Homeland Security to Unveil New Driver's License Rules [Archive]

Michael Bush

01-12-2008, 05:50 PM

BjornBee

01-12-2008, 07:20 PM

This is good humor for a Saturday night...;)

So let me see if I get this. For those who truly believe in the Bible and prophecy...the "mark" is coming sooner or later. So are you looking forward to it, trying to fend off this event, or think God will alter his plan based on whether we can delay the government's decision of a national security ID? Seems like this group would be in favor.

And for those who don't believe the prophecy, do you really care? Seems this group would not see problems in it except for logistical reasons such as one MB explained.

For a country that does not even require photo ID to vote, its a joke in my mind. I actually think a national ID card is not a threat. Of course, being in the military, paying taxes, traveling with passports...makes me think they already have a good file on me. :)

Maybe if more Americans traveled and visited more than Vegas or the nearest beach, they would see that the rest of the world has such ID and uses it for many reasons, whether for voting, driving, security concerns, etc.

Oldbee

01-12-2008, 08:19 PM

Just under the CURRENT rules I have a friend who cannot get a Drivers License because he never had a Birth Certificate because his parents didn't want him kidnapped by the US Government and sent to an Indian boarding school. (which is precisely what happed to the ones that did have one) I also know of people born in the South, delivered by the Vetrinarian because they were Black and the local doctor only worked on White people. The Vet didn't file a birth certificate and neither did the parents. My Grandfather died without every having a birth certificate. What will happen to all these people under stricter guidlines than now exist? The friend I first mentioned has been arrested multiple times for driving without that license that they refuse to give him because he doesn't have the birth certificate, that a tribal Judge ordered the state of South Dakota to issue, which they refuse to issue. If he continues do drive, which he does, eventully, he'll get life in prison under Nebraska's "hatitual criminal" statute, for getting to work the only way he can.

Are there,.. REALLY REALLY,.. SOOOOOOOOOO! many people in this country, [USA] that have soo many "problems" like this that can't be resolved with just,..........simplicity? How do these "people", individuals, families get into "problems" like this? Because they are just basically,.....................irresponsible? We had a "problem" here in Wisconsin where a police officer [Mexican] was deported because some members of his family LIED!! about his citizenship by exchanging his identity with some deceased relative! It was a long, sad, "Boo Whoo" story. Well, you know what--I don't care!

ALL THE PEOPLE living in this country, whether native Americans or recent immigrants and ALL their relatives need to have an official "identity card" with photo. I will gladly submit,.. "my identity" to REAL ID. I don't know what the problem is!

"would irreparably damage the fabric of american life". ACLU. They ALL say that!,.. "damage", fabric of "American life", the "slippery slope" and,.. on and on just to scare people into thinking our "democracy" will come to a bitter end because you have to,..............................identify yourself.

Bizzybee

01-12-2008, 09:01 PM

I hear ya oldbee! Ditto

Interesting Michael. One of my grandmothers didn't have a birth certificate. Not very uncommon at all since most people where I come from back in the day were delivered by midwives. Not such an uncommon practice not so long ago. Simply because there were no doctors or most folks couldn't afford one if they were anywhere to be found.

It took her about 6 months, a lot of forms and witnesses to vouch for her claim as she wasn't sure of the exact hour she was born which was an issue. And they eventually picked one for her. But she did after all the red tape was plowed through, get one.

Barry Digman

01-12-2008, 09:01 PM

Maybe if more Americans traveled and visited more than Vegas or the nearest beach, they would see that the rest of the world has such ID and uses it for many reasons, whether for voting, driving, security concerns, etc.

Why should we care what the rest of the world requires for ID? Americans already carry identification in the form of drivers licences and social security cards. Why do we need a "national" identity card? To protect ourselves from the big bad terrrrrraaaaarrrrriiiiiiisssssstttttsssssssss that GW has been trying to scare us with for the last 6 years? I'm amazed that America is so willing to roll over like lapdogs and give the government anything they want as long as it's in the interest of "national security". I gotta say that in all honesty I'm just as leery of my own government as I am of the islamofascistterroristinsurgents.

Keep in mind that our forefathers rebelled against the heavy-handedness of their OWN government, not some foreign tyrant.

For the folks who like the idea of a national id card, why not simply give the United Nations the authority to issue INTERnational cards? Then the whole of mankind would be one big happy family and we'd all be safe and live happily ever after. You first.

just to scare people into thinking our "democracy" will come to a bitter end because you have to,..............................identify yourself.

But those in favor of a national ID are doing the exact same thing....scaring people into thinking our democracy will come to a bitter end if one DOESN'T identify himself.

randydrivesabus

01-13-2008, 05:31 AM

one of the reasons i heard for this is that the 911 terrorists used fake drivers licenses to board the planes......so how will the new drivers licenses be fake proof?

Bizzybee

01-13-2008, 07:11 AM

As I understand it, they don't have intentions at this point to use any type of electronic counter measures in the cards. But I'm sure there will be some types of means taken to make it more difficult to produce a copy. I've noticed recently a few places starting to use UV lights to identify license here in GA which has a hologram on the front. I know many others do now also.

Although it being billed as a "national" ID , it's not a national ID. It's still just a state drivers license, with each state being required by federal regulations to VERIFY for heavens sake, the applicants identity before the license are issued. As it is now, a REAL ID can be had in some states with the use forged documents.

"Why should we care what the rest of the world requires for ID?"

You're absolutely right! But what does that have to do with this??

Barry I think you're dead wrong to believe that isn't a huge threat out there from a HUGE number of peoples that HATE Americans to the point of our extinction from the planet. There isn't any guess work involved here, no spy's needed to figure it out. Just listen to them! How exactly is GW making all these people say what they are saying? Are they really just CIA agents with a towel rapped around there head?

Aside from the fact that the country of Mexico is moving most of it's population to the US to take our jobs and TAXES back to their homes in Mexico. There will come a time that all those jobs GW says none of us what, will be the jobs we or our children wish they had!

" For the folks who like the idea of a national id card, why not simply give the United Nations the authority to issue INTERnational cards?"

Come on, it's a state issued drivers license that requires you to prove you're who YOU claim to be. What do you have to hide? Only people I can think of that need to hide from that are identity thieves, felons, illegals or terrorists.

Brent Bean

01-13-2008, 08:41 AM

MB if your friends or relatives are having a hard time getting a drivers license just send them over to Michigan, all you need is a few bucks and make sure your hair is combed for the picture. During summer if you go to the SOSO you might think you were south of the boarder.

BjornBee: for those of us that do believe bible prophecy, there would be no point in trying to bring it on or stop it, what would be the point. It would be like stopping the sun from rising in the morning. According to us bible thumpers the only people that need to be concerned about it is the ones that reject the bible, could it be that’s why they spend so much time mocking it.

Bizzybee

01-13-2008, 08:55 AM

OUCH!!!

It would be a bit of a stretch to think this is leading to a tattooed number on the forehead.

But I for one would like to see a few more threads move ahead without becoming a religious battle. I don't see the point or the gain. Only losses.

Ravenseye

01-13-2008, 09:18 AM

A drivers license is used to prove that you're licensed to drive. An officer of the law should have the right to request that you show your license if you're being questioned about something that happened while you were driving. If a drivers license is used for ID, then the person requesting it has chosen to use it. It's not mandated. Nor is it required that you show it. Sure, you may not be able to open your checking account, but they can't hold anything more against you. Unless the government has suddenly decided to take a vested interest in monitoring my driving habits, then the only reason to mandate a singular form of license is to turn the drivers license into a national ID. If someone proposed a national ID, it would likely fail. So, this is an attempt to do the same thing. I don't like it.

tycobb48

01-13-2008, 10:14 AM

Agreed - we all have some sort of ID already - What is the problem with standardization across the board? That closes loopholes and should make it more difficult to 'cheat' the system. Also, as time goes by, the problems stated above, where Americans that don't have birth certificates, etc... due to circumstances beyond their control will disappear. That is mostly a generational circumstance, and not to be cold, but as that generation fades off into the sunset, the these problems disappear. At that point, the new system should only be a problem for people with things to hide - not only illegals, but the person who gets pulled over with an outstanding warrant two states over.

Mike Gillmore

01-13-2008, 10:30 AM

OUCH!!!

It would be a bit of a stretch to think this is leading to a tattooed number on the forehead.

Not at all my friend. Not necessarily a tattoo, but a mark and a number... which could be invisible to the naked eye.

Do some research on "bar codes" and "implants" and you may be just a bit surprised at what you find. Coincidence.?? .. I personally don't think so.

But you're right.. this is not the place for that discussion. We'll pick it up on another thread. ;)

Bizzybee

01-13-2008, 11:21 AM

LOL I'm sure there will be plenty Bud!!

But, I don't care for tattoos, never have. I think they are kinda ridiculous myself, but to each their own. As for our government to ever conceive the notion that they might like to put one on me in any shape or fashion they are likely to have a war on their hands. Cuz I don't think I would be alone on that one to say the least. Ya think?

To get back to the point though. If we are to ignore any kind of identification means because someone has something to hide. Or they somehow feel their privacy is being invaded. Which I would have to agree it is to some degree. Then by what means are we to identify who is NOT supposed to be here doing whatever it is they're doing?

How about instead of just pure opposition without regard for our safety and security as well as OUR right to work and be prosperous in our own country. What are the alternatives. I hear all kinds of reasons why not and not a single idea to confront the problems that's causing this to happen.

And please don't send all of into complete boredom with who should have done what, when. Or jump on the party ticket soapbox.

taipantoo

01-13-2008, 11:38 AM

"would irreparably damage the fabric of american life". ACLU. They ALL say that!,.. "damage", fabric of "American life", the "slippery slope" and,.. on and on just to scare people into thinking our "democracy" will come to a bitter end because you have to,..............................identify yourself.

With all due respect, we live in a Republic.
We may have a Democratic form of government, but we do not live in a Democracy.

Michael Bush

01-13-2008, 12:34 PM

>How do these "people", individuals, families get into "problems" like this? Because they are just basically,.....................irresponsible?

You are right. Both my friends and my grandfather should have done the responsible thing the day they were born, and filled out the correct paperwork. They should definitely be held accountable for that now by being treated as a non-person.

sqkcrk

01-13-2008, 12:34 PM

[QUOTE=tycobb48;284684]Agreed - we all have some sort of ID already - QUOTE]

Apparently you don't watch the TV show "COPS" very often. I'm often amused at the number of people who don't carry any ID papers.

I also have a 38 year old friend who often doesn't carry ID. He tried to buy cigarettes a while ago and since he didn't have ID w/ him they wouldn't sell them to him. When our 68 year old friend bought them he wasn't carded. The first guy was refused because he didn't have ID, the second guy wasn't asked for it. Double standard I believe.

Barry

01-13-2008, 01:20 PM

Barry I think you're dead wrong to believe that isn't a huge threat out there from a HUGE number of peoples that HATE Americans to the point of our extinction from the planet. There isn't any guess work involved here, no spy's needed to figure it out. Just listen to them! How exactly is GW making all these people say what they are saying? Are they really just CIA agents with a towel rapped around there head?

I know this is directed at the other good Barry, but the way I view it, both sides make a good point. There is the tendency to over react and try to control the potential beast by "protecting" the potential victims. And in so doing, we give up a little more of our freedom. Yes, there is a real threat and some degree of action needs to be taken in response to it. Question is, does the potential threat justify the new License Rule? For me it doesn't.

- Barry

Bizzybee

01-13-2008, 02:05 PM

Hey!!! NO FAIR changing people/names on me here!! Where's your ID?? :confused::)

What's wrong with asking you to produce legal documentation (you should already have) to issue you a picture ID? A readily convenient means of identifying yourself so that you don't have the need to carry all the "papers" you already have. I hear you guys saying you don't like it, but no one says why?

I don't think that whether someone is sold cigarettes or not is much of an issue personally. I would imagine the same thing happens with alcohol, which is a bigger issue. But when it comes to hiring someone who is here illegally taking the money out of the pocket of a citizen it does. But then those employers are ignoring the laws for profit in the first place and should be held accountable for their actions! No I don't buy the garbage they don't know who is legal and who isn't. They are also part of the reason this is being done as well.

Other VERY good reasons are voting, assistance programs, free health care........... Geeze, we can't control or afford to pay the crack heads that are pumping out babies as fast as they can so they get a raise on their "welfare" checks. Taking a means of survival for the few that honestly deserve some our support. Then open the doors to another 20 million or so?????

Everyone knows our government operates like a well oiled machine..................drowned in a sea of molasses! We'll never get our government to operate efficiently enough to operate anything well. If this one small item could stem the tide of these worries, then why not make it work?

Barry

01-13-2008, 02:11 PM

Everyone knows our government operates like a well oiled machine..................drowned in a sea of molasses! We'll never get our government to operate efficiently enough to operate anything well. If this one small item could stem the tide of these worries, then why not make it work?

You just gave my answer! :D

Bizzybee

01-13-2008, 04:20 PM

:D Point taken!!

dug_6238

01-13-2008, 07:36 PM

C'mon guys and gals...this sounds so blown out of proportion.

I carry a government issued CAC (Common Access Card) as well as a SMART card - both are used for systems login as well as presentation of digital certificates and signing or encryption, and the CAC serves as a government photo-ID. Neither impacts my freedom. They both fit nicely in my wallet, and typically hide well behind some other cards. If I lose them, the certs can't be pulled off them in unencrypted form, and they can't be used without "Something I know."

Really, seriously, they don't impact my freedom in any way.

Tell me what I'm missing. How does this make me any less free than you?

Barry Digman

01-13-2008, 08:12 PM

Really, seriously, they don't impact my freedom in any way.
Tell me what I'm missing. How does this make me any less free than you?

Does anyone remember a fellow named J. Edgar Hoover? How can anyone believe that a person or persons in the federal will not abuse every possible bit of private information they can get their hands on in order to promote their careers or their sense of mission? How can you possibly know that your private information is secure when we're bombarded daily with examples to the contrary?

The very fact that you will be required to carry national identification, which heretofore we have NOT been required to carry, should answer your last question. The fact is the government doesn't need to know who you are or what you're doing in order to protect the country from outsiders.

Michael Bush

01-13-2008, 09:05 PM

>What's wrong with asking you to produce legal documentation (you should already have) to issue you a picture ID?

Except he DOESN"T have it and can't get it. And you can't GET that legal documentation unless you HAVE that legal documentation. You can't GET a picture ID until you HAVE a birth certificate. And the state refused to give him either. What do you suggest he produce? There are plenty of people who know him and know his parents, but affidavits from them have not been considered adequate proof by the powers that be.

wbell

01-13-2008, 09:33 PM

Has it not been considered that a national ID can possibly be used to identify sub groups of citizens , to single them out for special attention. For example, data could be used to select for gun owners. Once this information is compiled, it is not a far stretch to think of ways the government could use the information. Do we really want to see the time when authorities can demand to see our "papers"? Guten nacht mein damen und herren.

wbell

01-13-2008, 09:39 PM

nsmith1957

01-13-2008, 10:37 PM

With all due respect, we live in a Republic.
We may have a Democratic form of government, but we do not live in a Democracy.Close, but not quite. We slide out of a Republic before most of us where ever born.

What we "live" in today is somewhere between a Democracy and a form of government ran by the "elite". A form of government that is sliding more and more towards, 'Guilty until proven innocent'. Laws that benefit government not the people that government is suppose to serve. Government that has unlimited powers. Government that owns nothing, yet controls and taxes everything. Government that protects the "interests" of the "elite". Government that uses the assets of We The People to maximize business profits of the "elite". Government that tells We The People it will do one thing and then does the exact opposite. Government that knows what is in the best interest of We The People and makes decisions for us.

What our forefathers lived in was a Constitutional Republic. A rule of Law. Law that was unchanging. Law that limited what government was allowed to do. Law that placed no limit on the individual as long as it didn't harm another individual. A government that had no "right/rights" to or about anything. Only limited powers that We The People gave it in the form of a Constitution. Law that assumed the individual was 'Innocent until proven quilty'.

Today, the Law is evolving. Law is "interpreted" to mean whatever government needs it to mean at the moment. Law that works in the favor of government and the "elite". As what we have today is less free than what our forefathers had, also our children and our grand-children shall be less free than we are.

Considering all of this, where will all of this lead too? Should be obvious. Continued erosion of freedoms, a little here, a little there, till one day all freedoms will be gone.

All in the name of "Security". A great man once warned us of this. It is obvious nobody is paying attention to him.

nsmith1957

01-13-2008, 10:44 PM

Do we really want to see the time when authorities can demand to see our "papers"? At the end of freedom, as we know it, they want even need your papers. They just scan the implant under your skin and it will tell them all they want to know.

Barry Digman

01-14-2008, 12:56 AM

Here's a snippet from a piece that you can read by following the link.
It gives you some idea about why people who have paid attention to the fascists and dictators and tyrants of the past get nervous over talk of "papers, please". People who do not have a sense of alarm when they're told by their government that they're going to have to carry papers have not done their homework.

''Papers, please': I smell the long-forgotten rot of fascism'
by Doris Colmes SmirkingChimp.com
Entered into the database on Thursday, June 02nd, 2005 @ 17:46:05 MST

Those were the magic words of the time: "Papiere, Bitte." (Translation: "Papers, Please.") Hearing those words, even now, causes dull echoes of sounds akin to bodies hitting dirt, or bullets penetrating flesh to thud into my mind. Because, if those papers weren't correctly in order, or, if you were a Jew sneakily present in any place (including the grocery store) which displayed the usual "NO JEWS OR DOGS ALLOWED" sign, you were dead meat--literally. And, yes, of course I'm talking about my childhood as a little Jewish kid in Nazi Germany.

No one ever forgets stench. Whether it is a long-forgotten encounter with a ripe skunk, or a ripe egg, or a ripe decomposing body, once one of those odors has been brain-documented, then even the slightest tinge of such an aroma pops back up immediately, along with the circumstances under which it first offended the nostrils.

And, that's what's happening now. I smell the long-forgotten skunk, the long-forgotten rot of fascism. What is happening all around can no longer be denied. What I ran away from so desperately in 1938 is coming back full circle. Only the jack-boots have not yet arrived. America quite literally saved my life. The love and gratitude deep in my heart for this country will never go away. But I'm scared now. Haunted by deep fear for the generations to come, who may wind up as I did -- looking over their shoulders, scurrying for cover, mute with terror. And it hurts.

http://www.lookingglassnews.org/printerfriendly.php?storyid=674

tecumseh

01-14-2008, 07:30 AM

mr digman writes:
''Papers, please': I smell the long-forgotten rot of fascism'
by Doris Colmes SmirkingChimp.com

tecumseh warns:
be careful about swallowing those blue pills...

most excellent site... I would not recommend the site for my more conservative friends, or anyone that might have already taken the red pill.

Barry Digman

01-14-2008, 08:36 AM

mr digman writes:
''Papers, please': I smell the long-forgotten rot of fascism'
by Doris Colmes SmirkingChimp.com
tecumseh warns:
be careful about swallowing those blue pills...
most excellent site... I would not recommend the site for my more conservative friends, or anyone that might have already taken the red pill.

What color would a Libertarian state be?:)

berkshire bee

01-14-2008, 09:04 AM

from the news article

"—The cards will have three layers of security measures but will not contain microchips as some had expected. States will be able to choose from a menu which security measures they will put in their cards."

At least they tell us they won't have microchips. Maybe not in the first round.
I'd rather be free and take my chances with "terrorists"

nsmith1957

01-14-2008, 09:26 AM

tecumseh warns:
be careful about swallowing those blue pills...

most excellent site... I would not recommend the site for my more conservative friends, or anyone that might have already taken the red pill.Refusing to see the rabbit hole, does not mean you want break your ankle when you step into it.

dragonfly

01-14-2008, 10:02 AM

What color would a Libertarian state be?:)

yellow-green

Brent Bean

01-14-2008, 10:59 AM

Taipantoo:

Thinking back several decades to my high school government, we started out living in a Democratic-Republic form of government. Today we have slid to more of a Socialism form of government. And a National ID card that would prevent you form moving freely from one place to another using all the normal forms of transportation like flying or Amtrak without having one is a step closer to being completely Socialist. No mater how good the reason for going to it, and that’s the rub.

Nsmith1957: well said!

golddust-twins

01-14-2008, 12:27 PM

> on and on just to scare people into thinking ....

That's "their" point oldbee. "Scare" & Fear will help "them" keep the masses in check.

Corinne

MapMan

01-14-2008, 12:51 PM

The sky is falling... The sky is falling...:eek:

Get over it!

Anyone who has undertaken a thorough background check for security clearances, bonding, etc. will understand that this is not that big of a deal. I do believe that if you are born in the U.S., you are required to get a S.S. number - you are in the system already. And, you must register for Selective Service at age 18. And, show several forms of ID before you can be hired (theoretically!).

If you don't feel the freedoms which we enjoy in this country warrants a national ID system, you can always go elsewhere. The door's open.;) That's right - leave! Not stopping you!

Unless you are trying to hide from the Tax Man, INS, Correctional Institution, etc...

MM

Barry Digman

01-14-2008, 01:59 PM

The 1968 Democratic National Convention called. They wanted to know if we wanted billy clubs and tear gas to go along with our "America - Love It or Leave It" bumper stickers.

Kieck

01-14-2008, 03:26 PM

The friend I first mentioned has been arrested multiple times for driving without that license that they refuse to give him because he doesn't have the birth certificate, that a tribal Judge ordered the state of South Dakota to issue, which they refuse to issue. If he continues do drive, which he does, eventully, he'll get life in prison under Nebraska's "hatitual criminal" statute, for getting to work the only way he can. -Michael Bush

I believe part of the problem, here, is that a tribal judge is making the order. Unfortunately, tribal politics and state politics often seem to be at odds with one another.

Here in South Dakota, a birth certificate is not required to obtain a driver's license. As I read the Nebraska rules, only one form of ID is required to get a Nebraska driver's license. That form of ID must have both the name and date of birth on it, but does not have to be a birth certificate.

While I'm not sure what is gained by having this "REAL ID," I'm not sure, either, what exactly is lost to this form of ID that is not lost to other forms. This "REAL ID" is a set of federal standards for states to follow while issuing identification cards. In other words, your next driver's license will be issued by the state where you live but will have similar features to drivers' licenses in other states. If you choose not to get a driver's license or a government-issued identification card, then nothing changes for you. For the rest who choose to get a state-issued ID, I doubt most will notice much difference. States will voluntarily exchange information with other states (I believe most do now -- for instance, if I were to be pulled over in Minnesota for a traffic violation, I believe South Dakota would provide Minnesota with any information they have on my driving record). States that do not wish to participate will not receive federal funding.

Ravenseye

01-14-2008, 03:31 PM

I think that if someone is going to be able to demand "papers", then everyone should be able to do it. Hey, if it's just a matter of "if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't be worried" then let's just open things right up. Why should I show my ID with private and personal information on it to someone that I don't even know. Due diligence.....

Brent Bean

01-14-2008, 03:43 PM

Kieck

01-14-2008, 03:56 PM

I don't believe this is a "national ID card," just a set of standards for states to use when issuing state ID cards. This would standardize the information on the cards across states, and make sure the security features are relatively standard.

taipantoo

01-14-2008, 04:27 PM

Close, but not quite. We slide out of a Republic before most of us where ever born.

What we "live" in today is somewhere between a Democracy and a form of government ran by the "elite". A form of government that is sliding more and more towards, 'Guilty until proven innocent'. Laws that benefit government not the people that government is suppose to serve. Government that has unlimited powers. Government that owns nothing, yet controls and taxes everything. Government that protects the "interests" of the "elite". Government that uses the assets of We The People to maximize business profits of the "elite". Government that tells We The People it will do one thing and then does the exact opposite. Government that knows what is in the best interest of We The People and makes decisions for us.

What our forefathers lived in was a Constitutional Republic. A rule of Law. Law that was unchanging. Law that limited what government was allowed to do. Law that placed no limit on the individual as long as it didn't harm another individual. A government that had no "right/rights" to or about anything. Only limited powers that We The People gave it in the form of a Constitution. Law that assumed the individual was 'Innocent until proven quilty'.

Today, the Law is evolving. Law is "interpreted" to mean whatever government needs it to mean at the moment. Law that works in the favor of government and the "elite". As what we have today is less free than what our forefathers had, also our children and our grand-children shall be less free than we are.

Considering all of this, where will all of this lead too? Should be obvious. Continued erosion of freedoms, a little here, a little there, till one day all freedoms will be gone.

All in the name of "Security". A great man once warned us of this. It is obvious nobody is paying attention to him.

Your defining fascism.

Ravenseye

01-14-2008, 07:07 PM

Your defining fascism.

Yup.

And....the fed's don't have to be mandating to the states how information should be collected, displayed or used. The fact that they are doing so indicates that their interest is in the data, not in the database format. Why, for example, does the act mandate which databases the states link together? States should decide on their own since they're spending your tax money to do it. If the government is only concerned about the data structure, why does the act make it possible to deny access to federal building to someone who doesn't possess a 'real' ID? Certainly, they're not going to penalize a person because they don't like the chosen data format of the residents state, are they? Rather, I think it's because they want the states to collect data, in a certain way, from certain sources, so that they can access it when they want to. That means, that you'll have to have your "papers", even if someone isn't stopping you in the street and checking them.

The end result is the same. Your right to move freely and to access certain services have been purposefully diminished through a convenient means. Had the government simply announced that all citizens would need a standard ID, there would have been outrage. So instead, they bullied the states into leveraging your license to drive a vehicle into a federal ID.

I'm simply stunned by the number of people who think that there is a fundamental rule that allows people to ask for ID. A more recent example is this guy who certainly pushed the limits when he was arrested because he didn't turn over his drivers license...even though he wasn't driving and had freely given his name. He hadn't even broken a law...just a store policy.

http://www.switched.com/2007/09/04/circuit-city-shopper-cuffed-for-refusing-to-show-receipt/

This is just one more step that erodes the foundation of freedom. It's easier to take your freedoms from you than to protect them for you. We're letting our own government off the hook by accepting, without ample and due consideration, their lame excuses for passing yet another strident restriction cloaked in secrecy and wrapped tightly with stars and stripes. The next thing you know, they'll be able to discover what books we take out of the library, read our e-mail and monitor our web browsing.

Oh...wait....we let them do that already......

dug_6238

01-14-2008, 07:16 PM

MapMan:
I don’t think we need an national ID card, that is my freedom to do so and according to my constitutional rights I should be have to go some where else to think that way. I have paid my dues, to have a vote and an opinion, isn’t that what we fought for in Vietnam and Korea and the Cold War. If you can’t see that perhaps you are in the wrong country or perhaps a man out of time. You might have felt more comfortable in 1930's Germany?

Pennsylvania is a strange state. In order to vote, I have to be registered. I even get a voters card. If I move, I need to re-register, give them my new address, go to a different voting poll, etc. Even stranger, if I want to drive, I have to get a state drivers license, which puts all of my driver info linked in the state computer system available to state troopers if they ever pull me over for a moving violation. Not an infringement of rights, just a part of the system.

NOTE: Yes - the first sentence in the preceding paragraph was a sarcastic attempt at dry humor.:rolleyes:

If you don't want to have a voters card, then fine, don't register, you just won't be able to vote. It's a vital part of the system. It also helps to keep me from making multiple or illegal votes. A fair safety precaution if you ask me. If you don't want to drive, then don't apply for a drivers license. I'd rather keep the current safegaurds in place. Children can't drive until they're old enough to get a license. Those who have lost their license for whatever reason can't drive - again, a sensible precaution in my eyes. If you have reasons to keep your name out of the state's system, then that's your perrogative.

I have to say though that I agree with MapMan. I can't tell you what is required for some folks jobs, but if you think about it there really are a lot of jobs out there where background checks (and even sometimes a LOT more) really is fair and warranted.

My GOSH. What would some of you have to do if you had a job where you'd have to pass drug tests? Periodic background checks? Or a poly? A card like this really is such a small thing, it's just a revamped version of your state drivers license or state photo ID, standardized across the nation for consistency and with a little bit of a technology refresh...the claims about this being a little too much like 1930's Germany are just too far over the top. Some of you might really be served well by clicking the "Preview Post" button before the "Submit Reply" and actually reading your responses.

cow pollinater

01-14-2008, 10:22 PM

My problem is that this is being sold to us as a security issue. There are extremists among us who are here legally and will have papers just like the rest of us.
I see real similarities to gun control here.(and no, I don't want to argue about gun control.) The push is to gain compliance from law abiding citizens in the hopes that criminals will also comply. Me having my I.D. in order won't do anything at all to keep someone who is here illegally from blowing themselves up in a shopping mall and taking out a bunch of people who also have their paperwork in order or from shooting a bunch of people.
How about if we just scrap the pollitical correctness and start looking for terrorists and gangbangers and let the rest of us law-abidding citizens go on our way?

nsmith1957

01-15-2008, 08:08 AM

If you don't want to have a voters card, then fine, don't register, you just won't be able to vote. It's a vital part of the system. It also helps to keep me from making multiple or illegal votes. A fair safety precaution if you ask me. If you don't want to drive, then don't apply for a drivers license. I'd rather keep the current safegaurds in place. Children can't drive until they're old enough to get a license. Those who have lost their license for whatever reason can't drive - again, a sensible precaution in my eyes. If you have reasons to keep your name out of the state's system, then that's your perrogative.The problem with the above logic, is both of these are State or Local issues and not Federal. Voter Fraud should be handled at the local level and drivers license issues handled at the State level. As others have said, the Fed's want the data for use now and in the future. Exactly how they will use the information, on Americans, would be speculation at the moment.

My GOSH. What would some of you have to do if you had a job where you'd have to pass drug tests? Periodic background checks? Or a poly? Doesn't all of this fall under 'Guilty until proven innocent'?

A card like this really is such a small thing, it's just a revamped version of your state drivers license or state photo ID, standardized across the nation for consistency and with a little bit of a technology refresh...the claims about this being a little too much like 1930's Germany are just too far over the top. Some of you might really be served well by clicking the "Preview Post" button before the "Submit Reply" and actually reading your responses.Sarah Brady made a statement once that goes something like this, "If we can get the nose of the camel in the tent, then we can get the rest of it in later." All of these kind of laws are taking us in a direction that leads to the lose of freedoms.

Kieck

01-15-2008, 09:00 AM

The problem with the above logic, is both of these are State or Local issues and not Federal. Voter Fraud should be handled at the local level and drivers license issues handled at the State level. -nsmith1957

Doesn't all of this fall under 'Guilty until proven innocent'? -nsmith1957

Do you see any relationship between your two statements?

The "REAL ID" (whether you agree with it or not) is an attempt to make information on state-issued identification cards uniform, and make security features on those cards uniform. Not to change control of the issues mentioned above to federal jurisdiction.

Have you ever looked at the state-issued identification cards from various states? Some seem pretty difficult to counterfeit, in my opinion, with holograms and "watermarks" and various security features in them, and others appear "counterfeit" even if they've been issued by a state. If you're a security agent for, say, an airline, and you need to make some determinations about identification, what do you do? Let everyone get on the 'plane, because they're "innocent until proven guilty?" Let no one on the 'plane, because one of 'em "might do something bad?" Let the ones that have ID cards with security features in those cards onto the 'plane, but people from states that issue cards with fewer (or no, or different) security features cannot board the 'plane? Keep in mind that 1) people in states without some security features in the ID cards cannot get cards with more security features in them unless they move, 2) airlines are private businesses, and, as private businesses, can refuse service to anyone they choose, and 3) the "REAL ID" is not a mandate that everyone obtain a state-issued identification card.

By the way, unless you missed it, you're assuming that the government (as an entity) is guilty of collecting data and using it for what you deem "inappropriate" uses, without "proving the government guilty." You haven't even provided any evidence of what the government is collecting. My name? Fine. My social security number? The federal government issued that number, they better have record of it. My birthdate? Nothing, really, to hide from the government, in my opinion.

How about if we just scrap the pollitical correctness and start looking for terrorists and gangbangers and let the rest of us law-abidding citizens go on our way? -cow pollinator

Sounds good! Now how do we determine who's "law-abiding" and who's a "terrorist?"

Hobie

01-15-2008, 09:23 AM

What I want to know is, what's wrong with my US passport?

What if I don't drive?

And when will I have to start carrying my "papers" with me on bike rides, kayak trips, etc.??? The government needs to start putting their efforts toward something that matters.

Kieck

01-15-2008, 09:38 AM

What I want to know is, what's wrong with my US passport? -Hobie

As I read the "REAL ID" act, nothing. Your US passport is still a valid form of identification, even for federal purposes.

What if I don't drive? -Hobie

Then you certainly wouldn't need a driver's license. If you needed an additional form of identification, you could get a state-issued identification card. If your state follows the "REAL ID" standards, your card could also be used for federal identification purposes (i.e., entering a federal building, federal security at airports, etc.). Otherwise, you would need to provide other forms of ID or forego whatever you needed that federally-accepted identification to do.

And when will I have to start carrying my "papers" with me on bike rides, kayak trips, etc.??? -Hobie

Not as a part of this legislation. This is just a standard for state-issued identifications. Not a mandate that everyone have a state-issued ID.

The government needs to start putting their efforts toward something that matters. -Hobie

As I understand it, very little effort went into this act. I think it's worth noting, though, that some of these changes went into effect to try to avoid more acts like hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings. The federal government now is responsible for security at airports, rather than the airlines. So, to make their system more effective, the government is changing the requirements to use that system.

Brent Bean

01-15-2008, 10:46 AM

Dug 6238

Perhaps you should read who I was responding to, about the crack of 1930's Germany. I get riled up when I hear love it or leave it or if you don’t agree get the heck out garbage.
Perhaps you should study a little more history. Then you might not blindly jump on the band wagon because the government tells you it’s a good idea to do something and we really won’t use it for anything else but for your own protection.
Our government has a proven track record of lying, so why should I believe that they won’t use it to infringe on my right to privacy.
What would I do if I had a job that requires a periodic drug test or background check? Well go to work and do my job like I do every day. But the reasons for it are different, would you want someone that operates a nuclear plant to be drunk or stone? But I have a choice I could refuse and find a job somewhere else.
The biggest reason I have a reservations about national ID, a.k.a. Real ID. Is how the government could miss use it and my right’s to privacy.
I see you leave your personal profile very thin on information, would you use this form if you were required to give a lot of personal information? The answer is probably no, now if it were required by law how would you react?

Barry Digman

01-15-2008, 11:09 AM

So, to make their system more effective, the government is changing the requirements to use that system.

I think this gets to the heart of the matter. Kieck uses the term "their", whereas I would use the term "ours" or "my". It doesn't seem like much, but it illustrates the huge difference between people who view the government as "them", and those of us who insist that the federal government should still be "ours".

Once you reach a philosophical point where you're acknowleging that the government is no longer responsible to you, it's easy to dismiss violations of constitutional principles as irrelevant. And as the Constitution becomes more and more irrelelvant, the country itself becomes more and more irrelevant as far as a nation of unique freedom in the world. That's where these seemingly inconsequential little erosions of our way of life will take their toll.

Again, we've reached a fat and sassy plateau in the US wherein nothing really matters as long as we can get our Big Macs and our plasma TVs. No one seems to really understand the deeper implications, nor do they really care. (Ya want fries wid dat, Mister...?)

Kieck

01-15-2008, 12:12 PM

The biggest reason I have a reservations about national ID, a.k.a. Real ID. Is how the government could miss use it and my right’s to privacy. -Brent Bean

According to the rider that established "REAL ID," any state ID card must contain the following items to be valid for identification for federal purposes:
1) full legal name.
2) signature.
3) date of birth.
4) sex.
5) driver's license or identification card number.
6) a photograph of the holder's face.
7) the address of the holder's principal residence.

Considering that much of that (if not all) is already public information, how do you foresee the government misusing that information and violating your rights?

I think this gets to the heart of the matter. Kieck uses the term "their", whereas I would use the term "ours" or "my". It doesn't seem like much, but it illustrates the huge difference between people who view the government as "them", and those of us who insist that the federal government should still be "ours". -Barry Digman

Actually, by "their" I meant the "Transportation Security Administration," and not the "federal government."

And, the way I see it, you missed pointing out a big difference between "insisting that the federal government should still be ours," and "insisting that the federal government is still ours." So far as I can see, control of the government is less in the hands of individual citizens and more in the hands of big corporations. Whether or not it "should" be that way is a different matter.

. . . it's easy to dismiss violations of constitutional principles as irrelevant. -Barry Digman

While I agree with the principle of your statement, please point out where the violation of a constitutional principle occurs with "REAL ID."

nsmith1957

01-15-2008, 12:38 PM

..........While I agree with the principle of your statement, please point out where the violation of a constitutional principle occurs with "REAL ID."It is not in the Constitution and that is the point of this concern and many others. The Constitution is the agreement between We The People and the government that was formed. In this agreement We The People granted this government certain powers and that was all. If a power is not found in the Constitution then it is a power that We The People either withheld for ourselves or granted to our State or Local governments.

If any level of government exercises powers that was not given to it by We The People, then it is an unconstitutional usurpation of power. No where, in any Constitution Federal or State, do We The People give our government the power to collect and catalog information about us.

If government wanted to solve the terrorist problem, it should look at what it does to the people overseas. They do not have any Constitutional restraints in dealing with people outside of this country. For example; What is happening to the funds generated by the sale of Irag's oil? What is it used for and where does it go?

Brent Bean

01-15-2008, 02:02 PM

Kiek:

Sounds like information used on my current driver’s license, so why do we need a federal one? Or is it just another example of the Federal Government eroding away States Rights? Is it going to be for my right to drive? Should we do away with the State license? And give all control over to the Federal level. The Federal Government is already holding States that aren’t onboard with the program by denying residences of that states the ability to board a commercial aircraft even for a domestic flight.
My apprehension is not what it is now but what it could become in the future, once the door is open where dose it end?

Kieck

01-15-2008, 02:51 PM

It is not in the Constitution and that is the point of this concern and many others. -nsmith1957

Interstate highways aren't in the Constitution, but are federal. Do you feel that the interstate highway system is a violation of the Constitution, as well?

No where, in any Constitution Federal or State, do We The People give our government the power to collect and catalog information about us. -nsmith1957

While it may not be in the U. S. Constitution (I'll confess that I don't know all the details of the Constitution by heart), I have no idea what may or may not be in the various state constitutions.

No matter, though. The "REAL ID" does not "collect and catalog" information in a federal system. It establishes a standard to state identification cards, and states do not have to conform to those standards if they choose.

Go read up on what "REAL ID" mandates, and what "information" will be used on the cards.

Sounds like information used on my current driver’s license, so why do we need a federal one? -Brent Bean

No. It's not a "federal driver's license." It's a set of standards for state drivers' licenses, so, ideally, each state will have the same information and same security features in their licenses. The states will continue to issue the licenses, not the federal government. (Please see my response to you in post #57 above.)

The Federal Government is already holding States that aren’t onboard with the program by denying residences of that states the ability to board a commercial aircraft even for a domestic flight. -Brent Bean

No, that's not right. The federal government will deny federal funding to states that do not comply with the "REAL ID" mandates.

You can get on a commercial aircraft without a driver's license that conforms to "REAL ID" standards, but you'll likely have to provide some other form of identification that the TSA deems "acceptable."

Just a test: pull out the driver's license you have right now (if you have one). Look for these items:

1) Full name.

2) Your signature.

3) Date of birth.

4) Sex.

5) A driver's license number.

6) A photograph of your face.

7) Your primary address of residence.

8) Some sort of security feature (a hologram, or a watermark, or a security thread, or something of that nature).

Those are the item required by the "REAL ID" act on your state's driver's license. Are they already there?

Joel

01-15-2008, 03:09 PM

"For a country that does not even require photo ID to vote, its a joke in my mind. I actually think a national ID card is not a threat. Of course, being in the military, paying taxes, traveling with passports...makes me think they already have a good file on me."

I agree with this sentiment. The government already is so far into my business every day, one more standard for an ID card won't effect much of what they know about me. If they want me to list my guns, political affiliations, subversive beesource type groups I belong to and such then I'll be concerned.

Is it true PA is requiring microchipping of hives and is it GPS, Now that I'm concerned about!

Hobie

01-15-2008, 03:20 PM

Considering that much of that (if not all) is already public information, how do you foresee the government misusing that information and violating your rights?

My point: Yes, they already have that information. Why do we have to waste taxpayer dollars so they can have that same information in another format?

As for PA... I have heard nothing about microchipping hives. The inspector does take a GPS reading when he comes, but inspector visits are not mandatory (at least not for my quantity of hives).

sqkcrk

01-15-2008, 03:26 PM

As I understand it, very little effort went into this act. I think it's worth noting, though, that some of these changes went into effect to try to avoid more acts like hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings. The federal government now is responsible for security at airports, rather than the airlines. So, to make their system more effective, the government is changing the requirements to use that system.

Right, so let's stop using airlines. The hassle is too much anyway, isn't it? Then again we could just reject the need for the so called hightened security and relax. We might loose a few airplanes every now and then but we'd be able to get around easier.

What have we really gained or lost by the reactions to terrorism?

Kieck

01-15-2008, 03:33 PM

Yes, they already have that information. Why do we have to waste taxpayer dollars so they can have that same information in another format? -Hobie

It's not "another format." It's your driver's license. When you go to renew your license, the replacement will likely look at least slightly different from the one you have now. But the information will be about the same. (Mine actually contains more personal information than will be required by "REAL ID.") And the issuing agency will be the same.

"REAL ID" is not another ID card, not a different ID card, just a set of standards so all states' cards will contain some minimum information and security features.

nsmith1957

01-15-2008, 04:01 PM

Interstate highways aren't in the Constitution, but are federal. Do you feel that the interstate highway system is a violation of the Constitution, as well?You might should take a look at the Constitution. Federal roads of the day where called "post" roads, as in insuring the "Post" Office could get the mail through. It is one of the powers granted to the Federal Government and one of the uses of tax revenue. It would be no stretch of the imagination to say interstate highways insure that the mail can get through. Thus, it is a power granted to the Fed's.

Hobie

01-15-2008, 04:06 PM

I dunno. Guess I'm not a fan of homogenization. I liked it when all the states' car license plates were different colors. And if the added "security" of the card is comparable to the added "security" we have gotten in the airports... well...

nsmith1957

01-15-2008, 04:59 PM

....By the way, unless you missed it, you're assuming that the government (as an entity) is guilty of collecting data and using it for what you deem "inappropriate" uses, without "proving the government guilty." You haven't even provided any evidence of what the government is collecting. My name? Fine. My social security number? The federal government issued that number, they better have record of it. My birthdate? Nothing, really, to hide from the government, in my opinion.Hmmmm.....I am not assuming anything about government. If you take a close look at history, you will see that governments have ALWAYS, eventually, abused the power and information that it was given. You say all they want is information that they all ready have. I have to disagree, lets take a look at some of the text of the "Real ID Act", taken from the below source.

http://www.ncsl.org/standcomm/sctran/REAL_ID_Act_of_2005.htm

Under the below subsection;

(d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and identification cards:

(1) Employ technology to capture digital images of identity source documents so that the images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format.

(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture.

(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the driver's license.

(12) Provide electronic access to all other States to information contained in the motor vehicle database of the State.

Now, (1) and (12) sure do sound like the want to share information, personal information.

Number (6) sure is going to be a pain in the rear for somebody who has to confirm other states information.

But, (3) is the real killer, 'mandatory facial image capture'. This is technology that is just now starting to come online. To summarize it, it is a technology that takes images from surveliance cameras and does a facial recognition through computer software. By knowing where all the cameras are located, that recognized your face, the operator would be able to follow your every move. Use your imagination on how this could be used.

Barry Digman

01-15-2008, 05:09 PM

What have we really gained or lost by the reactions to terrorism?

Well, that's a pretty good question. I would suggest that the terrorists who attacked the United States on 9-11 wanted to initiate a process of bringing us to our knees. I would also suggest that one of the things that they hated most about the decadent West was our insistence that individual liberty trumped the authority of the state, even if that authority was ordained by Allah. That drives them nuts; the idea that an individual cannot be forced to comply with the order of an imam or a rogue government agent or agency. And now we find ourselves falling all over ourselves to give up liberty piece by piece in order to protect ourselves from something that in reality can only be defended against by creating MORE freedom from government controls in the world. It's insane. Every time the government consolidates a little more power, a little more data, a little more control it means that Osama bin Laden's goals are just a little more fulfilled. Shoot, they don't even need another plane flying into a building. All they need is a country that continues to quiver in her boots while issuing more edicts that do nothing other than curtail individual freedom. I'm not so sure the terrorists are losing.

Barry

01-15-2008, 07:18 PM

Just a test: pull out the driver's license you have right now (if you have one). Look for these items:

1) Full name.

2) Your signature.

3) Date of birth.

4) Sex.

5) A driver's license number.

6) A photograph of your face.

7) Your primary address of residence.

8) Some sort of security feature (a hologram, or a watermark, or a security thread, or something of that nature).

Those are the item required by the "REAL ID" act on your state's driver's license. Are they already there?

Great, so we already have what is required. So now HLS (Feds) wants to duplicate it and charge you and me a bundle of money to accomplish this. I'll sleep feeling so much safer. :rolleyes:

- Barry

Barry

01-15-2008, 07:26 PM

(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture.

Hmmm. . . this will work nicely with that Polar Rose.

Joel

01-15-2008, 07:55 PM

Any type of ID is can be eaisly conterfeited, especially well enough to get by most locations you would produce it. My wife went to the airport for a multi-stop flight to AZ 2 weeks ago. The ticket agent looked at her ID for all of 5 seconds and the boarding agent not even that. The rare but occaisional delay at a NYC Bridge or tunnel is the same.

Perhaps we need to add a DNA tag, GPS and a metal strip with all out medical information.

BULLSEYE BILL

01-16-2008, 02:13 AM

tecumseh

01-16-2008, 06:38 AM

joel writes:
Any type of ID is can be eaisly conterfeited, especially well enough to get by most locations you would produce it. My wife went to the airport for a multi-stop flight to AZ 2 weeks ago. The ticket agent looked at her ID for all of 5 seconds and the boarding agent not even that. The rare but occaisional delay at a NYC Bridge or tunnel is the same.

tecumseh replies:
I think??? the question in play is that some ID's (there is something like 80 that are used from various national and international sources) are easier to conterfeit than others. Not that I am one iota in favor of a national id... au contraire. It would seem to me to be a bit more straight forward to simply insist (yep pass a bill if that is necessary) on those ID that are easy to conterfeit to become more in line with modern day security concerns.

of course there is no way 'a crony' can make a small fortune by simply insisting that other do what they should be doing anyway. and thus my simple idea is doomed to failure.

Kieck

01-16-2008, 09:18 AM

It would be no stretch of the imagination to say interstate highways insure that the mail can get through. Thus, it is a power granted to the Fed's. -nsmith1957

OK. So couldn't "REAL ID" be interpreted as a means of "regulating commerce among the States," also permitted under the Constitution? Keep in mind, if you never wish to leave your state or enter a federal building or use certain institutions of interstate commerce, you will not need an identification card that conforms to the "REAL ID" act.

(1) Employ technology to capture digital images of identity source documents so that the images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format. -nsmith1957

Hmmm. Here where I am, they already have those items stored electronically. If I wish to obtain a certified copy of a birth certificate, for example, and the person whose birth certificate I wish to obtain was born in South Dakota, I can go to any courthouse in the state and almost immediately obtain a certified copy. So what's the change?

(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture. -nsmith1957

The most common method of "facial image capture" used today is the photograph. Since the technology is changing (digital, rather than chemical), the terms may change, but the concept remains the same.

By the way, just in case you didn't already know it, any person has the right to photograph any other person in this country so long as the person taking the photo is in a public or other legally-allowed place. For example, if someone stands in the street and takes a photograph of you in your home, they have the law on their side. If they step onto your property without your permission to take a photograph, then you have the law on your side.

(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the driver's license. -nsmith1957

South Dakota has done this as long as I have known. Kansas does this and has for at least several years. I suspect most states do this. I doubt that you could legally hold drivers' licenses simultaneously from more than one state in any state. That's why the federal government stipulates that states recognize each others' drivers' licenses as valid. Otherwise, you'd have to obtain a driver's license for every state in which you drove.

(12) Provide electronic access to all other States to information contained in the motor vehicle database of the State. -nsmith1957

Again, they've done this in one for or other for years. Let me give you an example: about 15 years ago, my father was pulled over for speeding in Minnesota. The highway patrol radioed in my father's driver's license information, the state of Minnesota checked it with the state of South Dakota, and his record was "shared."

Number (6) sure is going to be a pain in the rear for somebody who has to confirm other states information. -nsmith1957

With number (12), number (6) really shouldn't be all that difficult.

I am not assuming anything about government. If you take a close look at history, you will see that governments have ALWAYS, eventually, abused the power and information that it was given. -nsmith1957

So, because other governments have "abused power and information," you assume that our government will do the same.

Great, so we already have what is required. So now HLS (Feds) wants to duplicate it and charge you and me a bundle of money to accomplish this. I'll sleep feeling so much safer. -Barry

Sorry, I missed it. Where's the "bundle of money" come in? When I get my next driver's license, I believe it will have a holographic outline of the United States in the background (as opposed to the holographic "South Dakota"s printed in the background now). I doubt it will cost me any more than it does now, but I'll have to check on that.

I dunno. Guess I'm not a fan of homogenization. I liked it when all the states' car license plates were different colors. -Hobie

License plates will not be affected by this, so far as I know. And I doubt that all states' drivers' licenses will look the same. For example, mine will say "South Dakota Operator License" across the top and have an image of Mount Rushmore as the background (likely with a hologram of an outline of the United States on top of the image of Mount Rushmore). I doubt a license issued by Pennsylvania will have either the title "South Dakota Operator License" or the image of Mount Rushmore on it, although it likely will have the same hologram on the background.

Joel

01-16-2008, 11:22 AM

"It would be no stretch of the imagination to say interstate highways insure that the mail can get through."

But wouldn't highways fall under providing for the common defense (interstate transportation of troops and supply) or maybe ensuring domestic tranquility?

Think about this when we talk about drivers licenses as National ID. The Governor of our state ordered the DMV to issue drivers licenses to illegal aliens last year.

"Or how about an invisible bar code on your hand or forehead?"

Good idea, wrong location, I think the bar code on the posterior end would be more effective !

Bizzybee

01-18-2008, 05:16 AM

Brent Bean

01-18-2008, 09:53 AM

Bizzbee:

Good point, maybe we shouldn’t worry about it. I know a lot of people will roll their eyes and say OH! What pitiful rubbish, but here it comes anyway. It’s just another sign of the times. Ready or not here we go.

Hobie

01-18-2008, 10:33 AM

And you guys are worried about whether or not you are carrying a valid ID? :):):)

Know it. Don't have to like it.

Heck, I held a DoD secret clearance for a while. I know my info is out there. Doesn't mean I'm going to give in and put it out there more.

dcross

01-18-2008, 12:17 PM

BULLSEYE BILL

01-18-2008, 04:16 PM

I used to worry about the government obtaining information gleaned form the form 4473, Over the Counter Transaction Record, kept by Federally Licensed Firearms dealers. Then it occurred to me that no better than the government is at record keeping, it would be easier to confuse them with too much information.

So buy lots, sell a few, and nobody REALLY knows what you have!

As far as the Mark goes, I am a mid-tribulation believer.

BjornBee

01-18-2008, 04:27 PM

My cell phone has an OFF button:)

oooooooeeeeeeeooooooooo......oooooooeeeeeeooooooo. ....but is it really off? oooooooeeeeeeeoooooooooo.......ooooooooeeeeeeeoooo oooooo..... ;)

And since dna samples taken and microchips have already been installed at birth...who cares about a phone? ooooooooeeeeeeeeooooooooo....;)

Last year at this time, we were talking about the real possibility of whether Pres. Bush was going to step down or declare himself dictator... ooooooooeeeeeeeooooooooo

Barry Digman

01-18-2008, 11:08 PM

Break time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqgmOsL-k4

Ravenseye

01-19-2008, 09:21 AM

Ahhhhh..that was worth breaking for. Thanks Barry!

dcross

01-19-2008, 11:54 AM

Bjorn, is that the theme from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly?:)

Brent Bean

01-19-2008, 12:02 PM

Dcross:

That’s correct, the good would be God, the Bad and Ugly would be the rest of us.
I use to do some Dairy farming on county road Q just north of Zanders. Stopped at your cheese factory a couple of times.

Beekissed

02-18-2008, 09:47 AM

Not at all my friend. Not necessarily a tattoo, but a mark and a number... which could be invisible to the naked eye.

Do some research on "bar codes" and "implants" and you may be just a bit surprised at what you find. Coincidence.?? .. I personally don't think so.

But you're right.. this is not the place for that discussion. We'll pick it up on another thread. ;)

Funny how folks get the idea that the idea of a mark on the forehead or hand is farfetched. Have any of you been keeping up with NAIS? The card that is being discussed was signed into being by President Bush in 2005 under the Homeland Security Act. It is described as having a small chip about the size of the head of an erasure that will hold all of your vital information. You will not be able to have a bank account, purchase food, get a driver's license, etc., etc. without it. Already I can see the problems with this system....the cards can be stolen, lost, breached by the computer Whiz kids, whatever. The next logical step is the implanted chip that is being initiated with the animals. It can't be seen but can be scanned, obviously cannot be stolen or lost (although there is some dispute about that, they tend to "migrate"). These are already in use in some countries to control prisoners who have been released to track their activities (pedophiles). I've heard that these chips have already been breached also.

It's not a real "leap" to think that this is the start of the mark. One fellow asked in a earlier post why Christians get scared when this subject comes to fore. I don't get scared for myself or any other Christian, but I do feel sorrow and compassion for a lot of the people I love who will be living through those times. Christians aren't worried or scared, they've known this will happen for a long time. We don't expect to be here when the worst of all the predictions are coming down! We do like to alert nonbelievers to the realities of what to expect though. Crazy? Whatever.... I'm not the one fretting over world events, politics, crime, etc. I don't have to worry. :)

Brent Bean

02-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Beekissed:

Amen!

dragonfly

02-18-2008, 04:28 PM

Bjorn, is that the theme from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly?:)

I thought it was from "The Wizard of Oz" ;)

Galaxy

02-18-2008, 06:11 PM

More people than don't this day and time carry a cell phone somewhere on their person. I have to wonder if everyone realizes that not only do they already know who you are but also EXACTLY (gps) know WHERE you are. Also that every single conversation you have is being filtered through the super computers at nsa.

And you guys are worried about whether or not you are carrying a valid ID? :):):)

Good post. Bizzybee. Actually, they do not need GPS to know approximately where you are. The phone company always knows (when your cell phone is on) which cell tower(s) you are in range of. And through triangularization (even Microsoft’s spell checker does not know that is a word) they can know precisely where you are. GPS does make it easier.

Triangularization is how the authorities located Kevin Mitnick. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick

He is a famous computer hacker who knew a lot about social engineering, but little about cell phones, obviously. You do not need to know much about computers to be a good social engineer. In fact, politicians are expert social engineers (con-men).

The Israelis and the US have also used cell phones to zap a few terriosts with rockets.

Galaxy

02-18-2008, 08:10 PM

Any type of ID is can be eaisly conterfeited,

Actually, this is only true for weak forms of authentication. When we speak of IDs, we are technically speaking of authentication, the ability to identify who a person truly is.

The concept of authentication is central to computer security. Beesource authenticates you each time you login with a weak one-factor authentication, a password.

Multi-factor authentication can be very difficult (almost impossible) to defeat (counterfeit). It is called strong authentication, but it is more costly. You get what you pay for, at least in a free market system. :) You can read more here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_authentication

Kieck

02-19-2008, 08:46 AM

Actually, they do not need GPS to know approximately where you are. The phone company always knows (when your cell phone is on) which cell tower(s) you are in range of. -Galaxy

Well, sort of. Actually, cell 'phones typically use "AGPS," not GPS. AGPS stands for "Assisted Global Positioning System." On most 'phones, AGPS can be turned off unless you dial an emergency number (911) or use some sort of navigation system on your 'phone.

And the cell 'phone companies warn that AGPS is not very specific and can be and often is blocked by obstructions.

The bigger question, though, is with, say, half of the U. S. population carrying cell 'phones (150 million people), who could monitor such monstrous amounts of data, and why would they care?

And through triangularization (even Microsoft’s spell checker does not know that is a word). . . . -Galaxy

I believe the word you're seeking is "triangulation."