Treatment poll #1

[Joel]

We had a good spirited discussion about 25% of beekeepers at a meeting not using treatments. I think it would valuable for us to see what the position is on treatments from the different levels of beekeeping I've offered. (Hobbyist -1-50, sideliner 50-100, sm. commercial 100-500, large commercial 500+).

For the purpose of this poll/post, treatment is any substance natural or chemical which does not occur naturally in the hive and has been applied by the beekeeper, not including feedings.

A couple of other question I think we could all gain from.

1) A general statement from everyone summing up your position on treatements as a whole.
2) Non-treatment folks at what success level are achieving (winter loss, mite loads, disease frequency?)
3) No-treatment folks- Please list your top 4 or 5 mgt. practices you think contribute to your success (small cell, stock, isolation, smoker fuel, manipulation, anything you use.
4)) What was the last treatement you used and when (non-treatment Beeks and Beekettes)
5) What stock is your primary queen stock

There will be 3 polls, I hope everyone participates and we can gain some perspective from this information.

[Joel]

Here's my position on treatments at this time.

I have the utmost respect for anyone pursuing a path of non-treatment or of low impact, low chemical treatment. I hope you continue and share every success and failure with us.
I don't think non-treatment is financially viable at any level of beekeeping other than in isolated situations and areas and then at the hobbyist level only or in rare cases sideliner level. I have confidence small cell, feral stock and other specifics have significant impact on the reducing the need for treatments ( due to the integrity of those promoting it only). I think eventually the science will find why.

My family eats and lives inside dependant on our bees so I will use any treatment necessary, without risking product safety, to maximize the health and viability of my hives. I will continue to take information from credible presenters and work those ideas and techniques into my operation to reduce treatements and minimze impact from foreign agents introduced into my operation. I will likely continue to experment with a small yard with no treatments and would really like to achieve organic in my lifetime, however unlikely I think that is.

[odfrank]

if you factor in labor. (40 +/- hives each fall) I will again lose half my hives, small cell doesn't help, fluvinate only helped the first two years, ferals seem stronger than bees I bought but also can crash (few are really "ferals"), starting new hives each year by baits & buying queens is the only way I keep my numbers up, produced two tons of honey. Most of the commercial queens and packages I have bought in the last four years crashed promptly.

[beemandan]

(40 +/- hives each fall) I will again lose half my hives, produced two tons of honey

Are you saying that you produce 4000lbs of honey from 20 established and 20 startup hives? (50% losses on 40 hives) That doesn't sound bad at all.
If I were getting that average yield per hive, I believe I could show a profit.

[odfrank]

No, I'm not complaining about the crop, but if half did not die each winter it would be twice that. One site produced 2700 lbs, that brought me through.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/odfrank/SanMateo2007002-1.jpg

[Ian]

I dont think anyone wants to treat for disease. But we all must manage disease accordingly if we want to maintain healthy productive hives. Disease comes part in parcel with farming operations. We need a disease management plan that will sustain our operations and thats what is making our current disease situations a real problem. I dont see any real sustainable treatment plan. Speaking from a commercial farm standpoint. We are currently caught in a short term treatment plan. our industry needs much more resources looking into the development of commercializing alternative treatments methods.

[panubee]

Panhandle:

"1) A general statement from everyone summing up your position on treatements as a whole."

See Michael Bush's website.


"2) Non-treatment folks at what success level are achieving (winter loss, mite loads, disease frequency?)"

Lost 1 of 2 8-frame nucs last winter. Died from starvation. Couldn't get to honey stores. I have not seen a varroa yet. I'm not saying there aren't any. Last summer I took pictures of bees with digital camera, blew up the pictures on the computer and couldn't find any.


"3) No-treatment folks- Please list your top 4 or 5 mgt. practices you think contribute to your success (small cell, stock, isolation, smoker fuel, manipulation, anything you use."

Natural cell (too cheap for small cell), screened bottom boards.

"4)) What was the last treatement you used and when (non-treatment Beeks and Beekettes)"

Never.

"5) What stock is your primary queen stock"

NWC.

[David VanderDussen]

Ian said:
"We need a disease management plan that will sustain our operations and thats what is making our current disease situations a real problem. I dont see any real sustainable treatment plan. Speaking from a commercial farm standpoint. We are currently caught in a short term treatment plan. our industry needs much more resources looking into the development of commercializing alternative treatments methods."

That's what Mite-AwayII is all about. Where you are treat twice a year (spring and when you pull the crop in early September) and you will be fine. A fast, safe, ready-to-use single application that gets both mites. No resistance expected, no residue risks in the honey. $7.00 total a year. I'm six years in on this commercial program and have extra bees I sell every spring. What more could you want in a mite treatment?

David v.

[beehoppers]

#1 My bees have many mites. I have not lost a hive to them yet but I really need to do a better job for them. Last year I used Mite-a-way II last spring and Apiguard last fall. It got a little cool for the Apiguard so the counts stayed up. I'm sugar dusting during warm spells and paying more attention.
#4 Sugar dusting today. An hour or so later I'm close and eye level to a rafter of a building I'm working on and there's a bee sitting there, still covered in sugar, just looking at me....
#5 Russian.

[tecumseh]

Joel it looks there is a defite 50/50 trend in the various categories (up to commercial) for no treatment vs teating when needed.... at this time.

my own strategy is to check, test when I suspect that a hive has problems... treat the sick and leave the well one's alone. I vary my application product from time to time but I will likely never go the sheep dip on a shop towel route (or anything that involves insecticide I wouldn't put in a dog house much less a beehive).

I do test and treat as a routine before knocking out splits in the spring and early summer. another good reason to have a couple of tools in your tool bag.

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

I treat with only natural, no-chemical, substances. eg. powdered sugar - vorroa mite...etc. I do use Guard Star for SHB, but that's outside the hive.

My queen stock is from whatever drones are around at the time they mate. 100% local queens!

-Nathanael:cool:

[BULLSEYE BILL]

1) A general statement from everyone summing up your position on treatements as a whole.

No treatments at all. Nothing is added to the hive that they don't bring in themselves with the exception of feeding.

2) Non-treatment folks at what success level are achieving (winter loss, mite loads, disease frequency?)

I have 15 to 20% winter losses from all causes. Highest majority is from too small nucs starving.

3) No-treatment folks- Please list your top 4 or 5 mgt. practices you think contribute to your success (small cell, stock, isolation, smoker fuel, manipulation, anything you use.

I use Permacomb almost exclusively. No buildup of chemicals. Ventilated top covers and SBB's. Generous feeding of HFCS and pollen in both fall and spring. I queened everything with NWC in 2003, no bought queens since with the exception of three Purvas gold line that did not survive the first winter. I don't split very often, I just add swarms and removals. No smoking.

4)) What was the last treatement you used and when (non-treatment Beeks and Beekettes)

OA vapor in fall of 2004.

5) What stock is your primary queen stock

Caught feral swarms and removals, all of unknown origin.

[Ian]

>>That's what Mite-AwayII is all about. ... What more could you want in a mite treatment?


Your treatment is very temperature dependant. There is no way you can avoid it, just the plain and basic nature of formic.
I have used your system, and burnt many hives. It is the problem with having a climate that can fluctuate soo much within weeks. I am sure if your are situated in an setting where there is a little more of a consistant weather pattern youd be fine. But here, I was trying to find that window, made a few mistakes, and just walked away from the formic treatment.

[Joel]

I think it's encouraging that in this group (Ironcially the same as Beemandans' group) 25% of respondents are going without treatements, even if mostly in the Hobbyist level. I see many of the common denominators I have heard from successful non-treatments in Bulleyes post. I think 15% losses is completely managable. I'm also interested in the fact he mainly does increase from swarms, some identified as feral and some non-descript. Wouldn't it make sense that bees from swarmed hives are from strong stock and possibly going to be better stock despite our concept of the negtive perception of stocks that have swarming tendency.

Beehopper makes another point I've seen and experianced. Our non-treatment stock has had consistently high mite levels mentioned by Beehooper and yet seem to do well. I've heard this from other beeks trying this. Is anyone else seeing bees that have mites but seem to get by despite them.

I would like to hear from more of the 25% non-treatement beeks what their top 5 Mgt. Techniques are and stock??

[beemandan]

I think it's encouraging that in this group (Ironcially the same as Beemandans' group) 25% of respondents are going without treatements,

Ok folks, its time to fess up! We know that you aren't telling the truth.

[acb's]

1)General statement
We'd rather not use any.

2)Success level
1st winter-6 strong hives, no losses. 2nd winter-10 strong hives, no losses. 3rd winter-17 strong hives, no losses. This winter-39 hives. 17 full hives(2 deeps each) and 22 single hives (1 deep with 4 to 10 frames eacn). Didn't get the chance to buildup as strong as we hoped because of dry weather in the fall. Very little nectar flow. Had never tried to bring single boxes through a winter, but decided to gamble. Had 2-3 nights of single digits and up to 22 below wind chills. Checked just this last weekend and found 3 small clusters froze out. First loss in 4 winters, and of course, this one isn't over yet.

3)Management practices
Use wax and plastic foundation, ventilated inner covers, SBB's closed in winter, rarely use smoke and when we do we use sumac cause it's handy and we like it, started with and have stayed with Russians. If I hadn't pushed the envelope this year with my new queens to increase hive numbers considering the fall we had, I'm confident we wouldn't have had any losses at this time.

4)Last treatment
Used wintergreen grease patties the 1st winter. Purchased a couple Russian queens open bred to Italians that developed a noticeable mite presence, so medicated all 6 hives. As a beginner, I thought that was something we were supposed to do, so used a few patties on about half of our hives the 2nd winter. See a mite every so often, but haven't used anything since.

5)Primary queen stock
Russian

[Jack Grimshaw]

"I would like to hear from more of the 25% non-treatement beeks what theirtop 5 Mgt. Techniques are and stock??"

I guess I'm part of the 25%.No treatments since 2004.Is 30-40% loss successful??I make a little money because I don't charge for my labor.

13 hives 6 nucs this winter.

Last year 75 lb avg from 10 hives.Good year.

Can't pick 5 but here's a few .

I requeen crappy hives with a frame of young brood from the best queen in the yard at the time.A break in the brood cycle slows down Varroa.

Keep plenty of drone comb in your good hives to get those virgins mated.

After a certain point,there are no sister queens in each yard but daughters and cousins(except in the nucs)

I bring in new genes every year to make nucs from my dinks(thanks Mike P).I've purchased NWC,Purvis,Russians,and Minn Hyg.

I accept supercedure.A break in the brood cycle slows down Varroa.

Not to many hives in a single yard but 2 yards are within 1/2 mi.

Custom SBB,closed bottom all year. 3/4 x 14 1/2 entrance w/ 1/2 mesh mouse guard all year. Top entrance. Q excluder when needed

Burn AFB as soon as noticed.All the wood,bees and honey,early AM to get all the bees.
( I have burned plastic foundation.I won't do it again.Kill bees.Scrape wax and honey,burn with wood and landfill plastic in garbage bag)

Shake down chaulkbrood on to new foundation.Destroy comb.Re queen if queen is weak.Repeat 1 time,then kill bees.Haven't had to kill bees yet.

Cull old and draw new comb every year in each hive.

Use deadouts as an excuse to cull old comb heavily.

Shake out drone layers if I can't reQ in 1 brood cycle.One less hive to work.

Learn more about bees,read the books and the journals.

Learn more about bees,attend meetings and question the experts.

Learn more about bees,talk to other beekeepers to find out what is working for them.

I have left out some but I'm starting to repeat myself.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Wouldn't it make sense that bees from swarmed hives are from strong stock and possibly going to be better stock despite our concept of the negtive perception of stocks that have swarming tendency.

I think a lot of the negatives are because the primary swarms will more than likely requeen them selves within the first few weeks. They seem to start off great guns, then taper off with a break in the brood rearing while the new queen takes over. Care needs to be taken during this time that the extra queens raised while in supersedure don't take off with a lot of the worker population, then the subsequent year will be a boomer.

Smaller swarms are usually young queens and seem to do better the first year than a primary swarm.

[beemandan]

I think a lot of the negatives are because the primary swarms will more than likely requeen them selves within the first few weeks.

I have never heard this. This information comes from?

[BjornBee]

I have never heard this. This information comes from?


Beemandan
I don't have any references at my fingertips, as I don't catalog or bookmark a lot of what I read. But in researching ferals and swarming, with my own observations, as well as many discussions with others in the field, I would say that the number is close to 50% of primary swarms re-queen themselves within 30 to 60 days.

Not sure if its a combination of factors that bees do this. Do they want to maximize their success rate by having an old established queen leave with the primary swarm, and then re-queen to younger stock once established, that nature does prefer?

Swarming is a type of supersede for the original hive. The original hive benefits from a new younger queen. That motive for young queens is preferred. Is it also carried over to the new colony after they are established? I'm not sure of the connections and perhaps the full reasoning.

But I do know from my own observations over several years now, that swarms will in fact replace queens at a high rate.

I have looked or tried to look, at possible differences of requeening with regards to the reasoning of swarms. Do some hives swarm and supersede at the same time due to flow and seasonal urge (like when a hive swarms from a package with ample space and maybe 8 frames drawn)? Or do some swarms originate from other factors such as crowding/congestion/lack of open comb and have different motives for swarming and perhaps secondary motives of "not" replacing queens? I'm sure many have seen swarming from both instances. Certainly swarms may be cast for different reasons or triggers. And maybe whether a queen gets replaced soon after the swarm settles depends on these original triggers mechanisms.

So much to look at, but so little time.

[beemandan]

Swarming is a type of supersede for the original hive.

Actually, as I understand it, swarming is a means of perpetuating the species.

I wasn't questioning whether BB's comments were fact or not, I was interested in the source of the information. I surely don't expect anyone to do the research for me. I just wanted to be sure that it was the result of documentation before I looked for it myself. If, on the other hand you or BB have any recollection of where that was written and let me know it'd shorten my search time and would be appreciated.

The idea that they replace the swarm queen so quickly is counter to everything I understand and have personally observed about swarm dynamics.

[BjornBee]

Actually, as I understand it, swarming is a means of perpetuating the species.

I wasn't questioning whether BB's comments were fact or not, I was interested in the source of the information. I surely don't expect anyone to do the research for me. I just wanted to be sure that it was the result of documentation before I looked for it myself. If, on the other hand you or BB have any recollection of where that was written and let me know it'd shorten my search time and would be appreciated.

The idea that they replace the swarm queen so quickly is counter to everything I understand and have personally observed about swarm dynamics.

Dan, I did not say that swarming was not for the general or primary concern of reproduction. That is true. but when a hive swarms, the original colony also performs a type of supersedure. (Replacement of the old queen)

If you don't think swarming is part supersedure, then explain this.

Why does a same size colony, swarm at different rates depending solely on the age of the queen? Studies have shown that a first year queen in established hives will swarm half as likely as a two year old queens.

If defining swarming as nothing more than reproduction, with little else added, then would not all hives swarm at the same rate, based on triggers such as flow, timing, and other factors?

Swarming is a type of supersedure. Yes, primarily for reproduction or perpetuation of the species, but other secondary factors are present.

I'll look for the replacement of the queen rates.

[beemandan]

I'll look for the replacement of the queen rates.
Don't worry about the replacement queen rates, I can do a search when I find a little time. I do appreciate the offer.

I took your statement about swarming as a form of supercedure as a 'stand alone' statement. Overall I don't think we disagree on the process.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Dan, my statements are made from my own personal observations. I have also heard the same from others like Bjorn as well. Obviously, as with all things with bees, your mileage will vary.

Perhaps more later, I have to run to work. :(

[allrawpaul]

Last treatment was oxalic vapor two days ago. After 3 treatments, saw over 500 total mites fall in one hive, less than 20 in a couple. The rest in between. Oxalic has only been effective for me in winter. Planning to go with fgmo/thymol fogging for the rest of the year. Am optimistic about fogging. I am regressing with small cell starter strips. I use grease patties with mineral salt and wintergreen oil. Will use fumigillin this spring and then start using it regularly in the fall. Am going to do menthol treatment in early august. I use a couple oxalic vapor treatments on every swarm I catch. My bees are mongrel Italians(havent bought queens in 3 years. Last time a bought a few queens they were Kona Italians.) Fortunately, luckily, my bees are very gentle. Had only a couple stings last year, and very few tried to sting my leather gloves. If I had a hot hive I would have requeened, but didnt have any last year. My 13 hives are still alive, but I have a feeling the clusters are small and that I could lose a few this winter due to varoa. I expect to do much better next year. I prefer to use treatments that can be applied at any time of year and dont leave toxic residue in combs. My bees would succumb quickly if left untreated. I use sbb's and leave the drawers on all season. I paint the edges of the drawers with mineral oil/vaseline so the mites cant crawl back up into the hives. I just built 13 slatted bottom racks to be installed in the spring(is that a varoa control device? Not that I know Of.) Will let you know if the fgmo/thymol is a success. Good luck everyone. Paul.

[notaclue]

I treat as needed...unless genetics selection, SBB, starter strips and powdered sugar (sprinkle as needed) counts as treating all the time.

[Joel]

(I would say that the number is close to 50% of primary swarms re-queen themselves within 30 to 60 days.)

Most likely due to the queen who is swarming with the orginal hive often being a 2 nd yr. or later year queen who has been laying well for a year or more, must have some laying stress upon starting the new hive and is likely needed to be superceded after 30-60 days. Only make sense to me.

"Ok folks, its time to fess up! We know that you aren't telling the truth." by Beemandan

Dan: I said the ones in your group were lying, I know everyone here is honest! :D