving two start-up colonies in one TBH was a good idea. Making a split from an existing, established colony in the same box is certainly possible - although not something I would suggest for a beginner. Experienced TBHers have been known to run two colonies at opposite ends of a TBH, with queen excluders on the inside of each and supers over the centre. Again, not something to try at home until you have a couple of seasons under your belt.

If you have indeed ended up with two packages in one, you may well wish to expand their space beyond 8 bars, sooner rather than later.

Under normal conditions, moving the follower should not be such a problem, as the bee population should be at its least dense where the followers are located. If that is not clear now, it will become clear with experience.

I have heard that bees prefer a NW-SE orientation for comb, but have yet to see any evidence of this in my hives. If anyone knows of research or has pictures, I would like to see them.

Good luck with those bees. :)

[Elsa]

Ahhh... I must have totally misunderstood the two in one stuff I read. Well, my CRS (Can't Remember Sh....tuff) is well documented.

I am waiting for answers regarding a queenless package, a Nuc (and considering the lonely queen a "loss") and the possibility of getting a split. Perhaps with the last option I can salvage the queen. If not, perhaps the split will grow their own.

Well, if everything goes too easily at first you don't learn as much, huh? :-) I'm making some more syrup tonight, will move (or remove) the follower and change out the feeder. These girls seem to be pretty calm as they had no problem with me coming up to move a few things, remove the feeder from the other end and tidy up without a fuss. They checked me out, but didn't challenge me.

I don't see any obvious guard bees at the hive entrance - is that just because there's really no actual established hive yet? I see lots of bees (a few dozen at a time... not exactly "lots" I guess) buzzing around, landing, taking off and landing again, but they seem to prefer the gap in the follower and going through the roof than going through the "door". I'm imagining those girls are just getting their bearings?

I put a chair out to watch them... but it's so hard! I watch and want to go in there... but I'm trying not to mess with them too much. I do realize I need to move that follower. I should finish making the rest of the bars too.

Anyhoo... thanks again for all the help. :-)

~ Elsa

[Derek]

Q&A. Im a newbee. But. My answers are from my own post/search and what I have learned so far.

Q: (and considering the lonely queen a "loss") A: Thats your best bet.


Q: These girls seem to be pretty calm as they had no problem with me coming up to move a few things, remove the feeder from the other end and tidy up without a fuss. They checked me out, but didn't challenge me.

A: They have nothing to defend yet. No larve, much food, ect... They are worried about getting their house set up. Not You/Us/Me.

Q: I don't see any obvious guard bees at the hive entrance - is that just because there's really no actual established hive yet?

A: Yes. They are there just alot to do. I noticed obvious guards at day 7.

Q: I see lots of bees (a few dozen at a time... not exactly "lots" I guess) buzzing around, landing, taking off and landing again, but they seem to prefer the gap in the follower and going through the roof than going through the "door". I'm imagining those girls are just getting their bearings?

A: Yes/No They are getting their bearings. But sounds like the like the top entrance. See Michael Bush about the top entrance.

Q: put a chair out to watch them...

A: Let me stop ya right there.

A: Pull up a chair next to me or Ltlwilli. Thats our plan