Prophylatic use of terramycin?

[mwjohnson]

My main question is:

IF you had a yard (15-20 hives) located 1/2 - 3/4 miles from one of yours, that had been "allowed" to treat foulbrood with TM instead of burn, would you feel the need to treat your yard, even though you had no obvious syptoms?

AND IF there was another guy about 3 miles from you...but he only has 5-6 hives, would you still feel the same way.

I feel kind'a surrounded....ignorance is bliss!

I've got another head scratcher for you,
I've heard that TM "only masks" the syptoms. What's so bad about that?

I would treat responsibily, so that my honey isn't laced with it.
What am I missing here?
Let's see...my honey's O.K., my bees "seem" good...Hmmm

FWIW:
I haven't used antibiotics in 4 years. Well, I mean TM or Tylan. I do fed Fumigilin-B.

The old inspector thinks I'm nut's.He's been scolding me for years, thinks I should be using TM patties ....I love the guy anyway's...

Thanks, Mark

[Robert Brenchley]

I wouldn't use it, I'd just burn any hives which developed it, and try to breed for hygeineic behaviour.

That's purely a theoretical statement as far as the UK is concerned, as treatment for AFB is still illegal. Hopefully it will remain so. Before the law on burning was brought in, someone had managed to breed bees which could be put onto infected comb, and clean it up without developing symptoms of AFB. So it is possible to breed bees which are effectively immune.

[Michael Palmer]

>>IF you had a yard (15-20 hives) located 1/2 - 3/4 miles from one of yours, that had been "allowed" to treat foulbrood with TM instead of burn, would you feel the need to treat your yard, even though you had no obvious syptoms?

AND IF there was another guy about 3 miles from you...but he only has 5-6 hives, would you still feel the same way.<<

There's someone elses bees 1/2 mile from you, that had foul, and was allowed to treat with TM? Is that what you mean? Or is it another of your yards? And the other guy, is he clean?

>>FWIW:
I haven't used antibiotics in 4 years. Well, I mean TM or Tylan. I do fed Fumigilin-B.<<

I wouldn't treat...But, I would be looking into my neighbor's beekeeping. Are they good beekeepers? Will they be checking for AFB...before it gets out of control? Is the inspector going to re-examine those nearby yards? Can you work with these folks?

I guess I'd want to know all that before I made a decision. My opinion...you should ALL stop treating, and burn what shows up.

>>I've got another head scratcher for you,
I've heard that TM "only masks" the syptoms. What's so bad about that?<<

Because it will always be there, and the first time you're late on your treatments...

TM will mask the vegatative stage of AFB. So, you treat 6 (?) weeks prior to supering, as the directions state. How many weeks later do you take off the supers? Or should I say, months? And how long does it take from the last spring treatment until the disease shows itself, again? Will your supers be off in time?

I think you're doing it right, not treating. I haven't in years. All my equipment has been through the operation many times, and I know it's clean. As long as I inspect colonies in spring, then prior to taking off the crop, and in the fall, I'm sure enough I'll find anything that came in from outside my operation. If I find AFB, it gets burned...no questions, end of problem.

[Bizzybee]

"I wouldn't treat...But, I would be looking into my neighbor's beekeeping. Are they good beekeepers? Will they be checking for AFB...before it gets out of control? Is the inspector going to re-examine those nearby yards? Can you work with these folks?"

You're kidding right? Or you at least mean you would contact your inspector to find out what's going on with the yards near you?

State regs are all anyone needs to be concerned with when it comes to their bees, not anyone else's notions of what is the right way.

While I agree with the no treatment approach for anything, but unless the state is going to enforce any such laws or regulations. They are decided on by those agencies. If anyone elects to become a part of that process, hats off to them.

Anyone coming to my door concerning how my bees are kept other than the state inspector is going to be catching a tiger by the tale. And I would expect the same results would be achieved with any other beek around here.

[Ian]

Yup, Id carry on a treatment schedule in spring and fall.

Just as with mites, your strong will bring in the infection, because of robbing dead outs.

[Michael Palmer]

"I wouldn't treat...But, I would be looking into my neighbor's beekeeping. Are they good beekeepers? Will they be checking for AFB...before it gets out of control? Is the inspector going to re-examine those nearby yards? Can you work with these folks?"

You're kidding right? Or you at least mean you would contact your inspector to find out what's going on with the yards near you?

State regs are all anyone needs to be concerned with when it comes to their bees, not anyone else's notions of what is the right way.

While I agree with the no treatment approach for anything, but unless the state is going to enforce any such laws or regulations. They are decided on by those agencies. If anyone elects to become a part of that process, hats off to them.

Anyone coming to my door concerning how my bees are kept other than the state inspector is going to be catching a tiger by the tale. And I would expect the same results would be achieved with any other beek around here.

Yeah, I knew that sounded wrong. I didn't mean for him to look at his neighbor's bees. I meant he should think about what kind of beekeeper his neighbor is. I tried to clarify what I meant, but I guess It didn't work. If his neighbor that didn't burn the AFB can keep the disease under control, and the inspector says the guy with 5 colonies is clean, and since his operation is clean, then he shouldn't treat.

Is that better? :-)

[mwjohnson]

Sorry I wasn't very clear.

Yes, there is a yard of 15-20 hives 1/2- 3/4 miles from mine. Another smaller yard 3 miles away. Both have a history, and are the reason I'm rethinking my position.

Still at least 2 other yards with 15-20 hives each, within 2 miles, but I feel both these guy's are both good, one is a friend.

This is my "home yard". I have 18 hives and 10 (I hope) nucs there.
I share another yard (9 hives)with a guy, within flight range of both,about 2 miles from the home yard.

Lived here for 45 years. This yard been here the whole time. Never knew it was there.
Yeah, I've talked to him, but working together... I don't know, beekeepers are funny guy's. :)

This yard was tore up by a bear last year...and I heard that it was a while before anybody caught on, wonder if my bees were getting in on the spoils?

A few years ago the keeper we're talking about lost almost all due to mites...does it sound like he's on top of things?

He's got 1000 hives, or so.

I've been trying to follow the New Zealand recomendation's in there book "Elimination of American Foulbrood without the use of drugs" ...but your neighbors gotta be with the program too, I think.

I hire a former senior N.Y.S. senior inspector a couple times a year to go through everything with me and that's great, in addition to the current inspector looking at some,25% seems like what they try to look at I believe...but last year they were still trying to work thru some problems, so nothing from good old N.Y.S....

So that's about it for the "background"...so then I guess that I back to my first question?

[tecumseh]

mr johnson writes:
The old inspector thinks I'm nut's.He's been scolding me for years, thinks I should be using TM patties ....I love the guy anyway's...

tecumseh replies:
I am with the old inspector... perhaps it is an old guy thing.

my preference is tm dusting.. primarily that was the way I was taught to do it and grease patties can be a problem with the small hive beetle. lately I have been adding hygenic stock to try to decrease the need for this intervention.

[Michael Palmer]

>>A few years ago the keeper we're talking about lost almost all due to mites...does it sound like he's on top of things?

He's got 1000 hives, or so.

I've been trying to follow the New Zealand recomendation's in there book "Elimination of American Foulbrood without the use of drugs" ...but your neighbors gotta be with the program too, I think.

I hire a former senior N.Y.S. senior inspector a couple times a year to go through everything with me and that's great, in addition to the current inspector looking at some,25% seems like what they try to look at I believe...but last year they were still trying to work thru some problems, so nothing from good old N.Y.S....<<

We all lose bees due to mites. Even the best beekeepers.

The NYS inspection program is back. I think they do a good job...at least in my area of NYS...Clinton County. You're in Cooperstown. Is your inspector PB? He's a good one. I think you can trust him to do a good job. I know he's very approachable. If he understands you are trying to use the NZ recomendations, I would think he'd inspect your area, and tell you what's up. He may not be able to tell you beekeeper X has disease in such and such, or he's finding advanced stages of AFB, but I would listen to his recomendations.

[Joel]

As an outspoken critic of the NY Inspection program for years I'm here to say they have improved considerably the past couple of years. PB of Peter Borst, is an exceptional inspector, extremely conscientous (SP?) about hives and queens and is dedicated to helping beekeepers as individuals and as an industry. I would gladly pay for the service I gotten the past 2 years. There are some glitches left but kudo's to Paul Cappy, Peter, and others who are working to make a good inspection service. If you are not taking advantage of this service I highly reccomend it.

I treat. We can discuss resistance all we want. Foulbrood spores are in most of our hives (Dr. Shiminoko ABF convention 1997) and in years before Varroa Destructor strong hives were able to provide a level of control against this and other disease because the "organism" of the beehive was strong except in isolated cases of poor stock or other environmental stresses. In our area, since 1995/1996 Varroa, which causes immunodeficieny in Bees, have become public enemy number one not only due to the direct loss of hives from their immediate impact but also by the continuing long term impact of weakening the health of our hives as an organism. PMS, AFB, Nosema A and C., Bald Brood, T-mites, Chalk brood, 14 or 15 different virus types, foraging impact and a host of other threats face our bees. I think the the impact of Varroa induced immunodefiency combined with nutrional and other stress allowing disease and pests to flourish will turn out to be the root of CCD. How do we build resistance to the natural path of nature wiping out artifical or natural overpopulation within any geographic area? The way we keep bees is contrary to nature. We keep this in mind whenever we consider our program.

Any AFB hive should be burned, treatment of AFB is the spread of AFB through handling, equipment and honey. If someone near me was treating instead of burning I'd move the yard. If you read the New Zealand study (and everyone should) the results of not destroying AFB infected bees/equipment are spelled out clearly. Keep in mind the New Zealand study was before impact from Varroa in New Zealand.

I think until we get control of Varroa without the use of harmful chemicals building AFB or any other resistance in bees will be difficult if not impossible to attain in real time. We are trying to build resistance in bees with comprimised immune systems.

It took me a long time to understand why small cell beekeepers where treating less or not at all. After a great deal of research it's clear they impacted the root cause of the other issues we face, the varroa mite, and as an unexpected result built a stonger colony at an important immune system level. It's clear to me from the research I've done until we've impacted Varroa consistenly in our operation and rebuilt the immune systems of our "hive organism" we will need to treat (preventively) to help our bees survive or face the reality of high losses.

Just My opinion.

[ScadsOBees]

I have an opinion too, and you are welcome to it! :)

If you have the history of foulbrood in the area, and possibly questionable hive maintenance, then you are stuck. If you burn your hives, you will just have to repeat that again later, so who wants to do that?

My $.02 is that what I would do is just hang in there without it as long as possible, watching very closely, and then at first sign deal with it. If the neighboring hives are being maintained, then you should be OK. It is sorta like crack...once you start using it you can't quit. Of course, if you are in the middle of a honey flow if/when you first notice it...that could be a problem.

From everything that i've read, extender patties are bad, they have inconsistent consumption rates, can be on there for a shorter or longer time period than recommended, which will lead to more TM resistant AFB. I'm sure that there is a proper use but ....

Rick

[mwjohnson]

Thanks guy's.
Yes, I too, think Paul Cappy will be good, and that he can get a good program going.

No, the last inspector they sent was Lynn Barton... he did a pretty quick inspection...but in fairness he knew that I still have our old inspector, Alan Nirschl, helping me out, so maybe he figured that things were likely O.K.

Thanks too Joel, for reinforcing the stress factor part,I have been thinking along those lines, maybe the best thing for me might just be reducing my yard by half?
That stinks, because this is MY valley. :)

I've been considering my options,
1)treat, cross my fingers.
2)not treat, cross my fingers.
3)put even MORE bees here, in hopes he will get sick of not having any more decent harvests.
4) offer the family that owns the land he's on some $$, to tell him to pack it up. Then I could put some of my own hives there!

Both #3. and #4. seem to me like they might work, however #3. would be better, seeing as how I need to get more bees...and don't really need any less $$ than I already don't have.

I know that probably sound like I'm being a jerk or something, but I'm not trying to be, I'm just laying down what I see as my only real choices.

Sorry to be so long winded...Hoping some of you guy's might have been in a similar situation, and will share your solution, or your thoughts about the proper direction I should be traveling.

Thanks very much,
Mark

[tecumseh]

joel first writes:
I think the the impact of Varroa induced immunodefiency combined with nutrional and other stress allowing disease and pests to flourish will turn out to be the root of CCD.
>my thinking also.
joel continues with:
How do we build resistance to the natural path of nature wiping out artifical or natural overpopulation within any geographic area? The way we keep bees is contrary to nature. We keep this in mind whenever we consider our program.
>exactly. so as long as you are keeping bees in limited numbers (and have neighbors with few or no honeybees) then the risk from pathogen (of whatever flavor) is limited. the greater the density the more you need to concern yourself with unnatural remedies and partial cures.

mr johnson writes:
I know that probably sound like I'm being a jerk or something

tecumseh replies:
it does come across that way just a tad. on most occasions time will cure these kinds of problems (I say this knowing full well that I and the world are always in the hurry).

[Michael Bush]

>The old inspector thinks I'm nut's.He's been scolding me for years, thinks I should be using TM patties ....

Not only is prophylactic use of TM not recommended by the experts anymore, but IF you use it the patties are not recommended as an appropriate way to administer it. That method is, instead, being blamed for the rise of resistant AFB.

I think your inspector should catch up on his reading.

[pcelar]

Not only is prophylactic use of TM not recommended by the experts anymore
Which experts?

[Michael Bush]

>Which experts?

Pretty much all the bee scientist I've talked to in recent years.

[tecumseh]

mr bush writes:
Pretty much all the bee scientist I've talked to in recent years.

tecumseh writes:
well michael that is likely the best NON answer to a question I have ever seen. not even the smell of one real name.

now why do you think when the ccd thingee first showed up that the first item on the list was the recommendation to begin feeding terramycin products? quite evidently those 'bee scientist' thought feeding TM wasn't such a bad idea.

Lastly... as far as I can tell like many things related to keeping of bees 'how' you do a certain task and 'when' you do a certain task will most time be critical as to whether the task works or not.

so... do I use TM? yes
do I use grease patties*? no

*if I had no problems here with shb I could use extender patties although I would likely formulate them so that their consumption rate was somewhat enhanced.

[beemandan]

mr bush writes:
Pretty much all the bee scientist I've talked to in recent years.

tecumseh writes:
well michael that is likely the best NON answer to a question I have ever seen. not even the smell of one real name.


Keith Delaplane for one.

Extender patties typically remain in the hive for....well...extended periods of time. If those patties include terramycin, then that long term exposure to terramycin will result in resistance.

[Joel]

There's a box canyon of difference between what I read in MB's response which Tecumseh responded to and what Dan responded to and this is important.

I read tecumseh saying he is aware of sublethal dosage issues and is also aware extender patties CAN be used if done so properly, and he is correct. The problems the experts have identified is misuse of patties leading to sublethal dosage and resistance.

MB's response would lead me to believe most experts he's spoke with are against the prophalactic use of TM, period. If that is the case I too would be interested to see names and perhaps directed towards some reading material. I am aware that Dr. Van Eaton and his partner in the New Zeland study "Control Of Foulbrood...." hold that position. I would qualify this with the statement at the time of this study New Zealand did not have the immunodefeciency impact from Varroa and AFB was a new threat.

Dan's post is naming Dr. Deleplane to support the statement not to use extender patties.

For the record the extender pattie issue was never pinpointed as the cause of resistance and there was quite a bit of discussion that the orginal dosage used mixed with powdered sugar may have been sublethal as well. That dosage incidentally is the one you'll see in Dr. Delaplanes video series unless it's changed since the orginal.



I am interested in clarification on MB's position. If the statement scientists are againts the prophalictic use of TM outside the use of extender patties is the accurate interpretation I'd be interested to hear who they are and/or read their discertations on this.

[Michael Bush]

I hate to quote people when I don't remember exactly what, who, when and where. I've heard many presentations and had a number of conversations and don't remember for sure which were which, but the gist of most was the fact that TM only masks AFB. Marla Spivak spoke about it in her queen rearing class. I'm pretty sure it was brought up by Nancy Ostiguy at the KHPA meeting a few years ago in KC. I've heard Marion Ellis say as much and then proceed to explain how to use TM, which seemed a bit odd. Anyone have any quotes to the contrary?
------------------------------------
EU recommendations on antibiotics:

"Risks related to the use of antibiotics for the control of honeybee diseases are persistence of the infect, reappearance of the disease and honey contamination (Directive 96/23/CE and further amendments).

"The following advices to beekeepers can thus be proposed:
"o Do not use drugs or antibiotics
"o (Use drugs or antibiotics only when necessary!)
"o Drugs should never be considered a substitute for good beekeeping"

http://www.culturaapicola.com.ar/apuntes/miel/17_aplicacion_drogas_enfermedades_europa.pdf
------------------------------
New Zealand
"Note: feeding oxytetracycline to honey bee colonies is not permitted in New Zealand."

Pg 27
http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/pests/varroa/control-of-varroa-guide.pdf
-------------------------------
Australia
"The use of antibiotics to control AFB is banned in all mainland states and territories"

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/07-059.pdf
-----------------------------------------------------

[Joel]

Thanks MB.

[tecumseh]

and thanks for the restatement of the question Joel. if one reads the label on their tm bag the limitations on application would suggest that likely 50% of the application of tm is off label. I can see why grease patties could be a problem in that their time of consumption lead to a product that is increasingly less effecttive but I suspect time and weather problems associated with reapplication could be a larger concern.

really if you desired to grow yourself out of a perceived or real problem with afb and without using chemicals then add a bit of hygenic stock to your apiary.

and to mr bush... thanks for explaining why you did not name names. works for me and on most days I would do quite the same....

[ScadsOBees]

Which experts?

Jerry Hayes from ABJ Classroom for another.

[sqkcrk]

Mark,
Would you be in favor of a law that basically would mandate that all bee yards would be 3 miles apart, except already established yards and home yards? There is some discussion amongst beekeepers who would like to try this. Personally I'm not in favor of such a regulation. It would be hard to inforce for one thing.

Whatever Alan is advising you to do is what I would go with. He is a good beekeeper. And if you aren't getting enough attention from Lynn Barton I'd call his boss, Paul Cappy, and talk to him. I know that they are stretched for Inspectors. But helping beekeepers w/ their problems is at least partly what they are there for.

Have you thought about becomeing an Inspector? It's an opportunity to learn about beekeeping from another perspective.

[mwjohnson]

Hey Mark
You asked; "Would you be in favor of a law that basically would mandate that all bee yards would be 3 miles apart, except already established yards and home yards? There is some discussion amongst beekeepers who would like to try this. Personally I'm not in favor of such a regulation. It would be hard to inforce for one thing."

I'm not sure. Maybe. I'm a less government type.
I just really try to to be open with the all the commercial guy's around, and say I'm looking at such and such area, and just ask them if they have a yard anywhere around there (not their exact location). I ask the inspector too. That seems to work.
I really don't want to crowd anybody, or be crowded.
Now I know it's different for a guy like me, and a commercial beek with his back to the wall, but I would like to see ALL AFB BURNED.

Then: "Whatever Alan is advising you to do is what I would go with. He is a good beekeeper. And if you aren't getting enough attention from Lynn Barton I'd call his boss, Paul Cappy, and talk to him. I know that they are stretched for Inspectors. But helping beekeepers w/ their problems is at least partly what they are there for."

Not complaining about the service. Lynne knows his stuff, especially queen rearing.
My reasons for hiring Alan privately have nothing to do with lack of help from NYS.
I enjoy spending a day with him, always learn some stuff, and in general always felt it was money well spent.
I don't alway's take his advice...like T.M., but have been thinking about treatment pros/cons.

BTW, I still don't see why "masking" AFB is bad.
It seems to my small brain that that's as good as not having AFB in the first place.
I guess ultimately what we need is to have bees that don't need so much intervention.
Just don't know that I'm gonna be in a position to solve that problem....

You also asked: "Have you thought about becomeing an Inspector? It's an opportunity to learn about beekeeping from another perspective."

Yes, I did.
It would be a great way to further my education, expand my contacts, PLUS I'm getting tired of swinging a hammer.
But then I say how they treated you guy's....
We need to make our Apiary inpectors fully vested state employee's, IMHO.

Techumseh:
I have been thinking of trying some Minnesota's...seems like the proper direction from where I'm standing. Thanks

Thanks Everyone
Mark

[pcelar]

Michael it seems to me that you are maybe oversimplifying things. Maybe you are mixing apples and oranges. US has its standards and EU and Australia have theirs. It is difference of opinion on a matter. We add AB's prophylactically to food to all other animal species to protect them from certain diseases. Why not to bees? Hopefully, when I start beekeeping this spring, I' ll most likely be using AB's with my bees in accordance with prescribed mode of the pharmaceutical company which makes that drug. I am not drug happy but sometimes drugs are necessary. I prefer organically grown vegetables but occasionally I do use chemicals if I need to. I have witnessed in Europe what can happen when beekeeper is not following veterinarian's prescribed treatment for the colony of bees. There is right use of the drug and wrong use for any drug.
We are not saying here there is only black and white; there is only wright way and wrong way. There are merits of different needs, situations, circumstances,... Good luck to all of you good beekeepers! :)

[Michael Bush]

>We add AB's prophylactically to food to all other animal species to protect them from certain diseases. Why not to bees?

Sounds like the wrong question. The right question is why do we do it to other animals and what is the results of that?

http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_environment/antibiotics_and_food/fdas-approach-to-antibiotic-regulation.html
http://www.keepantibioticsworking.com/new/resources_library.cfm?refID=69872
http://www.cspinet.org/ar/petition_3_99.html
http://www.mcdonalds.com/corp/values/purchasing/antibiotics.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/safe/overview.html

[pcelar]

>We add AB's prophylactically to food to all other animal species to protect them from certain diseases. Why not to bees?

Sounds like the wrong question. The right question is why do we do it to other animals and what is the results of that?

http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_environment/antibiotics_and_food/fdas-approach-to-antibiotic-regulation.html
http://www.keepantibioticsworking.com/new/resources_library.cfm?refID=69872
http://www.cspinet.org/ar/petition_3_99.html
http://www.mcdonalds.com/corp/values/purchasing/antibiotics.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/meat/safe/overview.html

As far as I am concerned these docs prove nothing except that ignorant farmers, mom and pop outfits, who have no knowledge about pharmacology, biotransformation of drugs, and farmacodynamics and farmacoutilization, should not be alowed to purchase drugs without strict, direct and constant veterinary supervision. That's why one can not buy OTC farmaceuticals for the people. :)

[Kieck]

Personally I'm not in favor of such a regulation. It would be hard to inforce for one thing. -sqkcrk

South Dakota does it. And enforces it (without much staff). The state rules read:


State law mandates that each commercial apiary within the state must be three or more miles from the nearest commercial apiary.

Hobbyist beekeepers who operate 5 apiaries or less are exempt form the 3-mile limit, and their apiaries can be stocked with a maximum of ten hives. Landowner-beekeepers are also exempt from the 3-mile requirement, although they must still register their hives with the Agriculture Department. Temporary pollination permits, available from the Department of Agriculture, are also exempt from the 3-mile limit.

So, exceptions are made, but the system is followed pretty well.


BTW, I still don't see why "masking" AFB is bad.
It seems to my small brain that that's as good as not having AFB in the first place.
I guess ultimately what we need is to have bees that don't need so much intervention.
Just don't know that I'm gonna be in a position to solve that problem.... -mwjohnson

Antibiotics and pesticides and herbicides can be and are wonderful tools, but they get abused. Ideally, in an integrated pest management strategy (and these work for microorganisms and viruses as well), management techniques are employed to avoid using these treatments. If the management is good, no treatments will be necessary.

Occasionally, a pest or disease will get to be a problem despite the best efforts of an IPM program. Then, "rescue treatments" (pesticides or antibiotics or such) can be used to bring pest/disease problems back under control. The goal, though, is still to avoid using rescue treatments as often as possible.

From a "pride" standpoint, resorting to a rescue treatment means that your management strategy has failed, for whatever reason.

From a practical standpoint, using chemical treatments routinely puts producers onto a "chemical treadmill." Once on, it becomes difficult to get off. Stop treating, and the problems return. And, over time, the problems evolve to overcome the treatments, so the treatments have to be changed to try to keep one step ahead of the problems. (That's why beekeepers use CheckMite+, as well as Apistan, for example. Apistan was no longer effective against Varroa in some cases.)

If you're comfortable using terramycin in your hives for either as long as you run hives or until terramycin is no longer effective against American foul brood, then it seems fine.

Your statements about using the New Zealand system suggest to me that you would prefer not using antibiotic treatments.

Perhaps the problem already is too many hives in too small an area?