View Full Version : Dead Bees in the Snow
This is our first winter with bees and so far we've tried to do everything correctly and have pretty much accomplished the opposite. So, now it is winter and we have had sub-freezing temperatures for about three weeks and snow for two. After each snow storm, we had been going out to the hives (2) to admire them and contemplate how they were doing. Each time we go out, we are pretty worried about the numbers of bees who seem to be leaving the hives and dying around them. There might be as many as thirty bees a day who have gone out for a cleansing flight and don't make it back. They must be flying when it is in the low thirties because that's what they got today.
Is this normal? Do bees usually leave the hive this often in the winter? Is the number of dead bees an indication of something else?
Michael Palmer
12-14-2007, 04:13 PM
Is this normal? Do bees usually leave the hive this often in the winter? Is the number of dead bees an indication of something else?
30 a day seems a bit much. If that doesn't slow down, you could send a sample to your state bee inspector. He would check for Tracheal mites. Pick 50 fresh bees off the snow, and place in zip lock with alcohol. Call the Dep't of Agriculture in Augusta. Plant and Pest division, I think. Ask for the state bee inspector (Tony Jadczak). He'll tell you how to procede.
If the problem is Tracheal mite, or Nosema, there's not much you can do at this point. If it's just old bees leaving the cluster, I expect the loss of bees will slow way down.
Sundance
12-14-2007, 05:21 PM
Are you seeing lots of droppings on the snow and landing board??
There seem to be a lot of droppings on the snow but not the landing board or out the upper deep vent hole.
Sundance
12-14-2007, 06:31 PM
Nosema is pretty messy stuff and likely the vent hole would be pretty nasty,
I'd follow Michaels recommendation or get yourself a microscope and check them out.
Thanks, guys. I've heard Tony Jadczek talk about Tracheal mites often. I used the grease patties all summer but it could be that the mites are in the hive even so. I'll send some samples off to Tony. When I look into microscopes I usually can only see eyelashes for some stupid reason.
naturebee
12-14-2007, 07:44 PM
This is our first winter with bees and so far we've tried to do everything correctly and have pretty much accomplished the opposite. So, now it is winter and we have had sub-freezing temperatures for about three weeks and snow for two. After each snow storm, we had been going out to the hives (2) to admire them and contemplate how they were doing. Each time we go out, we are pretty worried about the numbers of bees who seem to be leaving the hives and dying around them. There might be as many as thirty bees a day who have gone out for a cleansing flight and don't make it back. They must be flying when it is in the low thirties because that's what they got today.
Is this normal? Do bees usually leave the hive this often in the winter? Is the number of dead bees an indication of something else?
Sometimes after a storm goes through, the bright sun from
the high pressure clear skies that follow may
tend to bring out some bees which get disoriented and
fly into the snow.
I don’t think it is anything to worry about.
Someone once said “I love to see dead bees in the snow”
because it is an indication of a living colony.
NO bees on the snow is when I start worrying.
Best Wishes,
Joe
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles
FeralBeeProject.com
>>Is this normal? Do bees usually leave the hive this often in the winter? Is the number of dead bees an indication of something else?
Its normal. I wouldnt worry about it. Not much you can do about it now anyway.
I use to be concerned about seeing those bees also. Michael is right, it might be t mites or nosema. But they usually leave piles of bees infount of the hive. That is a concerning sight.
What I think is happening is, the bees are mearly old dieing summer bees having the chance to break cluster and releaving themselfs from the hive just as they do anyother time of the year. I will find bees up to 100 meters away from my wintering yards! Those bees have no intention to return to the hive. I always wonder about the sun and snow theory, and it doesnt make any sence to me. If it were true, why dont all the bees fly out? It only seems to be a few. It looks worse than it really is.
I also winter bees inside. they do the same thing in complete darkness, just as they do outside. I would say, there is about the same amount of bees scattered in the snow as I sweep up in my wintering shed.
So why are flying out of the hive inside? It must be becasue they are programed to, to leave the hive as they are dieing off.
Oldbee
12-15-2007, 06:15 PM
I saw this just today. A honeybee came out from the lower entrance and proceeded to fly off ............into the snowflakes that were gently falling from the sky with a big Silver Maple in the background; I did not see it fly back to the hive. Another bee flew out a short distance and landed in the soft snow. It fluttered and buzzed untill it was was buried by an avalanche of white flakes. I saw a bee upon the snow from another hive that appeared to be quite..dead.............I picked it up with gloved hand and noticed, to my surprise, that it's abdomen was still,.....................moving,................ pulsating. I put "her" in the plastic bag that held my camera. Now I have "her" in a plastic container that is used for comb honey. She is running wildly about like a caged tiger [in my apartment,lol] though I have fed her with a bit of comb honey. What shall I do with her now!!??
"What I think is happening is, the bees are mearly old dieing summer bees having the chance to break cluster and releaving themselves from the hive just as they do anyother time of year".---------Ian.
Is this the cause of CCD?? Perhaps the bees are responding [inadvertently] to a virus, a pesticide, or something else that makes them "THINK"....they are .............old now....and,........... must leave the hive?
Or they are just old, and ready to die.
Michael Palmer
12-16-2007, 08:12 AM
Someone once said “I love to see dead bees in the snow”
because it is an indication of a living colony.
NO bees on the snow is when I start worrying.
Best Wishes,
Joe
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles
FeralBeeProject.com
I can't completely agree. Yeah, ok. A few dead bees in the snow can be an indication of a living colony. More can be an indication of a dying colony. I guess it's all a matter of degree.
This photo was taken in February, in one of my yards in St. Albans, Vermont. All the colonies (and mating nucs above) were quiet...except one. I took a sample of 50 freshly dead bees, in alcohol. Sent it off to TJ, my favorite inspector. He writes back, "Are you setting me up? This has to be the most heavily infested sample I've seen. 95% infested."
So, a few dead bees in the snow is no big deal. But when it gets to be like this one...
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0006-1.jpg
naturebee
12-16-2007, 05:20 PM
I can't completely agree. Yeah, ok. A few dead bees in the snow can be an indication of a living colony. More can be an indication of a dying colony. I guess it's all a matter of degree.
So, a few dead bees in the snow is no big deal. But when it gets to be like this one...
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0006-1.jpg
I agree!
But also depends on the accompanying symptoms and location
of the dead bees.
The colony you show on the right appears to be a bad sign, due to the
symptoms of dysentery near the entrance, and too many dead bees far
too close to the hive.
If dead bees are spread out in a different manner,
it may NOT necessarily be an indication of a troubled colony.
A warm cleansing flight day in February, might produce a
hundreds of dead bees being cleaned out of the colony, and some succumbing
on the snow during flight outward from the hive to greater distances.
Even though this degree of bees on the snow would be considered GREAT.
These bees may have died over a 3 months time, and cleaned out only
in a day or two. I would tend to see it as a positive sign, indicating a colony
strong enough to clean dead bees from the hive.
Newbees do worry about seeing dead bees on the snow.
But I explain, bees, black in the snow will cause rapid melting of snow near that
dead bee. What may appear to be 30 dead bees from one days flight,
may perhaps be dead bees from several days worth of attrition.
Ian had a very good point that summer bees and excess bees need to die off
during these first cold spells, this is a survival strategy in relieving
the burden from the colony for feeding bees that are not the ones
that will be carrying the colony through winter.
Bee hunters in the early days
were keen to this early winter
attrition of old bees, and used
this knowledge to locate bee trees.
From, Bees and Wild Honey:
“The old-time bee hunter knew his
business well, and many were the ways
he had of finding the stored sweets.
One of the most used was the snow
hunt in early winter, when the first
snow fell. The hunter went into the
woods, going from tree to tree looking
about the roots for dead bees upon the
snow, as it was known that all dead
bees are removed from the hive and
dropped beneath.”
(1909 - Bees and Wild Honey)
Best Wishes,
Joe Waggle
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/HistoricalHoneybeeArticles
FeralBeeProject.com
>>Bee hunters in the early days
were keen to this early winter
attrition of old bees, and used
this knowledge to locate bee trees.
Cool!
Jim Fischer
12-17-2007, 12:36 AM
> Bee hunters in the early days were keen to this early winter
> attrition of old bees, and used this knowledge to locate bee trees.
Wait a second here... let's think this through slowly...
So you wander through the woods in the snow, looking at the base
of EVERY DARN TREE IN THE WOODS, hoping to find one that has
some dead bees around it in the snow?
And you do this for how long before you give up and go home
empty-handed with frostbitten toes? :)
Seriously, this may have been a method that could result in some
level of "success" back in the days when hives in trees were common
(like early 1980s or earlier), but back then, one could have also "found
a hive" using a dowsing rod, tarot cards, or even by throwing a frizzbee
in random directions and looking only at the trees the frizbee hit.
These days, the method might help to narrow down the exact tree
if one has lined the bees to a small area, but can't see (or HEAR) the
actual hive, but it would be a long cold and disappointing day's
trudge through the snow if it were the only tactic used, and one
had nothing but a hope that one would stumble into the right
20-foot wide area where one might see bees in the snow.
Mike Palmer's photo has about 4 times as many bees as I would
require to declare the colony "in serious trouble", but Mike is in
a very cold area (Northern VT), so his snow lasts longer, and his
dead bees are better preserved than anything I would ever see
as a result.
Look at it this way -
it is always the differences between hives that are revealing.
So, do the nearest hives to yours ALSO have similar numbers
of bees in the snow around them? Call around and ask.
(Know your neighbors, join your local beekeeping association!)
naturebee
12-17-2007, 04:39 PM
Wait a second here... let's think this through slowly...
So you wander through the woods in the snow, looking at the base
of EVERY DARN TREE IN THE WOODS, hoping to find one that has
some dead bees around it in the snow?
And you do this for how long before you give up and go home
empty-handed with frostbitten toes? :)
If you have a destination, or purpose,
you are not wondering. ;)
I’ve spent 9 hour days still hunting
in 10F weather with muzzleloader.
The cold is no big deal, your feet warm
right up when your walking.
If someone fears the cold,
they should probably stay inside. ;)
Seriously, this may have been a method that could result in some
level of "success" back in the days when hives in trees were common
(like early 1980s or earlier),
It is effective today, with a good strategy in place.
I have found several bee trees in the
early fall by finding property line trees, and searching
for large trees, especially black cherry.
I found a bee tree last winter using the snow method.
It was helpful to watch a bee tree section I
have sitting in the yard. When I saw that cleansing
and hive cleaning was in progress, I went for a
walk and located a bee tree in a large oak tree.
Joe
Jim Fischer
12-17-2007, 07:37 PM
> ...in a large oak tree
Yeah, bees do tend to favor oak trees.
Perhaps that's slightly easier - look for oaks from
ridgelines, and THEN go look for bees in the snow.
> If you have a destination, or purpose,
> you are not wondering.
Well, I still wonder what your destination might be,
even though you'd claim such wandering has a purpose.
Have fun in the snow!
Oldbee
12-17-2007, 08:13 PM
"So you wonder in the woods in the snow looking at the base of EVERY DARN TREE IN THE WOODS, hoping to find some dead bees around it in the snow?"..............empty -handed, with frostbitten toes?" - Jim Fischer.
I certainly wouldn't look at the base of,.. "EVERY DARN TREE IN THE WOODS". I would look at/around the,.........BIG scraggly ones, the ones with big broken branches, big old "bruisers" that Pilleated Woodpeckersl like to chip away at and build their nests in; the ones 200 years old or more. Those kind of big old trees that honey bee scouts sought out in the olden days with thick bark and enough space for 5, 10 square etc. lol. feet of comb to sustain them through harsh winters. I don't have to look at "every one"
If this is the case; that we cannot find dead bees on the snow beneath old trees in woods in the wilderness, where perhaps viable/survivor hives exist, then the whole notion of mite survivor honey bees is a beekeepers fantasy.
I walk in the BIG old woods all the time; I never know what I will find or see.
naturebee
12-18-2007, 05:49 PM
*Yeah, bees do tend to favor oak trees.
Not sure about that.
But they will favor oaks with voids,
over those with out. ;)
Here in my area, I would say at least
70% of the bee trees are in Black Cherry
voids.
*Perhaps that's slightly easier - look for oaks from
ridgelines, and THEN go look for bees in the snow.
I simply walk towards the next largest tree I see.
Black Cherry are best for finding bees, Oaks
on the borders tend to have voids as they are
several hundred years old. Trees that look gnarly,
damaged or not growing properly, are good candidates.
Joe