Letting splits raise their own Queen in S. Michigan

[Michibee]

I plan on doing some splits this year and letting them raise their own Queen. I'm a little concerned that being in southern Michigan that the timing may be too critical to get viable hives before winter. Any input from experienced beeks would be most welcome.

[clintonbemrose]

You'l need to FEED, FEED, Feed. But it works but you'l get no honey from them.
Clint

[MountainCamp]

I do early splits and allow my hives to rear their own queens.
I do my splits the later part of April to time the queen's mating flights with the onset of swarm season.
Good luck,

[Jeffzhear]

I split one yard of hives last year during the last week of April, or it might have been the first week of May. I split each hive into three and let them produce their own queens. The hives I split from produced excess honey. The new hives did fine, although I did feed them in August and Sept. since the flow was almost non-existant. So far they seem to be doing well....using the MC sugaring method on that yard! :)

[ekrouse]

Michibee,

As long as you have good nectar flow during the season it's hard to mess it up. Here's my experience from last year:

Because of tough winter weather and leaving hives too exposed I was down to 1 hive here in upstate New York. I turned the 1 hive into 5 by the end of the season. Here's the chain of events:

I split the hive into two on 4/29/07.

Hive #1: queen and most of brood
created Hive #2: just brood, bees and eggs / day old larvae (basically a nuc in a medium body hive)

Just over 1 month later (6/2/07) I split both hives again...

Hive #1: queen and most of brood
Hive #2: new queen and brood

Created Hive #3: split from hive #1 (just brood, bees and eggs / day old larvae)
Created Hive #4: split from hive #2 (just brood, bees and eggs / day old larvae)

One week later on 6/10/07... I did it again!

Hive #1: queen and most of brood
Hive #2: queen and most of brood
Hive #3: had multiple capped queen cells (on two seperate frames)
Hive #4: had just 1 capped queen cells

Created Hive #5: by taking one frame with capped queen cell from Hive #3 (leaving the other frame with queen cells) and added capped brood from Hive #1.

Created Hive #6: split from hive #2 (just brood, bees and eggs / day old larvae).

Going into winter I moved frames of honey around due to the different rates of buildup.

Hive #1: Removed 75 lbs honey
Hive #2: Gave 24 lbs honey
Hive #3: Removed 2 lbs honey
Hive #4: Gave 12 lbs honey
Hive #5: Removed 16 lbs honey
Hive #6: Gave 6 lbs honey

Total: Harvested about 50 lbs of honey (all weights estimated). All hives went into the winter with at least 80 lbs honey. As of last week 2/18/08 (President's day) all were still wintering well.

-ekrouse

[Ravenseye]

My April split died this past December. They made their own queen, built up like crazy and looked like they would even give a crop. I think they went queenless in early fall and ran out of bees by the end of the year. Haven't had a chance to take them apart yet. That doesn't mean that it won't work. I just recognize that there are issues on both sides regarding buying queens versus letting nature take her course. I've bought queens that were superseded in a short order and replaced by superb mutts. Go figure.

[bleta12]

Splitting a hive a letting the bees make their own queen is not a good beekeeping practise, it will always result in an inferior queen.

There are only three reasons the bees will start building queen cells: supercedure, swarming and emergency.
In our case they will be emergency queen cells. The bees will start feeding different stage larvas to turn them in queens. The oldest larvae will emerge the first and eliminate the other queen cells. The queen reared from the oldest larvae is not the best queen because she has been exposed to the extra feeding latter, that makes a big difference in the queen quality.
Both swarming and supersede cells are superior. But If you keep using the swarm cells every time you may run the risk of selecting from swarming colonies and that may lead to more swarming.

The solution is to re queen will a matted queen from a good source. If you get bad results from one source try a different one, try a local beekeeper.

The real solution is to start making your own queens, Miller method, with those queen rearing kits or better, grafting from your best hives. Even if you have a small number you will benefit greatly.

Otherwise you should start a split only with a queen cell always started, a supersede cell or most likely a swarm cell. You should split only those hives that are strong enough.

Good luck Gilman

[Michibee]

Thanks for thr info. Have any of you had problems keeping the nurse / worker bees in the split hives till a Queen hatches?

[Brent Bean]

Michibee:

If looking at your hand map which Michiganders do I would guess that if you say your from south east Michigan, perhaps Monroe county? Drag you finger to the opposite side of you hand and that’s where we are located, Berrien county.
I have done splits here usually around early May letting them raise their own queens with very good success. Most of the time depending on the weather I will even get surplus honey from them, in late August. Keep and eye on them for abundant pollen forage that is sign for the begining of the swarm season, which is when they will naturally divide themself. Doing splits on your winter gang busters will also control swarming. These hives will usually give you robust queens being the strongest of your stock.

[MountainCamp]

Honeybees have been rearing queens for longer than we have.
If you are concerned that a larva that is too old will be used, simply go back after 4 days, any queen cell capped is culled.

[bleta12]

Honeybees have been rearing queens for longer than we have.
If you are concerned that a larva that is too old will be used, simply go back after 4 days, any queen cell capped is culled.

In nature the hive split is done naturally during swarming season, that is the time the bees rear queens without our blessing. Hive splitting is a human management and the bees just react to it by raising emergency queen cells that are inferior.
If you MC practice this method you have in your yard inferior queens that will be superseded.

Gilman

[MountainCamp]

Gilman, I will go out and tell my queens that they are inferior. I hope they don't pack up and leave. The good thing is they seem to know what they are doing, and don't listen too much when I tell them what they should do.

All kidding aside. The eggs of queens and the eggs of workers are the same. For the first three days, workers and queens are fed royal jelly. There is some indication that what the queen and worker is feed during this time is not exactly the same, but the caste is decided on day 3 by the feed given.

Now after day 4 of the larva stage the queen cells are capped.

So, if you go back in after 4 days and culled capped cells, only queens reared from eggs as if they were supercedure or swarm queens will be reared.

Therefore, they are NOT inferior in anyway, shape, form, or function.

[bleta12]

Gilman, I will go out and tell my queens that they are inferior. I hope they don't pack up and leave. The good thing is they seem to know what they are doing, and don't listen too much when I tell them what they should do.

All kidding aside. The eggs of queens and the eggs of workers are the same. For the first three days, workers and queens are fed royal jelly. There is some indication that what the queen and worker is feed during this time is not exactly the same, but the caste is decided on day 3 by the feed given.

Now after day 4 of the larva stage the queen cells are capped.

So, if you go back in after 4 days and culled capped cells, only queens reared from eggs as if they were supercedure or swarm queens will be reared.

Therefore, they are NOT inferior in anyway, shape, form, or function.

In Nature, every reaction to an emergency situation has only one goal, survival and very often to the expense of quality. Bees are no different.
The age of the larva's selected for emergency queen cells is different and the oldest, inferior one, will emerge the first.
Even if you cull the oldest after 4 days, you still will get inferior queens.
The weather conditions when bees rear queens is very important. In late April that you do the splits and let your queens raise emergency queen cells, it is very early and the weather can be very unfavorable. The way the bees are feed has a direct relation with the quality of the queens raised.
I am not even going to talk about the availability of mature drones and good matting weather in early May in your and my area.

The best thing to do is not to fight the natural order and go with the flow.
In North East the bees dont raise queens in April. The best time to raise queens is when the bees want to and in our area that is some time starting late May.

Gilman

P.S.

I went on your web site and I saw some very very nice pictures, especially those showing your yard in the winter. I really think that they are the best pictures I have seen on a beeyard. I believe that I saw some garlic that you may grow. I am a big fan of garlic. Of course that I was not exited when I saw your hiving packages. I like nucs much better.

My best Gilman

[bwyatt]

I have been keeping bees off and on since I was a kid and have never bought a queen. I'm 61 now and have been keeping bees this time since 1992.

I always made splits from my best producers and let them make their own queens to get like results.

I have also made queens from swarm cells and started nucs with them with good results.

I guess I'm just lucky to get good results--making all these mistakes.
I will continue to do so as long as the results are the same.

Bill

[MountainCamp]

>The age of the larva's selected for emergency queen cells is different and the oldest, inferior one, will emerge the first.
>Even if you cull the oldest after 4 days, you still will get inferior queens.

Actually, 3 days as an egg, 4 days as larva, then capped. So, it on the 4th day after you do the split, all capped queen cells are culled, then any queen cells and queens being reared were from eggs and not larva. So they are and have been feed a queen’s diet from the start and develop as queens.

>In North East the bees dont raise queens in April. The best time to raise queens is when the bees want to and in our area that is some time starting late May.

I have hived swarms as early as may 9th here in Round Top. Our swarm season is usually underway by mid May and extends to about the end of June. With the prime season being the end of May thru early June.

If the colonies are swarming they have and have had for a while mature drones. I time the mating flights for the middle to end of May, and hence they have mature drones.

>I went on your web site and I saw some very very nice pictures, especially those showing your yard in the winter. I really think that they are the best pictures I have seen on a beeyard.

I thank you, we like living here. Round Top is a great place to live and raise a family.

>I believe that I saw some garlic that you may grow. I am a big fan of garlic.

Didn’t grow any garlic this year, but will be planting come fall.

>Of course that I was not exited when I saw your hiving packages. I like nucs much better.

Packages were for a friend in NJ. Got them started with bees about 6 years ago.

Looking forward to the first blooms in about 7 weeks or so.

[Brent Bean]

Bleta12:

I’m a little confused about your thoughts on queens reared from splits? You have said more that once that they will be inferior? If that’s true what is your spin on rearing queens, and how would it be better than under good weather conditions and splits given frames of correctly aged brood with abundant pollen and honey resources could be inferior to queens reared in other fashions.
I have to disagree with your logic, making splits at the right time of season for your area is a excellent way of obtaining new hives or queens for the part time beekeeper that don’t need a lot of queens or hives for their operation.
Like MountainCamp has stated more than once it’s an easy process of eliminating larva that was to old to produce a good queen. I have experience using this practice and have consistently exceeded state averages of surplus honey. A split I made from a winter survivor that was made in May 2006 gave me 312 pounds of surplus honey in 2007, I wouldn’t call that a product of and inferiorly breed queen.

[danno1800]

Those are some of the most beautiful pictures I have seen posted on your website. Great job! -Danno

[bleta12]

Bleta12:

I’m a little confused about your thoughts on queens reared from splits? You have said more that once that they will be inferior? If that’s true what is your spin on rearing queens, and how would it be better than under good weather conditions and splits given frames of correctly aged brood with abundant pollen and honey resources could be inferior to queens reared in other fashions.
I have to disagree with your logic, making splits at the right time of season for your area is a excellent way of obtaining new hives or queens for the part time beekeeper that don’t need a lot of queens or hives for their operation.
Like MountainCamp has stated more than once it’s an easy process of eliminating larva that was to old to produce a good queen. I have experience using this practice and have consistently exceeded state averages of surplus honey. A split I made from a winter survivor that was made in May 2006 gave me 312 pounds of surplus honey in 2007, I wouldn’t call that a product of and inferiorly breed queen.

Listen/read carefully, I shall speak/write only once. It is time to get a pen and a paper and take notes.

Some of the most important conditions for achieving a good matted queen:

-Time of the year, temperature (the day getting longer or shorter)
-age of the larvae (0-24 hour old)
-amount food coming in the hive
-amount of food stored in the hive(nectar and lots of pollen)
-number of bees in the hive (queen cell/nurse bee ratio)
-age of the bees
-weather during the proces of queen rearing (temp, rain)
-weather during the proces of queen matting(temp, rain)
-amount of mature drones during the matting
-number of the bees in the new colony (to take care of the new queen)

There may some other condition but these come to my mind now.
These are some points that are generally accepted to influence your queen production and any violation may increase the chances of failure to produce good queens.
D.C. insists that successful beekeeping is Applied Bee Biology.
If you can fulfill these conditions on Christmas time, you will be fine, but for most of us in the Northern states, we dont see these conditions before the second half or May and that is the time the bees start thinking of swarming.
I am not going to argue with your 312 lb. We may find people that have made big money in casino but chances are that if you keep gambling for a long time the adds are against you.
The same with bees, we only try to increase the odds on our favor, the nature does the rest.
Honey bees are not designed to produce 100+ lb of surplus honey. their main goal is to generate it own species.

Myself I graft from my best stock and hope for the best. I start grafting some time late May early June.

You can get good results if your splits are done in the same time the bees have started swarming cells.

Gilman

[MountainCamp]

“-Time of the year, temperature (the day getting longer or shorter)”

Hives rear queens from late April / Early May till well into the Fall in the north. Depending on how far North and the year. The ambient temperatures and weather patterns outside of the hive will not affect the rearing of queens as long as the colony can cover the queen cells and keep it warm.
So how does this affect the queen being reared?

“-age of the larvae (0-24 hour old)”

You say that if I cull all cells capped (4) days after I make my split, I will have inferior queens produced.
Yet, some research has shown that larva slated to be workers are not feed the same diet as those slated as queens.
So, if grafting is the act of taking less than 24 hour worker brood and "forcing" them into the roll as queens does not produce inferior queens, how does allowing a "colony" to do the same produce an inferior product?
But, by culling all capped queen cells 4 days after the split, actually ensures that all queens reared are down so from "eggs" destine to be queens from the start.


“-amount food coming in the hive”

Queens are NOT feed nectar nor pollen directly. Feeding the queen larva is a function of stores and access to them.

“-amount of food stored in the hive(nectar and lots of pollen)”

Again, as long as the “nurse” bees are receiving adequate nutrition, the queen’s feed will meet or exceed her nutritional needs.

“-number of bees in the hive (queen cell/nurse bee ratio)”

This is any time of year that you try to rear queens.

“-age of the bees”


This is any time of year that you try to rear queens.

“-weather during the proces of queen rearing (temp, rain)”


Again, the ambient temperatures and weather patterns outside of the hive will not affect the rearing of queens as long as the colony can cover the queen cells and keep it warm.
So how does this affect the queen being reared?

“-weather during the proces of queen matting(temp, rain)”


The ambient temperature and weather will affect every queen's mating flights. If there is a week or more of "poor" flying weather in May, June, or July, you may have a queen that is poorly mated.

“-amount of mature drones during the matting”

If the colonies are naturally swarming, when the mating flights are taking place, there are mature drones for mating.


“-number of the bees in the new colony (to take care of the new queen)”

This is any time of year that you try to rear queens.

The assumption is that splits are being made from colonies that should be split. If the colony does not have the resources to produce queens, it does not matter what time of year you make splits, or graft, or insert queen cells, etc.

Now, as I have said: I make early splits up toward the end of April for mating flights to be timed with the onset of swarm season. So there are mature drones in numbers adequate to provide well mated queens.
Our early blooms start around the end of the first week of April. So, natural pollen and nectar sources are coming in. Is the flying weather consistent? – NO. Can they forage during some days? – Yes. But, colonies are feed light syrup and pollen substitute, so they are getting enough nutrition to rear brood as well as queens.
I only split colonies that can handle being split and both halves of the split are viable.
By culling the capped queens after 4 days, only queens reared from eggs mature and mate. This is actually a better process to grafting which forces workers to become queens.
So am I producing an inferior product? Absolutely NOT. I have well developed and well mated queens that head colonies that year after year do well.
They winter well with average winter loses around 10%.

As already stated I do not use over the counter mite controls, I did not used any type of treatment last year. I have only used spearmint and wintergreen oils in syrup over the last 10 years. Except for 1 treatment of OA trickle method (3) years ago.
So, if these are inferior queens, please keep them coming!

[MountainCamp]

Danno, Thank you, It is a great place to live and easy to take nice pictures with what is surrounding us.

[ekrouse]

The proof is in the pudding as they saying goes.

bleta12 - anytime you want to compare honey production from my inferior, self-raised split queens with your upper class, hand raised queens or anyone else's mass produced southern queens just let me know. I'll weight the honey just as soon as I get the supers off my hives with the 6-ft step ladder I typically use to get to the top. Everyone should be lucky enough to have queens that are adapted to local conditions and survive without chemicals/miticides/feeding.

-ekrouse

[FordGuy]

I have pretty much resigned myself to be a student of bees all my life, and though I have come to know quite a bit, never will I take on the tone of telling someone to "listen/read carefully, I shall speak/write only once." and tell them "it is time to ...take notes." especially if I cant' spell "mated."

If I ever exhibit this self important behavior, somebody here please slap some sense back into me.






Listen/read carefully, I shall speak/write only once. It is time to get a pen and a paper and take notes.

Some of the most important conditions for achieving a good matted queen:

-Time of the year, temperature (the day getting longer or shorter)
-age of the larvae (0-24 hour old)
-amount food coming in the hive
-amount of food stored in the hive(nectar and lots of pollen)
-number of bees in the hive (queen cell/nurse bee ratio)
-age of the bees
-weather during the proces of queen rearing (temp, rain)
-weather during the proces of queen matting(temp, rain)
-amount of mature drones during the matting
-number of the bees in the new colony (to take care of the new queen)

There may some other condition but these come to my mind now.
These are some points that are generally accepted to influence your queen production and any violation may increase the chances of failure to produce good queens.
D.C. insists that successful beekeeping is Applied Bee Biology.
If you can fulfill these conditions on Christmas time, you will be fine, but for most of us in the Northern states, we dont see these conditions before the second half or May and that is the time the bees start thinking of swarming.
I am not going to argue with your 312 lb. We may find people that have made big money in casino but chances are that if you keep gambling for a long time the adds are against you.
The same with bees, we only try to increase the odds on our favor, the nature does the rest.
Honey bees are not designed to produce 100+ lb of surplus honey. their main goal is to generate it own species.

Myself I graft from my best stock and hope for the best. I start grafting some time late May early June.

You can get good results if your splits are done in the same time the bees have started swarming cells.

Gilman

[bleta12]

I have pretty much resigned myself to be a student of bees all my life, and though I have come to know quite a bit, never will I take on the tone of telling someone to "listen/read carefully, I shall speak/write only once." and tell them "it is time to ...take notes." especially if I cant' spell "mated."

If I ever exhibit this self important behavior, somebody here please slap some sense back into me.

I thought that was funny. Since when the lawyers have lost the sense of humor. We are all students when it come to nature, some good some better students.
On a positive note, I consider only one misspell as a progress and I am sure that there are people like you that will correct me.
There are two main ways to be knowledgeable: read yourself or listen to others that know more. If you dont like the second, start reading.
It has been a long winter, you are lucky, when weather gets better I will not have time to share my knowledge with you.;)

Few more weeks.

Gilman

[dug_6238]

Spring...I'm counting the days.

[MountainCamp]

I'll keep reading and learning from the school of trying, adjusting, and doing!!!
Thanks for the advice!!

[bleta12]

"Listen carefully, I shall speak only once. It is time to take a pen and start taking notes", was a staple line from a British comedy in late 80-s in Europe. It was really funny.

[ScadsOBees]

I plan on doing some splits this year and letting them raise their own Queen. I'm a little concerned that being in southern Michigan that the timing may be too critical to get viable hives before winter. Any input from experienced beeks would be most welcome.

I've done it, and the timing isn't too critical. Just do what Ron Popeil says "Just Split It and Forget It!!". You may not end up with 2 full boxes of bees, but they can make it through the winter in only one box. If they are on foundation then the order is FeedFeedFeed, although a small split don't take too much food.

Sure, you may not end up with the "perfect" queen every time. But you can do it on your own time in your own way with your own bees and save some $$$.

With only 6 hives it don't make too much sense right now for me to be making 20 queens (although it is starting to sound fun!).

Rick

[Brent Bean]

Bleta12:

Your position is like someone that is debating themself. You don’t need to take notes or respond I’m sure you can’t afford the time away form your book on intelligent beekeeping you must be writing.

Michibee:
You don’t need to take my obvious lucky streak or the one that MountainCamp is on,( 10 years is quiet a roll) just ask a few more beekeepers about getting good queens or increases to your hive count by doing splits. Or get a copy of “Increased Essentials” by Dr. Larry Connor. Who is also a regular author for American Bee Journal. I realize that his knowledge probably pales in comparison to bleata12 but he make a book worth of good points. Of doing productive splits.

[Barry Digman]

"Listen carefully, I shall speak only once. It is time to take a pen and start taking notes", was a staple line from a British comedy in late 80-s in Europe. It was really funny.



I take it that American English (perhaps any English) is not your first language? I get the sense that something has been lost in the "translation", and that what appears to some members as arrogance may not be that at all, and that perhaps you are simply trying to make a point using a form of humor which many here are not familiar with.

[bleta12]

Bleta12:

Your position is like someone that is debating themself. You don’t need to take notes or respond I’m sure you can’t afford the time away form your book on intelligent beekeeping you must be writing.

Michibee:
You don’t need to take my obvious lucky streak or the one that MountainCamp is on,( 10 years is quiet a roll) just ask a few more beekeepers about getting good queens or increases to your hive count by doing splits. Or get a copy of “Increased Essentials” by Dr. Larry Connor. Who is also a regular author for American Bee Journal. I realize that his knowledge probably pales in comparison to bleata12 but he make a book worth of good points. Of doing productive splits.

There is nothing wrong having fun when we exchange views on a serious matter. Please dont focus on the form, I was just kidding about "taking notes or speaking once", on the other hand I am dead serious on the substance.
I know Larry, he knows that I have a big mouth and like joking. I was about to say that I teached him all he knows, but I am afraid that you will take it seriously so I am not going to say it.

Larry lived in CT for a while and after moving in your area he is greatly missed here.

When you see him ask him what he thinks on the matter of your kind of splitting. I believe that you may not agree with him.

Gilman

[bleta12]

I take it that American English (perhaps any English) is not your first language? I get the sense that something has been lost in the "translation", and that what appears to some members as arrogance may not be that at all, and that perhaps you are simply trying to make a point using a form of humor which many here are not familiar with.

I think that is the case.

[Brent Bean]

I guess when I read his book “Increased Essentials” I must have missed his point entirely. Since he only lives about 50 miles from here with luck I will get and opportunity to ask him what was the point of writing a book on hive increases and queen rearing threw splits if it would only result in a crap shoot for obtaining quality results?
I think I will have to write him for clarification, if he is going to write books on inferior beekeeping practices to only sell books I will skip buying his recent publication “ Bee Sex Essentials”
In the meantime I will continue to roll the dice I’m felling lucky. How about you MountainCamp?

[bleta12]

I guess when I read his book “Increased Essentials” I must have missed his point entirely. Since he only lives about 50 miles from here with luck I will get and opportunity to ask him what was the point of writing a book on hive increases and queen rearing threw splits if it would only result in a crap shoot for obtaining quality results?
I think I will have to write him for clarification, if he is going to write books on inferior beekeeping practices to only sell books I will skip buying his recent publication “ Bee Sex Essentials”
In the meantime I will continue to roll the dice I’m felling lucky. How about you MountainCamp?

On what page Larry recommends to split a hive and let the bees have an emergency queen? From what I know he often says to introduce a matted queen or a queen cell to the split.

[ScadsOBees]

Dr Conner is going to be leading 2 classes here in MI on Queen Rearing, April or May through June, one on the east side and one on the west side of the state.

PM me if you want some more details . Rick

[MountainCamp]

I must say I do get a kick when people tell me what I do “violates” the laws of beekeeping and nature, and then they turn around do whatever they please.

“In nature the hive split is done naturally during swarming season, that is the time the bees rear queens without our blessing. Hive splitting is a human management and the bees just react to it by raising emergency queen cells that are inferior.
If you MC practice this method you have in your yard inferior queens that will be superseded.”

As stated I do early splits that are timed to be 3 weeks prior to the local swarm season.
We have already talked about the fact that the weather outside the hive, with a colony strong enough to be split anyway, will have the resources to rear and raise queens. So, this is not an issue.
We have already talked about the fact that weather during mating flights is an issue, regardless of when these flights take place. So no additional impact here.
Age of the bees is actually not an issue, because they can adapt their duties to meet the colonies needs. But, when splitting and placing the frame with eggs and all covering bees, plus the rest of the splits bees, kind of makes this a non-issue as well.
Queens are not feed pollen or nectar, so if the colony has resources of stores that meet the nutritional needs or they can forage to meet said needs, again not an issue.

The issue would then seem to be the “age” of the larva used to produce said “inferior” queen. As already discussed, by culling all capped queen cells 4 days after the split was made, all queens are reared from eggs, As GOD and Nature intended. Don’t see an issue here either.

So, please tell me where the “inferior” queens are reared and why?

As for GOD and Nature: Grafting, Queen Banks, Drone Banks, Mating Nucs, (2) Hives side by side, bee yards, removal frames, etc – All fall under – Natural?

Grafting is the act of taking a larva of less than 36 hours old, that God and Nature deemed should be reared as a worker, and forcing this larva into the role of a queen. Since, the larva was not chosen nor destine to be a queen from the egg stage, her nutritional needs of the first “X” number of hours were met as a worker and “not” as a queen.

So can someone explain to me how a worker made by a hive into a queen at under 36 hours is any more inferior than a worker made into a queen by the beekeeper thru the act of grafting?

However, since we are talking culling all worker larva forced into “queen hood” and only allowing the queens reared from eggs to mature, mate, and lead the colony, I would have to say it is a superior product!!

Thank you for your time,

[CSbees]

EKRouse,

I am not saying anything bad about self raised queens, because I love doing this. However, I know a man who has always used mass produced queens and he stacks the supers to where a 12 foot ladder is necessary. Management is the key.

[ScadsOBees]

If you split DURING swarm season, or slightly before, you may very well have a whole bunch of high-quality swarm queen cells to put in your splits, then you don't have to do anything special and avoid the emergency/inferior queen issue. You just have to watch the hives closely so you don't miss any swarms. They can easily build up before fall.

[Brent Bean]

MountainCamp:

Any debate over your logic would be pointless, as far as I am concerned you have put it out of reach of a rebuttal. Well said!

I don’t get all my queen stock from splits, I do buy from breeders like Purvis Brothers. I do this for genic diversity. But I also recognize the need for locally breed stock which I can easily cull from my own survivor stock and for me only having 20-30 hives splitting is one method along with taking advantage of swarm prevention by doing so.

[bleta12]

I got to go. My plane leaves in few hours and where I am going it is warm.
Talk to you in two weeks.

Wish every body Good luck

Gilman

[MapMan]

I got to go. My plane leaves in few hours and where I am going it is warm.
Talk to you in two weeks.

Wish every body Good luck

Gilman

What are you, a Snowbird?:) Have fun! Pack your sunscreen.:cool:

MM

[MountainCamp]

Brent, Thank you,

Gilman, Enjoy your trip.