Prebiotics???????

[Matt Beekman]

I orginally posted this on biological beekeeping and did not get a response; so here it goes again.

One aspect of bee nutrition that I have never heard discussed, researched or written about is the whole idea of incorporation of prebiotics in supplemental feeds. (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PROBIOTICS) Prebiotics are non-digestible carbohydrates that feed gut bacteria. Most fields of animal husbandry have alreay incorporated prebiotics in supplemental feeds. It is not a new thing.

There are also immune boosting aspects to prebiotics. The most common form of prebiotics in animal feeds is yeast cell walls; also referred to as Saf Mannan or MOS. The following link is discusses this in great detail. I would encourage everyone following this thread or anyone with a remote interest in supplemental feeding of bees to check it out. It is worth mentioning that there is a dosage recommendation for bees for the product marketed by Fermex. I contacted them and supposedly beekeepers in Australia are using their yeast cell wall product.

http://www.fermex.com.au/img/File/YCWM.pdf

I would be very interested to get some feedback from other posters.

[Laurence Hope]

This info may be useful to us. I, too would like to hear from others, especially those who have used this or know of tests for the use of it, etc. I believe we need all the help we can get in feeding bees, especially those of us who get mostly mono floral pollens.

[BWrangler]

Hi Matt,

Read your post earlier. Have never heard of prebiotics before.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards
Dennis

[beegee]

I'm thinking that(from my previous life as a commercial hog farmer)that in order for pre-biotics towork, an animal would have to have a complex digestive system(plenty of surface area and length) where the food carrying the ingredient would remain for a relatively long period of time. In the bee, with her limited diet(pollen and nectar) and a short digestive tract and span, I think prophylactic dietary manipulation would be neither effective or efficient dollar-wise.

[Matt Beekman]

Beegee you raise some good points. I have been wondering if pollen husks are essentially natures Pre-Biotic? There was a great picture of a the anatomy of a bee posted at http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216772.

The large amount of pollen husks was significant. It is worth noting that this picture was taken in Feb. in the UK.

As commercial beekeepers, if we are feeding large amounts of supplement without any non-digestable carbohydrates, perhaps we are losing out on maximizing the feed conversion of our feed? Also, many of the issues beekeepers are struggling with i.e. nosema and foulbrood like to set up shop in that midgut. Instead of antibiotics, how about something that purges and destroys those things.

In terms of cost, .03% of feed is the recommended dosage. We are taking about less than a penny a pound at that dosage.

[beegee]

Seems to me the best feed conversion would come from providing bee forage that is varied and plentiful and natural. I had an old-timer tell me that feeding bees creates a welfare state.

[Michael Bush]

Since pollen and honey are what they naturally eat, I would assume those would feed the beneficial organisms that should be in their system.

[Keith Jarrett]

I would be very interested to get some feedback from other posters.

Matt, I think the artical has merits.

I think a person is better off feeding pollen sub for nosema than feeding fumagilin.

That statment should get the thread moving. :)

[irwin harlton]

kEITH DO YOU HAVE ANY TEST RESULTS ON THIS , Observations perhaps?
Pollen sub is fed in the spring usually when temps allow bee cleansing flights,and if nosema is not too severe this would help clean it up? or make it worse?

[Keith Jarrett]

kEITH DO YOU HAVE ANY TEST RESULTS ON THIS , Observations perhaps?

Hi Irwin,

Ya you could say observations mostly.

I never seem to have high levels of nosema. I never lose more than 10% D/O rate over winter.This year it was 5%.

I just don't seem to be having the problems other bee folks are having.
I do think it's keeping the bugs feed up well with low stress levels.

I will say that most pollen sub don't cut the mustard through, you can't buy a one pound store bought patty and expect miracle's.

Also, most is feed during Aug-15 & Nov-1

[irwin harlton]

what would be your average colony consumption be from Aug-15 & Nov-1 and your average spring cosumption per colony.
I asume you are feeding some antibiotics as well during this period and how much you charging for your sub


thanks

irwin

[Keith Jarrett]

what would be your average colony consumption be from Aug-15 & Nov-1 and your average spring cosumption per colony.
I asume you are feeding some antibiotics as well during this period and how much you charging for your sub


thanks

irwin

Irwin,
I will answer but, I would like to stay on Matt"s topic.

Aug- Nov 15-20 pounds Jan 1---Feb 20, five pounds.

No antibiotics in the sub. Price... well we will have to take a wait and see approach. The commodity prices are nuts right now.

[irwin harlton]

Anybody know of any Australian studies done on this product, recommended amt 0.3% in feed,don't know the price but this being a small amount should not be a big price factor,would be alot cheaper than Fumidil B, I thinks
Doesn't fumidil just cure the symptums, not the disease?

[Michael Bush]

>Doesn't fumidil just cure the symptums, not the disease?

Fumidil kills the organism, but not the spores.

[Randy Oliver]

Hi Guys,

Keith brought this discussion to my attention. I'm writing an article on the subject currently. There are a number of very interesting papers on the biology of bee gut flora, and their effect upon the immune system.

Bees inoculate pollen loads with probiotic bacteria and yeast, which then start lactic acid fermentation of the bee bread. The probiotics produce compounds that restrain pathogenic organisms.

When a bee larvae moults into the pupae, it cleans out its gut, and emerges nearly sterile. It reinoculates its gut with its first meal of bee bread. Uninoculated bees are apparently more susceptible to diseases.

There is lots of work on mammal gut inoculation, but less on bees. But it is very likely that pre- and probiotics are very useful. In mammals, prebiotic bacteria prime the mucosal immune system. However, as BeeGee brings up, the bee digestive system is very different from a mammal's. When I perform nosema testing, the bees' guts are often full of broken pollen shells, which supports Matt's observation.

I'm not sure as to whether there is any additional benefit to using SAF Mannan over whole yeast cells, unless the byproduct is cheaper. I've just sent off emails to two researchers who may know.

The beneficial gut flora issue also makes me question the widespread use of Tylosin as a fall treatment (off label).

As far as protein feeding, there is quite a bit of research and field results that support the contention that good protein feeding in summer and fall helps to prevent nosema and colony collapse.

I am unable to keep current on Beesource--please let me know if you find anything else along this line.

Thanks,
Randy

[Matt Beekman]

Hey Randy! I am really happy to see you add some insight to this thread; and am looking forward to your article. One thing that has made an impact on me when researching prebiotics is that the poultry industry seems focused on trying to reduce / eliminate antibiotics in their operations. This makes me wonder what the down sides to antibiotics are; and maybe the cure is worse than the disease?

I would like to know a lot more about the impact of tylosin and fumigilin / fumidil (sp.?) on gut flora. Also I think Keith made a good point about it being better to feed pollen sub that fumidil. I suspect that, beyond just basic nutritional needs, it is critical that bees have consistent movement of food through there gut to ward off nosema and other pathogens that set up shop in the gut.

On a very basic level, I think prebiotics warrant more examination that probiotics. It is my understanding that there are multiple strains of lactic acid bacteria (lactobacillus (sp.?). So which ones do we add to our feed? In what dosages? At what ratios? It seems far more simple to just feed the existing gut bacteria. Doesn't it?

I realize I am rambling; but I strongly suspect that a healthy gut is at the core of the bee industry's problems.

I feel it in my gut!

[Keith Jarrett]

I realize I am rambling; but I strongly suspect that a healthy gut is at the core of the bee industry's problems.

I feel it in my gut!

Well Matt, I agree....

I think if you had put on your thread somewhere "CCD" it would have a thousand hits by now, But , a bees gut.

Well, the keepers that should be listening are to busy talking to there banker.

You know Matt, I mention on another thread that bees change things within there gut and the gut of young bees are IMPORTANT what they eat in the first week of life.

Ya, but that's boring stuff I guess.