CCD and Whats going on!!

[Ian]

You know, I really cant make sence of things anymore than that friendly old shmuck on street.
I am a proffessional beekeeper, I know my craft well, and basically am current on my beekeeping news.
BUT, I cant make heads or tails of this CCD problem. Seemed to me nobody, except for the somebodies knew what to make of last years CCD problem, and they left all the nobodies asking questions between eachother to figure it out!
Same this year, losses in California, words weather related losses, and word of CCD again. the severity, I dont know, but nobody seems to know. One guy says 150K of bees short, the other says thousands for rent yet in the paper,. One says losses due to bad beekeepeing and poor weather and luck, the other says CCD at its worst!

What the heck is going on!

I am starting to think all the critisism of the medias coverage of all this is only but the beekeepers fault themselves. Wheres the common voice?

[Keith Jarrett]

of all this is only but the beekeepers fault themselves.

Hmmm.

Well Ian, you will here for the next umpteen years how we were short in the almonds due too CCD. Gee this story is getting old.

Would someone please flip over the record, they wore out the BEE side of this album.

[tecumseh]

well Ian as a number of folks have suggested starting way back when Heck was a pup the reasons for CCD are liable to be numerous (a great number of variable) and thereby 'the reason' complex*. because the problem raised it ugly head in a fairly quick fashion we now do know any number of things that we previously didn't. a couple of new pathogens have been identified that we use to not even look for (because we assumed they were not there, but they were)... plus (I gleamed this from the latest Gleanings) lab result have id a list of herbicide, pesticides and numerous other nasties within hives that are too long to even present here**. of course most knowledgeable beekeepers likely suspected this last item but didn't have the skill or lab equipment to turn 'I suspect' into 'I know' (and of course some folks don't perceive the difference).

as to large numbers of hives unrented in California.... I think the number you suggested was 1000. when you compare this number to the 1.3 million hives required for pollination of the almonds the 1000 is a fairly insignificant number(something like .o1%). each year the automakers produce several million auto units and my GUESS is come the end of the model year that there will be more unsold new cars on the lots than this relative number would represent. I suspect there will be a lot more hives than this that were taken into the almonds where the grower/broker won't pay the beekeeper (but of course at this point in time I am speculating-although it would definitely conform to prior years history). my LARGER point really being that managing production on that large a scale with that small a cushion is really quite remarkable (more so since we are talking about agriculture and not manufacturing here).

psychology: there are of course folks who wish to discourage folks into NOT taking bees to the almonds since they likely see this as some competition that they desire to minimize. this pshychologically is some times referred to as a 'poverty mentality' where the pie is perceive as only so large and anyone else that might get a piece of the pie is quite evidently limiting how much pie they can eat themselves...

*I will inform you that when systems get complex enough and the variable within the system are of significant numbers that without the aid of computer calculations the human mind left to itself would NEVER come to a correct ANSWER. Prior to computers folks often times used what I call 'a horse back estimate' for complex systems and this worked to some degree although it was quite common to be wrong about as often as you were right.

**this of course represent an unseen (ie hidden) cost to the beekeeper and is quite a bit like a small tab created at a bar by someone who drinks everyday and forgets to pay the tab (because they're drunk) until several years later when they are forced to go sober . each beer really didn't cost that much but the collective tab is more than most people would imagine.

finally Ian writes:
Wheres the common voice?

tecumseh replies:
gosh Ian*** you are now talking like one of those socialist Canadians. I guess the next thing I can expect is that you might wish a fair price for whatever product you might produce. After that perhaps a living wage?
all the beekeepers here are RABID individualist... this mean they will likely ALL walk to the poor house one at a time by themselves.

***hopefully you will recognize this ha ha is not really pointed at you Ian....it is just that tecumseh doesn't do the funny face thingee.

[Keith Jarrett]

I think the number you suggested was 1000. when you compare this number to the 1.3 million hives required for pollination of the almonds the 1000 is a fairly insignificant number(something like .o1%). .

Tec's,

1.3 mil being covered speaks for it self, if there was this ccd.... that number would be......

[JohnK and Sheri]

Hi Keith
I am hearing **** lost 35K+, is this not so?
We personally know of one beek that lost 6000, another that lost 1000 (of about 3000), I'm sure there are others I haven't heard of. These are in the area ours are in, down Fresno way. I am also hearing the northern beeks are having a better time for some reason. That 1000 colonies shouldn't have any trouble at all getting rented.
I am not sure of the cause of these losses, certainly not asserting CCD here, although that is the speculation on ****; the bees are dead nonetheless.
That would have computed to quite a bee surplus without those losses, especially if they aren't isolated to my examples. Do you think there is STILL a surplus?

Tec, as for Keith trying to discourage beeks from going to Calif by suggesting there is a surplus, not sure if that would be the most effective strategy. The scary part of California is the possibility of losing your colonies to something or other, whether it be CCD, starvation, theft, PPB or whatever. It is not an easy thing to do, nor inexpensive, keeping bees rentable in California.
Sheri

[LSPender]

It is hard to admit losses, especially to fellow beeks because of perception of poor managment. One thing I was reminded this week of is that we are facing forces we can not control until we understand them.

Some of these statements probably should be on other threads but they do tie together

Pesticides/ Chemicals that are now sytemic in nature and get in food chain. PPB can effect the bee hive. In the old days a pestice hit killed the bee fast. Now its in the food source that is being feed to the larve.

Pesticides can be picked up thru water sources, do you know what your local vector control district is using?, Do you know all pesticiedes & chemicals the farmers are using active & inert.

Mass migration to CA, currently a very high % of all bee hive in USA show up in the big valley and share with each other, then go home to share with others.

How are pesticides tested on bees, I just learned this, it the LD50 test, adult bees are sprayed with test product at different levels concentration until 50 % of adult bees die, that is then deemed harmful to bees. Has any product been tested on a operating hive and see what happens to the next brood cycle?

Almond bloom it self is late this year, South Valley, with the later varieties starting to bloom later this week. People are still inspecting hives and still chance of placment of good hives, I have seen both good & bad hive myself.

Larry

[Keith Jarrett]

Hi Keith
>I am hearing **** lost 35K+, is this not so?

I believe so, this all took place months ago, no surprize.

>We personally know of one beek that lost 6000,

Yes, DT, came by the house to talk about this matter.

>Tec, as for Keith trying to discourage beeks from going to Calif by suggesting there is a surplus, not sure if that would be the most effective strategy. Sheri

Gee, I never implyied that, but if they want to bring in five framers.... let'em .

I had a keeper that I used to take care of his bees from out-of-state,
the last I heard this year was four loads going back empty to N. Dakota.
This keeper struggle with good management, last fall he was still pulling honey in Oct.

We will soon flush the poor outfits out and the good ones will remain.

[JohnK and Sheri]

>>>We will soon flush the poor outfits out and the good ones will remain.<<<

The problem seems to be that the "poor" ones and the "good" ones seem to interchange every year. It is difficult being consistent. Maybe the definition of "good outfit" will be one that can have consistently good bees for years on end. With the changing repertoire of parasites and diseases there are very few beeks of any size that would fit in that description.
I guess the bigger some try to get, the bigger the issues of good management become.
Sheri

[Keith Jarrett]

[QUOTE=JohnK and Sheri;295109The problem seems to be that the "poor" ones and the "good" ones seem to interchange every year. With the changing repertoire of parasites and diseases there are very few beeks of any size that would fit in that description.
I guess the bigger some try to get, the bigger the issues of good management become.
Sheri[/QUOTE]

Hi Sheri,

There are many keepers here in Calif that run 10 frame bees in the almonds year after year.

I think the drop and run days are over for the out-of-staters.

Tomarrow I start treating for mites.....

for some of the out-of-stater....
well there still whatching "I LOVE LUCY".

I still don't think alot of keepers know what good management means.

[RDY-B]

Hi Sheri,

There are many keepers here in Calif that run 10 frame bees in the almonds year after year.

I think the drop and run days are over for the out-of-staters.

Tomarrow I start treating for mites.....

for some of the out-of-stater....
well there still whatching "I LOVE LUCY".

I still don't think alot of keepers know what good management means.
What about the otufit that had the loss-whats your opinon of there operation-RDY-B

[Keith Jarrett]

What about the otufit that had the loss-whats your opinon of there operation-RDY-B

RDY, not sure what (or who's) loss you are referring too.

But I can say this, at the Sacramento meeting, many large keepers were there. One asked when was the last time they had a count on V mite & nosema spores. Some hadn't check at all, in other words, they had no clue what kind of shape thier bees were in, all they said was they treated.

Hmmm,
MY bees must be good because I treated, don't know how effective it was, but I treated.

That's the shape of the bee industry at this time.

[Joel]

Ian, thanks for starting a post on what I think is on many of our minds, Why the huge divide in information, obviously both sides can't be Accurate and the someplace in the middle is hard to peg from a distance.

{ still don't think alot of keepers know what good management means.}

Keith, having had the chance to talk to you and make a virtual tour of your operation I think what you call good beekeeping is what really should be called exceptional beekeeping. It must become the norm for those who want to succeed. It impacted us! I think you are on target, the day of the quick buck speculator who keeps bees as a commidity are clearly soon to pass. I think that will be a good thing for the industry. This business requires we care about our stock as much as the buck. True in every facet of farming.

{I think the drop and run days are over for the out-of-staters}

The sooner the better! We don't need all the crap equipment and bees being dumped on the industry. I don't care if poor practices wipe out the irresponsible guy (I'm not saying Adde or anyone in particular) but what happens to 40K colonies of possibly infected/affected equipment? Does anyone believe their going to be put in storage during "retirement" until we find out what's going, to languish waiting for waxmoths and time to degrade them. They'll be sold to the lowest bidder who may spread them nation wide for everyone to share. Combs laced with chemicals, disease, and death. Like all speculators the dollar will guide the outcome. I recently started a post because the economics of the Califonia "Bee Gold Rush" doesn't make sense to me. No one has been able to offer an explanation. I'm betting it is starting to look much less lucrative to quite a few long haul beekeepers right now as well. It sounds like a large number of speculators jumping for the short buck instead of looking at the long term success of their operation. The concept Almond Growers could just keep planting trees at a rate which would require pollination from a majority of commerical beekeepers in the Country to sustain this agricultural bubble is just one more manifestation of the specultive farmer. Profit over pride, quanitity over quality.

{The problem seems to be that the "poor" ones and the "good" ones seem to interchange every year.}

This has to change if we are going to succeed individually and as an industry. I'm as guilty of this as the next person. We hired a hand this year, best thing I've done in many years. In the fall last year, when we had hives killed by mites we realized we just were not making the grade, at least for our bees. Trying to put too much work in too little space. We are gambling that the cost of doing everything right and paying now will earn us huge dividends in the long run. We are putting the best interest of our bees 1st. and will reap the benefits from that. Much less this year, I bet quite a bit more next year. It has become clear there are no cheap, easy or quick answers in Beekeeping. Of course you could read about that in my Great Grand Fathers farm diary from a 120 years ago.

[RDY-B]

THIS post moved to post# 17 -RDY-B

[Keith Jarrett]

Joel,
That was a great post.

Joel, what I can't understand with keepers is,
at the cost of coming to the almonds, shipping treating,feeding ect...
WHY DONT THEY MONITOR THERE HIVES CLOSLY.

[HVH]

I had to either laugh or cry when the first speculations about CCD hit the journals. A lot of hand waving but a bit short on facts. My family sells honey at the local farmers market and I had to smile every time someone asked about cell phone towers of GMO's. Even some influential members of the bee community "believe" CCD is a combination of nutrition, stress, and the kitchen sink. Lots of theories in need of facts. The association of IAPV with CCD seems to be the strongest yet, but we will have to wait to see if purified IAPV is sufficient to cause CCD. I am a little surprised that this data isn't available yet. Getting a pure prep of IAPV from CCD bees is probably the weak link. If the IAPV prep were co-purified with other viruses then causality would be questionable.

[Keith Jarrett]

RDY,

The Calif State Beekeepers Ass. has had there convention for the past three years in Tahoe, second week in Nov.

I'm one of the closes commercial keepers to Tahoe, Yet I been to busy at that time to attend any of them. I sometimes wonder how they get there work done so fast to attend these meeting, when some of us are burdied in work in Nov.

[RDY-B]

RDY, not sure what (or who's) loss you are referring too.

But I can say this, at the Sacramento meeting, many large keepers were there. One asked when was the last time they had a count on V mite & nosema spores. Some hadn't check at all, in other words, they had no clue what kind of shape thier bees were in, all they said was they treated.

Hmmm,
MY bees must be good because I treated, don't know how effective it was, but I treated.

That's the shape of the bee industry at this time.
The beekeepers were determined to go and visit Brett Adee’s “graveyard.” Sacramento National Beekeeping Conference, Brett Adee, who we’ve filmed with before ("The Ghost Bees" was shot on his property; now they are truly ghost bees), commented curtly on the topic of CCD. He stated to a room full of beekeepers that people like to listen to the sound of their own voice. He was slamming beekeepers who had suffered from CCD. He thought that mites caused CCD. He then added that he didn’t have any problems, and left the podium. I gusse the loss came after he had spoke about mites -I feel sad that the loss was so great -which was it mites or CCD -RDY-B http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/

[jjgbee]

Several large brookers are saying we must be short. They are getting calls wanting bees and not many with bees to rent. This info is about 10 days ago. Following this thread, I must agree with Keith Jarret. I would go to large bee conventions and sit in the corner and listen big Beeks. Not at the podium, but at the bar in the evening or out in the hall. The impression I got is they were never sure what their outfit was doing. I know they TREAT a lot more than I ever did. Chemicals,, a little is good, lots must be better. I can not get critical because I quite beekeeping because I was tired of all the stress truing to keep healthy bees. All winter ,I worried about my bees. Now I go hunting and watch my bird dog work.

[RDY-B]

I think one of the things that is coming to light is that -not even great beekeepers are exempt from CCD RDY-B

[Ian]

>>gosh Ian*** you are now talking like one of those socialist Canadians.

Ha ha, tecumseh ***, for a moment there I thought you were throwing slang at me!!
Not sure what socialism has to do with it all, I am far from that, yet it does have its place wheather you like it or not,


*** :)

[Ian]

>>I will inform you that when systems get complex enough and the variable within the system are of significant numbers that without the aid of computer calculations the human mind left to itself would NEVER come to a correct ANSWER.

I deal with contracting on a daily basis, your over thinking yourself.

>>reasons for CCD are liable to be numerous (a great number of variable) and thereby 'the reason' complex*. because the problem raised it ugly head in a fairly quick fashion we now do know any number of things that we previously didn't. a couple of new pathogens have been identified that we use to not even look for (because we assumed they were not there, but they were)... plus (I gleamed this from the latest Gleanings) lab result have id a list of herbicide, pesticides and numerous other nasties within hives that are too long to even present here**. of course most knowledgeable beekeepers likely suspected this last item but didn't have the skill or lab equipment to turn 'I suspect' into 'I know' (and of course some folks don't perceive the difference


Ever more the reason for a collaborative measure to be taken here.

It seems there are a dozen different groups investigating CCD, all coming out with thier own conclusions, and in the midst of it all there is a stronge suggestion that there isnt such a thing as CCD, and its the poor beekeeping management. How am I going to make anything from all of this?

[LSPender]

Kieth, What do you say when you have tested, know what's happening and they still die.

Please be careful in your assessment, until it happens to you, then maybe the tone will be different.

Please do not put a stigma on what we are finding is not our fault or ppm but a change in something unknown.

Wether it be pesticides or nosema C. they are new to all of us and how to work with them.

Also, how to you test for systemic pesticides in your hives?

Larry

[peggjam]

David Hackenburg has stated to 60 Minitues that he has lost 50% of his hives to CCD again this year, as reported by 60 Minitues tonight:(.

[Jeffzhear]

David Hackenburg has stated to 60 Minitues that he has lost 50% of his hives to CCD again this year, as reported by 60 Minitues tonight:(.

I saw that as well; that's terrible!

[Keith Jarrett]

Kieth, What do you say when you have tested, know what's happening and they still die.

Please be careful in your assessment, until it happens to you, then maybe the tone will be different.Larry

Larry,

Testing, as we speak, my V mite ratio "brood / frames of bees time of year " is to high at this time of year, so yes, I will be treating all this week.

Larry, the key to testing is knowing when your bees are in trouble.

You must know your area and what is accepable levels.

This is NOT rocket science. MONITOR MONITOR MONITOR

[Matt Beekman]

Hey Keith. I will start treating tommorw also. My sense of the current almond situation is their are plenty of boxes; but a shortage of good bees. I would be willing to GUESS that 30-50% of the hives in orchards are four frames or less. What do you think? It is a little frustrating competing against beekeepers that don't feed pollen supplement and are happy with substandard quality beehives.

[RDY-B]

Hi MATT whats your take on the big lose coming from ADEE-THey are not rookies in the industry-RDY-B

[LSPender]

Kieth, Monitor what, you say v-mite, I have never had a hive die from mites.

Ask Hackeberg what he has found, maybe nothing has show up on standard tests.

So I will reask the question how do you test for and respond to an unknown problem?

what test for systemic pesticids, what about nosema C. any test that can find what trigers it.


I am a little frustarted with your response to this post, as you discount an unknown and that there is a response to it.

One day hives are good, 2 weeks later a fist full of bees. about the same time for the test results to come back and read high nosema count but not specific on what type A. or C. the lab just assumes C.

Again please understand there are issues that are totally new to the indusrty, we are learning fast but so of the problemes are faster that we are. Let us all work together without pointing a finger at someone else.


Larry

[Matt Beekman]

I may be wrong but I haven't read or heard of any specific numbers / percentages of what Adee's have lost; just that there is a huge gravesite of dead colonies. Even if Adee's lost only 10% of their operation, that would be a large number of deadouts. I would also be cautious of the rumors you hear about the Adee's. Ever play telephone when you were a little kid?

[RDY-B]

I know what you mean about the numbers but it is being called by some to be the largest im sure by now you have seen the article but if not it is here http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:8_C1l4acZF8J:www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/blogs/b :) RDY-B http://www.vanishingbees.com/blog/

[Keith Jarrett]

Kieth, Monitor what, you say v-mite, I have never had a hive die from mites.

what test for systemic pesticids, what about nosema C. any test that can find what trigers it.


I am a little frustarted with your response to this post, as you discount an unknown and that there is a response to it.

One day hives are good, 2 weeks later a fist full of bees. about the same time for the test results to come back and read high nosema count but not specific on what type A. or C. the lab just assumes C.

Again please understand there are issues that are totally new to the indusrty, we are learning fast but so of the problemes are faster that we are. Let us all work together without pointing a finger at someone else.


Larry

Larry I will try this again,

You say nosema A & C. Buy a scope it cost's about $400 and do the test (MONITORING ) yourself ! Do this about once a month!

As far as nosema A or C if you have high levels... TREAT!

Pesticids, that is isolated.

[Brandy]

"Pesticids, that is isolated"

I don't think the amount of pesticide spraying is isolated at all but very widespread all across the country. Just ask any beek close to fields of corn, sunflowers, etc., and any city that participates with city wide spraying for west nile. The idea of systemic pesticides being brought back to the hive just takes it to another level. Scary where this is heading.

[Keith Jarrett]

"Pesticids, that is isolated"

I don't think the amount of pesticide spraying is isolated at all but very widespread all across the country. Just ask any beek close to fields of corn, sunflowers, etc., and any city that participates with city wide spraying for west nile. The idea of systemic pesticides being brought back to the hive just takes it to another level. Scary where this is heading.

Brandy, When I say Isolated, what I mean is, you have a good chance of tracking down what chem's were used in your area, this is if you have reg locations. Most spray applicator's are required to check for bees before application.

Your county ag commissioner's office does a good job with this. So to blame on a unknow , I feel is poor management and not being responsible.

[Brandy]

"Most spray applicator's are required to check for bees before application."

That's what they say, and then the next thing they say is "We didn't know there were any bee's in the area".

It just looks to me that the use of pesticides in use today continues to be as serious a threat to bee's health as mites and nosema.

[MichaelW]

Also, how to you test for systemic pesticides in your hives?
I had no idea how much it costs to run such tests till I asked someone with some experience with it. I mean just the single use equipment, not the 'cost' of the expertise and other associated equipment. It can't be done without serious $.

[blkcloud]

Has Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) been ruled out?:confused:

[Joel]

Pesticide kill (poisoning) would result in the toxins showing up in dead bees, has there been any evidence linking any pesticides to CCD other than anecdoatal suspicions?

[Keith Jarrett]

Pesticide kill (poisoning) would result in the toxins showing up in dead bees, has there been any evidence linking any pesticides to CCD other than anecdoatal suspicions?

Joel, good point, Jeff Pettis said on 60 minutes that IF it were pesticides they would be able to track it.

[Ian]

The thing with pesticides is that it always seems to leave a trail,

[Ian]

>>Has Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) been ruled out?
__________________


Some guys you talk mention it is the reason, blaming OZ'es bees, the next fellow will tell you the link isnt consistant enough to draw that conclusion,

[Joel]

"Has Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus (IAPV) been ruled out?"

It's been pretty much ruled in since the study began. Initially it was found in a majority of CCD hives and not in healthy hives (as are some other factors). Keep in mind there are all kinds of life that exist in bees just like humans and they don't alway kill the host when the host is healthy. Bacteria in the bee gut is just one example where there is symbiosis. That bacteria is negatively affected by Anti-biotics (think about this term, against life) The question at that time is was it (IAPV) a marker or a contributive cause to CCD. Penn State researcher Dianna Cox has recently infected healthy hives with IAPV and is seeing die offs very similar to the CCD image. Still no answers yet though as it may be a combination of stress factors and IAPV or any other not yet realized factor which could include pesticide, nutritional and other stresses. The fact a hive suffers a partial pesticide kill that may not be fatal will still impact the health of the organism without necessarily having pesticide laced bees in the hive at the time of collapse. This combined with other factors (immunodeficiency from Varroa for example) may ultimately add up to collapse. The ultimate weakening of an organism by any or many factors ultimately opens the door for that organism to succumb to any disease vector.

At this point I don't see anyone with any credible information pointing to pesiticides as a root cause of CCD.

[tecumseh]

sheri writes:
Tec, as for Keith trying to discourage beeks from going to Calif by suggesting there is a surplus, not sure if that would be the most effective strategy. The scary part of California is the possibility of losing your colonies to something or other, whether it be CCD, starvation, theft, PPB or whatever. It is not an easy thing to do, nor inexpensive, keeping bees rentable in California.

tecumseh replies:
I didn't think I had named names? however the past history of the california bee keepers in regards to beekeepers from elsewhere going to the almonds has long been know. I myself have suggested to bee keepers (on beesource) that... 'all that gold in california is setting in a bank in beverley hills in someone else's name'... or something line that.

[tecumseh]

first a comment by me:
I will inform you that when systems get complex enough and the variable within the system are of significant numbers that without the aid of computer calculations the human mind left to itself would NEVER come to a correct ANSWER.

Ian replies:
I deal with contracting on a daily basis, your over thinking yourself.

tecumseh responds:
you have quite evidently never dealt with any extemely complex problems.... multivariant analysis, beta analysis, quadratic programming? slugging that a problem with 10,000 variable is not exactly the same as dealing in contracts. Are you still looking for a simple solution to what will likely be a very complex problem?

do you really think that any of the bee genome project would have been doable without modern day computers?

but yes there is no doubt a lot of folks will have to put their collective heads together to come to some resolution (if there is a solution) on this one.

lastly... suggesting that the influence from pesticides and herbicides is isolated and limited seems to me to be painting a pretty rosy picture of modern day agriculture. look behind the barn of any farmer that is producing in volume, count those empty chemical containers and tell me once again that pesticides are limited in their use. furthermore since most (if not all) these chemical are water soluable... where do you think the stuff eventually ends up?

[MichaelW]

Pesticide kill (poisoning) would result in the toxins showing up in dead bees, has there been any evidence linking any pesticides to CCD other than anecdoatal suspicions?

Its my understanding no one has really looked into the pesticide issue with CCD in detail. Its on the list but waiting on money. So it still could be playing a big role, we just don't know and can't know till its investigated.

[BjornBee]

I have now heard at least three separate researchers/research facility lectures on pesticides and CCD, and a host of other well known people in the research arena or well connected people working behind the scenes. Three separate talks from different studies indicated that pesticides have been looked at. And trace amounts of numerous chemicals are found in comb. (Amazing what 30 year old comb keeps) But the highest amount of chemicals found were directly related to beekeeper introduction. Rates of off-label chemical use from beekeepers themselves amounted to the highest level of contamination. That's not to say that a lesser amount of a pesticide of a more deadlier type could have bigger impacts. But the level of these neonicotinoid pesticides are at levels far less than what they think should be found.

Two things to consider.......

1)Multiple chemicals are being mixed by farmers to cut corners in the times application is needed. Spraying once with two chemicals mixed is less than spraying twice. This makes the lower risk individual pesticides, many more times deadlier.

*Know your farmers, know what they use, educate, and adapt to the situation. Get off farms that are not good for bees. The bee industry may need to change before the farmers do.

2) That same point of deadly concoction may be the same factor with the many types of chemicals being found in comb samples. One study noted 22 separate chemicals in the comb. Individually, one may not mean that much. But mixed together, it may become a point that deadly results are seen.

*Beekeepers need to know that chemical being placed in their hives may be reacting or compounding the effects to a higher, more deadly potion. Self contamination by beekeepers is common. Comb rotation and other management strategies need to be implemented.

I think at this point, as was pointed out a year ago, that no Single source for CCD will be found. Its a combination of stress, a suppressed immune system of the bees impacted by mites, further weakening of the immune system and bees internal functions by chemicals and pesticides, and perhaps viral issues we yet do not understand as they can change and mutate.

As a beekeeper....Don't contaminate your hives, be selective where you keep bees, keep mites under control, ensure they are as stress-less as possible by feeding during drought and abnormal weather situations, rotate comb on some level like a 5 year program.

[Barry Digman]

tecumseh replies:
I didn't think I had named names? however the past history of the california bee keepers in regards to beekeepers from elsewhere going to the almonds has long been know. I myself have suggested to bee keepers (on beesource) that... 'all that gold in california is setting in a bank in beverley hills in someone else's name'... or something line that.

tecumseh, ya gotta provide the context for your lyrics quote. Remember that a lot of these folks weren't even born when the song was first sung (1979). The reference is very appropriate for pollinators I think.



All The Gold In California
The Gatlin Brothers

Trying to be a hero, winding up a zero
Can scar a man forever, right down to your soul
Living on the spot light, can kill a man out right
Cause everything that glitters is not gold

And all the gold in California
Is in a bank in the middle of Beverly Hills in somebody else's name
So if you're dreaming about California
It don't matter at all where you played before, California's a brand new game

And all the gold in California
Is in a bank in the middle of Beverly Hills in somebody else's name
So if you're dreaming about California
It don't matter at all where you played before, California's a brand new game

[Keith Jarrett]

tecumseh responds:
you have quite evidently never dealt with any extemely complex problems.... multivariant analysis, beta analysis, quadratic programming? slugging that a problem with 10,000 variable is not exactly the same as dealing in contracts. Are you still looking for a simple solution to what will likely be a very complex problem?

lastly... suggesting that the influence from pesticides and herbicides is isolated and limited seems to me to be painting a pretty rosy picture of modern day agriculture. ?

Are right Tec's Babe,

What I mean when I said ISOLATED is that it would be fairly easly to isolate sprayed hives vs healthy hives and back track there trail.

Surely a guy that is a Multivariant analysis, beta analysis,quadratic programming, Knew what I meant. :)

Hey Tec's, are you freinds with Al Gore, you know he invented the internet. Sorry Big T, I couldn't help it.:)

[Ian]

>>you have quite evidently never dealt with any extemely complex problems.

I dont think we are talking about the same thing here. Not sure what exactly your getten at, Sound to me your over thinking something or another,

Anyway,

I would have to say this is probably the one of the best frased comments on this thread,

>>*Know your farmers, know what they use, educate, and adapt to the situation. Get off farms that are not good for bees. The bee industry may need to change before the farmers do.

[MichaelW]

Bjorn, where all the studies you talk about directly related to CCD?

I've heard and read about some investigation into contamination but that there's just not enough information to really say anything about it. I'm sure there's more than what I know about though! It would be nice if what is know would be more available. So far everyone seems to be talking diseases and not getting what is known about pesticides out. Weather that be neo-nics. or beekeeper's pesticides.

[BjornBee]

Bjorn, where all the studies you talk about directly related to CCD?

I've heard and read about some investigation into contamination but that there's just not enough information to really say anything about it. I'm sure there's more than what I know about though! It would be nice if what is know would be more available. So far everyone seems to be talking diseases and not getting what is known about pesticides out. Weather that be neo-nics. or beekeeper's pesticides.

Dave,
I don't tag all this stuff. I heard two if not three separate talks just in the Fall convention of the Pa. Bee Association meeting last November, well as a few others. Maryann Frazier spoke of what they found at Penn State, some guy from I believe Belgium or some European country (He spoke with a heavy accent) spoke of a rather interesting study with pesticides and effect to distance with plot points and overviews of maps with regards to known spraying and pesticides. And I think that some grad student gave a talk on the matter also. At this point, I have attended a lot of meetings, and the same thing is repeated over and over...no clear connection has yet to be found between CCD and neonicotinoids.

I'm not sure if as clear as your asking about "studies" completely ruling out neonicotinoids. I think what its more saying is that for everything looked at thus far, no connection can be found. Levels are not there, or no standard pattern of contamination can be found between CCD samples and non-affected samples, or some CCD samples not having any pesticide issues even worth noting.

I don't write everything down at these meetings. No need to. If it catches my attention and its something new, then maybe. But at this point, its the same from anyone willing to comment on the matter...No connection has been found. I have listened to the researchers and the well respected industry people close to the researchers, and as of yet, not one person has even remotely suggested pesticides as being shown as the cause.

After a year and a half of the bandwagon being pushed down the street by a few so-called experts on the matter based on the fact they LOSE huge amounts of bees, I'd be interested in hearing from ONE person that can point to anything that would even remotely suggest that pesticides are to blame by a study, samples, or based on research.

Sorry Dave if I can't be more clear. Perhaps others have attended some of the same meetings I have been too. Or maybe someone can call a few people and just ask. For me, I'm just saying that for everything I have heard, its the same story, no connection. And yes, a good number of samples have been processed.

The only flaw or crack I see that may change this, is many of these same people making these comments somehow always include "At this point, no clear connection...." I only hope thats not a hidden signal to suggest that it could be pesticides but for now, and perhaps until the money is handed out, that things are being withheld or not being as truthful as possible.

I'm not claiming neonicotinoids is not part of the problem. But at this point, no clear connection has been found. And I have heard that from several independent places and people, all looking at the same things.

Can anyone point to one clear study or researcher pinpointing a connection to CCD and pesticides?

[twd8711]

i do agree that we have to be more selective on hive placement, for all it seems we know, which isnt much,all the bees could be on the brink of ccd and any contributing factor could be the last straw, for all we know it could be the very chemicals we treat mites with,saddly enough it seems the day will come that if you want honey youll have to accept the chemicals that come with it.
heard an article this morning on chemicals found in alaska and not used in Alaska, the believe they are coming from Europe via the winds, and the question is how much control do we realy have

[Troy]

I am frustrated that no one seems to know the answer to the original question.....

Is there a shortage of bees or not?

[France]

Perhaps they don't know the answer to that one either, Troy?

Is there a shortage of bees or not, you asked?

Well, about 20 years ago, there were roughly three times as many hives in US, as what is apparently reported today! Give or take a few thousand. . . ?

Now, you can decide which way to go and the count is not in yet for this year. . . .

[Ian]

>>Give or take a few thousand. . . ?


We should be close to knowing exactly the situation, the bloom is delayed so I am told by better than a week, so if there is 150K short, there should be a flurry of bidding!

[tecumseh]

keith rights:
Hey Tec's, are you freinds with Al Gore, you know he invented the internet. Sorry Big T, I couldn't help it.

tecumseh laughs:
no sorry I don't know Al and no I never heard him say he invented anything? it's good to keep you humor up about these kinds of things... don't ya' think?

I think if it were me Keith and I was settin' right down in the epicenter of 'bee keeping chaos' that I would likely worry a bit. there are a lot of things you can control in regards to the problem... but there certainly are a lot of concerns that you cannot.

Ian I was only trying to suggest that given the scope of the problem and the fact that no simple (singular) source of the problem can be identified (as of now) it is going to a lot of man hours of a lot of experts from a range of fields (genetics, bioliogy, chemist, etc) to even kind of figure out what's happening. I suspect if the problem was reduceable to two or three factors we would have already had a good idea of the nature of the problem.

the song could possible be the theme song of the california pollinator and thanks for the lyrics Barry?

[Keith Jarrett]

tecumseh laughs:
the fact that no simple (singular) source of the problem can be identified (as of now)?

Hey Big T,

Laughs... lifes to short if you don't. :)

I think so as well, I think it's the "perfect storm effect", we need to slow up on pushing the bees so hard and pay attention better.

[France]

Quoted from above:
Can anyone point to one clear study or researcher pinpointing a connection to CCD and pesticides?

Well, this ball keeps bouncing, but nobody seems to be able to catch it? It is almost humorous how expertly are some able to defend certain parties, (knowingly or not.)

Wanting proof from a average Joe-blow is a bit much IMO. Especialy in view of all the camouflage and smoke, that can possibly be thrown about, to screen off the Chemicals or/and paint them with a clean brush.
What puzzles me, is how quick are we to point to others that chemicals are not the one! That EM-s are not the one and one can go on and on?
With one breath we shout that they are not! (as if we had proof?)
At the same time we claim that there is no proof.

If there is no proof for the positive - we can not apply it with the same breath - for the negative !

At least in some EU countries they had enough proof to ban those or other chemicals which apparently did the damage?
It was sufficient evidence for them over there?! In the court of law even!!! Why does it not suffice here?
Same stuff, about the same circumstance/symptoms? Why calling for diferent proof? Proof is proof - here or there!

There were study-papers published already, that feral bees stayed away from the GMO stuff?
That butterflies are fast disappearing, cause of chem's that we use, etc, etc? Some are already gone for good!

In UK, bumblebees are disappearing!? Some are strains are already gone for good! Why?
Here nobody even gives a **** about them? !
But the point is: If they are not honey-bees - the culprit is known and named.
Cause, quite simply: Nobody gives a hoot about some dumb insects that make most people' skin crawl.
I have been around bees for 53 years now and for almost as many I have been saying, that if farm animals or our cats or dogs were treated the way some bees are - they would have prohibited us from owning livestock and perhaps thrown us in jail!?

Right now! Some scientists are loosing their hair - cause tens of thousands of bats are leaving their wintering caves prematurely, cause their fat reserves are seemingly depleted? They fly out in broad daylight and fall in the snowbanks - frozen. They crawl in people's wood-piles and die. . . .
Experts in agriculture are already screaming of impending danger!
Only one cave population of bats, eats in one day over 20 tons of insects. When bats are not eating those insects - those insects are eating tons and tons of our crops.
Bees are not the only ones in peril - they are but a single link in a chain which is currently crumbling in front of our eyes!

Now, may I ask you. . . ? How come?

Us, know-nothings, think that perhaps all this bat fiasco has something to do with the insects that they feed on, or are supposed to. . . ?
Same insects that cruise about, or feed on the same fields as our bees do?
Or at least - most probably, don't you think? I will even venture out so far as to say that perhaps those EM are driving those insects mad too. Perhaps even poor bats - affecting directly?!
And those insects don't feed on sugar, pollen paddies, fondant, HFCS, have Varroa, TM - or what else is one supposed to throw in the pot to make it overflow and perhaps catch some attention?
Oh yeah, I forgot the all dreaded - PPM !

Now, I am not looking for hair splitting here. I am not an alarmist or fear- monger either. Just thinking out loud, as I keep reading the same b..... over and over.
Yes, after a while it all ads up - to what we all already know: Who will hold the short, s.... end of the stick?
But meanwhile, they will keep stirring the crap with it, as long as they possibly can, to prevent us from grabbing it in a blind desperation and endless frustration. . . .

Now, my friends in beekeeping, go grab a cold one! Set your but down and think about all this mess that we are collectively in !
And if I may add? I, for one, don't see an easy answer, or quick end in sight - at least not for a while. . . .

[BEES4U]

Can you please elaborate on the methods and materials that you currently are using to treat mites?
Thank you,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries

[WVbeekeeper]

2) That same point of deadly concoction may be the same factor with the many types of chemicals being found in comb samples. One study noted 22 separate chemicals in the comb. Individually, one may not mean that much. But mixed together, it may become a point that deadly results are seen.


This is called potentiation.
po·ten·ti·ate
1. To make potent or powerful.
2. To enhance or increase the effect of a drug.
3. To promote or strengthen a biochemical or physiological action or effect.

The same thing happens to celebrities (Anna Nicole, Heath Ledger, etc) and musicians (Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, etc...) when they mix the drugs they use. Certain combinations intensify the effects and in some cases causes death. I'm sure that if humans can easily do it to themselves that they can just as easily do it to a tiny little bee.

[Troy]

I guess it is the Engineer in me. I want a hard answer to a straight question. It is just my nature.

Personally I draw the following conclusion based on what I read here. (and I have no other data to go by - I am not out there in CA. Keith is there, so I figure he knows more than I do)

Some say there is a shortage and Keith says there are still hives available for rent. There are conflicting statements about a shortage, so there must not really be one. Some farmers are must not be willing to pay higher prices for last minute orders and some contract pollinators are having some shortfalls, and that must be what is causing the conflicting points of view.

[jjgbee]

Troy, an article with comment from several brokers in the Farm Bureau weekly seem to conclude that we are short. I was just north of Bakersfield today. The blooms are just begining to pop. I saw orchards with no bees yet. Are the beeks just late or is there a shortage?

[Ian]

>>At least in some EU countries they had enough proof to ban those or other chemicals which apparently did the damage?
It was sufficient evidence for them over there?! In the court of law even!!! Why does it not suffice here?


Ya, and alot of that chemical damages proved to be false, yet the beekeepers hit the streets, demanded the product to be lifted and sucessful in thier battle.
Yet, as fellows tell me from that country, the problem still presists, exactly the same it had before, and the chemical isnt used anymore,.?

Perhaps they got ahead of the wagon before it could be pulled down the street,

One thing about here in north america, our polotics will tend to lean towards science before hype.

[BjornBee]

DaveW,

Another example of a study referenced on pesticides is noted in B.C. March issue, page 67 "Pollination and Borders". Canada had CCD like loses 20 years ago, and for 14 years up until 2004, they looked at Bayer product "Admire", and came away with no clear connection.

I love how some have their own opinion, and much of that is based on facts made up by association, by hearsay, or repeated urban legend. Yes, some countries in Europe banned some pesticides. But this was a knee-jerk reaction, without little proof or testing. To say they banned something is true. To carry that over somehow to now a belief, that proves anything, is just assumptive, and wrong.

Other countries can ban something rather easy and very swiftly. Read the article mentioned above, and see if you can point out the "ban" of bees based on a rumor or a single point. The ban was initiated immediately, and lasted two weeks, then was lifted. Nothing happens in this country that fast. But this at least allows a small peak at how fast, and how easy other countries can react to situations.

I'm not defending chemicals, and anyone who knows me has heard me say that site selection and pesticide issues are a big concern of mine. I have pulled some of my bees from farms I feel are a danger to my operation. But I just don't go along with ANY bandwagon when facts are not there, and the road is not clear where that wagon is heading.

[tecumseh]

keith writes:
I think so as well, I think it's the "perfect storm effect", we need to slow up on pushing the bees so hard and pay attention better.


tecumseh replies:
not sure I would have used the 'perfect storm analogy. our 'pushing the bees' also seems to be the opinion (professional in this case) of the state bee inspector here. I think he said he kind of got some folks in sacramento hackles up by stating that what some folks out your way were trying to do was 'unnatural' ... and you can image how that went over amongst those 'flower in their hair' california bee keepers. he suggested that what we likely needed to think about doing is to 'design' two sets of bees, one for pollination and one for honey production. of course this would mean you would need to maintance two groups of stock, incurr twice the capitalization and almost by design one set or the other would be free loading on the other (which is to suggest that it might work for the bees but might not work out for the beekeepers back pocket).

as to the question at hand (was it from Troy?)... since the 1950 the number of honey bee hives held in commercial hands has steadily dropped. from a peak of about 6 million hives the numbers have steadily dropped (much as a result of cheap imported 'fair trade' honey) to about 2.5 million today. now the almonds requires from about 1 to 1.25 million hives in february and peaked out in brood production (and this is why the state bee inspector here thinks this system is a bit unnatural). the new acres planted to almonds increases significant each year, so next year even more hives will be needed. in the old days (when there was 6 million hives) commercial beekeepers could loose half (a winter loss number that did occur from time to time) their stock from winter loss and they would still have 2.5 million hives come spring to fill those empty boxs. now anything that approach a 50% loss mean that their is only barely enough hives to pollinate the almonds and an individual beekeeper who goes to the almonds 'might' have hives to fill those empty boxs only if they have dodged the hail of bullet (herbicide, pesticide, fires, mudslide, floods, theft etc) that seems to be a part of the california landscape.

if the hives in california were rented based upon an auction and not private contract then you could likely track the data and determine when the supply side of the equation became inelastic (ie a spike in price really brings no more hives to the auction). that would be a pretty definitive bit of information that 'there are not enough hives in the almonds'.

[Joel]

"I've heard and read about some investigation into contamination "

Jerry Bromenshank recently addressed this issue responding to a post on Bee-L. He stated the CCD team has clearly tested for toxins in dead bees and does is seeing unusual levels of pesticides in bees. Take a moment and pop over and read what's there.
There ARE pesticide Kills, like there have been since DDT in the 1960's and likely before. It does not appear at this time to be common denominator in CCD.

[MichaelW]

The only flaw or crack I see that may change this, is many of these same people making these comments somehow always include "At this point, no clear connection...." I only hope thats not a hidden signal to suggest that it could be pesticides but for now, and perhaps until the money is handed out, that things are being withheld or not being as truthful as possible.

Dave.. I mean Bjorn,
As a casual observer, NOT in the know, its my understanding that although there is no clear connection, its still worth significant investigation and thats waiting on the funds to do it. I wouldn't think they would waste that amount of money to appease the 'bandwagon' and say, "see I told you so". I think there is a valid concern that pesticides plays some role. I don't think things are being withheld, I just think there's not enough information.

I hear you France. Thats something to think about. It had crossed my mind that bats do eat insects and I wonder really what state insects in general are in at this point. When you have municipalities doing aerial spraying just so they can say, "We are doing something about this West Nile threat.", even though it does nothing about the so called "threat". And you have other "killem all and let God sort them out" type insect management strategies coming from all kinds of groups of people it really makes you wonder, what if we are completely dependent on insects as a critical link in the food chain and general ecosystem health? Thats a rhetorical question of course.

[Keith Jarrett]

Some say there is a shortage and Keith says there are still hives available for rent. .

Hey there Troy,

In todays modesto Bee paper SIX bee ads many with price @ $150-$160.

In todays fresno Bee papers three ads for bees for rent.

Look this up modestobee.com & fresnobee.com

I think the supply / demand is very close, I don't see a massive shortage.

Wheather also is in the 65 degree range and will also ease the framers minds about bees.

[MichaelW]

Disease, habitat, nutrition, and pesticides with an Anthropomorphic slant:

What causes massive disease outbreaks in humans?= Poverty.
Lack of nutritious food, or enough food, substandard housing, thatch
roofs, (old comb), poor medical care, missing low impact disease till
they are significant, or not fully addressing diseases when the do
occur, other environmental stresses that impact overall
health such as a toxic environment or food, crowded/marginalized
populations, all roll together in a way that when a new/virulent disease
occurs, it decimates these people. Is it the diseases fault or poverty?

Don't read into this as an indictment of beekeepers effected by CCD,
thats not my point or intent at all. If I was a large scale beekeeper I
would do things just like everyone else (more or less) because thats
the way you do it. I'm just thinking about the 'perfect storm' idea with CCD.

[Keith Jarrett]

Disease, habitat, nutrition, and pesticides with an Anthropomorphic slant: CCD.

Micheal also writes "Random Thoughts".

random thoughts my hinny, that was right on TARGET.

well said.

[Joel]

{"random thoughts my hinny, that was right on TARGET"}

Agreed! Good analysis Michael.

{Don't read into this as an indictment of beekeepers effected by CCD,}

In fact it may be an indictment of methodology.

[Ian]

>>But I just don't go along with ANY bandwagon when facts are not there, and the road is not clear where that wagon is heading.


One of the fellows I am reffering to from France, was one of the beekeepers who contributed in the protest rallies. He lobbied hard to rid of the use of that specific pesticide. And he is happy it is not used anymore there. Even now when he admits it probably wasnt the cause of the problem, and the action taken against the chemical company was not justified, he still prefers the chemical isnt used on the crops there anymore.
Its probably in every beekeepers nature to have that opinion. I dont know of a beekeeper who likes pesticides used on agricultural crops. I know of alot of beekeepers who realize the economic realities of agricuture, and therefor work with the farmers to minimize losses due to the pesticide treatments.

Afterall, we are making our living off the farmers cropping decissions, be it for honey production or pollination, our industry relys totally on thier perfomance.

[deknow]

I dont know of a beekeeper who likes pesticides used on agricultural crops.

...yet, many of these same beekeepers feel justified to use them inside their own hives:confused:

deknow

[sierrabees]

<How are pesticides tested on bees, I just learned this, it the LD50 test, adult bees are sprayed with test product at different levels concentration until 50 % of adult bees die, that is then deemed harmful to bees. Has any product been tested on a operating hive and see what happens to the next brood cycle?>

The LD50 is not used as a measure of the safe level by responsable individuals. In my exerience the LD50 is the disaster level. For most drugs used in animal medicine an LD .01 would be considered a risky drug to use at that level and dosage would be adjusted to a much lower level than that. This is of course the approach used by people in practice who have to answer to the animal's owner.