Interesting Observation on Establishing Nucs in Light of Randy Oliver Fat Bee article

[BerkeyDavid]

I rec'd 3 open mated Queens from Bjorn Bee last month. I put each of them in a five frame medium nuc with 3 frames of sealed brood, adhering bees, and frames of honey and pollen.

I moved two of the nucs to the spot where I got the donor brood, moving the donor hive over on the pallet right next to the nuc, in the hope that field bees might return to the nuc to help it get going.

The third nuc was started in a new spot about 10feet from the donor hive.

All of the queens were out and laying within 3 days, good brood patterns, all healthy.

The hives were expanded to 10 frames on screened bottom boards after 2 weeks because they were so strong.

After 4 weeks they were checked again. Here is what I found to be interesting. The two nucs that were switched with the donor hives had lots of stored pollen ringing the brood nest, 5 frames of brood, and good stores.

The nuc that did not get the switcharoo had very little pollen and lots of brood, almost 9 frames of brood, with little capped honey and not much nectar.

Conclusions? It seems that the hive with all the brood is desperate for workers / field workers and is willing to sacrifice short lived "skinny" bees for a field force that can gather the needed nectar and pollen stores, while the bees with adequate field forces are focusing on fat bees with ample stores.

[MountainCamp]

Not having read the article, I can't comment on it.

I am going to assume that all of the colonies were set up the same, except for placement.

My concusion is not that they have sacrificed anything in favor of something else. It is just the make up of the hive and what jobs and functions can and are performed.

The (2) colonies that had been placed where an established colony was, had a automatic field force that was already bringing nectar and pollen to the hive. They used a larger percentage of the available space to store this. Hence, there is a smaller percentage of the 10 frames for brood rearing.

The colony that was place in a new spot, did not have as large a field force, hence they have less in coming nectar and pollen. Therefore a smaller percentage of the space is taken up by stores and is open for brood rearing. They have enough nectar and pollen coming in, as there is still an excess to what is being used, because they have stored some.

Worker job function being age related, and in many cases somewhat dependant, plays a major role in the observations.

What was the entrance activity like on all (3) hives?

Adding a second box with it's additional space for brood rearing would have very likely shown the (2) colonies with as much brood and still more stores.

Colony #3 may very well over take the other (2) in honey production due to the larger brood population, when the additional space is added. The (2) colonies with more stores and less brood will have a smaller field force down the road, due to die off of the older bees. There will also be fewer house and nurse bees. While the colony with all of the brood now will have a much larger field force in a few weeks and still have a larger house / nurse bee population to take care of a larger brood population.

Just another view of the same picture.

[Mitch]

Dave I did not read the article either

One other thing could be possible to the queen in hive 3 could just be a better layer.

I do agree with mountancamp about the 2 hives with the instant work force.If you were watching the traffic on all 3 hives Hive 3 had lees than 1 & 2.But the bees were just as busy just doing different things.

I notice the same thing with some of the splits i did this year the half on the origanal stand had more pollen.I think it gives the queen less room to lay.In the long run the hives with more brood blew past the hives with more pollen stores early on.

Bob

[FordGuy]

where is this article?

[notaclue]

August 2007 American Bee Journal, part 1 of two parts, page 714. There's also an article in August 2007 Bee Culture about nutrition. Don't have the magazine with me so I can't get you more than that. Sorry.

[FordGuy]

I guess I need to subscribe!!! woudl love to read that.

[BerkeyDavid]

The articles were similar in both ABJ and BC, very interesting stuff. They basically say that you want fat bees, and that they get that way from pollen. The fat nurse bees will have high levels of vitegellin in them. Vitegellin is important because it makes the bees live longer. And bees with high levels of vitegellin are better nurse bees.

So when I noticed that the box with fewer field bees (#3) had less pollen I was concerned, after reading the article, that because this hive had low stores of pollen the nurse bees that hatch would have low levels of Vitegellin.

Field bees have low levels of vitegellin too. So I was thinking that the queen laid wall to wall to get a bigger field force so that the field force could then acquire the necessary pollen to provide the vitegellin.

In other words, the next generation of bees in hive #3 will have shorter lives, fewer and lower quality nurse bees, and more field bees. But hopefully in generation #3 there will be more pollen available and therefore I will have fat bees. You want fat bees so that they will do a good job raising bees with high levels of vitegellin to get through the winter.

Yes there were pretty much the same levels of activity, although I didn't make a real good study.

Hive 1 was started with brood from a Wilbanks Italian Q package, and had the same pollen and pattern levels as Hive 2, which was my "Top Bar Mother Hive" from which I have made a number of splits and some grafts. Hive 3 was an early June swarm hive that was a sister hive to the TBH. Hives 2 and 3 are basically survivor mutt Italian / carni / ? that make up most of my stock.

Well I think I will add a box to all three now and see what happens.

[Michael Bush]

Maybe they burned up all their pollen rearing the brood.

[shoefly]

The article about fat bees and the importance of vitellogenin was fascinating indeed. It confirmed a lot of hunches that I had about the importance of good and abundant pollen sources in the fall. Interesting is that vitellogenin not only acts as a source of proteins, lipids and sugars but also as a regulating hormone that is in a control loop with the juvenile hormone. Therefore vitellogenin and juvenile hormone regulates how fast the bees will go through the life stages to become foragers in the final stage of life.

As a practical conclusion: Bring your bees to a good pollen source before they go into winter. A good pollen source can give you longer living and possibly healthier bees.

[naturebee]

As a practical conclusion: Bring your bees to a good pollen source before they go into winter. A good pollen source can give you longer living and possibly healthier bees.

Great comment Shoefly!

The more natural source the better!

If I may add, bees do fatten up naturally in the fall for over wintering.

But, remember that feeding pollen patties as some suggest aids in the survival of stock that are poor pollen foragers that would otherwise be naturally culled from your operation. Have we not learned from the lack of AFB in our bees genetics from using antibiotics? And the difficulty in breeding varroa resistant strains caused by the use of pesticides which in both instances allow nonresistant strains to survive?

The best way to get fat bees is probably to add ‘pollen gathering abilities’ it to your selective criteria. This is very simple to select for! Anything else is a ‘stop gap’ measure and promotes dependence.

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
FeralBeeProject.com

[Keith Jarrett]

>>Anything else is a ‘stop gap’ measure and promotes dependence.

I think it would promote cave man era. Think food prices and standard of living is high now!

I think one can take a small number of hives for "stock" and run the rest for PRODUCTION by what ever means.

[naturebee]

I think it would promote cave man era. Think food prices and standard of living is high now!

I think one can take a small number of hives for "stock" and run the rest for PRODUCTION by what ever means.

Production “by what ever means”?
Whatever do you mean by that?? ;)

That’s the trouble, production hives are your “stock”. ’by whatever means, means you may be sacrificing the promotion of good stock (that will pay back for years to come). ‘What ever means’ may help a person NOW, but I don’t think sacrificing good breeding practices will help anybody feed their family for the long term.

Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
FeralBeeProject.com

[Keith Jarrett]

Joe wrote,
>Production “by what ever means”?
Whatever do you mean by that??

Production, ie, the most out of a hive , syrup, tylan, miticide, pollen sub ect... what ever it takes.


>That’s the trouble, production hives are your “stock”.

No, every hive is a production hive.


>by whatever means, means you may be sacrificing the promotion of good stock

Nobody here is suggesting that.


Keith

[shoefly]

I agree with Joe but wouldn't want to drive the better bee genetics argument too far. If I understood Randy Oliver's article correctly, the "fatness" of the bees, at least partially drives if the foragers are going for nectar or pollen independent from their genetics.

Yes, you can breed a bee that can survive in an environment with less then ideal fall pollen forage, but I as a beekeeper would rather give them the best possible environment to strive in, then try to adapt their genes to a less suitable environment. Depending on where your apiary is located and if you are mobile with your bees, the environment plays an important role.

My experience with pollen patties hasn't been that great and I would not rely on the current offerings of pollen patties to have the best combination of nutrients. I believe a diverse and abundant source of pollen forage is important especially in the fall. It gives you fat bees, and fat means in this context, with the right combination of protein, lipids and sugars to endure frost and have a long life.

It is not specifically stated in the article but I wouldn't be surprised to find that swarming bees are very fat bees as well. It would explain their amazing ability to build up a new nest so fast.

[naturebee]

… If I understood Randy Oliver's article correctly, the "fatness" of the bees, at least partially drives if the foragers are going for nectar or pollen independent from their genetics.

This is true! Location does matter.
But within an apiary at any location, there will be genetics that ’outperform’ in the area of pollen foraging. This can be illustrated in the Russians tremendous pollen gathering abilities outperforming Italians, BUT the same is true ’within races’, some will be better than others, selecting these will payback in the long term with bees suited for you environment.


… but I as a beekeeper would rather give them the best possible environment to strive in, then try to adapt their genes to a less suitable environment.

Agree! But in many locations beekeepers have no choice in the environments they live in, they MUST select for bees that can thrive in their environment for that is ALL they have.


Joe Waggle ~ Derry, PA
‘Bees Gone Wild Apiaries'
FeralBeeProject.com