Bevelled bars

[Adrian Quiney WI]

I like the idea of bevelling the top bars by ripping 45 degree bevels on each side and leaving the apex of the V as the comb guide. Then melting some wax over it. Does anyone know how wide that apex should be? I saw that Mr. Bush was a proponent of the V bevelled bar and was also wondering if he had any further insights to share about it. Thanks again, Adrian.

[Shapleigh's Bees]

I'm sure MB will be in to expand. His KTBH design is so simple I could build it. Most of the V's were ripped from whatever scrap my brother and I could scrounge from the basement, garage and barn. The "one by" lumber is about 3/4 of an inch thick and that limits how wide your guides will be.

From his site: 34- triangles cut from the corner of a one by 3/4" by 3/4" by 1" by 13"

[EngineeringBeek]

I did a modified bevelled bar in the hives i recently built. I have yet to test this design but I think it should work out well. I will try to get a picture up sometime soon.

[Michael Bush]

I just set the table saw to 45 degrees and run a one by through with the fence where it will just make a triangle. As mentioned above, the three sides end up about 3/4" by 3/4" by 1". I don't wax them. You can if you like, but sometimes the wax doesn't adhere that well but when the bees make their own it's really stuck on well. It think the combs are better attached if you DON'T wax them.

[EngineeringBeek]

Ok, here are the pictures of my bevelled bars. May be quite difficult for somebody without the proper tools, but if you can, I think they combine the best of everything. (not tested yet)

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~colchimd/pictures/bar1.jpg
http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~colchimd/pictures/bar2.jpg

[janvanhamont]

On one of my trips to Nigeria I met an American Missionary who made more money with beekeeping than with teaching at the university of Ibadan. In his free time he was instrumental in teaching the young Nigerians the art of beekeeping . All what they used was top bar hives and the bees where real hot, typical African bees. Each time he returned to his home base he would with the help of the parischioners stock up on bee equipment. Some of the support group would provide him with top bar slats which which they machined as a V under 45 degrees. He used no wax and had the bees do all the work. The local beekeepers who had no such machining capability would use a flat top bar on which they would nail another smaller flat bar for the bees to attach the comb to. For some of the beekeepers this cost was still too much. He showed them how to use the vein of a banana tree leave, so it looked to me (he called it another name). With a cutlass the Nigerians would shop it to size and remove the leave part. What remained was a perfect part of of the vein with the V already provided.
When I went to see him last time I was there, my club had provided me with some financial support. Some others donated gloves, veils and hive tools. I had gotten here at a local auction as part of the lot a whole bunch of chemical suits and gloves. I took a few sets with me a the guys where in heaven with these gifts.
Now I am making a new shipment to Nigeria and will include the rest of those suits and a solar melter. With top bar hives a lot of wax is produced.
The name of the missionary's name was father Kenny but I do not remember which state he was from. He was pretty old and Nigeria was his home. He was even given the Nigerian nationality. His efforts are to be admired. I will see him again on my upcoming trip to Nigeria this summer. I which I could post the video I have on his operation but I need some help to get this posted.

[Wojtek]

I have tried very similar kind which I built a few years ago, (slightly narrower tip) but I abandoned it. Still in use, nothing bad, but I prefer the one with triangular tip.
See these picures. I experiment also with bars with a holes. To early for my definite opinion about it.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/BarsComp.jpg

If you have time try to brows through internal links of my home page. May be you could find something interesting I pictures. Text is in Polish.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Wojtekshives2.html

Wojtek

[Shapleigh's Bees]

Is your site translated into english? Those hives are really beautiful.

[Wojtek]

Thanks Shapleigh's Bees for the nice words. I am glad that you like it.
No, there is no English version, however I have made video, in two parts ‘First step” and “The second step” This is in Polish but it will be in English version too. The second step is almost ready. My English narration is awful but I think that it will be understandable.

[EngineeringBeek]

I have tried very similar kind which I built a few years ago, (slightly narrower tip) but I abandoned it. Still in use, nothing bad, but I prefer the one with triangular tip.
See these picures. I experiment also with bars with a holes. To early for my definite opinion about it.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/BarsComp.jpg

If you have time try to brows through internal links of my home page. May be you could find something interesting I pictures. Text is in Polish.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Wojtekshives2.html

Wojtek

What was the reason for abandoning that design? Did the bees just not do what you wanted them to do?

[Shapleigh's Bees]

Thanks Shapleigh's Bees for the nice words. I am glad that you like it.
No, there is no English version, however I have made video, in two parts ‘First step” and “The second step” This is in Polish but it will be in English version too. The second step is almost ready. My English narration is awful but I think that it will be understandable.

Your english is wonderful in print. I'm certain anyone will understand your narration.

I'll print everything out and have my wife's Dziadziu explain.

[Wojtek]

What was the reason for abandoning that design? Did the bees just not do what you wanted them to do?
No, the bees do what they decide to do. If they decide to deviate from a straight line they will do it in any case and it takes some additional things to make them go straight. I abandoned it for two reasons:
1. 2 passes on table saw for “V” shape in stead of 4.
2. Easer to scrub a wax and clean it from old wax.

Several years ago, when preparing to build KTBH I found a lot of advices from so called experienced beekeepers but obviously not experienced in TBH’s. There were advices to make a groove and fill it with a wax, to put waxed string in the middle, to put a strip of foundation, and similar advices. All of this I found not necessary. Completely flat bottom without any wax will do too in a case of emergency. The only thing which is the must is the width of bar, at least in my opinion as inexperienced backyard bee hobbyist. Fairly leveled hive and may be rather precisely leveled is important too.
So, now I am a bit more careful in selecting authorities.

I have learned a lot from literature and from this forum and other forums, and there will be never enough knowledge. One of the results of it is my own definition of “experience in beekeeping”, which is:
Amount of years of repeating the same errors/wrong.

Wojtek

[EngineeringBeek]

Ok, that sets my mind at ease a little. I don't use a table saw. I use a trim/molding cutter thing (I'm not sure its name, its my uncles) and an angled cutter that does a great job of cutting that shape. Only two passes, and it cuts it very precisely.

[Shapleigh's Bees]

trim/molding cutter thing

Router. Good idea. And cheaper than a table saw.

[EngineeringBeek]

Router. Good idea. And cheaper than a table saw.

Well, I don't think its a router either. Its kind of like a jointer but its I don't think thats what it is. I'll check and see.

[BWrangler]

Hi Guys,

I've tried using the bevel but found it didn't work any better than a wax filled kerf. I abandoned it also, as ripping it was a little dicey on my table saw. It was much safer to just cut the curf.

My experience with harvesting cut comb from shallow frames indicate that a horizontal type foundation might be a better bet than any other method. Check out:

www.bwrangler.com/bee/thor.htm

Regards
Dennis

[Shapleigh's Bees]

Dennis, I've been all over your site and as a very new beek, I have to say it has my head spinning. I am pretty sure the tbh is the best thing for me and my bees and we'll see how it goes.

Do you think the strip would affect cell size?

It would be difficult for me to build this season as I only have a few ounces of wax and (obviously) no mold. I'm thinking your mold might be a roller device that's run over the strip of wax while it's warm.

I hope the wedge works well for me in the interest of keeping it simple. But your starter strip is a feat of engineering.

[EngineeringBeek]

Router. Good idea. And cheaper than a table saw.

Ok, I was back at my uncle's shop today. It's a Delta "Shaper" for shaping the edges of molding, trim, cabinetry, window sills, etc. He just happens to have a cutter that works excellent for that shape of top bar.

[BWrangler]

Hi Guys,

>It would be difficult for me to build this season as I only have a few ounces of wax and >(obviously) no mold. I'm thinking your mold might be a roller device that's run over the strip of >wax while it's warm.

It's a neat idea. I saw a picture of a similar device. It was an antique from Switzerland. And It resembled a miniature wooden rolling pin with the zig zag pattern of a comb's midrib lightly inscribed around the center. Is such a device still available in Europe?

It would be easy to include the initial imprint of the cell wall along with the zig zag on such a device. A pattern could be drawn on a hardwood roller. And then burnt into the rollers surface. The roller could be soaked in water to cool it and prevent sticking.

And the roller could include a couple of ridges, slightly wider than a top bar's width, which would function as a guide

Maybe it's time to think outside the mold :>)))

I'm not sure that a wooden roller would functionally leave as deep an impression as I would like. But maybe it's not needed.

Back before small cell foundation was available, I tried to make a small cell foundation mold and experimented with bisk fired ceramics. It might make an ideal substance for such a roller as it can absorb lots of water. Ceramics functions longer and releases better than wood.

Regards
Dennis

[BWrangler]

Hi Guys,

>Do you think the strip would affect cell size?

I think it could if it isn't close to what the bees want. My measurements indicate their natural range is fairly wide. And 5.4mm to 5.6mm would seem to be ideal. Maybe that's why 5.4mm large cell foundation gets accepted and drawn out so much easier than 4.9mm.

It seems the bees can quickly and efficiently move down from a larger cell size to a smaller one. Moving in the other direction gives them some trouble. See: http://www.bwrangler.com/bee/nsta.htm

Let's see what other have measured.

Regards
Dennis