using wax/frames after poss nosema

[jeannie]

Hi all,

today i finally got to clean 2 hives that i lost. One just plain starved the other i think might have had nosema. The hive was my stongest one this past summer with a total of 8 supers produced. That was great for a drought! The queen was 2 years old about to be 3. One day 3 weeks ago on a warm afternoon I noticed robbing going on and took a closer look only to see some feces on the outside of the hive. Not like what I have seen in photos here. I blocked the entrance and tried to contol the active. I removed the block the next moring and replace with entrace reducer. Some active not much more feces on the front but at the top of the supers some, but small light scattering. The hive died. One old beek told me that is probably was not nosema but a lost queen and robbing that caused the death. So today when I cleaned the hive I found some feces on the frames themselves on the endbars not the comb. My question is since there is alot of pollen in the comb is it safe to put out for the others to use? I'm thinking not since I just read all the articles about nosema a &c. What do I need to do? Stil very much a beginner!
Thanks jeannie

[Michael Bush]

I haven't done it, but they say you can fumigate them with acetic acid. I would guess you could also spray them lightly with vinegar.

[Grant]

Correct me if I'm wrong (not the first time) but I believe the vinegar in question is a commercial grade, something like 80% instead of the 5% grocery store vinegar.

Or do you think dipping them or spraying them in or wtih 5% grocery store vinegar would work?

Grant
Jackson, MO

[Michael Bush]

>Correct me if I'm wrong (not the first time) but I believe the vinegar in question is a commercial grade, something like 80% instead of the 5% grocery store vinegar.

If you want to fumigate you'll need Glacial acetic acid, not vinegar.

>Or do you think dipping them or spraying them in or with 5% grocery store vinegar would work?

I have not tried it but that's what people I know have done, yes. In the one case (fumigation) you need a very high concentrate. In the other case (dipping or spaying) you are applying it directly.

[LSPender]

Jeannie, referr to thread about nosem C. posted just below on main disease list. Read what I wrote, By LSPENDER.

I do not believe you had nosema because of the robbing.


Thanks, Larry

[Ian]

>> do not believe you had nosema because of the robbing.


Bees will not rob from equipment infected with Nosema? Is this a symtom on nosema? I didnt hear of this before, with A or C.
Is there any references I could read up on this?

thanks

[NW IN Beekeeper]

[I do not believe you had nosema because of the robbing.]

This statement is incorrect.

Bees will rob Nosema hives.

[ If you want to fumigate you'll need Galcial acetic acid, not vinegar.]

True.
Vinegar is made from acetic acid (at a weaker concentrate) and smells the same. But you must have the 80% to be effective. Vinegar is neither effective as a surface spray nor as a feed additive in the treatment or prevention of Nosema.

[Michael Bush]

>Vinegar is neither effective as a surface spray nor as a feed additive in the treatment or prevention of Nosema.

I'm not disagreeing with that, since I have no personal experience with nosema and vinegar nor any research to quote to disagree, but do you have some basis for that statement? Research? Just curious as I've heard some beekeepers who seem to think Vinegar in feed was quite helpful and vinegar to clean the frames also.

[MichaelW]

A hive with nosema and severe dissentery (sp?) is pretty obvious when compared to a healthy hive. Lots of feces dropping that are duller and more 'smeary' than regular bee droppings, not just a small area of droppings, but lots and lots of droppings (at least in my experience).

Once comb is contaminated with excessive nosema spores its useless in my opinion. We had one hive succumb to it, (as I never treated or looked for nosema). I saved the hive with fumadil and as an experiment, I've kept it going for another year and a high school student included it in a science fair experiment on nosema and varroa. The hive carried high spore counts the entire year, and despite a failed requeening attempt, it superseded the queen 4 times. It produced no honey and took resources to keep alive. Now I have a Nosema prevention and monitoring program and any infected equipment that may occur, including the mentioned hive will receive the following treatment.

1. cut out and destroy all comb
2. sterilize equipment with bleach soak as described for AFB sterilization

[LSPender]

NW IN Beekeeper, Please read my post under nosema Cerane, by LSPENDER.

As observed be me in the field the bees do not & will not go near the hive that are dying of nosema C., this has been one of the confusing symtoms that did not make sense to us. The it came to us that the bees are seeing thing we don't.


Also some one commented about disentary, remember that is known with nosema A. not known with Nosema C.


Larry

[Ian]

>>As observed be me in the field the bees do not & will not go near the hive that are dying of nosema C., this has been one of the confusing symtoms that did not make sense to us. The it came to us that the bees are seeing thing we don't.


I am very interested in this Larry. I have not been told this before, could you please refer me to some information related to this comment,
Or is this your precieved opinion?

[LSPender]

Ian, This is an observation made by myself and my beeks. It has been a point which has confussed many. Confused because who ( any beek) prior to 2000 had ever seen such a thing a dead hive not robbed out or a stack of boxes with honey in the frames that the bees won't even look at.

The first time this happened to us, we did not relise what it was or that anything was wrong. And only this past yr, 2007 did I realize what this was as I have traced back the history of boxes, dead out and all other results of the past 7 years.

Back in 2000 (Jan) my father had a small pallet( about 10 boxes) of brood boxes that were full of honey from dead outs from the fall time. He took out all the frames of honey and put in these boxes, stored them in the storage container, then in late jan. took the boxes to a bee yard so the bees could rob them out and use the honey. Strange thing happened, the bees would not touch the honey. This bee yard had 60+ strong hives is nice sunny weather of the coastal regoin. The pallet stayed for about 2 weeks and nothing. My father then picked up the boxes put back in storage. Eventually he added the frames to empty boxes that were them added to the split that spring time. He had a record honey crop by may 15th and 2 months later lost 75% of the bees. Nothing left, not explanation.

This event was repeated a few time because we did not understand or know the enemy, I hope that by fumigateing all equipment we can break the cycle.

Thanks, Larry

P.S. this is only a small bite of the history, and it leads to the current operating conclusions.

[Ian]

>>This is an observation made by myself and my beeks. It has been a point which has confussed many. Confused because who ( any beek) prior to 2000 had ever seen such a thing a dead hive not robbed out or a stack of boxes with honey in the frames that the bees won't even look at.

Larry, we have Nosema C infections in our hives up here. Also large outbreaks in Spain, which caused massive losses. Those documented losses didnt discribe such a symtom. Nor are we finding it as a symtom here from hives that died from its infection.
Nosema C has been in this country as far back as 10 years at the least, known from samples kept in storage, and there hasnt been any reference to such a symtom as far back as then,
Only are we hearing of it in relation to CCD, now. Please provide me with some references to the claims your making. It is very important to have our facts clear here, to avoid confusion amoungst beekeepers who are involved with the studdy of CCD and the beekeepers who are not.

Dont lead us to conclusions based on personal opinions. Your opinion is very interesting, and important to discussion, but leave it as such. Bring us the science to help support fact to be made. Keep thing clear.

[LSPender]

Ian, are you sure you have nosema C. ? to quote your last paragrapgh where is your prof of it.? Please post the symtoms of nosema you refer to in your area and Spain, I have always heard the symtom of not robbing out related to nosema.

I want to keep an open dialoge going so I would also ask you to tone down your request for scientific results, they are not available, As I stated, in my opinion, nosema is the problem BUT as stated by lab they only know nosema not the dif. fro A. to C. or to be completly acuate was that what even killed them. Please remember the labs need a target, what happens if whats killing the bee we can't even see?


To further the thoughts to everyone, The question that came up today is related to moisture , mold growth and temp in hive. Then related to another situation, which I need to reveal some personal info, nothing bad..... In high school I got a bad case of athletes foot (fungus) on 1 foot only at the same time I was on a long treatment of anti biotic for an unknown stepticocal infection, as long as I was taking the antibiotic I could never get rid of the athletes foot(Fungus) even though I put cream and spray on all the time. Once I stopped the anti biotic my foot cleared up. Now over the past 20 years everytime I take any anti biotic the athlete foot breaks out. ( Long explaination, stay with me) Please follow the the corelation and see if this open a new path, One thing most Beeks have always done is treat AFB with anti-biotics, both spring and fall, what is the difference between the 2 times, ... moisture temp. and ability for mold(funguses) to grow. the fungus spread easier in fall, spring the conditions are not right.

So in short my question is, is it possible that we are promoting mold growth with 3 treatment of antibiotics in the fall????

Thanks, Larry

[Michael Bush]

>is it possible that we are promoting mold growth with 3 treatment of antibiotics in the fall????

It would seem logical that your foot and a beehive have something in common and that's that they live in a sea of organisms. A proper balance of beneficial and benign organisms is essential to health. If you kill off the benign organisms that live on your skin, then others take their place, such as the athlete's foot. A beehive is a very complex place full of fungi, bacteria, mites (many kinds that are benign as well as a couple that aren't), insects etc. Killing off things with antibiotics or pesticides could upset the whole natural balance.

[Ian]

>>Ian, are you sure you have nosema C. ? to quote your last paragrapgh where is your prof of it.? Please post the symtoms of nosema you refer to in your area and Spain, I have always heard the symtom of not robbing out related to nosema.


I have been informed from the extentions cheif apiarist here in Manitoba. He was refering to samples taken as far back as 92, from hives here and in Alberta ( they are a bunch of pack rats) And have been able to identify Nosema C sproes along with Nosema A spores. I dont have any links in relation to this, nor do I have any currently from the current outbreak in Spain, but I am sure someone here would help me out with this, it is pretty common knoledge by now. Words of problems came out of Spain a few years ago, it is nothing new,

What your saying is new, and questionable. And if it is accurate, its huge news. Not only would it help spell out some of the uncertainty with CCD, but it would also provide us with a measure to help diagnos Nosema C infections.

So with that, get me your references.

>>I want to keep an open dialoge going so I would also ask you to tone down your request for scientific results, they are not avaiable

So in other words, there is no evedence for "the symtom of not robbing out being related to nosema"
Rather it is mearly your observation and opinion.

There is a big difference between studdied observation, and personal observation,

[Ian]

In Spain

www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=43163

www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/nosema-ceranae-a-new-thre.shtml

www.fortnet.org/NCBA/Nosema_ceranae_EmergentPathogen_Apis_mellifera_200 7_.pdf -

In Canada

www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215933

www.capabees.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5795

[Ian]

>>So today when I cleaned the hive I found some feces on the frames themselves on the endbars not the comb. My question is since there is alot of pollen in the comb is it safe to put out for the others to use? I'm thinking not since I just read all the articles about nosema a &c. What do I need to do? Stil very much a beginner!

Becasue you are diagnosing the loss to Nosema, and the diagnosis would be apis due to the discribed fecal material over the hive and frames, I would toss the messed up frames and youd probably be able to use the cleaner frames. The best way to manage it completely would be toss everything, but is that practial? For you to determine I guess.

But the more I learn about Nosema C, I dont know if that advice follows the same principles. your not going to get the fecal material with Noseama ceranae, as you would with apis, so you dont know if you have ceranae. Chances are, you might. It seems now more and more samples are turning up with both.

Best to send a test and know what you have got. Does it matter either way? Fumigillin works to treat both types. I really dont know the answer to this. I am still trying to grasp the severity of ceranae, even though I am familiar with apis.

Jeannie, you posted a good question, a question many beekeepers havnt graspped yet.

[NW IN Beekeeper]

[...do you have some basis for that statement? Research? Just curious as I've heard some beekeepers who seem to think Vinegar in feed was quite helpful and vinegar to clean the frames also.]

http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slovenia/en/forsgren.pdf

"In a second experiment, also with addition of 10.000 N.apis spores per bee but using only the highest concentration of acetic acid compared to non-acidified sugar solution, the rate of infection was investigated (n=210). No effect from altering the pH by addition of acetic acid could be found neither on the quantitative disease development of the parasite, nor on the infection rate of individual bees. The results from the field experiment support he laboratory results; acidification of the food of honey bees has no influence on Nosema prevalence or development."

And that makes absolute sense if you think about it.
Once the spore makes it into the gut, all bets off.
The stomach juices are going to rupture/germinate the spore and thats it.

The only thing you can do is use something that keeps the infected stomach lining from shedding new spores. That is what Fum. B. does.

But it stresses the bee because it also slows the development of all mucus lining tissues too - even the ovarian linings in the queen.

[...vinegar to clean the frames also.]

I think one could even use dog urine to clean frames and diminish the overall spore quantity. However, I do not think the concentration of acetic acid in vinegar is strong enough to devitalize the actual nosema spore. The diminished quantity could bring the hive to a non-infectious level for a temporary time, but I would expect for it to return at the next stressful time period.

So I stick with your comment:

[ If you want to fumigate you'll need Glacial acetic acid, not vinegar.]
(glacial acetic at 80% reduced to 60% at application.)

-------
I also stick with my comment that: bees will rob hives with Nosema apis Zander. I do not have experience with Nosema C. to say.

[SoCal]

Ian, I would have to say LSPender is right about the not robbing thing. Have several Italian colonies that "went away" douring the last rain, about ten days worth.the boxes, frames pollen and honey are still in the yard, and no robbing at all, it's been in the 80s the last week and still no robbing. Something is keeping the other bees away.

The same thing I obverved last year and now consider a fact. Why? I have no darn idea, but the bees seem to know something we don't. All the bees I have lost to "CCD" Nosema C, whatever, have been my Italian stock. They carry a rather massive mite load into the fall/winter around here and seem to be more sensitive to the Nosema C than my Russian or Carni stock.

I have not treated for mites since 2000 and don't plan to. Then again, the mite load would seem to make it easier (more suseptable)for the Italians to contract Nosema C or any other pathogen. Who knows, lets keep talking and most important Observing.

[dthompson]

Yes this is true, ccd boxes sit around unrobbed
When the worms come, much delayed there is only 1 or 2
Earwigs are immune, unaffected by ccd
At least they are not repelled

SoCal, Larry would you tell me if you see these physical
symptoms in infected hives?

STR (sore tummy rub)
ankle rub
(rear) feet too close

in any reasonable numbers?

Socal it sounds like the russians and carnis are
somewhat resistant? Are they in same yard?

Larry, a hunch, dust frames with sulphur powder
to disinfect, worth a test and I'm sure you have
the frames

After all you are both in CA, I'm in the frozen north

dave

[SoCal]

Dthompson, The Russians and Carni's are in the same breeder queen yard. As for resistance, I'm not sure if its the low mite counts and a vastly more hygenic behavior or something else. A higher might count in the fall/winter seems to be a precursor for destruction. Mites don't kill bees alone, however I do believe mites to be a most able VECTOR in the spread of most viral, fungal and bacterial infections.

You did bring up sulphur? good point,I am doing some tests with sulphur, but in a syrup feed.
Will also be using colloidal zinc, copper and silver in syrup feed. all of which are very good fungicides. But for frame treatments, it looks like fumigation or irradiation as a best bet.

Wayne.

[jeannie]

When I was cleaning the hive out, the inside felt moist and damp. When I took the top super off there was green mold growing inbetween the supers. Not much just an area about 1 inch. now earlier this fall I placed bales of pinestraw both behind and in front of each hive to help cut down on the wind that blew through each hive. We live on a mountain top and the wind gusts are high and I use sceenbottom boards. Now on this hive the front bale was up under the front apron tightly and the back had a 2 inch gap. THis was the only hove that the bale fit tightly. I'm beginning to think that the lack of air flow had a large part to play. We have had a warm wet, thanks for the rain, winter. Now for the frames I will toss them straight out. But the brood box I would like to keep. Does anyone know where I can get the 80% acid to use. I try to do thing naturally and really do not want to use chemicals and that does include antibiotics, so i'll try thymol this year. Thanks for all the help, does anyone have anymore thoughts?

jeannie

[dthompson]

Wayne: I had thought to try collodial silver, its not
just a fungicide. Also consider benzoic acid -- cranberry
IMO ccd does not like vinegar. ie instead of H2O use vinegar(5%)
(maybe the odor???)
After thinking about it yes my Russians are a bit more
resistant, show the infection but seem less bothered

Jeannie: You could save the frames with bleach
Tall bucket 3/4 full 50:50, soak each end 1d
Flame the boxes
For me acetic acid has been hard to find
or very expensive

dave

[Ian]

>>LSPender is right about the not robbing thing. Have several Italian colonies that "went away" douring the last rain, about ten days worth.the boxes, frames pollen and honey are still in the yard, and no robbing at all, it's been in the 80s the last week and still no robbing. Something is keeping the other bees away

Is that a symtom of Nosema C or A? Have you had left over bees, equipment tested for the presence of Nosema? Perhaps last years tests, something to lead you to the conclusion that it is the Noseam C or A repelling your bees from the dead outs?

We can keep talking ourselves round and round about, if we choose, but it will get us no where. Bring observations and opinions to the talbe as such, and let the science and studdied observations lead us to the facts.

[Michael Bush]

>Does anyone know where I can get the 80% acid to use.

From a photo supply store (if any still exist). It's what is used for Stop Bath.

[MichaelW]

Jeannie: You could save the frames with bleach
Tall bucket 3/4 full 50:50, soak each end 1d

I've been trying to find a study that shows that bleach will
kill Nosema spores. Seems like it would, but would feel
better about taking the time to do it knowing that it would.

An Important thing to note however is that if your bleach
concentration is too high, this is known to NOT work against
other spores. The bleach has to be dilute to break the surface
of the spore. 5% solution is the number I've heard to use for
general sterilization.