UV radiation sterilization

[kbee]

I lost two hives to disentery this winter. I don't know if Nosema is responsible or not. I would like to salvage the wooden ware and comb if possible. I read Randy Oliver's article in the current ABJ. In it he mentions Nosema spores are killed by UV radiation. I scraped the frames and boxes and spread the frames and boxes out on a tarp in the sun. Sunlight here in upstate NY is rare and to get two days of 100% sunlight is a gift. Total time exposed was 15-16 hours with one flipping of position. Temp was in the 20's so comb remained intact(although it is very brittle). Any ideas if the UV radiation in sunlight at this time of year at this location is sufficent to kill NOsema spores?

[Michael Bush]

Acetic acid fumigation is the only thing I've heard people say would kill them. It would seem like clorox would. Clorox will put a dent even in AFB spores. clorox also evaporates fairly quickly.

[kbee]

Can clorox be used on comb? All of my comb is natural cell and I would like to preserve it if possible. Is there any dilution to the clorox? Spray on or soak?

[Michael Bush]

>Can clorox be used on comb?

I don't know. I was never trying to deal with nosema and haven't tried it.

>Is there any dilution to the clorox?

You probably could dilute it some, but I would think straight should work.

>Spray on or soak?

I would think either would work. The advantage to soaking is it would be quicker, if you have a tank, and would take more clorox. The advantage to spraying is you don't have to fill the tank.

[dcross]

Somewhere I came across the statement that 120 deg. F for 24 hrs was sufficient, shouldn't be too hard to set up.

[kbee]

MB thanks for the advice. decross, Yes Randy's article also talked about heat treatment. My next project is to build a simple Hot box that I can put deeps/supers with combs in. Temp regulation is the key. His article also references treating for 5 days at 104 degrees. Lower temps would be safer for comb and any residual honey. I'm hoping heat treatment and clorox spray/soak will be enough. I will keep this equipment together and put a swarm in it and see how they do. Maybe I should set up two hives. One with just heat and one with heat/clorox.

[dcross]

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/601-8490457-7148133?ASIN=B000TADTH2&AFID=Froogle&LNM=B000TADTH2|Warm_Fusion_Heater_Fan&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=B000TADTH2&ref=tgt_adv_XSG10001

I have a heater similar to this and a cheap thermometer in an old freezer, it could do 120 pretty easily. Right now it's germinating lavender plants though:)

[HVH]

I lost two hives to disentery this winter. I don't know if Nosema is responsible or not. I would like to salvage the wooden ware and comb if possible. I read Randy Oliver's article in the current ABJ. In it he mentions Nosema spores are killed by UV radiation. I scraped the frames and boxes and spread the frames and boxes out on a tarp in the sun. Sunlight here in upstate NY is rare and to get two days of 100% sunlight is a gift. Total time exposed was 15-16 hours with one flipping of position. Temp was in the 20's so comb remained intact(although it is very brittle). Any ideas if the UV radiation in sunlight at this time of year at this location is sufficent to kill NOsema spores?

I don't know the answer, but it is common in scientific circles to use a UV lamp as a source of radiation. The lower wavelengths below 300nm are the most effective. DNA's max absorbance is at 254-260nm which causes DNA strand breaks (ultimately kills). see link for bleach info

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_hypochlorite

[Jim Fischer]

> Acetic acid fumigation is the only thing I've heard people say would kill
> them.

Yes, this works. Photo supply stores sell 98% - 99% acetic fairly cheap.
It is heavier than air, so while it is a nasty acid, it is not tough to wrap
a stack of boxes with some pallet wrap, and treat them with acetic.
Just take care not to splash/spill.

> It would seem like clorox would.

Not via fumigation certainly. Via direct contact perhaps, but I'd stay away
from untested approaches when there are proven approaches that can
be used. The residues of "clorox" are easy to see in the pump house of
any swimming pool. Just thinking of it makes my tongue get nasty taste
on it. Not something I'd want anywhere near my brood comb.

[deknow]

how did we end up with discussing using photo chems on brood comb? yes, i know what acetic acid is....i just don't think i'd use any chemical packaged for photographic use in food production....apparently not everyone thinks as i do.:confused:

deknow

[Jim Fischer]

> I read Randy Oliver's article in the current ABJ.
> In it he mentions Nosema spores are killed by UV radiation.

The amount of exposure here would be crucial.
I am not sure that mere sunlight exposure would provide
a high enough flux.

Randy recently was promoting thymol as a Nosema "cure", but
he later retracted the claim, reporting that Thymol didn't work
as well as he initially thought, providing another example of
how disease and pest issues can mislead.

> How did we end up with discussing using photo chems on brood comb?

No reason to any more squeamish over acetic acid than over oxalic
or formic acids.

> yes, i know what acetic acid is...

The chemical is the same no matter
how it is packaged, and the suggestion that the "photo chemical"
version be used was an attempt to help people avoid that haz-mat
shipping fees. 98% ("glacial") acetic acid is 98% acetic acid, no
matter where it is made or where it is bought.

> i just don't think i'd use any chemical packaged for photographic
> use in food production...

Unlike Formic Acid, there is no need to work about a "food grade"
version, as there is nothing to contaminate the making of the stuff
(non food-grade formic can have some heavy metals in it).
So, if you were to buy some "photo" acetic acid, and dilute it with
water, you would haver perfectly acceptable vinegar, and could
use it on your salad in a vinegar-and-oil dressing.

[tecumseh]

dcross writes:
Somewhere I came across the statement that 120 deg. F for 24 hrs was sufficient, shouldn't be too hard to set up.

tecumseh ask:
wouldn't 120 degrees melt the wax?

UV.... ultra violet? they use some kind of ultra violet tube on water purification (reverse osmosis) systems. for you physics---girls, guys and 100% geeks--- is this a similar (same function?) type equipment? I think (??? have to check with a friend) that the UV was to zap bacteria??????

[Zane]

Hi, I(newbee) think I have a similar question. I am overhauling some old used supers from my neighbors to make up swarm boxes. I have no idea if they are contaminated w/ anything. Will these be ok to use if I sterilize them? What about Iodine? in my beer making I use iodine instead of bleach which I rinse off due to the taste and possible residue. Iodine wash air dries clean. Just ideas????:D

[HVH]

dcross writes:
Somewhere I came across the statement that 120 deg. F for 24 hrs was sufficient, shouldn't be too hard to set up.

tecumseh ask:
wouldn't 120 degrees melt the wax?

UV.... ultra violet? they use some kind of ultra violet tube on water purification (reverse osmosis) systems. for you physics---girls, guys and 100% geeks--- is this a similar (same function?) type equipment? I think (??? have to check with a friend) that the UV was to zap bacteria??????


1) The wax would get soft but melts at approx. 143F.
2) Reverse Osmosis uses a semi-permeable membrane that allows pure water to pass through the membrane but excludes all else.
3) Ultraviolet light at about 254 nanometer wavelength (UV-C) is considered germicidal and is used in many applications, including biological hoods and air purification systems. UV-C lights are commercially available and are usually effective when used for 15 minutes at close range (calculated in watts/square centimeter). I am not sure, however, if the light would get into all the infected cells. This is why I think temperature of fumigation would contact more surfaces.
Hopefully that wasn't geeky.:confused:

[thera]

Hello,
I am new to this wonderful forum and I find this topic very interesting. Hope you don't mind my 2cents. As a lab scientist, I completely agree with HVH on the UV light usage. I typically use the 254nm UV light to "crosslink" the DNA and destroy it (as HVH mentioned earlier). With 5 UV bulbs, it only takes about 1 minute on each side of object to destroy DNA. With 1 bulb, 20 minutes is used.
Household bleach diluted 1 part bleach:9parts water is typically used in most laboratories to surface disinfect. It will destroy viruses and most bacteria. It does leave a residue that will pit/rust any metal so usually wipe down with any alcohol (70%) to remove residue.
The bleach may work without detrimental effect on bees because chlorine is destroyed by sunlight (that's why we have to add so much bleach to our pools in the summer). So, you could leave hives in sunlight for a day or two to help dissipate leftover chlorine.
70% alcohol also used to disinfect (example: hand sanitizers). Alcohol dissipates quicky with no residue and no nasty smell.
Acetic acid- if you want to try it, buy vinegar in the grocery store. Acetic acid is vinegar. Drawback is the smell which may linger really long and it'll pit/rust/eat any metal. Maybe wiping with the alcohol afterwards too would help against pitting.
Iodine? Don't know. Wouldn't it stain the wood badly?
One big overall problem to all these options that we're talking about is that we're talking Nosema SPORES and spores are notoriously difficult to destroy. I don't know enough about the physical structure of the spore and cell wall to say whether UV, bleach, alchohol, vinegar, or iodine could actually work well on Nosema spores. Maybe someone else has more information on any studies.

P.S. Tecumseh asked about reverse osmosis (RO) & UV. RO filtration removes big particles and some bacteria from water but not considered "ultrapure" water for scientific use. UV can be added to an RO to help sterilize water and become "ultrapure".

thanks for listening to my geek speak,
thera

[HVH]

Hello,
I am new to this wonderful forum and I find this topic very interesting. Hope you don't mind my 2cents. As a lab scientist, I completely agree with HVH on the UV light usage. I typically use the 254nm UV light to "crosslink" the DNA and destroy it (as HVH mentioned earlier). With 5 UV bulbs, it only takes about 1 minute on each side of object to destroy DNA. With 1 bulb, 20 minutes is used.
Household bleach diluted 1 part bleach:9parts water is typically used in most laboratories to surface disinfect. It will destroy viruses and most bacteria. It does leave a residue that will pit/rust any metal so usually wipe down with any alcohol (70%) to remove residue.
The bleach may work without detrimental effect on bees because chlorine is destroyed by sunlight (that's why we have to add so much bleach to our pools in the summer). So, you could leave hives in sunlight for a day or two to help dissipate leftover chlorine.
70% alcohol also used to disinfect (example: hand sanitizers). Alcohol dissipates quicky with no residue and no nasty smell.
Acetic acid- if you want to try it, buy vinegar in the grocery store. Acetic acid is vinegar. Drawback is the smell which may linger really long and it'll pit/rust/eat any metal. Maybe wiping with the alcohol afterwards too would help against pitting.
Iodine? Don't know. Wouldn't it stain the wood badly?
One big overall problem to all these options that we're talking about is that we're talking Nosema SPORES and spores are notoriously difficult to destroy. I don't know enough about the physical structure of the spore and cell wall to say whether UV, bleach, alchohol, vinegar, or iodine could actually work well on Nosema spores. Maybe someone else has more information on any studies.

P.S. Tecumseh asked about reverse osmosis (RO) & UV. RO filtration removes big particles and some bacteria from water but not considered "ultrapure" water for scientific use. UV can be added to an RO to help sterilize water and become "ultrapure".

thanks for listening to my geek speak,
thera

Thera,

Thanks for the info.
I have not personally seen UV-C applied to RO units. If RO excludes small molecules like salt and sugar, surely, no life form can get across the membrane. So why the UV-C?

[Zane]

FYI- Iodine is mixed w/ water like the bleach solution so I wouldn't think you'd have any major "stain" issues. I have painted a couple OLD supers and are wanting to make traps out of them. So will the bleach or possibly my iodine suggestion work to clean thease old supers off enough to make a trap out of them? I have no idea what happened to the bee's in these supers(my neighbors just quit). I hate to do something and contaminate bee's in my trap. But then again these supers would make good traps if I can get them sterile.

[tecumseh]

thanks for the elaboration HVH and Thera. sometimes it is quite enlighting to get a bit deeper and operational validated view on these kinds of question.

[thera]

Thank you, Tecumseh for your kind post. It would be interesting to find out the best way to get rid of those spores. Maybe it would have to be a combination of treatments. Who knows?
Zane, thanks for explaining the iodine. Do you think it's still effective if diluted? Does it smell bad or linger?
HVH, in regards to your question about the UV, I see that UV is not often used in combo with RO filtration system (at least in the lab settings). Most people have either the RO system that removes salt, chlorine, parasites, and larger bacteria (not smaller bacteria or viruses so not really considered sterile; it's a small step above tap water in quality) or a much more expensive HPLC quality water filtration system that removes every bacteria, virus, chemical, mineral, deionizes, and sterilizes. Most labs SHOULD be using HPLC quality so no contaminates are present for their reagents and experiments. Your everyday person would normally use the RO type (example: BRITA filters, portable filters for hiking) for removing chlorine, parasites and most bacteria.

[HVH]

Thank you, Tecumseh for your kind post. It would be interesting to find out the best way to get rid of those spores. Maybe it would have to be a combination of treatments. Who knows?
Zane, thanks for explaining the iodine. Do you think it's still effective if diluted? Does it smell bad or linger?
HVH, in regards to your question about the UV, I see that UV is not often used in combo with RO filtration system (at least in the lab settings). Most people have either the RO system that removes salt, chlorine, parasites, and larger bacteria (not smaller bacteria or viruses so not really considered sterile; it's a small step above tap water in quality) or a much more expensive HPLC quality water filtration system that removes every bacteria, virus, chemical, mineral, deionizes, and sterilizes. Most labs SHOULD be using HPLC quality so no contaminates are present for their reagents and experiments. Your everyday person would normally use the RO type (example: BRITA filters, portable filters for hiking) for removing chlorine, parasites and most bacteria.

Thera,

I am not trying to be combative so take my questions light heartedly. If I am not mistaken, RO utilizes semi-permeable membranes similar to dialysis membranes. If these membranes have a pore size of around 0.0005 microns how can a small bacteria or virus get across the membrane? I would submit that bacteria will clog an RO unit, but I don't understand how the bacteria/virus can pass through the membrane.

[thera]

My deepest apologies to those of you who are reading these threads and are falling asleep. Sorry. We got a little sidetracked.

HVH,
You are not being combative and no offense will be taken. My previous posts were general statements and I tried not to go too in-depth into the wonderful exciting world of filtration :p
Snoozing, yet?
You are absolutely correct in your RO definition and size of membrane. Hmmm, how to explain? Let me start by saying that when I said that we consider "RO only one small step above tap water" I meant that in a scientific sense not a normal every day usage sort of definition. I apologize for that. We consider it to still be partially "dirty" cause it can still POSSIBLY have contaminates. Yes, RO removes a vast (95%-99%) of all contaminates but we still have that potential 1% - 5% that can contaminate things. RO membranes can fail if clogged, has minute holes, not seated correctly, too much pressure that disrupt the membranes, not maintained properly, etc.
So, let me back off my previous statements and amend to say that RO does remove a significant amount including organics, most bacteria and viruses, but not all. Those that escape the RO thru things like minute holes will most likely be the smaller particles such a smaller bacteria and the tiny viruses.
The HPLC quality water I mentioned earlier is basically an RO system with extra ultrafiltration (to remove those escapees from RO).
Whew, I hope that makes sense. My head hurts now from all this thinking and need a nap now. :D
HVH, your going to keep me on my toes on these forums aren't you? ;)

[HVH]

My deepest apologies to those of you who are reading these threads and are falling asleep. Sorry. We got a little sidetracked.

HVH,
You are not being combative and no offense will be taken. My previous posts were general statements and I tried not to go too in-depth into the wonderful exciting world of filtration :p
Snoozing, yet?
You are absolutely correct in your RO definition and size of membrane. Hmmm, how to explain? Let me start by saying that when I said that we consider "RO only one small step above tap water" I meant that in a scientific sense not a normal every day usage sort of definition. I apologize for that. We consider it to still be partially "dirty" cause it can still POSSIBLY have contaminates. Yes, RO removes a vast (95%-99%) of all contaminates but we still have that potential 1% - 5% that can contaminate things. RO membranes can fail if clogged, has minute holes, not seated correctly, too much pressure that disrupt the membranes, not maintained properly, etc.
So, let me back off my previous statements and amend to say that RO does remove a significant amount including organics, most bacteria and viruses, but not all. Those that escape the RO thru things like minute holes will most likely be the smaller particles such a smaller bacteria and the tiny viruses.
The HPLC quality water I mentioned earlier is basically an RO system with extra ultrafiltration (to remove those escapees from RO).
Whew, I hope that makes sense. My head hurts now from all this thinking and need a nap now. :D
HVH, your going to keep me on my toes on these forums aren't you? ;)

Thanks for being a good sport.

I think from what you have stated regarding RO and what I have read, that RO can fail quite easily and this is where you run into problems. A brand new, intact RO membrane will not allow any viruses of bacteria through any more than a dialysis membrane, but the failure rate is high enough to warrant a backup or additional filter.
I have enjoyed your demeanor and technical leanings.

[kbee]

Thanks for all the posts. There seems to be several potential options to sterilizing equipipment. As I understand it spores are harder to kill than bacteria or virus. I don't know of any other studies besides the ones referenced by Mr Oliver reguarding killing spores. Are UV lights available to the general public? Are they safe to use? I don't want to chance cataracts,skin cancer or wrinkeled skin to demise a few spores. I'm partial to the DNA I started with and want to keep it intact for as long as possible. I like the idea of bleach wash with an alcohol rinse. I know that would be effective for bateria/virus exposure but don't know about spores

[HVH]

Thanks for all the posts. There seems to be several potential options to sterilizing equipipment. As I understand it spores are harder to kill than bacteria or virus. I don't know of any other studies besides the ones referenced by Mr Oliver reguarding killing spores. Are UV lights available to the general public? Are they safe to use? I don't want to chance cataracts,skin cancer or wrinkeled skin to demise a few spores. I'm partial to the DNA I started with and want to keep it intact for as long as possible. I like the idea of bleach wash with an alcohol rinse. I know that would be effective for bateria/virus exposure but don't know about spores

It's hard to approach this topic without considering efficacy. Will 95% efficacy be enough? If not, then is 100% possible? Will a UV-C light cast shadows where spores will survive? Can hypochlorite penetrate wax and get to spores? You will just have to give it a try.
I'm sure you can find UV-C lamps for sale and they are just as safe as a table saw if used correctly. Good Luck!:)

[beemanlee]

Hi, I(newbee) think I have a similar question. I am overhauling some old used supers from my neighbors to make up swarm boxes. I have no idea if they are contaminated w/ anything. Will these be ok to use if I sterilize them? What about Iodine? in my beer making I use iodine instead of bleach which I rinse off due to the taste and possible residue. Iodine wash air dries clean. Just ideas????:D

Zane,
Iodine on the outside of carbon bodys is OK, it does fungi good, but not for the inside. Most health issues are trying to ride our intake of that heavy metal... That's why some of the "Health Nut's" say farmed fish is bad??? They may not like your "farmed honey" with trace element "I" in it at the farmers market.....
Personally, I like to melt down or steam any of the rames that I do not know the history of. With all the stuff the bee can catch, with all the vectors, I play it safe and start with new frames or those I have ran through the melter at high tempature Better way Wax Melter. I set it at 350 F.for wax foundation... and use steam pressure cleaning to blast off the old comb for the plastic into a barrel to salvage the wax.
A beekeeper friend and mentor when I first was learning the ways of commerical beekeeping used a disinfectant that was for killing streptococus at a Hospital Supply. It kills all the stuff that you can't pronounce found in the hospital.... He had a tank that he mixed the stuf in, and would put the combs in submerged for a few days. We would use these frames in making nucs. The bees would clean up all the old brood cacoons that softened and were exfoliating into the center of the cells. They would look just like new comb in a week when we held the frames up to the sun, checking them for brood paterns....
Lee...

[thera]

I agree with HVH, the UV can be used safely if proper precautions are used. Don't stare directly into the UV lamp for obvious reasons. Don't place yourself in front of the UV lamp for very long since it'll give you a nasty burn within a couple of mintues. Unfortunately, I have experienced this first hand. I was using just a pair of UV blocking glasses and not a full face shield and received a nice red face (with white raccoon area around the eyes). :eek:

[thera]

Thanks for being a good sport.

I think from what you have stated regarding RO and what I have read, that RO can fail quite easily and this is where you run into problems. A brand new, intact RO membrane will not allow any viruses of bacteria through any more than a dialysis membrane, but the failure rate is high enough to warrant a backup or additional filter.
I have enjoyed your demeanor and technical leanings.


HVH, a pleasure discussing with you. You are most correct about an RO working great if it's new and taken care of with timely maintanence. I am sure dialysis machines would be fastidiously maintained (at least I hope they would).

[HVH]

HVH, a pleasure discussing with you. You are most correct about an RO working great if it's new and taken care of with timely maintanence. I am sure dialysis machines would be fastidiously maintained (at least I hope they would).

Thera,

I put in my two cents on another post about Nosema and indicated there that a strong protease might work to clean up hives. You can get a cheap batch from the grocery store as meat tenderizer. I might try this for fun some day, but not having an infection, I personally don't have the motivation that others might have. A protease would likely dissolve the cocoons and kill AFB and other pests without adding anything noxious to the hive. It would still be wise to rinse out the protease after it did it's job.

[thera]

Thanks, HVH, I'll check out your post. Only thing I've used meat tenderizer on is jellyfish stings because of the papain (protease). Don't know the effectiveness against a spore.

[hummingberd]

Can clorox be used on comb? All of my comb is natural cell and I would like to preserve it if possible. Is there any dilution to the clorox? Spray on or soak?

I wouldn't use clorox. It does NOT biodegrade and will be left in the comb as long as you have it. I have a hard time believing the bees would use it if it smells like clorox either.

[HVH]

I wouldn't use clorox. It does NOT biodegrade and will be left in the comb as long as you have it. I have a hard time believing the bees would use it if it smells like clorox either.

They sure like bleachy pool water. I use bleach at about 1 cup per 50 gallons of syrup to feed bees - really helps to reduce the growth of fungi. I read about this in ABJ a few months ago (I think it was ABJ and not BC).

[kbee]

Doesn't the chlorine dissipate into the air easily? It sure smells like it does. If there is residual on the surfaces couldn't it be flushed away by plain water?