Got my 2 Packs and Installed them today! Is all this bee poop normal?

[JAK]

What a good day. The weather was a little cool, about 48 deg at the high, but picked up the packages at 1:30, saw the install demo, took them home and installed them.

Quick question, what were once spotlessly clean painted hives are now splattered all over with bee poop. Is package installation normally this messy? I've seen packages installed quite a few times in the bee-classes, but don't really remember this part of it. I know it's bee poop b/c it's a mustardy type of color, and I gently squeezed (not crushed) a dead fat drone's abdomen and this mess squished out.

I figured things were OK, as they were packaged on Thursday, travelled up from Georgia on Friday, and then installed on Saturday. That's a heckuva stressful week, it would probably aggravate my digestive system also.

However, the outside of the hive contains a lot of mustardy streaking and spotting, and just wanted to make sure this was normal. I installed on 8 frame mediums, trying foundationless. Nothing like jumping in head first. Got stung once on the back of the neck, but the only real headache was trying to fasten the queen cage to the frame, had to nail it in as the stapler was lost, the brads were missing, and finishing nails finally did the trick.

Thanks for the replies,

JAK

[peggjam]

I don't remember that much poo when installing packages, but then it's been a few years since I did any packages. Might want to keep an eye on them, and if it gets worse treat them for nosema:).

[dcross]

You could send some of the recently departed to Beltsville for testing.

Twisters work well for the queen cage, no chance of shooting her through with them:)

[JAK]

I'll keep a close eye on them, to see what happens. One package was much more "leaky" than the other. The "leaky" package also had more lethargic / dead bees, it's supposed to get down to the 20's tonight, so I will collect a few (Is 25 enough?) and send them away. It is a free service, correct? Otherwise, I'll take the dead bees to work and try to educate and use the scopes there to figure out what's in their guts.

Thanks,

JAK

PS I was thinking zip ties, twist ties would have definitely been better. The nails were the only convenient thing on hand as I was holding the queen cage and my helper (my dad) was looking through his huge toolboxes for something small to use. Finishing nails were it. It was a good day.

[AstroBee]

I've haven't installed great number of packages, but the ones that I have never had this problem. This doesn't seem right to me and you might want to follow-up with testing as suggested by dcross.

[Michael Bush]

Anytime you confine bees you get some dysentery. If it continues after the first chance they got to fly, which was when you installed them, then I'd worry about it.

[Flyman]

Hived 10 packages today. They were packaged on Thursday, I picked them up on Friday and installed them this evening (Saturday). Noticed a few spots on my suit and a few on the top of the newly painted tops, but no big deal. I just think they were glad to be in a new home.

Tom

[MapMan]

They had to hold it in for a l-o-n-g time. Last year one of my packages just covered me and my freshly laundered white suit in the stuff.:(

They turned out fine - I think it all depends on length of confinement, as other packages weren't that way.

MM

[WVbeekeeper]

I'll keep a close eye on them, to see what happens. One package was much more "leaky" than the other. The "leaky" package also had more lethargic / dead bees, it's supposed to get down to the 20's tonight, so I will collect a few (Is 25 enough?) and send them away. It is a free service, correct? Otherwise, I'll take the dead bees to work and try to educate and use the scopes there to figure out what's in their guts.


Registering Your Apiary and Submitting Samples for Testing (http://wvbeekeeper.blogspot.com/2008/01/registering-your-apiary-and-submitting.html)


You need to send at least 100 bees. They will test them for tracheal and varroa mites as well as nosema, there is no need to specify what you want them to test for. It is a free service. Let us know what you find out after you get your test results back. I've always been scared to purchase any packages due to the fact that I may inadvertently import something I don't want in my apiary but decided to get four 4 3# packages from out of Georgia. As soon as they arrive I'll be sending some samples out.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472

[Jeffzhear]

WVBeekeeper,
Thanks for providing the link to the USDA Bee Research Laboratory.

I knew it was out there in the internet wonderland somewhere and would have found it...it's printed now and in a pocket sleeve in my three ring...:)

[JAK]

Thanks for the responses. The hive wasn't nearly as messy today as yesterday (also less traumatic on them as I wasn't shaking them into a new home). In fact there were quite a few dead bees that were hauled in front of the entrance, so it looks like they're cleaning up the place. I also checked the removeable tray from the SBB and I didn't see any worrisome large amounts of bee-waste.

WVBeekeper:
Thanks for the address. I was sorting through web pages looking for the actual address to send them to, your information/link makes it easy. I'll try to collect the dead ones (100) and mail them off to get them inspected. It would also be a nice idea to get a survey of what package suppliers actually sent, from an unbiased source. Will get to work collecting..

Mapman, Flyman, Michael Bush, Dcross, Peggjam, Astrobee:
Thanks for the advice/reassurance/observations. I'm an excited, nervous first-timer with two new hives, appreciate your information.

Cheers,

JAK

[lloyd@rossrounds.com]

I hate to say it, but this is not a good sign for the quality of your packages. Do you know who in GA produced them?

The best you can do is be sure they have lots of feed, including pollen. Cross your fingers and hope.

But don't disturb the newly-hived packages. It will increase their stress. It will be tough to do, but I suggest you leave them alone (except for feeding) until April 19! Three weeks. Then look. Frames should be full of brood in all stages. If not, report back here what you see and I'm sure someone will help you.

[MapMan]

It is a free service.

No, we all pay for it - with taxes.;) So if you don't absolutely need it, don't use the service - my taxes are high enough.:(

Likely the stress and confinement was the reason for the excessive amounts of discharge. Sometimes us beekeepers make mountains out of molehills. I'd wait a few days - if they mess in the hive or close to it, you might then have to medicate with an antibiotic. I'll bet that they are doing fine already.

MM

[Jim Fischer]

I'll echo Lloyd Spear's concern.

That's not normal. Any form of digestive disorder is unusual in a new
package.

I don't care if the bees had been confined for a week or even two, they
had clean sugar syrup or HFCS the whole time, which is NOT going to
cause that sort of a problem during such a short term of confinement.

Like Lloyd, I've helped uncounted hundreds of new-bees hive their
packages, and I don't recall this being even close to common. It is
unusual enough to prompt one to check with others who ordered packages
from the same source, and compare notes.

Yes, bees confined for long periods, and forced to survive on food with
impurities (such as honey, with its ever-present indigestible components)
certainly will show symptoms of dysentery.

But here you had a short period of confinement, and pure feed with no
impurities. The only conclusion is that these bees are sick, and need
an experienced eye to judge the appropriate response.

[JAK]

"But don't disturb the newly-hived packages. It will increase their stress. It will be tough to do, but I suggest you leave them alone (except for feeding) until April 19! Three weeks. Then look. Frames should be full of brood in all stages."--Lloyd

--I don't want to disturb them, but I need to release the queen from her cage. So I know that I'll stress them out somewhat with that endeavor. I'll never get brood, unless she's a contortionist and can squeeze herself through the screen.

The local beekeepers say that maple is already being brought in by their hives, so I figure that once I release the queen (probably Tuesday as it's overcast/rainy today) then things can get back to normal and the bees will hopefully find some of that maple pollen, start building comb using the 1:1 syrup as fuel, and orient themselves. There are two (separate) naked hives, containing foundationless frames, and 1:1 sugar syrup with a queen cage wedged between one of the top bars. My current goal is to get the queen out of her cage, check to make sure they're drawing some form of comb, and make sure the bees aren't "leaking" all over their new hive.

I'll let you know what happens,

Cheers,

JAK

PS I don't think I have enough bees for testing, and I don't need higher taxes either.

[JAK]

I left work early and spent some time releasing the queens from their cage. What a fun experience! I noticed a large clump of dead bees on the floor of the screened bottom board (Probably from the shake on Saturday). We'll see how quickly they get cleaned up now that the queen is loose.

I did get some bee poop on my leather jacket, quite a few splatters on my sleeves. I'll take some pictures of the hive, bees, and splatters and bring them to the next beecourse meeting (mid-April) to see if anyone else has noticed the same things.

Jim Fischer, I agree that the bees need an experienced eye to judge the appropriate response. I'm worried about me crying wolf here, also. Consider the source: a new beekeeper, 2 packages, installing in 50 degree weather (Saturday, March 29th). It could be too much for the bees, or it could be normal. I have no experience base, and while the spotting/poop did shock me, I felt quite a few splatters during the demo package install when we picked them up Saturday morning. Maybe it's normal, but I don't remember the splatters the last time I watched an isntall. Maybe I wasn't close enough? I don't want to get anyone riled up over what is probably me being a Nervous Nelly. However, I thank everyone for their concern.

I'll see what the other folks noticed with their packages in April and figure out some game plan.

Cheers,

JAK

[Jim Fischer]

> I'm worried about me crying wolf here

Don't be worried. What you saw raised both my and Lloyd's
eyebrows. I ran about 500 colonies, Lloyd still runs at least
several hundred. What you saw was rare, and worth reporting.

[J.D.Redwine]

JAK, I installed seven packages from Dadant this week and they all showed the symptoms you described.

[JAK]

Well,

It's been almost two weeks. The front of both hives have lots of spotting. The interior is a lot cleaner. They temp hit 70 deg F yesterday, and I saw some bees pulling the dead bees out the front door. Checking the trays in the SBB, a lot of wax flakes, pollen grains, but no more poop.

Looks like the Fumidil-B that they were offering during package pickup was probably a good idea. Anyhow, opened them up yesterday and wax is being drawn. Looks like they're settling down.

JK

[Michael Bush]

You shake a lot of nurse bees off of combs into packages with their guts still full of pollen and confine them for a few days. There will be poop.

[Jim Fischer]

> The front of both hives have lots of spotting.

Did you clean off the original smears and stains?
Is this additional "spotting", even after two weeks?

> You shake a lot of nurse bees off of combs into
> packages with their guts still full of pollen

You've never shook packages, have you?
If one was shaking "nurse bees" off brood frames, one might
shake the queen into a package, and screw up the colony from
which one shook the bees. That's why one only shakes off bees
that have made it above a queen excluder. You get house bees
of various types, but few actual nurse bees.

[dickm]

I've installed a lot of packages. (10 to 15 a year) and I've never seen this. Suggest you treat for nosema anyway...even if you don't need to.

dickm

[coondogger]

There is another thread concerning this problem and as I posted on that one, I too noticed excessive feces around the hive entrance on two newly installed hives. I think I'll put some fumigillin the frame feeders when I check them next week. Anyone else taking this course of action?

[EKW]

I've kept bees for 12 years, and have worked with several commercial beekeepers as well during that time. I have never seen what you describe here. If I had, the first thing I would have done was to treat for nosema (as I do with all package bees), then I would have gotten on the phone to the package supplier to find out what was going on. If other beekeepers on this forum think that is normal, then I'm glad I don't buy my packages from their source.

Which reminds me, I installed a half dozen packages yesterday and not a single one of them had the symptoms you described.

Hope they recover and do well for you.

[JAK]

Hi guys,

Saw some activity on this thread and figured I'd post an update. The two packages are in 8-frame medium hives, being fed 1:1 sugar syrup. There was a very large die-off from the "weak" package that smelled funny (kind of like a fish oil smell). I thought they were goners, only about 3 cups of bees, but they seem to be recovering nicely, with 5 frames of drawn comb, and capped brood and lots of eggs.

The "stronger hive" has 8 frames drawn, a new super and is filled with lots of bees. I think I just grabbed one good and one bad package. Of particular interest was the amount of drones in the "weak" hive. It seemed like every 5 bees was a drone. Some quite grey looking (maybe I'm over-reacting). However, 6 weeks into it, both packages seem to be holding their own and I'm interested to see how quick they build the foundationless frames. One things for certain, I think that I will try to get a local nuc next time. I'm now a little hesitant about buying a package. It seems to make more practical sense to buy something where you can move frames right into the new home and already have a jump right off the bat. Of course, one doesn't know what other problems one is getting with the nuc (diesease wise). Could be trading one problem for another.

Thanks for the recent inquiry. After re-orienting some out of kilter comb with rubber bands, things seem to be looking pretty good for both hives.

Happy days,

JAK