rabbet jointed or dove tailed hive bodies

[dasmaus]

I have seen these two different types of hive bodies but have not been able to find out any information on what the differences between them are. Does anyone have any insight they would not mind helping a newbee with?

[drobbins]

the rabbeted joints leave less exposed end grain so in theory they should last longer (less rot)
the "dove tailed" are actually called box joints and look way kool and are more traditional
I use the box joints since I like the look of them
don't take my advice, I often do dumb stuff because it's the way I want to do it:)
the rabbeted boxes make more sense (unless you really like the look of box joints like me)
use plenty of glue, it supplies all the strength

Dave

[BeeCurious]

I often do dumb stuff because it's the way I want to do it:)

Dave

Dave, Can I use that line as my signature?


dasmaus,

I just bought 18 8-frame mediums from Betterbee and screwed them together with Titebond III glue. They are nicely cut and as drobbins said, they look nice. Since your in NY, you'll do well to buy your heavy stuff from Betterbee. You will be buying from other suppliers too.


I'm just starting up a couple of hives (and some nucs) and I've bought from:
Dadant
Mannlake
Betterbee
Miller
W.T. Kelley
Rossman
and Brushy Mountain

And my bees are coming from somewhere else.

As for a comparison of 8 and 10 frame equipment... visit:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

As for me, I drank the 8-Frame, all medium, small cell "Cool Aid". But than again...

"I often do dumb stuff because it's the way I want to do it" to quote drobbins.

[drobbins]

:)

it's probably a good idea to stick with one supplier as much as you can
they don't all use the exact same dimensions and if you mix equipment you can run into some minor issues with "bee space"
not a big deal, but it's just as well to get boxes from whoever has the cheapest shipping and stick with them
(have you folks noticed shipping costs are going through the roof):eek:
the quote is free for the taking, I'm sure I'm not the first to do dumb stuff because it's what I wanted to do:)

Dave

[HVH]

Box joints are much stronger than rabbit joints. If you take a close look at a box joint you will notice a huge amount of surface area for glue contact. Also the surfaces that make glue contact are long grain instead of end grain (rabbit joints). A judicious application of a good exterior oil based paint should keep the water out of the end grain.
I like to assemble the box joints with polyurethane glues, which are a pain to work with because they don't clean up with water, they set slowly, and they expand. Titebond III works OK and doesn't have any of the problems that poly glues have, but I have found that the expansion of the poly glue will fill up and beyond the joint which helps to keep water out later. Once assembled I paint with an exterior oil alkyd paint making certain to fill up the end grain. If you got three beeks together you would likely get four opinions on this subject. A lot of people won't go to the trouble that I do, but I hate it when a box filled with honey turns into a parallelogram during lifting. I have some Rossman boxes that I love because they are made from Cypress, but they ended up being the first boxes to collapse because they were constructed with rabbit joints. Sure, you can compensate with screws and such, but the idea is to let the glue do the work of holding the joint together and of excluding moisture.

[Joel]

"but I hate it when a box filled with honey turns into a parallelogram during lifting." :D

We use box joints and resin glue and screws. Usually the rabbited frame rests (where the wood is thin) or the bottoms edges go long before the joints. I wil say some of the oldest and best hive bodies I have (20 yrs) were some I bought in a "deal". They are plywood with rabbit joints and western handles. I've done my best to kill them off but I think once again they're worth a new coat of paint this year!

[drobbins]

you guy's will notice that I was very ambiguous in my answer and tried to keep up the tradition of "ask 3 beekeepers, get 6 answers"
do your part:)

Joel, good job with the "we use box joints" but "the best boxes I ever had were rabbet jointed plywood"
the plywood part throws a nice twist in there:D

the bottom line is they're just boxes, they all work:)

dasmaus, sorry, it's been a long winter and cabin fever is setting in

Dave

[Joel]

{good job with the "we use box joints" but}

Just doing my part to keep up the confusion um, I mean mystery, that is beekeeping! :)

[drobbins]

:):):)

[Steve717]

I like to assemble the box joints with polyurethane glues, which are a pain to work with because they don't clean up with water, they set slowly, and they expand.

What brand polyurethane glue do you recommend?
Where is a good place to buy it?

[Dan Williamson]

I prefer the rabbeted corners. Just my preference!

[carbide]

I prefer the rabbeted corners. Just my preference!

Ditto. IMHO they are easier to cut and join together. I also cut my boxes out of 3/4" exterior plywood and get 6 complete deep boxes out one 4' x 8' sheet. Cost: About $6.00 each including the screws and glue.

[Troutsqueezer]

I shouldn't be doing this. I really shouldn't....I hate nit-picky people. Oh well,

Box joints and finger joints are the same thing. Squared edges. Dovetail joints are angled. So technically, box joints and dovetails aren't the same thing, technically, realistically, practically, obnoxiously.

I hate myself.

[Kieck]

Don't hate yourself, Troutsqueezer. You're right.

I've seen very, very few beehives with dovetailed corners, but many with box (or finger) joints.

And, if amount of exposed end grain is of vital concern, why not miter the corners?

[pcelar]

I use the box joints since I like the look of them
I ordered assembled jointed boxes and received first one as rabbited. They made mistake. They said they will send others as jointed. Should I return this one or keep it?

[HVH]

What brand polyurethane glue do you recommend?
Where is a good place to buy it?

Home Depot has poly glue with a picture of a Bull on the label. There is also a Gorilla poly glue.

[John D.]

There was an article in the Dec07./Jan08 issue of Wood Magazine where they tested various wood joints applicable to doors & drawers. The two strength tests were the pull apart & shear (parallelogram thing) testing. The pull apart tests were all well over 1000 lbs. before failure with the box joint (to no one's surprise) being the strongest at about 2000lbs. The glue surfaces as already mentioned (face-grain to face grain vs end-grain to face-grain or end-grain) were significant factors. The shear tests for the box joint & the rabbet w/nails both came in at 84lbs & 73 lbs respectively before joint failure. For those that like to make their own bodies, you might want to check out the lock rabbet joint. It had a higher pull apart strength (1505 lbs) & shear strength (94 lbs) than the rabbet joint w/nails.
Since our application as beekeepers doesn't permit the use of a drawer bottom to resist shear failure, hence enter nails, screws, staples or whatever. With nails or screws you can reinforce both sides of a box joint whereas with the rabbet joint nails or screws are usually on the ends. Using a pneumatic nailer might give more options to reinforcing the rabbet joint without splitting but I have never tried it. IMHO hive construction with either joint is less of an issue than protecting the wood from moisture.
As a hobbyist, I don't have the equipment to hot dip so I caulk all end grain, prime & paint. I live in a high humidity locale where latex acrylic is the preferred exterior paint. Since the lead was removed from the oil based paints, it tends to mold more in my climate. The problem with latex is that it sticks to itself & makes the edges hard to pry apart so I rub the edges with parafin which seems to help.
In another article, Fine Woodworking in it's Aug. 07 issue did a glue test using type I PVA (waterproof Titebond III), slow set epoxy, PVA glue (yellow glue), liquid hide glue, hot hide glue, polyurethane glue. I've listed the glues in the order that their test ranked them according to the average force it took to break their joints with the type I PVA being the strongest. They were surprised that the Titebond III was stronger in their tests than the epoxy. Their comment on the polyurethane glue was as follows: "The surprise of the test was this glue's poor showing. The snug joints were poor, and the loose joints were unacceptable. Polyurethane may be a tough finish, but it isn't a tough glue".

[MapMan]

Yes, ditto John D - I've found that polyurethane glues tend to sit on the surface more than PVAs which sink (bond) into the wood surface. And I really hate the foaming and expansion. It has its purposes on some oily woods like Ipe or Teak, though.

MM

[HVH]

There was an article in the Dec07./Jan08 issue of Wood Magazine where they tested various wood joints applicable to doors & drawers. The two strength tests were the pull apart & shear (parallelogram thing) testing. The pull apart tests were all well over 1000 lbs. before failure with the box joint (to no one's surprise) being the strongest at about 2000lbs. The glue surfaces as already mentioned (face-grain to face grain vs end-grain to face-grain or end-grain) were significant factors. The shear tests for the box joint & the rabbet w/nails both came in at 84lbs & 73 lbs respectively before joint failure. For those that like to make their own bodies, you might want to check out the lock rabbet joint. It had a higher pull apart strength (1505 lbs) & shear strength (94 lbs) than the rabbet joint w/nails.
Since our application as beekeepers doesn't permit the use of a drawer bottom to resist shear failure, hence enter nails, screws, staples or whatever. With nails or screws you can reinforce both sides of a box joint whereas with the rabbet joint nails or screws are usually on the ends. Using a pneumatic nailer might give more options to reinforcing the rabbet joint without splitting but I have never tried it. IMHO hive construction with either joint is less of an issue than protecting the wood from moisture.
As a hobbyist, I don't have the equipment to hot dip so I caulk all end grain, prime & paint. I live in a high humidity locale where latex acrylic is the preferred exterior paint. Since the lead was removed from the oil based paints, it tends to mold more in my climate. The problem with latex is that it sticks to itself & makes the edges hard to pry apart so I rub the edges with parafin which seems to help.
In another article, Fine Woodworking in it's Aug. 07 issue did a glue test using type I PVA (waterproof Titebond III), slow set epoxy, PVA glue (yellow glue), liquid hide glue, hot hide glue, polyurethane glue. I've listed the glues in the order that their test ranked them according to the average force it took to break their joints with the type I PVA being the strongest. They were surprised that the Titebond III was stronger in their tests than the epoxy. Their comment on the polyurethane glue was as follows: "The surprise of the test was this glue's poor showing. The snug joints were poor, and the loose joints were unacceptable. Polyurethane may be a tough finish, but it isn't a tough glue".
I also read the Fine Woodworking article and was surprised about their results. The poly glue in their test performed poorly. Since my results are anecdotal and their's are empirical, I will have to do a side-by-side this year and track over time. If TitebondIII comes out on top I will be thrilled because it is a pleasure to work with.

[drobbins]

I haven't been keeping bees long enough to have experienced this, but as a general rule, I was under the impression that boxes fail because the wood rots out from under the glue/joint
is this not the case?
isn't this argument kind of a moot point?
I'm talking about boxes made of modern glues, not 30 year old jobs made with what they had then
this is an honest question not an argument
I think paint and preserving the wood is what you need to worry about

Dave

[HVH]

I am not an expert either. With a forum like this, everyone will have different ways of doing things based on need, finances, skill level, available materials and so on. My philosophy is to do as little as possible as cheaply as possible with the goal of not having to do it again anytime soon. It's like that old saying," If you didn't have enough time to do it right the first time, what makes you think you have enough time to do it the second time." I hate assembling frames and boxes because they are mindless tasks that prevent me from doing something else more stimulating. With that said, I have jigs set up for assembly, painting, or anything else that will speed things along. I will pay a little more for paint, glue, wood, wire, or anything else that I see as a future savings (labor). If the boxes last a few more years because of better paint, waterproof glue and the joints are tight I can focus on queen rearing and management schemes.
Water is the number one enemy of wooden ware (I guess bears and fire don't help much either). Some people in this forum prefer to use latex as a water barrier. Latex is a very good barrier, and as some have pointed out, especially over a primer. As long as you can keep the water from swelling the wood (and joints), all is well. Expansion and contraction of the joint will lead to joint failure if the barrier is breached. I use an oil base because the paint is more elastic and can move better with the wood. Just a bunch of personal preference.

[tn gold]

hi all; when i assemble new boxes, i like to paint fiberglass resin on all corners and it helps if you put some on the top where you insert your hive tool. Water can not penatrate the end grain. I love to do it right the first time.Time and money well spent. I like the box joints best.

[Michael Bush]

If you want eight frame box joints you can get them from Miller Bee Supply (Brushy Mt. only seems to have the rabbeted).

There's nothing wroing with rabbeted, but the box joints go together nicely and you can't put them together wrong as easily. :)

There is half as much exposed grain on the rabetted joints.

[HVH]

Don't hate yourself, Troutsqueezer. You're right.

I've seen very, very few beehives with dovetailed corners, but many with box (or finger) joints.

And, if amount of exposed end grain is of vital concern, why not miter the corners?

The surface area is important, but the type of grain is also important. Miter joints are weak because the glue surface is all end grain. Rabbit joints are better because they have more surface area of contact (mostly end grain), but not nearly as much as a box joint which also has 100% long grain contact. Dovetails would be another step up, but who has time to cut them.

[Everett]

Urethane glues require moisture to cure. Air-dried woods may have enough moisture where kiln dried woods will not have enough moisture. Check out the label. It should tell you to wet the joint.

I use box joints for all of the reasons previously brought up. May I add, even though I don't use it, that a lock miter may be ideal for those of you who like mitered joints. This type of joinery addresses the end grain glue problem by exposing face/long grain for gluing.

[beegee]

I like the look of traditional box joints. The only reason I use rabbeted joints is to save time. It's a lot quicker to glue and staple a rabbeted joint than to glue and nail all the edges of a box joint. Easier to make, too, on a table saw or shaper. I use titebond III and 1.25" narrow-crown staples in an air stapler. I just bought a wide-crown stapler but haven't tried it yet.

[Everett]

A coil nailer with 2" (or longer) ring nails makes quick work of nailing box joints. They do take much longer to make using a jig and dado.

[Rodd]

"but I hate it when a box filled with honey turns into a parallelogram during lifting." :D

We use box joints and resin glue and screws. Usually the rabbited frame rests (where the wood is thin) or the bottoms edges go long before the joints. I wil say some of the oldest and best hive bodies I have (20 yrs) were some I bought in a "deal". They are plywood with rabbit joints and western handles. I've done my best to kill them off but I think once again they're worth a new coat of paint this year!

What is "resin glue"? Can you give me some brand names and product names? I Googled "resin glue" and only came up with DAP Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue, a powder that is activated by mixing with water. Is this what you use?

[fish_stix]

HVH; look at your box joints! One side of each tongue is long grain and the other side of the same joint is end grain, hence 50% long grain, not 100%. You are gluing or fastening long grain to end grain same as the rabbeted joint. Over time either joint will rot, 90% of the time at the corners, due to moisture entering the end grain. Therefore to maximize the life of your boxes just make sure you put a lot of paint on the corners and the cut handles where there is end grain exposed. Latex works very well because it forms a pliable coating, like a condom, over the wood and shrinks and swells with the wood without cracking and flaking. Use a good primer like Kilz then 1 or 2 coats of exterior latex and pay special attention to getting max coverage of the end grain.

[brendantm130]

I shouldn't be doing this. I really shouldn't....I hate nit-picky people. Oh well,

Box joints and finger joints are the same thing. Squared edges. Dovetail joints are angled. So technically, box joints and dovetails aren't the same thing, technically, realistically, practically, obnoxiously.

I hate myself.

I'm with you here. I even called Brushy to tell them they had it wrong, box not dovetailed. But I'm a woodworker, and to me it matters.

[Cyrus Brewster]

I am using a half-blind dovetail jig with a router and find it a very stong joint. Lots of glue surface and the wedge effect of the angled dovetails draws everything together. Another nice thing is its self-squaring -- almost never have to clamp it to square it. Once the jig is set up it goes a lot faster than cutting square finger joints.

[Beee Farmer]

I have started using "45 degree locking joint miter" bit in router table and am very pleased with the results. Boxes neatly snap together squaring them is not even necessary as you get precise 45 degree joints, once glue sets they are extreamly strong and no one end wood to draw moisture. Set up is a little time consuming but you can run 100 boxes in just a couple of hours once everything is cut to width and length.

[Joseph Clemens]

Rodd,
Try looking up Resorcinol Resin Glue (http://www.wessex-resins.com/Wessex_Resins_Products/pdf/RESORCINOL%20RESIN%20RS12A-RXS22A.pdf). That's most likely the resin glue being mentioned. I've used this type glue, every so often, since I was a pre-teen working wood with my father. It is strong, waterproof, but toxic and unforgiving with a short open time.

[johng]

I also have noticed that the oil base paint does not make the boxes stick together as bad when stacked up in storage as the latex paint does. I think protecting the joint good with some kind of paint is very important no matter which joint you use.

[HVH]

HVH; look at your box joints! One side of each tongue is long grain and the other side of the same joint is end grain, hence 50% long grain, not 100%. You are gluing or fastening long grain to end grain same as the rabbeted joint.
Sorry for the oversight. I was referring to the fingers not having any end grain. You are right, though, and the trough between fingers does have exposed end grain. I use urethane glue on the end grain as well, not to add much strength, but to exclude water. The box joint still has much more long grain than any of the other joints used (similar to dovetail - not used much).

[wcubed]

Box design choice, assembly techniques, and field service preservation are subjects that are critical to any level of beekeeping where we expect it to last more than a few years. I was stunned by an article on budgeting or figuring cost of an operation where it was suggested including box replacement on a seven-year basis. At the time, my boxes in the field done by the following techniques were as good as new. (with a periodic coat of paint) And those boxes had been in service for up to 20 years.

Another thread on the subject of nails or screws that I didn't have time to respond to at the time, came and went. Will treat that first. The four-sided chisel point of the typical nail insures that it will back out with time. Unless the head end is secured by some means, seasonal expansion and contraction of the nail, longways,(winter/Summer) is the reason. What happens is that during winter contraction the wood fibers at the point close up a fraction, and during summer expansion, the head end pushes back a fraction. Takes several seasons, but the result is a nail backing out to snag your clothes. Screws, where there are more threads in the lower wooden piece than the head end do not back out with seasonal temp changes. Spiral nails have the same advantage.

Several of the above posts discuss bonding of the wooden pieces. Have not tried most of them, but have been more than satisfied with White Lightning caulking. Comes in a tube for use in a standard caulking gun. Every 10 years they increase the guarentee by that number (now 40 yr) - can't guaretee it for more years than it's been in the field. It's cheap, easy to use (fast), long lasting, and cures hard and tough. Unlike some of the caulking found in the box stores that cure into a rubbery or flexible state. Try an old hardware store that has been in business for more than 40 years. When you put this stuff in a joint, it's like a welded joint in metal. I put a very thin bead between stacked boxes to fumigate for wax moths - had to chisel the boxes apart.

Several of the above posts treat the sealing of cross cut grain. Box panels normally are cut from soft woods to support milling of the finger joints. In sawing the soft wood, the saw tears out soft wood between the harder growth rings and leaves a rippled surface. To get a good bond on those surfaces, the space between the ridges (rings) must be filled with whatever adhesive you use.

Will come back to this on the night shift.

Walt

[wcubed]

Before assembling box panels, build a frame of the type to be used in the box. Use that frame to measure the bee space that will be provided between frames when installed in the hive stack. Accurate bee space will be a time saver for the life of the box. Shoot for 5/16 between frames. A 1/16 off either way will still be in tolerance. If necessary, trim the top or bottom of the box panels to get the 1/4 to 3/8 bee space before assembly. If you get lucky and the parts you have meet requirements, continue to buy your woodenware from the same supplier. If not, shop for a source that comes out right. Note that plastic frame sources do not generally provide box parts to match.

Also note that the bees have a propensity for building interbar comb between levels when the top bar is plastic. With wood top bars very little interbar comb is generated if bee space is maintained.

With bee space covered, you are ready to assemble a box. Put the pieces together snugly for a fit check and then bump the corners apart about a quarter inch. With the tip of the tube of white lightning cut on an angle run a bead of caulk up each corner on the inside. As you pass the finger stock, the caulking will switch from one side to the other into the open space. Snug the box parts up again and secure in a square position with clamps or a jig. You will know that you have applied the right amount of caulking if some squishes out of the joint on the outside when parts are fully meshed. (The space in the joint is filled.) Screw the corners together with inch and a half sheet rock screws. In soft wood, drive them slightly below the wood surface. Three are enough for a deep or two for a shallow. Avoid the outside (top and bottom) if the wood tends to split and the thin piece at the top frame rest area is the most vulnerable to splitting. Drive the screw into the next full piece of finger stock. The caulking will secure that top or bottom connection.

The WL squeezed out of the joint has a valuable use. Run your finger up the inside of the joint collecting the excess. The excess left in the corner relieves the colony of coving the corner with propolis and adds a mini corner brace when cured. The excess on the outside can be finger massaged into the cross cut grain of the finger stock ends. No matter how careful you are with thick paint, an air bubble trapped in the rough surface of cross cut grain will pop when you look away - leaving a path for water entry. Rubbing some WL into that surface will protect it from water penetration for a lifetime.

With the box assembled, your are not quite ready to paint. With a rasp or sander, take a little wood off the outside top corners, leaving the wood on the inside of the corner. This makes a crack you can see for insertion of the hive tool when you want to separate boxes in the stack. Now you are ready to paint.

Never having had money to burn, I look for ways that are inexpensive and effective. I use latex and I buy "oops" paint from the box stores. Primers are expensive. Latex has the advantage of not needing a primer. By watering down a portion of the latex paint, it can be used as a primer. The watered down latex penetrates the wood fibers and gets a good bond to the wooden surface. Subsequent coats bond well to the watered down primer of the same type. Cheap and effective.

I have a picture of my 250 lbs sitting on a deep built by these guidelines with the box standing on a corner and my weight on the diaginal corner. The WL was cured and I could actually bounce on the box without distorting it to parallogram. Try that with your nailed box and see what happens.

Sorry for the long post, but I'm not likely to write the article that the picture was taken for.

Walt