How did you get started?

[Matt Guyrd]

Greetings to all!

First, what a great resource this is going to be for me. Thanks to all of you for your contributions!

I stumbled on to this forum partly by accident when googling for beekeeping equipment and supplies. I will be taking a beekeeping class in February '08. I have read my first book, Richard Bonney's Beekeeping - A Practical Guide, with great interest. My next read is Langstroth's Hive and the Honey-Bee - The Classic Beekeeper's Manual. Although a wealth of info, I am not sure it is the best second book for a beginner.

My question is in regards to starting the equipment purchasing. With the holidays upon us, it seems like a nice opportunity to score a few items. But, more importantly, I am looking for direction on how to purchase my first hives.

Should I start with one of the kits, or should I just buy the initial essentials separately? How did you start out and would you do it the same or differently if you had to do it again? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I have a well-equipped wood shop, so making my own hive boxes and supers is an option, although I have some-what resigned to the idea of purchasing the first hive or two, unassembled.

Thanks in advance!
Matt

[iddee]

I would start with only the items I intended to use the first six months.
Protective gear, smoker, hive tool, hives, frames, foundation. It is better, imho, to pay a second freight charge than have money in stuff I will not use.

PS. Welcome to the board.

[kirk-o]

Good advice from the previous post
kirkobeeo

[Mike Gillmore]

If you have a decent shop and some woodworking skills, my suggestion would be to buy "1" of all these basic hive parts you will be needing....

Hive body - (recommend going with all mediums for brood and supers)
Screened bottom board
Inner cover
Top cover

Use them as patterns and build your own.

The frames are a bit more complicated and it might make sense to just buy what you need to start with.

Welcome to beekeeping!

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

Addressing beekeeping books: I've heard rave reviews about Bonney's books, however I have not read either of them. I have read most of Langstroth on the Hive and the Honey Bee and feel that it is certainly a good book for beginners. Though some parts are out-dated it lays the foundation of what has become modern beekeeping methods. Another good read would be Beekeeping for Dummies (my first beekepeing book), It is a handy reference tool and also has plans for making your own equipement.

How I got started: I started with a beginner's course provided by my local association last Jan. ('06) We (my mom and I) bought our first hive as a beginnner's kit (The polystyrene) from BetterBee in NY for a few reasons;
1. It was less expensive and a bigger bang for our buck than the other bee suppliers.
2. We got the beginners kit because we needed the basics (smoker, veil, helmet etc...)
3. We liked the idea of lighter and better insulated polystyrene (BeeMax), which BetterBee specializes in and has the best prices on.

My advice: Decide what kind of equipement you want to use (Woodenware, BeeMax Polystyrene, maybe even plastic.) In your situation I'd look into making your own woodenware. Mike had a good suggestion, get an example and use that as your plans. I'd go ahead and order your frames, it's a whole lot easier. Look into Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, they're offering free shipping on the east coast to Bee Culture and ABJ magazine subscribers for the holiday season. If you can get your hands on a Dec. issue of one of those magazines that would be a great deal!

Some more particulars: I'd use crimp wire wax foundation to start with. You can experiment from there. When you order your frames and foundation go ahead and also get your bee suit. There are many designs out there so spend some time reaserching them. Personally I'm doing fine with a painter's coverall from ebay and a tie down veil. There are alway options of being frugle! Oh, and above all, join your local association. It's a great learning center, says me, the V.P. of my association, we just want people to show up! No, seriously they are a good place for learning more about beekeeping.

Hope you can wade through all that and get something out of it.:D Welcome to BeeSource and the beekeeping community! You're in for a fun ride!!:)

-Nathanael:cool:

[BigDaddyDS]

Personally, I'd stay away from those "Beginner Kits". They look like a pretty good deal, but they are typically loaded with items that you won't use or will be used once and discarded.

(I have a box filled with Boardman (entrance) feeders and hive (yellow bee) brushes that I'll eventually donate to my local bee club. In fact, that'd be a good thread to start; What is the most useless piece of beekeeping equipment you've used?)

My opinion is to buy items piecemeal, with the advice of seasoned beekeepers whom you trust. With your first year, I'd stick with traditional equipment and get a feel for what you're doing. But, I'd also keep a notebook and write down all the things you'd like to try out in your second year. And keep a log of what you've done, so you can look back and see why certain things happened. (Everything happens for a reason, afterall.)

And, at least in my area, I can't buy the wood to make my own woodenware for what it costs for pre-cut unassembled woodenware. From listening to others on this forum, unless you've got a source for scrap lumber, you might not be able to either. If you do make your own woodenware, stick with traditional dimensions, so it'll be compatable with bought equipment and have some resale value later on down the line. Buy one for a pattern, make the rest. And don't screw around trying to make your own frames. Just buy them!

For the first year, I'd buy all my woodenware in unassembled kit form. You'll be too overwhelmed with the bees themselves to be concerned with woodworking.

Enjoy, and prepare to drink from the firehose of knowledge! Welcome to beekeeping!

DS

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

In fact, that'd be a good thread to start; What is the most useless piece of beekeeping equipment you've used?

Go for it BigDaddy!;)

[BigDaddyDS]

How funny! Nathanael and I were posting at the same time, and it appears that our answers are 180-degrees out from each other! :D

It just goes to show you, "Ask 12 beekeepers a question, and you'll get 13 different answers!"

Ha-ha!

DS

[mlewis48]

I would stay away from the kits. If you have a wood shop and the know how to build your own, you can save alot of money. The shipping on the stuff will kill you. There are alot of sites out there with free plans to download. Good way to pass time untill Spring gets here.:)

[spunky]

I started this year as a beek; I just thought it would be nice to have a few hives around, for some honey and something to tinker with while gardening. It is more work than I had planned.


Some folks sell complete hives, bees included, you can go pick up

I like the boardman feeders

If you go for several hives get different breeds of bees ; see what you like

I found most of the bee books I bought a waste.

Get the biggest smoker you can afford, and dont feel bad if ya want a full bee suit.

This is a great forum, use the search function; it will serve you well

[yoyo]

HEY, I started with a kit ( Dadant). The reason I did was that it gave me everything I needed to start with, including one complete two story hive body,quickly ( it was May). It came with plastic cell foundation and I have since replaced that stuff ( being polite) with wired wax .The bee brush I have used only when capturing swarms. I have even used the boardman feeders, allthough they can suck that down in a half of a day. If you are in a hurry, then A kit can be a quick entry. If you are not in a hurry, I second the other post about buying one of each item and replicating them yourself, if you have the time that is. I would start with AT LEAST two hives, as I have one strong and one weak and you learn alot that way. You will need 3 times as many wooden ware hives,frames, bottoms ect, than you think so be prepared. I made some deeps after buying the kit and I have a nice woodshop and they were a pain cutting the finger joints and painting. I have been building screened bottoms and telescoping tops now. Take advantage of the free Dec. shipping at Brushy Mountain and welcome aboard.

Oh, and my first experience with bees was at a filed day with the local club( I had no suit but was loaned a veil), Second experience was an extraction from a barn. WHAT A RUSH!

[Matt Guyrd]

As mentioned in my first post, this is going to be a great place to hang around to learn and share. Thank you for the insightful responses!

I have been skeptical of the kits but attracted to the one-stop purchase to get started. However, I do believe in frugality and would enjoy purchasing and building components separately. The problem is in my indecisive ways! Some say knowledge is power, but it can be confusing too! The more I read, the more I realize everyone really does have different experiences. This is good in that it allows me to see aspects of beekeeping from many view points. But when seeking out purchases, do I buy from Dadant, Brushy Mt, Kelley, Humble Abode, Miller, Mann Lake, etc?? Who has the best prices, best quality, best shipping, and best customer services?

LOL...as you can see, I get way too caught up in the cost and quality issues that make my head spin. But with the good directions from you all, I'll be diving in and creating my own experiences to share, good, bad, and indifferent.

I do like the the idea of two hives. I am reading that medium brood boxes and supers should be considered although my inexperience makes me think the the larger brood boxes would be better with medium supers. I'll have to read more about this.

I will likely go with woodenware. The Beemax equipmment is intriguing, but I am more of a traditionalist (and a woodworker:rolleyes:).

I like the idea of a top feeder as oppose to the entrance feeder, but I will need to inquire more about the pros and cons of each.

Documenting through journals and pictures seems practical on many fronts.

I am looking forward to this ride! Thanks again for the feedback!

Matt

[Hobie]

Hello! I would definitely recommend considering Brushy Mountain's free shipping offer Dec 1-20. Saves a bundle on woodenware shipping. And visit Michael Bush's site and think about "all mediums" before you order.

[BigDaddyDS]

Thankfully, through the magic of standardization, equipment all (pretty much) fits the same. So, if you do buy from Dadant this time, you can buy from Brushy Mountain the next. You'll soon find out that all this stuff is rather weighty, and shipping costs MUST be factored into prices. (In other words, free shipping is HUGE! As is having a local outlet; Dadant for me, personally.)

I bought some complete colonies that were in the process of being converted over to a "all medium-type system" last summer, and I really thought long and hard about sticking with that ideal. But, I determined that I liked the two deep boxes, with medium supers, instead. (That, and my back is still strong!) Maybe I'll switch over later, but for right now, it doesn't fit into my "grand scheme".

And, I have to agree with you. Top feeders SEEM to make the most sense! Until you open the top up and discover hundreds and hundreds of drowned bees, due to a faulty corner on the feeder which allowed the bees to get into the syrup reservoir. (Grrr!) After that... bucket feeders don't seem so bad!

DS

[Troutsqueezer]

As for the deep brood box versus the medium: Go out and buy a 90lb bag of portland cement which will represent the worst case weight of a deep box, load it in and out of your vehicle several times, but move it very slowly and deliberately, don't want to disturb the bees! Pick it up and move it around and walk thru grass and over rocks and remember, if you drop it you will become a bee magnet.

Then, consider again, what size brood box you might want to use. :)

[Michael Bush]

Here's my advice:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnewbees.htm

[Matt Guyrd]

TroutSqueezer...nice analogy...puts the box size issue in perspective.

Michael...thank you for your response. I actually read many parts of your website over the last week when recommended in other posts. A wealth of knowledge to contemplate and refer to time and time again. Thank you for the effort you have placed in your website. The info is likely valuable to all beekeepers, but particularly to those of us just starting out.

Matt

[NeilV]

I've only been at this one season, but here's my thoughts:

1. Skip the kits. Figure out what equipment you want and buy that. It will probably be cheaper that way.

2. Get screened bottom boards with a slot where you can insert a board to inspect for mite drop. Those don't come in the kits I've seen. They cost more, but are worth it.

3. I've never used boardman feeders, but I have heard way too much bad about them to try. Use an in hive, enclosed feeding method -- hive top, division board, pail or baggie.

4. If you want to save a little money, and you're not in a really cold place, consider migratory hive covers instead of telescoping outer cover and inner cover.

5. If you have room and money for it, get at least two hives.

6. Don't worry about the breed of bees too much. They all have their good and bad points. Its probably most important to just get a good laying queen, and that's in part just a matter of luck. Do try to find somebody who has gentle bees, particularly if you will keep them near your family or neighbors.

7. I started out with all mediums. I think that, truth be told, the bees probably like having a brood area on a deep frame. That being said, mediums are easier to work, and the bees will use them too. Do what you like. Unless you have a bad back, this is not a terribly big deal. (Michael Bush will point out that using deeps could give you that bad back, and he may be right.)

8. I've gotten by fine without a bee suit, and I think that is an optional purchase. I use a veil, a heavy white shirt over my clothes and sometimes wear gloves. I usually don't use smoke. But my bees are gentle. Don't blame me if you follow this advice and get stung.

9. All of the equipment suppliers I've tried make good stuff. Find one close to you and save on shipping. The Brushy Mtn. free shipping deal west of the Missippi is a great deal you should jump on if you don't have a source within easy driving distance.

10. Remember that many people have lots of differing opinions about how to do things. Listen to other beekeepers, but remember that a lot of this stuff is just personal taste and/or advice suited to particular locales (maybe not to your locale). People can do things different ways, disagree with each other and all of them still be right, cause if it works, it works (somebody would add, "if you let it").

ndvan

[berkshire bee]

Welcome, I started out reading both of Richard Bonney's excellent books. Made four hive bodies and 4 supers from some 7/8" thick pine,and everything else but frames. I still make most everything but frames and usually buy hive bodies from Betterbee. Their wood's also 7/8". As noted above, you can buy one of everything and use for patterns. Lots of good advice from the guys and gals here is free but We encourage making a donation to keep the site going

[Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary]

I've used all the equipement included in the beginner's kit my mom and I started with. That's what I like about BetterBee's kit, they don't have a lot of useless bells a whistles. But as BigDaddy DS indicated, every beekeeper has his own way, what worked for me may not work for DS or you, but, hey, maybe it will!:D

I have found BetterBee to have the best price on shipping with Brushy Mountain as the runner up! Also look at BetterBees monthly sale items, you may find something you need.

As far as feeders are concerned: I've used Hive Top Feeders and Entrance Feeders. The Hive Top won out by far! Entrance Feeders are close to worthless and may cause more harm than good. I highly recomend BetterBee's Polystyrene feeder. It's one solid piece of polystyrene, so it won't leak, and very long lasting.

No I'm not a BetterBee salesman;), I've just been very immpressed with them.

One thing you'll find, and have found already, on this forum is you'll get several various answers to your questions. Doin't get frusterated, just pick out the idea you think will work for you. That's the beauty of BeeSource!:)

-Nathanael:cool:

[notaclue]

I also started with Better Bee for a kit. I have used everything they sent. The kit had two deeps and two mediums with frames, wired standard cell foundation, inner cover, SBB with tray, solid bottom board, styrene telescoping outer cover, styrene (BeeMax) top feeder (which IMHO works great), entrance reducer, standard hive tool, small smoker (I am getting a larger one since I have more hives), helmet and veil, and 'The New Starting Right With Bees' published by A.I. Root as well as all the nails I needed to assemble everything. I just added glue, paint and sore thumbs and fingers.

I understand they have an assembled eight frame kit also that has gloves (which I don't use anymore) that I'ld keep for anyone who visits and wants them.


I spent a lot of time researching prices and shipping over two and a half years ago and almost paralyzed myself with over analysis. Had to get a box from another beek when I should have had mine all set up when an unexpected cutout showed up.

[riverrat]

i started with an old junk used smoker and a new veil and hive tool I bought a couple of established hives to learn with then bought what I found I needed has time went by. spent a lot of time making mistakes the first year but learned from them read every thing I could get my hands on and spent time on beesource.

[Muddywaters]

Hi and welcome to beekeeping. I just completed my first year and luckily had a mentor beekeeper to help me along. He too is a wood butcher and builds much of his own equipment. I began with 3 lbs. of three banded Italian bees with a marked queen. It is a good idea to order early. When they arrived in May they were placed in the following set up (bottom to top):
1. Hive stand
2. Bottom Board with entrance reducer
3. Lower Hive 9 5/8" body with frames and foundation installed (These have to be put together in advance)
4. Hive top feeder
5. Telescoping Hive top
6. Red brick
It is important that you keep feed (sugar) in the feeder the first six weeks, this will give them a good start. I had the following on hand:
1. Hive tool
2. Bee brush (regardless of what I have seen, they are useful sometimes)
3. Hazmat suit
4. gloves
5. veil
6. smoker
7. wood shavings from a planer
During the year I also used the following:
1. Second 9 5/8" hive body with frames and foundation
2. Queen excluder
3. 2 Supers with frames and foundation with 9 frame spacers
4. Inner cover with small piece of plywood from bee shipping box
5. Porter style bee escape
6. Fumagilin-B
7. Mouse guard

Although honey processing is available to me I did one 4 3/4" super for cut-comb honey, which required that I buy a comb cutter and boxes. My other super was a "shallow" 5 11/16" super--which I am told are easier to handle than a "medium" 6 5/8" super when full of honey.
Everything is built from cypress and painted except the hive top feeder which is built of poplar to keep it from leaking. He uses a biscuit and rabbet joint to put things together and a dadoe blade to cut the handles in the various components. My mentor encouraged me to read so I consulted Bee Keeping for Dummies often and came to this site. Have a great time.

[Matt Guyrd]

Okay...this has been a great response and enlightening.

I am going to fore-go the kit idea and purchase items separately. This has brought on a coulpe of new questions.

Frame type. This too can garner different opinions. Grooved versus divided bottom bar, grooved versus wedged top bar. My initial thougth is grooved bottom bar and wedged top bar, but I have never seen (aside form pictures) this setup.

Foundation. I'm assuming natural sized cells in crimped-wired beeswax foundation.

Bottom board. Solid or screened? Seems as though screened serves the purpose of cleaning and mite detection.

Does this sound realistic for a beginner?

Thanks!
Matt

[randydrivesabus]

Look into Brushy Mountain Bee Farm, they're offering free shipping on the east coast to Bee Culture and ABJ magazine subscribers for the holiday season. If you can get your hands on a Dec. issue of one of those magazines that would be a great deal!

if you just go their website the free shipping is available to everyone, not just magazine subscribers.

[kirk-o]

I got started in 1970 I purchased a package of Midnight Bees from Montgomery Ward Farm Catalog.
Keeping bees was easier then
kirkobeeo

[indypartridge]

Hi Matt,

Welcome to beekeeping. I always recommend the same thing: get involved with a local beekeeping group:
http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org/association_map.htm
I'd also suggest taking a beekeeping class:
http://www.virginiabeekeepers.org/events.htm

While online forums such as Beesource are great sources of info, much of beekeeping is local. I'm sure that there are beeks in clubs near you that would be happy to mentor you. Even decisions such as where to buy equipment often have 'local' answers. I buy nearly everything (from bees to hardware) from a local beekeeper who's a distributor for Kelley and Mann Lake.

[Matt Guyrd]

Good morning, IndyPartridge...thanks for the response. This is good advice that I have acted on in the last week. I am scheduled for the local club's class in February and will be officially joining the club as a member this week.

Thanks again!
Matt

[NeilV]

As to your specific questions, you are delving into the realm where people have lots of different opinions.

I started out last year, and I had some of the exact questions you now have. Here's what I've figured out from beekeeping and reading over the last year.

My short answer to your questions is that everything you suggested (crimp-wired large cell foundation, wedge top bars, grooved bottom bars) works just fine, either for a beginner or an experienced beekeepers. Many, many beekeepers use exactly those things. I would get screened bottom boards, for ventilation an varroa control. I think that screened bottom boards are a no brainer, actually.

The long answer to your question about foundation and frames is that you need to decide what you want to use for foundation first.

The first choice is whether to use foundation at all. I've not tried this yet, but probably will try it out soon. Some people use "natural cell," which means that they let the bees build comb with just a starter strip (a small piece of wood or foundation) at the top of the frame to get them started. You can wire the frames or not. If you do not wire, then you need to be careful, as the frames have less support that with wired wax or plastic. The advantages to this are that it is cheap and easy and bees build what they want. The potential downside is that bees may not build straight comb, and you would need to monitor that and remove the crooked stuff to make them start over. Also, you probably get more drones, which some people say is a bad thing (they eat honey but don't make any). Some people report that they tend to build smaller cells in the brood area, which has the real or imagined benefits of small cell foudation, discussed below.

If you use foundation, then the major choice is between wax or plastic. The upside to plastic is its cheap and easy. The downside is that bees like wax better. I've never used plastic, but I think studies support the idea that they draw comb faster on wax. However, lots of beekeepers use plastic foundation and love it. The people in my area who mentored me think "Plastic does not belong in a beehive," which is probably why I've not tried it. But I met a couple of very experience beeks from the other side of my state, and they think plastic foundation is the best thing since sliced bread. They think people who use wax are wasting time and money. Also, once they draw the comb, the plastic is at least as good as the wax. Once drawn out, it's arguably better than wax in that its probably sturdier, and on most kinds you could scrape off damaged parts (as might happen from wax moth larvae) and let them rebuild. If you want to use plastic, check out Mann Lake frames that are all one piece. The frame and foundation are one unit, so its about as easy as it can be, and the price is good too. The two old-timers I talked to like it.

If you use wax foundation, then you need to get wood frames with a wedge top bar and a grooved bottom bar, which is what you say you plan to use.

You need to decide whether to use crimp wired or not. Basically, I'd just go for the crimp-wired, since its sturdier and only costs a little more. I have heard varying opinions on whether also you need to cross-wire it. I have used crimp-wired and cross-wired it, but some people say that's overkill. If you want to make comb honey, they make thinner, unwired foundation for that, or you could go foundationless for the supers where you want to make comb honey (see above).

The only other choice if you use wax foundation is whether to use small cell or large cell. If you really want to get people going, start a thread on that subject and watch the fur fly. I don't want to start a debate on small cell (been there, done that) but I will summarize what people would probably say. First, the idea of small cell is that it is a varroa control method. The idea is that the smaller cells shorten the time that larvae/pupae are capped, and varroa develop in that time. If you want to read about small cell from somebody who likes it, check out Michael Bush's webpage. He has lots of good info about lots of other topics that you should read, including going foundaionless.

The potential advantage to small cell is that, if it works, it provides a chemical-free way to keep varroa at bay. Problem is, nobody really knows if it works or not. People who use small cell report that it does work. Some others say not so much. A study that I think is still going at the University of GA indicates that it does not really reduce varroa levels. Some people think the study is either flawed or incomplete at this stage, based on their own experience with small cell use. One possibility is that small cell beekeepers, by not using chemicals, have just bred better bees. That possibility is bolstered, IMO, by the UGA study and recent reports that at least some beekeepers on large cell have stopped treating for varroa and they also do not have problems.

There are two downsides to small cell. First, the foundation costs a little more, which is not a big deal, if it works. Of more importance, if you start with large cell bees, they have to be regressed. In other words, large cell bees, which are physically bigger, want to make bigger cells. If you use small cell foundation, then you may need to go through one or two generations of bees to get them down to actually being small cell bees. That's not a good project for a brand new beekeeper. If you want to go the small cell route, you should try to buy bees from a small cell beekeeper.

So, I hope that did not make too many folks mad or get you too confused.

As a final note, what I did my first year was use SC foundation and buy SC bees. I have virtually no varroa mites in my hive, but they were slow to build up.

What I would recommend for somebody starting out is to use wax foundation (either SC or LC) and learn to put it all together and wire the frames too, just so you'll know how to do it. Whether or not you use small cell foundation, try to buy your bees from a source that does not treat with chemicals, whether they are actually a "small cell beekeeper" or not. Some people that I have read fit the bill are Bjorn, Michael Bush (who I think at least sells queens, not sure on Nucs), Fat/Beeman on here and one of the Weaver companies out of Texas (I think B. Weaver). There are others that I have not mentioned. If you go with small cell foundation, then, as a beginner, I really think that you need to to get some small cell bees, to avoid the regression process right off the bat.

A final option would be to get some swarms, either caught yourself or with the help of an experienced beekeeper. I have not done that, but hope to get a swarm or two next spring. One thing that I hear over and over again from other beekeepers is how much they like the bees that come from swarms, which they say tend to be the most productive.

[Matt Guyrd]

ndvan...thank you! I appreciate your well-written, informative post regarding your thoughts and experiences. I read with great interest from start to finish. This kind of effort is what really makes forums such as BeeSource flourish. I can only hope to contribute and communicate my experiences as time progresses in similar manner.

Taking advantage of Brushy Mt's free shipping, I have placed an order for a couple of hives, WTB and GBB frames, screened BB, and other equipment (smoker, hive tool, etc). I have opted to hold off on the foundation until I further investigate my options( wax vs plastic, small cell vs large cell), but I will likely take the advice to start with the crimp-wired wax foundation. At this point, I anticipate ordering package bees through my club...not knowing the type of bee, including size, makes me hesitant about ordering foundation too soon.

Thanks for the brief foundation tutorial with pros\cons. I needed the "natural cell" clarification. I assumed it was a type of foundation one purchases, but see it is, indeed, natural comb (if I am using the terminology correctly). Natural cell sounds interesting, but I will hold off for now.

Thanks again!
Matt

[NeilV]

Glad to have helped, but remember that I'm only one year into this and may not know what I'm talking about.

I would again stress the advice to locate a bee supplier that does not treat with chemicals, if at all possible. I think that those bees are likely to be better, and, over the long haul, that's the future of beekeeping that hobbiest need to support.

Just my 2 cents, which you are certainly free to ignore.

ndvan