Chilean Queens

[Ian]

For all you Canadian beekeepers on this fourm, this might post some interest.

www.oaknookhoney.com/ChileanQueens.html

www.lynxseismicdata.com/chile/chile.htm

[JBJ]

How much $$ are the Chilean royalty going for?

[jean-marc]

i've seen them offered for $15 some at 17. I was offered some for $11.00 then the guy backed out of the deal after I had reluctantly agrred to 3 of his conditions. Go figure.

Jean-Marc

[Ian]

Ya, they are being brought in to Manitoba here, Mid of May to June, priced at 15-17$/queen. That beats out anything else that would be imported here into Canada.
I wasnt given any conditions to follow,

[Kieck]

I feel I'm missing something here. What's the advantage of bringing in Chilean queens? Just the jump in timing (Chile is entering winter as Canada is entering summer), or something else in addition?

[BjornBee]

I feel I'm missing something here. What's the advantage of bringing in Chilean queens? Just the jump in timing (Chile is entering winter as Canada is entering summer), or something else in addition?

I think I went over the entire website and googled to see if there was something to be found. The web does not mention selection, breeding efforts, and not even a mention of characteristics (honey production, gentleness, etc.) of the queens from Chile. If someone can pass on any beneficial information and a history of these queens I'd be interested in getting couple. But as of now, other than the fact they are from Chile, I don't see what going on either.

[Sundance]

Just on the face of it I always get a little uncomfortable
whenever we import any species. I know the honeybee
came from Europe. I am just saying that caution should
be exercised lest we let in some negative genetics.

PS...... I don't like the Australian invasion either.:(

[Ian]

>>I don't like the Australian invasion either.

The Australian bees sure got a bad rap.

I import from Hawaii, Zew Zeland, and the US. Now I am from Chile.
Id say probably the highest risk is from the US California queens.

[honeyman46408]

Just on the face of it I always get a little uncomfortable
whenever we import any species. I know the honeybee
came from Europe. I am just saying that caution should
be exercised lest we let in some negative genetics.

PS...... I don't like the Australian invasion either.:(


And where was it that the AHB as we know it come from?

[drobbins]

I'm just curious
you couldn't import these into the US legally could you?
I don't want any, I'm just curious about the rules

Dave

[Kieck]

So, Ian, why use queens imported from Chile? What advantage do you see in them over queens from New Zealand or Hawaii?

[Ian]

>>I am just saying that caution should
be exercised lest we let in some negative genetics.


Why is it that you expect these queens to have inferiour genetics? Possibley those beekeepers, have worked to keep thier hives as productive and ALIVE just as we are here in North America. Our beekeepers who visited the queen operations in Chile were quite impressed with the hives strength and precieved perfomances. Thier beekeeping industry is not as developed as North Americas, very little investment is put into thier hives. But in that regards, thier stock selection is narrowed and selection is for the finest and best perfoming, against diseases and mites. Kinda what some here are doing with thier hives, dont you think??

Bjornbee, becasue of that, there hasnt been any study on thier performances quite yet. Guys here have gotten about 80 or so queens in late last year, too late to test for quality and mite and disease characteristics. But those observations and studdies are to be done. They havnt been done by Chilean beekeepers as far as I know. I dont really think anyone has ever ventured in their direction before. (except for us back in the 80's)

Never the less, why from Chile?

>>why use queens imported from Chile? What advantage do you see in them over queens from New Zealand or Hawaii?

Kieck, I see a huge oportunity getting a queen production industry developed in Chile, comming from a Canadian beekeepers perspective. The queen production industry in Chile has huge potential for developing a market to supply Canadian Beekeepers with early spring queens. Its an industry we can work with, and help incorperate some of the high quality qenetics from breeders here in Canada with Chilean vigour, and resiliant queens to custom mold a line of queens perfect for our conditions. It gives us a place where we can capitalize on the work being done here in Canada.
OUR breeding programs only allow for a LATE season breeding program to exist. If we can propagete the genetics in Chili, we can supply our beekeepers with what we need, at the exact time we need it.
The climate of Chili is exaclty a queen breeders dream. Sunny, dry and sunny. It holds all the characteristics of California, except for the cool foggy spells that sometimes pluages the area at times the queens need sun!
All in cooperation with the Chilean govnt, and beekeeping industry, it could prove to be a very lucrative venture for thier industry, and provide the Candian beekeeping industry with a huge advantage.

Also, as the importation of Zew Zealand, and Hawaii queens, it gives us more a taste of more diversity of honeybee genetics. Dont discount the Chilean bees quality, might be something underestimated. It seems all so often I here here on this fourm(not mean specifically you Kieck) the concern about narrowing honeybee genetics. Too few lines being propagated, and followed. Just for a moment, think along my open market views here, wouldnt the incorperation of new stock, and new genetics be good for the industry. Bees coming from a part of the world where disease has been managed somewhat naturally, and secluded from the boom and bust economic pressures of the world. They might have something as precious as the Russian programs being preformed currently. Time will tell, and the possibilities building on those bees are exciting.

[Sundance]

" Why is it that you expect these queens to have inferiour genetics?"

Inferior is relative...... AHB are in reality, superior bees in most
respects (other than human perspectives).

At my age, I have come to learn to expect, the unexpected. Not
being cautious has led to multiple horror stories in the plant and
animal world. All with good intent, and all with their own level
of "caution".

[Ian]

>>Inferior is relative...... AHB are in reality, superior bees in most
respects (other than human perspectives).

These arnt Africaized bees, they are our good old well known European type :) The Mountains help with the problem in Argentina.

>>Inferior is relative...... AHB are in reality, superior bees in most
respects (other than human perspectives).


But also , lets look at reality. Much of what we grow in North America has been imported. there has been huge advantage brought to us by allowing such to happen.

[Michael Palmer]

So, Ian, why use queens imported from Chile? What advantage do you see in them over queens from New Zealand or Hawaii?

Or over queens raised in the US, or Canada. Why risk another infestation of whatever, or rely on whomever from wherever, to grow the queens we need. We have good stocks here already. Is it just a timing issue?

[Ian]

>>We have good stocks here already

Michael, its easy to say when you have access to all the genetic programs currently being performed in the US, with out any restrictions.

[Kieck]

The timing I understand. I suspected as much, and it makes some sense to me. Queens produced later in the season seem superior to queens produced early in the season, and queens from Chile would be produced late in their season and very early in Canada's season. Makes sense.

I wonder how Chilean queens would compare to overwintered queens in Canada, though?

As far as the "genetic diversity" aspects, I've been the one saying that I'm not sure that we're suffering from as great a loss of diversity as has been suggested by others. I'm still not convinced by that one. So the "narrowing of genetic diversity" is not really an issue, in my opinion. (For comparison, look at AHB; virtually all AHB in South and North America are descendants of 26 colonies, yet they seem to be suffering no effects of a lack of genetic diversity.)

Canada doesn't allow importation of queens from the U. S.?

[Ian]

>>Canada doesn't allow importation of queens from the U. S.?

Two operations in California have permits to ship North. Stracten, and Oliverez.

>>I wonder how Chilean queens would compare to overwintered queens in Canada, though?

Thats a good question. But lets not forget costs. If you can find someone that will be able to over winter queens for less than $15, Id be supprised.
There are some guys throughout the west here that do a good job of it. Using modified equipment and wintering something like 8 queens in the size of a standard box. Takes alot of time and care to sucessfully winter them into April. It works, it has its advantages, but it has its challenges. Id say buying from Zew Zealand or Hawaii buys alot of time to do other types of beekeeping activities through out the year.

[irwin harlton]

That the same people importing these queens from Chile were the first to organize a Manitoba QUEEN breeding association, to breed Manitoba QUEENS.They also managed to get thousands of dollars out of the Manitoba Beekeepers Association in the name of research FOR queen breeding in manitoba.There agenda seems to have changed.

[Ian]

>>There agenda seems to have changed.


Bringing in queens from Chili will not hinder the work being done within the Associations. Thier work is still focused on producing the best queen for our climate. The potential of the Manitoba provinial queen production industry has its limitations, and it has probably worked to its full potential already. Queens comming in from Chile are going to producers who would buy queen off shore anyway.

Where I see the potential with Chilean queen production, is to get our "Manitoba select" genetics propagating down there, to be able to sell back into our provence, selling to the beekeeper who want that early queen, who would otherwise buy an off shore queen, and then have the ability to have a choice of locally selected stock.

I truely see potential here, "IF" that is the direction the association is taking, I am not one of the current working members. Alot of this talk of mine still depends on the cooperation with the Chilean government. They are real tight on importation of bees.

If this is the direction they association is taking, would you then expect the association to re-pay the money? Do you not feel they have spent the money into current worth while breeding projects?

[irwin harlton]

"If this is the direction they association is taking, would you then expect the association to re-pay the money? Do you not feel they have spent the money into current worth while breeding projects"

I Would not expect the Queen Breeders Association to pay back or have the ability to pay back grants from the MBA.
I do not think they have spent our money wisely, just my opinion
The supply of early queens, say May 10th , has to come from USA, Hawaii, or Chile..... somewhere besides manitoba. There is a high demand for mated queens at this time of year

I agree that if Chilean BREEDERS can breed Manitoba genetic's( queens) than this program will work to our advantage.

Another bonus would be more genes coming into a limited gene supply, I think Chilean bees have been isolated for quite awhile and do not have African genes.

[Ian]

>>I do not think they have spent our money wisely, just my opinion

Could you elaberate on that thought for a bit, Irwin. I would be interested in hearing thoughts on it.

[JBJ]

"As far as the "genetic diversity" aspects, I've been the one saying that I'm not sure that we're suffering from as great a loss of diversity as has been suggested by others. I'm still not convinced by that one. So the "narrowing of genetic diversity" is not really an issue, in my opinion. (For comparison, look at AHB; virtually all AHB in South and North America are descendants of 26 colonies, yet they seem to be suffering no effects of a lack of genetic diversity.)" Kieck

The loss of diversity is very well documented. There have been a few new alleles added to the gene pool with recent imports. I think the reason that the AHB haven't showed the loss in diversity has to do with how the they are reproduced. They swarm so frequently that there are very large populations of ferals breed with whatever drones they like, unlike in a commercial queen production setting where thousand of daughters are produced from a single breeder queen in a single season. This type of reproduction would not occur without the help of man. In essence these are two different breeding systems that will yield very different results in terms of diversity.

[irwin harlton]

When you give an grant or make an investement you expect something in return for your money. I believe the money was spent at the Univerity of Manitoba, Entomolgy division,a good place to do research and spend this money.
I am not aware of any buissneess or breeding lines that were formed from this research.I think the desired result of the research was to be able to produce mite resistant queens early in the year in Manitoba.Perhaps this research is still ongoing.I have not heard of any results from these grants

[Kieck]

The loss of diversity is very well documented. -JBJ

Really? Where? I have yet to find any real documentation that "diversity" within Apis mellifera in North America has been reduced, especially at the genetic level. I see more merit to the argument that any subpopulations have been homogenized (less difference among groups than within groups), but I wonder how much "diversity" has even been lost there. The differences among some of the races -- even in a "pure" form -- are very, very difficult to detect without detailed morphometric analyses.


There have been a few new alleles added to the gene pool with recent imports. -JBJ

This, by its very definition, means that diversity at the level of alleles has increased, not decreased. Can you identify alleles that have been lost or effectively eliminated from honey bees in North America?


I think the reason that the AHB haven't showed the loss in diversity has to do with how the they are reproduced. -JBJ

I terms of diversity, this doesn't matter. Africanized honey bees in the Americas originated from 26 colonies. That means that, even if each colony represented a distinct lineage of A. m. scutellata, a maximum of only 26 lineages resulted in the huge numbers of AHB present in the Americas now. Theoretically, at least, a few more immigrations could and may have occurred through swarms traveling as stowaways on cargo, but the same could happen with swarms from Europe or other locations.

Either way, the "bottleneck" that "should" have occurred with AHB from a founding with such a limited number of lineages does not seem to have much effect on the abilities of AHB to succeed from a selection standpoint.

For comparison, the number of EHB lineages imported over the years to the Americas were far greater than 26.


In essence these are two different breeding systems that will yield very different results in terms of diversity. -JBJ

That's not really how "diversity" is measured. On a genetic level, the differences in alleles from one organism to the next within populations is a measure of diversity. The more similar organisms are to each other than to "outgroups," the lower the diversity within the "ingroup." So, if we have a distinct race of honey bees, the diversity within that race is comparatively low. The diversity between one race and a second race is greater. But, the number of alleles and the distribution of alleles can lead to equal diversity within a homogenized population and a population composed of distinct subgroups.

[Kieck]

I think the desired result of the research was to be able to produce mite resistant queens early in the year in Manitoba. -irwin harlton

I'm curious about the goals of this program. I was under the impression that the queen breeders' association in Manitoba was attempting to breed queens that were suited to the climate, figuring that locally-produced queens from colonies that showed certain characteristics would produce colonies that would be more profitable for beekeepers, as well as expressing "mite resistant" or "mite tolerant" traits. Were they striving to produce early queens as well?

I also thought queens were available through a network of breeders who had this common goal and were selecting breeding stock to meet the criteria of this program.

[Ian]

>>queens were available through a network of breeders who had this common goal and were selecting breeding stock to meet the criteria of this program.
>>attempting to breed queens that were suited to the climate, figuring that locally-produced queens from colonies that showed certain characteristics would produce colonies that would be more profitable for beekeepers, as well as expressing "mite resistant" or "mite tolerant" traits

Yup that about sums it up Kieck.
The argument on how early they could supply queens all depends on the spring weather of that year, usually cells are avaliable second week of May if they pushed it. Supplying early mated queens isnt possible, Early June is usually when we can consistantly get them ready. Selling cell is probably more popular.

As for the mite tolerance, I believe they have done quite a bit in term of selecting and breeding for increased grooming behaviours. My neighbour, who participates with the program, may I add dedicates his time towards the project, was telling me the bees performed quite well. He was dabbling with Russian stock at the same time, and finnally gave up on that project, finding them too hard to work with, and actually figured the Manitoba select lines were out performing hte Russians in terms of mite tolerances and honey production.
His views were echoed within the association, and the results gathered off this line of Manitoba select queens are making consistant marks on the chart!

I feel the association is working and proceeding very well with thier project. A bit of cash infussion to help aid in issolating traits and develope line should be increased if you ask me. There is also a termendious amount of self motivated time involved with this project, that sometime goes overlooked. My neighbour pretty much has made his work with the association a part of his retirement, he charges for the cells and queens, but he also sends an extra 1$ per cell back to the association.

[Kieck]

Interesting stuff, Ian. I read a little about some of that work a while back (two years ago? three years ago? I don't remember). I do remember that I was interested enough to contemplate trying to import a few of those Manitoba queens into the U. S. until I learned something about all the red tape, then gave it up as a passing whim.

If I had a reasonably easy way to do it, I'd still be interested in getting a few of those queens.

Sounds like a good idea, still, and the idea of maybe exporting some of those genetics to Chile (or somewhere else) to duplicate the breeding program there so early queens would be available seems like a good concept to me. From the links here, though, I got the impression that the bees from Chile would mostly be Carniolans? Maybe after things get up a running some of the Manitoba queens would go the other way?

[Ian]

Ya Kieck, lots of red tape!
But there is no reason why other associations and groups wouldnt be able to achieve the same results. I would expect there are associations doing exactly the same thing, int the US

The Queen that I primarily use are Carniolans, and would take a stab suggesting most of the queens prefered into here would be Carniolans. I know of a few fellows who prefer Italians, all the same.
Having a Carniolan base stock would be a great advantage in my mind!

[JBJ]

Kieck, have you not seen Dr Steve Shepard's and others work on loss of diversity? They have actually counted alleles and the research is very very clear. Perhaps this would best be a topic for its own thread. We did pick up a few alleles with the recent importations Russians and the Australians but the number of alleles is still very low when compared to native populations in their home territories. Dr Spivak & Cobey also spoke about this at the conference last month in Sacramento.

Perhaps you are right and all of these researchers are wrong, but it would take empirical data to prove it. The genetic bottleneck has resulted from several die-offs and the nature of comercial queen production in the States. Most of the queens produced come form a mere handful of closely related breeders. This has been tracked through several mRNA studies. AHB has not experienced the die offs and most AHB reproduce on their own via multiple swarms so it would be nearly impossible for one queen to produce tens of thousands of daughters in one season as is routine comercial queen production.

[Kieck]

Kieck, have you not seen Dr Steve Shepard's and others work on loss of diversity? -JBJ

No, I haven't seen it, and I can't seem to find any peer-reviewed journal articles on allele loss in honey bees by Shepard. Can you provide the citations?

As far as Spivak and Cobey, I haven't heard their comments directly, but what I believe they are talking about is a bit different than what has been implied here. For example, the number of alleles in Apis mellifera carnica (which is what primarily interests Cobey) is less than the diversity of alleles in A. m. carnica in its native range. And the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica in North America will likely be less than the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica in its native range. If we wish to perpeptuate these distinct races here in North America and potentially gain all the benefits of the diversity within each race from that race's worldwide diversity, additional importations will be necessary.

But that doesn't mean that we're "losing" diversity in the bees that we have (have had) here in North America. "Diversity" is a peculiar measure, in that you need to establish bounds on the group in which you measure diversity. Overall, the diversity of alleles in honey bees in North America is almost certainly far greater than the diversity of alleles in A. m. liguistica worldwide. But the diversity of alleles in North American honey bees is far less than the diversity of alleles in honey bees worldwide. Of course, some of that diversity also produces traits like those seen in Cape honey bees (A. m. capensis).


The genetic bottleneck has resulted from several die-offs and the nature of comercial queen production in the States. -JBJ

The problem, here, really is that we have no pre-"bottleneck" versus post-"bottleneck" empirical data on which alleles were present and which were not. In fact, we're can't even say that such a "bottleneck" occurred. How many colonies were present in North America before the die-offs you cite? How many died off? What percentages were involved, and what alleles were lost? Was this really a "bottleneck," in that much of the diversity was lost? I suspect not, because "bottlenecks" tend to leave small populations of organisms that are remarkably similar to one another -- in other words, every bee that you see should be virtually indistinguishable for every other bee in all aspects. I don't see that. I see a broad spectrum of appearances and behaviors, even among the few bee colonies I manage.


This has been tracked through several mRNA studies. -JBJ

Keep in mind that mDNA (mitochondrial DNA) measures matrilines, not real diversity. In human terms, for example, if your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandmother was the same as that of the person sitting next to you at some public event, your mDNA (and resulting mRNA) would be the same. Do you believe that you would in essence be an identical twin to that individual? Diversity in organisms comes largely from nuclear DNA, not mitochondrial DNA. mDNA helps show some relatedness and identifies matrilines.

From what I've read, specific portions of DNA have not even been closely associated with loci of most alleles in honey bees. How can we presume to "know," then, which alleles are or are not specifically present in the entire population of honey bees in North America?