Micro-breeders

[Grant]

I think one of the best things to come out of the Sacramento conference was the idea of raising local queens. The term "micro-breeder" was raised, kind of like those "micro-brewers" who brew local beer with the time, patience and specialities that the mega-suds cannot replicate.

But several speakers also noted that one of the defining characteristics of high quality queens was the necessity of leaving the newly mated queen in the mating nuc for 3 to 4 weeks so she can continue to lay eggs and develop her queen scent. This also gives you a chance to test her, or at least observe her egg laying pattern.

As a micro-breeder, I would have the time and I can easily afford to tie up my equipment for that length of time. I wouldn't have to "mate and bank" my queens for a quick turnover of the mating nuc.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://www.25hives.homestead.com

[danno1800]

Thanks for posting it. -Danno

[peggjam]

Allowing the queen to lay for 4 weeks pior to picking them also improves acceptance. We are going to do that with all our queens this year. It will slow us down alittle bit, but I think it will improve our queens alot:).

[Chef Isaac]

I wouldnt be so quick to say that you would not need to turn over the mating nucs so quick. Depending on how many times you graft. If, for example, you are running a quenless cell builder, do you graft once, put a queen back in (or leave a queen cell) or do you take the queen cells out and do another round of cells??? Hard to say.

[beemandan]

I, too, have heard the idea of 'micro-breeders' bandied about. I think, as AHB continue to advance into areas where many of the queen producers are, the idea of local breeders will grow. Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it.

[BjornBee]

"I think one of the best things to come out of the Sacramento conference was the idea of raising local queens."

Imagine that. ;)

[JohnBeeMan]

I am planning to do a small amount of queen breeding in the coming year. I also think of my plans as fitting the micro-breeder category. I fit into the hobbist category even more than the sideliner.

While I do plan to raise and test queens before sale, I was also planning to do some virgin queen and queen cells. Since I expect my customers to be 'local', I expect to do follow-up on performance and replace any inferior queens.

I think this approach will be key to the small operations offering local queens to the hobbist crowd.

[tecumseh]

beemandan writes:
Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it.

tecumseh replies:
well perhaps you need to put your thinking hat back on for just a moment and/or try not to suck up too much marketing hype or sales fluff while your hat is off.

perhaps you should consider why green rearing has historically developed in some areas of the country and not others. after you ponder this for a while then consider the economic questions (fixed vs variable cost would be a good place to begin) that might suggest why micro breeder (if that ain't california manufactured marketing hype I would be quite surprised) has never worked in the past.***

I would suggest to you directly that the largest road block to making the 'micro breeder' idea viable is market timing of product (very large hurdle) and the maintance cost (smaller hurdle) associated with the hives used in supporting the queen rearing operation.

*** this is not meant to suggest to your that some of us will not continue to produce a few queens on our own or perhaps recognize how old existing patterns of doing business might be changing in some small way and then make plan to fill in the gaps.

[adamf]

I would suggest to you directly that the largest road block to making the 'micro breeder' idea viable is market timing of product (very large hurdle) and the maintance cost (smaller hurdle) associated with the hives used in supporting the queen rearing operation.

This is absolutley correct! Once one gets the rearing/production system down,
marketing the product to cover production cost in time/materials is difficult
with conventional beekeeping traditions. Teaching beekeepers that
requeening in the Late Summer/Early Fall is a feasible management
practice, along with overwinter nucs with fine newly mated and tested
queens, will help to foster the "Micro Breeder model" in the
areas of the USA where early Spring queen production
is difficult.

Keep up the interest and effort! Once local beekeepers begin
to change the way they think about managing their queens and
re-queening, locally produced quality queens and
regional queen rearing efforts will flourish!

Adam Finkelstein
adamf7@gmail.com

[beemandan]

tecumseh replies:
well perhaps you need to put your thinking hat back on for just a moment and/or try not to suck up too much marketing hype or sales fluff while your hat is off..

As cold as its been, I'm going to have to keep my hat on. My old bald head needs it.


perhaps you should consider why green rearing has historically developed in some areas of the country and not others. after you ponder this for a while then consider the economic questions (fixed vs variable cost would be a good place to begin) that might suggest why micro breeder (if that ain't california manufactured marketing hype I would be quite surprised) has never worked in the past.***.
I appreciate the lesson in business management. A little presumptuous since you don't know anything about me.


would suggest to you directly that the largest road block to making the 'micro breeder' idea viable is market timing of product (very large hurdle) and the maintance cost (smaller hurdle) associated with the hives used in supporting the queen rearing operation..
More lessons! You sure are a smart guy. I wish I'd known all that stuff before I embarrassed myself with my earlier post.

*** this is not meant to suggest to your that some of us will not continue to produce a few queens on our own or perhaps recognize how old existing patterns of doing business might be changing in some small way and then make plan to fill in the gaps.
Works for you sharp business types. I guess the rest of us slower folks will just have to sit back and watch in envy.

[sierrabees]

The biggest downside to the micro-breeder concept that I can see would occur if a small time breeder failed to incorporate occasional new genetics into his program. We tend to breed from our best queens, who tend to produce the best queens from which we breed again and also use as drone rearing queens. It doesn't take many generations for this to narrow the gene pool since even the local ferals will start picking up your genetics from your drones. For this reason, I try to introduce two or three queens from a breeder at least 100 miles away from me and 100 miles from the last breeder I bought from every year.

[tecumseh]

beemandan writes:
More lessons! You sure are a smart guy. I wish I'd known all that stuff before I embarrassed myself with my earlier post.

tecumseh replies:
maybe yes and maybe know?

when a person makes some absolute statement (reference my earlier snippet of beemandan's post) that goes totally againist prevailing marketing trends (see adamf comments) you have done a pretty good job of painting yourself into a corner.

a bit thin skinned are we?

[beemandan]

when a person makes some absolute statement (reference my earlier snippet of beemandan's post) that goes totally againist prevailing marketing trends (see adamf comments) you have done a pretty good job of painting yourself into a corner.


*Its going to be difficult to find many arguments against it. *

This absolute statement that goes totally against prevailing market trends?
This is what triggered my business management lecture?

a bit thin skinned are we?
I'm thinkin' we are.

[beemandan]

The biggest downside to the micro-breeder concept that I can see would occur if a small time breeder failed to incorporate occasional new genetics into his program.

Look out man! I'm thinkin' you're about to get a lecture.

[tecumseh]

the problem that sierrabee references would have been a problem 20 years ago.... with the availability of AI queens this particular problem is not so undouable as other problems (previous referred to as large hurdles). this one structural difference (over time) in the market (ie the availability of AI queens) is also why some folks presumption that northern bred 'winter hardy' bees relies much more on wishful thinking than on practical concerns.

end of lecture....

[Kieck]

I don't object in the least to "micro-breeders," if that's the proper term. As others have suggested on other threads, a difference does lie between "queen producers" and "queen breeders." I wonder if the "micro-breeder" term is somewhat confused, but "micro queen producer" sounds as if the beekeeper is producing exceptionally small queens.

Having said that, I'm not sure that "micro-breeders" can really keep up with demand. Based on the constraints of time and space that I imagine, I can't fathom a "micro-breeder" being able to fulfil, say, 100 orders averaging 10 queens (is that a reasonable number? I have no way of knowing) in one month. To me, that would require more than 1000 nucs tied up just for the production of queens for that month, and at that point, the queen producer ceases to be "micro" by the way I would define it.

On the other hand, if enough small scale producers start marketing their queens, perhaps many "micro-breeders" will be able to provide the same numbers as the larger queen producers. Think enough capable and willing small-scale producers are out there?

[Grant]

I think you raise an important point, Kieck,

I'm not sure myself what the upside potential is, and I doubt if anyone is ready to quit their day job to micro-breed queens. In my mind, as I resonate with this terminology, a micro-breeder is local, raising local queens to local beekeepers. From my perspective, it's a small, regionalized endeavor, probably not even involving mail-order. I think I would be my own best customer.

In the beer industry, they say the "big boys" spill more beer on the floor in one day than the micro-brewers produce all year. I'm not sure that's correct, but the idea is the micro-brewer is no threat and doesn't even plan on competing on such a large scale. I doubt if the micro-breeder of queens is going to put any quality, large-scale queen breeder out of business.

And I would also imagine the micro-breeder isn't adverse to ordering in some quality genetics from the larger breeders. So in reality, micro-breeders are micro-producers, but the alliteration with brewer/breeder seems to stick better.

Grant
Jackson, MO

http://www.25hives.homestead.com

[BjornBee]

Kieck,
I think the micro-breeder will make impacts and gains in the years ahead.

One of the traditional problems that breeders had outside the deep south and west coast had was the ability to produce, market, and profit from their efforts.

Several things have come about in the past 10 or so years. One has been those industry leaders such as Kirk Webster and others who have shown that overwintering nucs can be done in the north.

The other is the use of Russian and carniolan bee lines that make overwintering of nucs possible. Some of the practices are just not manageable with prolific non-stop Italian lines.

But its also an educational drive that will build the micro-breeder business base, at least in the northern part of the country.

The days of going into winter with what you need or project as needed for next year, and coming out in spring with some loss, and then jumping onto the package and early queen bandwagon needs to be thought out. And splitting the strongest hives preflow and damaging your honey crop is also a thing to consider not doing.

I think educating beekeepers in the north about building up their numbers after the flow, going into winter with a surplus of hives, and working what you come out of winter rewards the beekeeper in so many ways.

Some benefits include:
*You don't split your hives and damage your honey production.
*You get better queens later in the spring.
*You split your hives and build nucs at a time when these management tasks can be used as a mite control IPM as well. (Brood breaks/artificial swarming)
*You can purchase regional/local stock.

Yes, there will always be the package business and mass produced queens that will fill a void in the business. But for any micro-breeder, especially in the north, the business demand is beyond production. And overwintered nucs for many smaller operation is a real product that many are willing to choose.

I lose some business for those who feel the earth will stop rotating if they don't have bees the first of April. And so the packages will continue. But I have many people, and clubs are starting to band together, in supporting the micro-breeder, northern breeders, and other local/region produced products.

I see a change in beekeepers attitude, and an understanding from beekeepers who are willing to wait for a northern raised queen, or a nuc that may be ready a little later than traditional package delivery times.

I don't see micro-breeders keeping up with demand either. But what a great place to be as a micro-breeder. ;)

[Dan Williamson]

>>I lose some business for those who feel the earth will stop rotating if they don't have bees the first of April.

Agree. I've also seen some of this. It seems to be alot of new beekeepers who are desperate to get bees and don't understand the difference between quality nucs/queens vs those pushed out in quantity.

I think that the overwintered nucs will fill this role if/when people begin to understand that a QUALITY queen raised in the fall and overwintered is often a better option than a current year early April queen that is untested.

Obviously that may not hold true for every queen produced but you get the point.

I plan on wintering nucs next season with the purpose of offering them as nucs in Spring of 2009. I think Kirk Webster has the right idea... Now we just need to help buyers understand the benefits.

[fat/beeman]

well I found that doing lot less and doing lot better pays off in long run. I built up my operation doing it small but better also supplying the market with what they need ie small cell or selling mediums even shipping where the big guys wont.
that's my opion for what it is worth.
Don

[TonyW]

Dan -
I followed the link to your Web Page and you have some very good info for beginners. It looks like your class is first-rate. It would have prevented some of my mistakes but I guess on the bright side I have learned from my beekeeping flubs.

I am hoping to raise a few queens this year for my own use. I guess I would be smaller than a micro-breeder, more like a nano-breeder or pico-breeder. It seems that local queens would make sense and our Ohio State Beekeepers Association has started up the Ohio Queen Rearing Project. They are holding classes and have a nice Handbook
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/OSBA%20Queen%20Rearing%20Project/overview.html

Hopefully I can learn enough to contribute in some way.

[BjornBee]

Dan -
I followed the link to your Web Page and you have some very good info for beginners. It looks like your class is first-rate. It would have prevented some of my mistakes but I guess on the bright side I have learned from my beekeeping flubs.

I am hoping to raise a few queens this year for my own use. I guess I would be smaller than a micro-breeder, more like a nano-breeder or pico-breeder. It seems that local queens would make sense and our Ohio State Beekeepers Association has started up the Ohio Queen Rearing Project. They are holding classes and have a nice Handbook
http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/OSBA%20Queen%20Rearing%20Project/overview.html

Hopefully I can learn enough to contribute in some way.

Tony,
I think you will find queen rearing rewarding. I think every beekeeper should try it.

Is anyone here familiar with the Ohio queen rearing efforts? I am interested in learning about as much as i can about the different organizations. But I have some questions concerning the website that tony has listed.

It seems that two distinct areas of effort is being pursued. One is the efforts to produce a Ohio strain that is better than what they have now. And the other is two educate as many beekeepers possible to raise queens themselves.

Unto themselves, both are worthy efforts. But combined, I'm not so sure.

The website encourages Ohio beekeepers to get involved into queen rearing, and sell queens.

I kind of question the ability to train 500 or 1000 individual beekeepers in queen rearing and somehow tie this into developing a particular line of bees. To maintain a true line of bees is a overwhelming task unto itself. And it would be better with a structured format such as the Russian bee breeders association with a core of breeders.

But the Ohio program has I think nine region coordinators, and they are training hundreds of beekeepers to take part.

Can someone explain this to me. What the goals are, what they are trying to achieve, and what the mechanics are behind their efforts.

Thank you.

[Dale Hodges]

Maybe I don't belong in this discussion because of my location,buuuttt... I thought one of the main reasons queens were raised in the south was to replace winter losses. The northen beeks were in a hurry to get bees and queens in thier empty boxes and get them back into production, plus the fact of not having to store and protect all that comb. I can see the arugument for wanting queens that are breed for cold weather, and late summer/fall replacement has it advantages. I'm wondering how many of the larger operations can wait till late spring to "rehive". Are yall really seeing a lot of difference between "southern" bred queens, and "northern" bred queens? I'm not disagreeing with anyone just asking.

[adamf]

Are yall really seeing a lot of difference between "southern" bred queens, and "northern" bred queens?

Hello Dale,
A good question. Seems like the concept of regional selection or regional specificity
is hitting home with beekeepers now. The term "Micro-Breeder"
reflects this new awareness.

If a Micro-Breeder was located in a Northern clime, he/she would be selecting
in the local population and thus those queens and colonies would potentially
be more suitable to that region than queens selected in a clime unlike the local one.

The bottom line with any bee breeding is the quality of the
queens --from the breeding stock on through to mating.
Local queens do not have to travel as far.
Reduced stress on queens ensures greater quality.

Thus, at least from my read, the "North vs South" in queens and
with "Micro-breeding" is more of a local vs remote issue.


Adam Finkelstein
adamf7@gmail.com

[Grant]

I think you raise a great question. I used to order southern queens because they were ready months ahead of my local ability to raise queens, largely due to cold weather.

In the past, I bought southern queens, mated and ready to go, in order to replace flagging queens or to make splits from strong hives. And getting a hive/split up and running FAST was my goal. In that respect, no, I could not wait for the right weather to raise my local queens, make split, and expect a good honey crop.

My intent now, as a pico-producer, is to raise summer queens, make fall splits/requeening, and get a hive settled for winter. While I don't have a brand-spanking new southern queen, I have one that is six months old, tested, broke-in, accepted and ready to go when the weather finally moderates.

Aside from other issues, that's what I like about raising local queens. I will never beat the weather and I can't get the jump like my southern colleagues.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[beemandan]

Dan -
I followed the link to your Web Page and you have some very good info for beginners. It looks like your class is first-rate. It would have prevented some of my mistakes but I guess on the bright side I have learned from my beekeeping flubs.
Thank you TonyW. I’ve always thought that beekeeping half day classes often produced a lot of frustration and very few new beekeepers. I try to reduce the amount of learning from beekeeping flubs….which might explain my signature line.
I thought one of the main reasons queens were raised in the south was to replace winter losses.
At the risk of getting another lecture from the panther guy, I think the fact that many queen ‘producers’ are in the south is most closely tied to package bee production. The earlier that packages can be made available, the better their chances to survive and thrive. So, since earlier packages can be produced in the south it only makes sense for them to also produce early queens to go into those packages. And, since they’re already set up to produce queens they might as well supply them throughout the summer.

There aren’t many reasons, in my opinion, that later season, geographically successful queens shouldn’t be produced locally. Not an absolute statement….my opinion only. I believe that the Ohio Queen Producers are just the beginning.

[deknow]

bjorn,

i can't answer your questions directly, as i know nothing about the ohio queen breeders program (but i do know a beekeeper who grew up in ohio, and talks about meetings where people brought a few queens to meetings and swapped them around...so there may be a history that has influenced the current program).

although bees are not apples, one can look at the activities of john chapman (johnny appleseed), as they are documented in "botany of desire" by michael pollan and see some possible benefits. for different reasons, bees and apples don't necessarily resemble their parents (at least open mated bees...i can't speak for ai). a seed from an apple will not produce a tree that produces similar apples (which is why grafting is the cornerstone to the apple industry), and a daughter queen who's mother mates with 15 or so different drones will not necessarily produce similar workers (or queens) as her mother did.

johnny appleseed was not planting trees for eating apples..his trees were for cider. grafting was a known technique, and there were several "old world" apple varieties that would have been good candidates for grafting if eating apples were desired. for cider, any old fruit (even if ugly and not too sweet) will do, so johnny didn't spread grafts around...he used seeds from behind the cider mill....of which each seed had an infinitesimally small chance of bearing "yummy fruit" for eating.

but the genetic dice were rolled....and of the thousands of cider orchards started from his seeds, a few rare instances of a great apple grew and was noticed. ...the grafts from these trees are the "new world apples" that we know and love, and we would never have them if we persisted in grafting the old lines, and only produced from "the best stock".

i see a parallel with bees and bee breeding. every location and management/selection style applies it's own pressures, and provides it's own limited isolation. as an extreme example, i'd suggest that if one were using a migratory operation as a basis, you would be selecting for bees that build up and can take advantage of a constant flow broken up with short moving trips....whereas a stationary operation might be selecting for bees that can take advantage of one or two large flows without going through all their stores in a dearth. these are related (quick/anticipated buildup), and contrasting (large population all season) needs. some people inspect weekly, some go into hives 4-5 times a year, some areas get cold quickly, some warm up early.....to keep the genepool diverse and alive...and more importantly, to "discover" the bees we need as those needs change, it's imperative that we have large numbers of small breeders who are not trying to "protect their line of bees".

i agree that pure lines are going to be impossible for small beekeepers to maintain..but for myself, i'd rather have a system that can be somewhat self contained (as in not buying queens) that might be a little less productive than produce a little more and be relying on crosses of pure lines that come from a breeder.

with a good inspection program coupled with organized breeding, i think one can "roll the dice" (with small scale "amature" breeding) _and_ select the best to incorporate into the more organized breeding program. this seems like a win/win to me...mostly because it involves more beekeepers in queen breeding....and allows the success of the amature to be recognized and incorporated into the rest of the program.

deknow

[Mitch]

I was at at meeting the Ohio State Beekeepers Had at Troy ohio this fall.The meeting was about selecting breeder queens.It was a very good and informative meeting.I am just getting into the idea of raising queens mostly for my own use.What i got out of the meeting is they are trying to make beekeepers self suffciant.At the same time they want to educate beeks on the selction of stock to make high quality queens not just produce alot of queens.I have read lately that several other states are doing the same thing.I see alot of good comeing from such meetings.If nothing else you will learn what to ask when buying queens from anyone big or small.

I do plan on going to Tim Tarheit's queen classes this season.This another good thing comeing from this typ of meeting.Where and who to contact to get some help.

I to see the micro breeder makeing an impact in the bee world and maybe sooner than we may all think.Sure there will be plenty of bumps in the road but alot of good can come from such programs.

[HarryVanderpool]

Micro-breeder?
We have always accepted that queen rearing was another step in becoming a good beekeeper.
Here is another BUZZ word: sustainability.
It seems to me that every beekeeper at some point should at least know how to rear queens and have experience with all of the timing and steps involved. Even if one would rather purchace queens from another source, I feel that it is very important to have the skills and be ready to jump into action if there was a shortage or worse.....
For now, I will continue to purchace queens. But every other year I will continue to set up and run a few batches just to keep tuned up.
;)
Over wintering nucs up north is nothing new.
Well, it's new to me but not many others.
And, overwintered nucs DO NOT have to be russian or carniolean.
I am taking 17 nucs to California that are Italian, and Cordovan.
YES, they are jammed with bees and have taken up quite a bit of their stores; PERFECT!!
Follow this thread through all 3 pages for some really cool Northern nuc operations:

http://orsba.proboards27.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1162322072

[CSbees]

If it were up to me, I would never like to see anyone order queens from "big-time" producers. This just waters down one's stock in general. I believe in finding a good stock and sticking with it. I also believe that natural requeening is a good trait to have in bees. They will know when a new queen is necessary. I do not think requeening every year is a good idea either. One of my best queens will be going into her third year double cropping and is still outlaying any of my other much younger queens. I have bred off this "mother queen" and all the queens that have resulted are far superior to ordered queens.

[tecumseh]

the 'consumers' preference for a very early queen or packages should not be discounted by anyone and there are plenty of practical reason for this as several people have suggested.... replacing queens that have failed in the early spring and boosting (typically done with packages with no queens) lagging hives being concerns that just will not wait.

beemandan writes:
I think the fact that many queen ‘producers’ are in the south is most closely tied to package bee production. The earlier that packages can be made available, the better their chances to survive and thrive. So, since earlier packages can be produced in the south it only makes sense for them to also produce early queens to go into those packages. And, since they’re already set up to produce queens they might as well supply them throughout the summer.

tecumseh replies:
most southern queen/package producers* were designed around the idea of taking off surplus bees and weight before the bees are moved back north. when most of these operations were first put together and everything was about collecting a honey crop (in tems of profit) the really huge potential honey crops were always northward. so the idea was to skim off the excess bees (into packages) and honey (into split)... generate a bit of cash flow and then move north.

*quite typically most if not all southern queen producers also have a northern residence during the summer and there is about a 50/50 likelyhood those 'southern queen producer' family originated from either minnesota or north dakota.

the sentence that really caught my eye is the last in the paragraph.... I would suggest to you that one of the evolving niche in the queen rearing market is the trend towards some big time 'southern' queen producers not producing queen much beyond very early summer. I do see this niche evolving here in that the small hive beetle is making it increasingly difficult to produce queens without significant 'personal attention' as we drift into the summer months. for the large operation this path may becomes more necessary since by late spring/early fall most of the labor force has move back north with the bees so 'personal attention' becomes almost impossible.

hopefully my 'lecture' was not too long winded.

[Michael Palmer]

the 'consumers' preference for a very early queen or packages should not be discounted by anyone and there are plenty of practical reason for this as several people have suggested.... replacing queens that have failed in the early spring and boosting (typically done with packages with no queens) lagging hives being concerns that just will not wait.

Well we'll just have to change that perception, won't we. There's nothing better than requeening a weak hive with an overwintered nuc, bustin' out of their box. That's how you get northern raised queens early.
Mike

[sierrabees]

Tecumseh:

One of the advantages of being around a while is you can remember what it was like 20 years ago. If you look back at the Roman Empire you can see the parrallels with the "American Empire" today. Progress does not erase the lessons of history nor does it make them irrelevant, it only encourages people to ignore them.

In my lifetime I have seen the German Shephard dog go from a medium sized, vigerous, long lived animal to one where you could look at a new thoroughbred pup and make a reasonable guess as to how long, (one doesn't consider the question of "if?") it would have to be put to sleep because it couldn't use it's hind legs. That was the result of inbreeding for traits the breeders considered important without regard for the need for genetic diversity. I could name fifty breeds of animals with differant genetic problems resulting from "pure" breeding. I don't believe that mankind is competent to determine what traits are desireable in our own species, let alone in another species or to ballance the good with the bad in a way that benifits the species in question. Put a pair of comercially produced domestic turkeys together and they won't be able to reproduce because the breast muscles of the Tom are so huge he can't reach the female to copulate. That species will only survive for one generation without human intervention by AI.

My suggestion was that a small breeder should introduce new genes into his local gene pool from time to time to avoid this sort of thing. It doesn't matter if the new genes come from open bred queens, or AI queens, or feral swarm queens, as long as there is a reasonable amount of variation from the population in the breeder's imediate area. Then if the beekeeper allows nature to have some control over the surviving population he/she should be able to maintain a viable but slightly variable genetic line indefinately. I'm not saying we should go back to the old German Black Bees because they have been able to survive without us, but just that we don't want to turn our bees into critters that have to have a dozen differant chemicals and be pampered (what Sue Colby calls welfare bees) in order to make it from one year to the next. Genetic diversity and natural selection are the key ingredients of a strong population that is able to bounce back from environmental stress. AI is a means of excercising more control over some of the desirable traits, but if one depends exclusively on it for production stock they will find that something is always lost in the process of tight selection, and often that something which is lost is critical to the survival of the population. Most good AI breeders warn their customers that their AI queens are for queen breeding only and not to try to use them for production. Most good production queen breeders only use AI queens to introduce a specific trait into their line and make no effort to use a large enough percentage of AI queens that the controled genetics can overwhelm the traits in their original production line.

AI is a good tool, but don't depend on a screwdriver to drive a nail. Don't depend on AI to provide diversity, it isn't designed for that job.

[BEES4U]

I was raised in the Chico area of California.
Here are some reasons why the queen breeders are historically in that area.
1.0 Easier to move the bees into the almonds for building bees. Some of those moves are onley 20-30 miles.
1.1 I flew into the Chico airport to visit relatives and when we starting to approach the airfield I had the great delight to see thousands of bee HIVES staged on the volcanic soil base for almonds. AT MY MOM AND DAD'S SMALL CATTLE RANCH I WOULD WATCH MANY TRUCK LOADS OF BEES GOING INTO ALMOND POLLINATION, SOME OF THOSE POLLINATORS MADE 2-3 ROUND TRIPS PER MORNING !
2.0 The flowering sequence kind of goes like this.
WILLOWS, ALMONDS, PRUNES, PEACHES, PEARS, PLUMS, MUSTARD AND OTHER WILDFLOWERS, MANZANITA --WE HAVE 30 SPECIES IN CALIFORNIA AND A 30" PLUS RAINY SEASON.
3.0 IF YOU GO UP INTO THE REDDING AND RED BLUFF AREA YOU HAVE EVEN MORE RAIN.
4.0 THE ORCHARDIST MAY ALSO SEED THE ORCHARD WITH WINTER COVER CROPS WHICH IS REAL NICE FOR BUILDING BEES.
5.0 THE CANADIANS COULD MAKE THE ANNUAL TRIP FOR PACKAGES.
6.0 THE ABUNDANCE OF OAK TREES IS USED TO SHADE THE HIVE LATER IN THE QUEEN SEASON.
7.0 THE AREA IS BLESSED WITH A LOT OF NATURA RESOURCES.
7.1 JUST THINK ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF WILLOWS ON BOTH BANKS OF THE SACRAMENTO RIVER AND ALL OF THE STREAMS THAT CONVERGED WITH IT TO CARRY WATER TO S.F.
8.0 you have 4 + of the largest queen and package bee producers in the USA within 30 to 45 miles of each other. (That must get exciteing once in a while!) (Spell check is not working.)

Regards,
Ernie
Lucas Apiaries

[tecumseh]

michael palmer writes:
Well we'll just have to change that perception, won't we.

tecumseh writes:
this is call eduation but don't expect consumer preference to be an easy thing to alter. so expect this 'reeducation' to take a while.

sierrabee writes:
In my lifetime I have seen the German Shephard dog go from a medium sized

tecumseh replies:
exactly... I look at this as when fashion over rules all your good senses. what was that old line? "it' better to look good, than to feel good." anyway you point is well taken that maintaining some diversity in stock is not easy for a large queen breeder and is likely to be even more difficult for the small producer. from my prospective (my problem) I find (as a fairly small producer just identifying 'the very best' is not so simple. expanding on this to 'maintaining genetic diversity' is even more mind boggling.

and thanks for the list Bee4u. there is an lot of information in that one post. I personally enjoyed your list of nectar/pollen sources and sequence. as I have suggest before I suspect that my fairly famous neighbors just down the road are not there simply because of their name. or to put it in real estate term... location, location, location.

[tecumseh]

michael palmer writes:
Well we'll just have to change that perception, won't we.

tecumseh writes:
this is call eduation but don't expect consumer preference to be an easy thing to alter. so expect this 'reeducation' to take a while.

sierrabee writes:
In my lifetime I have seen the German Shephard dog go from a medium sized

tecumseh replies:
exactly... I look at this as when fashion over rules all your good senses. what was that old line? "it' better to look good, than to feel good." anyway you point is well taken that maintaining some diversity in stock is not easy for a large queen breeder and is likely to be even more difficult for the small producer. from my prospective (my problem) I find (as a fairly small producer just identifying 'the very best' is not so simple. expanding on this to 'maintaining genetic diversity' is even more mind boggling.

and thanks for the list Bee4u. there is an lot of information in that one post. I personally enjoyed your list of nectar/pollen sources and sequence. as I have suggest before I suspect that my fairly famous neighbors just down the road are not there simply because of their name. or to put it in real estate term... location, location, location.

[beemandan]

tecumseh replies:
most southern queen/package producers* were designed around the idea of taking off surplus bees and weight before the bees are moved back north. when most of these operations were first put together and everything was about collecting a honey crop (in tems of profit) the really huge potential honey crops were always northward. so the idea was to skim off the excess bees (into packages) and honey (into split)... generate a bit of cash flow and then move north.

Why is the original intent important? Or was that just an attempt to educate us (me)? It did add unnecessarily to the length of your lecture. Actually I expect that the origins you suggest are probably true for Texas producers but less likely for most of those in the southeast.

I would suggest to you that one of the evolving niche in the queen rearing market is the trend towards some big time 'southern' queen producers not producing queen much beyond very early summer. I do see this niche evolving here in that the small hive beetle is making it increasingly difficult to produce queens without significant 'personal attention' as we drift into the summer months. for the large operation this path may becomes more necessary since by late spring/early fall most of the labor force has move back north with the bees so 'personal attention' becomes almost impossible.
I find it interesting that you would readily accept shb as a problem but quickly reject ahb.
You and I clearly have a different idea of what constitutes a niche market. If ‘big time southern queen producers stop producing queens beyond early summer’ I would qualify the resulting market as somewhat bigger than a niche.

[tecumseh]

beemandan ask (I think?):
Why is the original intent important? Or was that just an attempt to educate us (me)? It did add unnecessarily to the length of your lecture. Actually I expect that the origins you suggest are probably true for Texas producers but less likely for most of those in the southeast.

tecumseh replies:
well when migratory beekeeping first started it was based on several reason that now may have evolved into something as much habitual as anything else (there are still some good economic reasons for the movement) . I would suspect that my 'take' on the families involved in queen rearing is pretty much the same in the southeastern us of a and california. the places those families originated from would be somewhat different. my point being that although some may tag these folks as southern queen breeder their origins are not typically southern.

then beemandan writes:
I find it interesting that you would readily accept shb as a problem but quickly reject ahb.
You and I clearly have a different idea of what constitutes a niche market. If ‘big time southern queen producers stop producing queens beyond early summer’ I would qualify the resulting market as somewhat bigger than a niche.

tecumseh suggest:
well as to the first sentence.... how did you get there?

certainly both the shb and ahb are problems. the two may be of greater or lesser problems depending on geographical location. depending on the degree of the problem, producers (of honey or bees) just has to learn to adapt to these changes (or just give it up).

as to your question in regards to niche... certainly our definitions are different. mine has been derived from three degrees out of business schools.... and yours?

a niche is any subset of an existing market. it does not have to necessarily be extreme (micro) small to be defined as a niche. a person that can take advantage of a niche (for god abhors a vacume) usually does so first because they recognize that some (typically larger) competitor has abdonded the niche and they are in a place or time to service this little corner of the market (and make a profit in the bargain).

[Michael Palmer]

michael palmer writes:
Well we'll just have to change that perception, won't we.

tecumseh writes:
this is call eduation but don't expect consumer preference to be an easy thing to alter. so expect this 'reeducation' to take a while.

I've always felt that trying to change popular opinion isn't done by telling folks, "Your wrong, do it my way." Rather, the best way to to change things is to follow your own path, and show by example. Over the last 3 years, I have been giving talks all over the Northeast. The focus of my presentations is the need to raise our own stocks from the bees that perform best in our own area, under our own management plans. I began this crusade, and that's what it is to me, because my good buddy Kirk Webster kept telling me that no one was listening to him. Now, I know the benefits to my operation in following the plan the he started years ago. My apiaries improved to the extent that I became a passionate proponent of the management scheme. Now, they're listening!

I've seen more and more beekeepers take up the challenge, and become more successful and better beekeepers. I could give you examples from all over North America of those that have seen the wisdom in this plan, and relate stories of their success. Beekeepers from Maine to North Carolina, and from the mid-west to Alaska have had the same results.

The idea starts to spread slowly, but has snowballed in the last year. I can hardly keep up with all the clubs who want to hear the presentation. And as those who have adopted the plan begin to relate their success to others, everyone wants to get on board, and so many want stock raised in the north that it is a bit overwhelming.

I think a part of this re-thinking by the beekeeping population is the fact that Africans, and SHB are spreading across the traditional southern queen rearing areas.

It's too bad that we didn't listen to the bee masters of the last generation sooner. Masters like Charles Mraz of Middlebury Vermont, and Karl Showler of the UK. They tried to tell us that our best bees were raised from our own best stocks. But, popular belief, fostered by faulty education, pushed beekeepers to jump on the southern queen/package bandwagon. We've spent generations on that bandwagon.

Hopefully, over the next few years, through regional bee breeding groups, we can teach more beekeepers how to raise quality stock from what they already have. I can't hardly wait to see how the health of our bees improves.
Mike

[tecumseh]

well mr palmer don't get me wrong I do aggree with your efforts and (at every opportunity) encourage the very thing you promote. I have always though that much of the incidental benefits, like making better beekeepers, are quite evident from setting yourself on the path to learning (actually any body of knowledge) that make you dig a bit deeper.

then mr palmer writes:
It's too bad that we didn't listen to the bee masters of the last generation sooner. Masters like Charles Mraz of Middlebury Vermont, and Karl Showler of the UK. They tried to tell us that our best bees were raised from our own best stocks. But, popular belief, fostered by faulty education, pushed beekeepers to jump on the southern queen/package bandwagon. We've spent generations on that bandwagon.

tecumseh replies:
well I always enjoyed mr mraz writing in the journal and agreed with much of what he proposed.... but evidence does suggest that mr mraz queens were (how to say this politely) less that average (I think it was Eisenhower who said that half the world was less than average). actually (referencing mental notes only) in a blind test of a half dozen us queen breeders mr mraz queens were dead last (or to put it more in the mode of the test 100% of his queen were superseceded within 60 days of being installed).

[beemandan]

well when migratory beekeeping first started it was based on several reason that now may have evolved into something as much habitual as anything else (there are still some good economic reasons for the movement)
The first package bee shipments from the south were made around 1912, long before migratory beekeeping became a significant business. Package bees in the southeast were and typically are produced as an entirely separate business from pollination.

as to your question in regards to niche... certainly our definitions are different. mine has been derived from three degrees out of business schools.... and yours?

a niche is any subset of an existing market. it does not have to necessarily be extreme (micro) small to be defined as a niche. a person that can take advantage of a niche (for god abhors a vacume) usually does so first because they recognize that some (typically larger) competitor has abdonded the niche and they are in a place or time to service this little corner of the market (and make a profit in the bargain).

A definition I’ve seen includes the following:
‘Niche market ventures may become profitable even though they are by nature small in comparison to the mainstream marketplace, due to the benefits of specialization and focus on small identifiable market segments; even without the benefit of economy of scale. Niche markets may be ignored or discounted by large businesses due to what they consider to be small potential; this in turn is part of the process that makes the niche market available to smaller businesses. The key to capitalizing on a niche market is to find or develop a market niche that has customers who are accessible, that is growing fast enough, and that is not owned by one established vendor already.’

But, since you’re the guy with the PhD (three degrees = PhD, right?) in business, I’ll defer to your definition.

[Michael Palmer]

.... but evidence does suggest that mr mraz queens were (how to say this politely) less that average (I think it was Eisenhower who said that half the world was less than average). actually (referencing mental notes only) in a blind test of a half dozen us queen breeders mr mraz queens were dead last (or to put it more in the mode of the test 100% of his queen were superseceded within 60 days of being installed).

I remember the article in Gleanings, wasn't it? I even told a story about it at his memorial service. Ill get to that in a minute.

You say 100% of his queens were superceded within 60 days. I don't remember that part, but may be as you say. I believe the queens were raised in North Carolina by a queen producer there. I can't remember the man's name, but it was Harrells, North Carolina. Queens raised by this gentleman, brom breeders supplied by Mraz. At the time, several of us questioned the test. How can you judge the quality of a stock, or the value of a man's life work, using 12 queens? 12 queens raised by someone else. Doesn't the fact that all 12 were superceded raise a flag? Perhaps the problem was in the hands of the rearer, and not the breeder.

I knew Charlie, and am still friends with his family. In fact, I'm having supper on Monday with his son and grandson. I knew his bees, and still do. They in fact, are quite good. They winter well here in Northern Vermont. He raised his bees for so long in the same place, from survivors, that they really became in tune with his location. His main operation was, and is in Addison County Vermont. Great farm land for dairy. Massive fields for this region, on lake layed clay. The Mraz's are religious about not feeding sugar. The bees make it or perish.

The flow in that county is a bit different than other areas in the Champlain Valley. There is almost no fall flow. Sometimes a bit of alfalfa from third cut that was allowed to bloom. Basically, there's a good early flow, which shuts down in late July. Rarely is there any goldenrod or aster.

His bees are geared to make their crop from the early flow, and then shut down. They are conservative in that respect. They winter in a deep, with a medium below and on top. These hives are heavy as lead going into winter.


One thing the study did get right...his bees were quite defensive. I used to put my veil on before I got out of the truck. A flaw easily fixed, but Charlie didn't think it was a flaw. He thought bee venom was good medicine. I've seen him taking off honey...never wore a veil. Stingers hanging out of his nose, and him like they weren't there. But that was his medicine, and he claims venom saved him from scarlet fever damage to his body.

So, the story.

After the study was published, that claimed Charlie's bees were mean, he published his own article. I remember the picture of him standing there in his underwear. He said "He worked a hundred colonies a day in his BVD's, and his bees weren't mean to him. In fact, getting stung a lot would make a man of you."

Well, a woman wrote a letter to the editor of Gleanings. She told how "she respected Charlie, and enjoyed reading his columns. But one thing she couldn't agree with. No matter how many times she was stung by her bees, it was never going to make a man out of her."

Touchet!

[tecumseh]

thanks for the story mr palmer... I did enjoy that little yarn.

and yes I seem to remember that mr mraz also pushed sting therapy back when sting therapy was often time considered the thinking of lunatics and snake oil salesman. well I guess science has now pretty much proven that mr mraz wasn't such a lunatic after all (your story about him standing beside his hive in his underwear might perhap alter my conclusion somewhat).

actually in regards to the blind test of the queens (I can only recall it was in the journal where mr mraz did not write his monthly column) the results were so complete, so absolute that I really wondered if some of the results was pointing to something else besides the quality of the queens. the failure rate (and I should say that mr mraz was not alone in terms of queen producers who demonstated approximately the same level of failure rate) made me suspect that something else was at work besides the skill or talents (or lack there of) of the queen breeder. my mind (partially moulded via way too much education) tend to EXPECT things to be distributed in a 'somewhat' normal manner around some central tendency and the outcome in this particular test was absolutely NOT normal which usually means (in my experience) that something else is going on than what you think.

[Michael Palmer]

[QUOTE=tecumseh;287470]thanks for the story mr palmer... I did enjoy that little yarn. QUOTE]

Thanks for the understanding reply. One favor I have to ask.

Please don't make me feel older than I already do...and drop the Mr. Ok?
My name is Mike. :-)

[deknow]

hmmm, well, a couple of thoughts:

1. i can't speak for others, but "look how long my _degree_ is" type of arguments make the poster look silly...it's about 1 step away from "my name is in who's who".

2. i'm not familiar with the study on the mraz queens...but from what has been described, it sounds like his stock was successful in it's original location...the supercedure could be due to any number of factors that might or might not have anything to do with the quality of the stock....but isn't this the same thing that people complain about in the north re:southern queens? could this study be evidence that locally bred bees are well adapted to their locality...and perhaps not to another locality?

deknow

[Michael Palmer]

hmmm, well, a couple of thoughts: could this study be evidence that locally bred bees are well adapted to their locality...and perhaps not to another locality?

deknow

Or it could mean the nobody can raise 100% good queens. You can do everything right, and pay attention to all the details, and have drone layers and queens that get superceded right away.

[Michael Palmer]

Some other things about Charles that you may not know.

Anybody use a fume board to remove the crop? Marz invented it. Used...they still use...a different chemical, but he started fume board use.

Do you have an overflow alarm on your bulk tank> He invented it. It used to be sold through Maxant.

Do you use an automatic uncapper? He invented one of the first. Used two rotating drums of picks and a conveyor to take the combs through the pick setup. That was Maxant's first uncapper, before he went to the chain uncapper. They now use a Gunness.

Do you collect bee venom? He invented the electrical divise that everyone uses to collect venom.

Quite a list. Travel about anywhere in the beekeeping world, and mention Charlie Mraz. Yucatan, Eastern Europe, wherever. You'll have a topic of conversation with the local beekeepers...who Charlie helped out with setting up queen rearing programs, or apitherapy groups.

[tecumseh]

michael palmer ask:
Please don't make me feel older than I already do...and drop the Mr. Ok?
My name is Mike.

tecumseh replies:
well I think that you and I are about the same age and I do KNOW what you mean.

then mike writes:
Or it could mean the nobody can raise 100% good queens. You can do everything right, and pay attention to all the details, and have drone layers and queens that get superceded right away.

tecumseh replies:
well someone did (raise 100% good queens) in the same study and that is why I suggested that the results appeared not normal (no central tendency). experience in using statistic (I see we have some education envy raising it's ugly empty head... what's that about?) does suggest to me that something else was going on than what the folks that put together this little experiement though.... or at least that is my first thoughts when I see a two tail distribution that should be somewhat normally distributed.

[Grant]

With respect to raising any percentage of "good" queens (and what constitutes "good" maybe somewhat subjective), I keep returning something that Steve Tabor said in an old ABJ, quoting Farrar at the U of Wisconsin. Farrar noted that environment is incredibly important when producing high quality queens.

Farrar believed environmental factors like proper nutrition, strong colonies of young bees, raising queens during a good nectar/pollen flow, weather during mating were significant. If the environmental factors were lacking, it didn't make a hill of beans what genetics you brought to the grafting tool.

And further, it was reported at Sacramento that newly mated queens need more time to lay before they are caged and banked.

The way queens are raised will have a large impact on their quality irrespective of their pedigree.

Grant
Jackson, MO

[tecumseh]

grant writes:
Farrar believed environmental factors like proper nutrition, strong colonies of young bees, raising queens during a good nectar/pollen flow, weather during mating were significant.

tecumseh replies:
a number of studies published in the journals suggest this directly and it was the very essence of the problem that drove jay smith to try raising queens using a number of techniques. somewhere here I have a graph (also in one of odfranks old bee magazines) that shows the effect of 'grafting' from a larvae of the proper age vs one just a bit too old.

then grant writes:
And further, it was reported at Sacramento that newly mated queens need more time to lay before they are caged and banked.

tecumseh replies:
I would suspect (don't really know) that this should decrease supersecedure rates which typically occur after a new queen has only laid a short while. especially in mini nucs I personally like the queens to lay a bit longer since this tend to keep the population boosted without intervention and these tiny units then are a bit more self sustaining (and ready for the next queen cell.

[Michael Palmer]

then grant writes:
And further, it was reported at Sacramento that newly mated queens need more time to lay before they are caged and banked.

I think more breeders are going this way. Pat Heitkam is going to 21 days from 14 or 16. I was at 16, but too many queens are just barely laying, or not quite at that point. Since my cell building rotation is 8 days...a new batch of cells ready every 8 days, and mated queens to catch every 8 days, I'm going to 24 days to stay on an 8 day rotation. Rather than 2 groups of mating nucs (140 @) I plan on 3 groups of 180 each.

I always killed any queens that weren't laying on the 16th day. I wish there was a way to tell if they were mated correctly...without extracting the spermatheca. Had a beekeeper helping me catch queens. He took the queens that weren't laying, and introduced them. Most were accepted and became good layers. When you sell queens, most isn't good enough.

Now, if only the mating nucs don't get too strong by waiting until day 24.

[Joel]

I like the concept of buying bees bred by Micro-Breeders as often a small operation focused on a certain discipline can produce a superior product. The problem will be finding the micro-breeders that are doing it right. I'm a bit of a beer oficionato and like to buy from micro-breweries. The difference I've experianced in quality is incredible. I've had beer from micro-breweries that knocks the socks off most commerically available brews and I've had some that just knocks you off period due to skunky taste, weak body or just plain flat taste. Someone doesn't just buy some good stock and raise salable numbers of quality queens. I think like anything that will result in consistent quality any individual will spend a few years and/or attend some focused education which will move them more quickly in the right direction.

I can't afford to risk high numbers of superceded queens (although in some years I've seen that from reputable breeders) or importing inferior stock into our operation. I need a bench mark to judge a micro-breeder by other than the sales flyer telling me how great the stock is.

How do we know who's doing it right other than by reputation?

[Michael Palmer]

How do we know who's doing it right other than by reputation?

Is there a better way...other than buying their stock and trying it out? Maybe raising your own?

[adamf]

Is there a better way...other than buying their stock and trying it out? Maybe raising your own?

Testing with good record-keeping followed by raising queens in your area from the stock that performs the best in the tests, is a great beginning. Just as Mike suggests.

Adam Finkelstein
(not sure which email to use)

[dcross]

Is there a better way...other than buying their stock and trying it out? Maybe raising your own?


Talk to other beekeepers!

[Kieck]

The problem I see with this goes something along these lines:

Let's say (hypothetically) that I'm a "micro-breeder." I raise and sell about 100 queens each year. And those queens are good. Good enough, in fact, that I gain a reputation for selling good queens.

I start getting calls from beekeepers who wish to buy more queens from me. My production of queens goes from 100 per year to 1000 per year. But I'm still turning away beekeepers anxious to buy my queens. I could sell 10,000 per year, if I just had the capacity.

So, after doing some calculating, I determine that I can cut some of the steps, still produce good queens (maybe not good queens, but good queens), and meet the demand.

So I do. Natural human response, I believe. See a way to make more money, take it.

At what point do I go from being a "micro-breeder" to a "breeder" or "queen producer?" Does it matter that I'm producing 10,000 queens, rather than 1,000 queens? Rather than 100 queens?

[BjornBee]

How do we know who's doing it right other than by reputation?

Joel,

Things that I do, that anyone building a business can do....

I open my business to have other beekeepers help do queen evaluations and select breeders. Every year, several people help me, and sometimes I have never met them before. Want to see drone colonies? Lets go look at them. Want to see a cluster of apiaries for breeding efforts, lets go look at them.

Anyone picking up nucs or a queen, is invited into the nuc yard and sometimes a full blown tour develops. People see the nucs before its sealed up, and they see the queen caged from the nuc it came from.

I hold a picnic every year where beekeepers at their convenience can open, inspect, and talk among themselves about my bees and program.

I find those not willing to open their doors, not willing to have people in their yards, and not willing to discuss their breeding criteria, a little questionable.

I think anyone wanting to build a reputable business should be open, up front, and not be secretive. I often wonder what the results would be for a beekeeper to ask to see the drone colonies and out-yards for drones that so many suggest are being used. For many.... there are none!

I also never put all my eggs in the same basket. I order from multiple people. Some are good, some are bad. That's business. I just hope to order from multiple good people... ;)

[tecumseh]

Joel cut to the chase with...

How do we know who's doing it right other than by reputation?

teucmseh replies:
with some small number of queens produced yearly that about the only option available... most folks I know in the bee business when asked how they acquire business tell you... word of mouth.

[dewbeehoney]

I am one of the Ohio State Beekeepers Assn "Queen Project" coordinators.
I live up in the NE corner of the state. I'm about 20 miles from Sharon PA.
I am the coordinator for 9 counties known as the Western Reserve.

Here is a little more info about the project.

There are 3 tiers to the projcet, OSBA Members, 9 Regional Coordinators and 1 State Coordinator (Joe Latshaw).

The 9 coordinators have 2 main duties: 1) teach grafting methods, and 2) gather survivor stock from the region to be used in the program.

Each of the 9 coordinators chose survivors from last winter and raised virgins from them. Joe Latshaw inseminated them with (super sperm) of Carniolan origin. (Super sperm is a mixture of sperm from a number of drones much larger than any queen would ever mate with) The purpose of super sperm is to help with the genetic diversity issue.

The coordinators use this stock to teach the classes, and to raise daughters for evaluation. Class participants go home with ripe queen cells which they raised from the II queens. The virgins get mated at the class participants home apiary. It will be these queens which we hope to evaluate for reintroduction into the breeding program.

Having 9 regions within the state to pool from should give us the diversity we are looking for. It also gives us the ability to evaluate many more queens than 1 (micro breeder) could alone. Having Joe Latshaw as the State Coordinator and handeling the II will be a huge benefit to the project.

The class I give is a 3 day class which follows the "queens calander".

The 1st day is a two parter: 1) class session, 2) creating a cell builder.
Two days later: checking cell builder for queen cells, and Grafting.
Eight to Ten days later: Transfering queen cells to mating nucs.

This class teaches from begining to end, just as you would do in the field.
The participants have actuall reared their own queens, not just learned about it.