Cross-Wiring Shallows

[NeilV]

I am putting together some shallow frames, and I will use crimp-wired foundation. I have talked to two old-timers. One said to cross-wire or the foundation will sag and I'll have wavy comb. The other said that there is no reason to cross-wire at all if the foundation is wired, even for deeps. He thought I was nuts for even asking whether I need to cross-wire shallows. I don't want to wire these things, but I also don't want to find out the hard way that I should have.

Did a search on here, and all I could find was one post from Michael Bush saying that he uses thin surplus with no wires in shallows just fine.

I'd obviously love to hear that I can skip the wiring, but I don't want wavy comb. On the other hand, there's not much room in a shallow for it to get wavy.

What does everybody else think/do? If I don't cross wire them, would it be bad to install the foundation a couple of months in advance and let them sit in the garage, or would that promote sagging foundation?

[peggjam]

"If I don't cross wire them, would it be bad to install the foundation a couple of months in advance and let them sit in the garage, or would that promote sagging foundation?"

I have cross wired before, but I didn't use wired foundation. I think you'd be ok skipping the cross wiring, but, I wouldn't put the foundation in until I need the frames.:)

[Grant]

I don't know. Way back in the bad old days, I used a tangential extractor, the kind you have to reverse the frames with, and I got kind of gun-shy of blow-outs. It really ticked me off to waste that expensive crimp-wired foundation because I was too impatient.

I started cross wiring and it just became a habit. Now you can get around it, and I'm sure there's enough guys who know to extract the first side gently, then reverse and extract with a little more speed, then reverse again to finish the first side. It gets easier when your comb gets older, but on "virgin" comb, it can be a mess. Little did I know that the bees are quite adept at filling in some of those holes.

So I get in the habit of cross wiring waxed comb, though I'm moving more and more into plastic foundation.

Grant
Jackson, MO

http://www.MakingPlasticFramesWork.homestead.com

[Jeffzhear]

I cross wire the full and medium depth with crimp wire foundation and shallows I just use the crimp wire, no cross wire.

[greenbeekeeping]

I wouldn't cross wire shallows only meds and deeps

[tecumseh]

crimped wired foundation should work just fine and most folks (at least this is my observation) typically use one or the other and not both. I should point out that the structural rigidity the two kinds of wiring methods produce in the frames is not equivalent and that horizontal wiring is always a superior product in my opinion.

[Michael Bush]

>Did a search on here, and all I could find was one post from Michael Bush saying that he uses thin surplus with no wires in shallows just fine.

The only trick is getting it drawn before it sags and being gentle when you extract. If you put thin surplus in too early it will sag before the bees get it drawn. But that's what you do for comb honey and I like to do that and then cut the pretty comb and extract any that isn't up to being comb honey.

[RBar]

Just kidding.
I have never crosswired, only used the embedded vertical wires that wired foundation comes with, but then, I never used an exractor until last year, and though I was very gentle on the comb, there were a few newer combs that I wish I had...
Still, I like a few jars of honey WITH comb chunks from time to time even though I am moving to plastic small cell frames for pretty much everything.

Bottom line, the bees do not care which you do, you just have to focus on what you want to do. If you plan to extract and to extract quickly, it is worth the trouble to save the combs.
AND, of course, listen to Michael Bush...there IS method in his madness.

RBAR

[ScadsOBees]

I have some medium foundationless comb without wires, and can extract with a tangential extractor, and there is some comb that sags but it is all caught in the basket so I rarely have a full blowout that I can't push back into place and the bees fix back up.

I agree with the previous posters that say don't wire, but don't put the foundation in too early either.

Rick

[Dale Hodges]

Its a good idea if your going to be moving your bees to different flows, if your stationary....I guess not.