Africanized bee Question and Comment...

[Scut Farkas]

1st the question - Has Colony Collapse Disorder slowed the advance of AHB's? Were they as subsceptible to the disorder as europeans? Saw a thing on National Geographic that noted the following. A queen (African or European) mated with european drones (exclusively) will produce gentle european style bees. If just 25% of her drones are African, then her brood will be defensive africanized bees. The point being, the hyper defensive characteristic of AHB's is passed genetically by the drones. Some apiary's are flooding their yards with european drones in an effort to prevent AHB's taking over their hives. Of course, Africanized queens emerging a day early insures they'll take over any hive they get into. Think twice before you trash drone brood! :eek:

Now the comment. I think it makes sense to have your queens marked 100% of the time if you are in an area that has or could get AHB's into the hive. On the show they opened up the hives and if the queen was not marked, then they killed her - thinking the unmarked queen as an African invader.

[Michael Bush]

>Think twice before you trash drone brood!

If you care about the genetics of your bees you should always consider that drones that are from the source you want are a GOOD thing.

[George Fergusson]

Now the comment. I think it makes sense to have your queens marked 100% of the time if you are in an area that has or could get AHB's into the hive.

That makes perfect sense and is generally recommended in literature I've read about beekeeping in areas experiencing africanization.

As to whether africanized bees have been troubled by CCD, I haven't heard any reports of it and I'd personally be surprised if they were, but I've been wrong before.

[tecumseh]

scut sezs:
If just 25% of her drones are African, then her brood will be defensive africanized bees. The point being, the hyper defensive characteristic of AHB's is passed genetically by the drones.

tecumseh replies:
I think???? you have missed a bit of detail... but of course I didn't see the show myself. this number would suggest that 1 in 4 of her mating flights would have been with an africanized drone. Since the sperm stored by the queen is not likely to be homoginized the hive is likely to be very defensive 1/4 of the time and gentle as lambs (well not really) 3/4 of the time.

[dickm]

Actually, the AHB sperm in the spermatheca somehow gets preference and she will produce AHB offspring anyway. (Dave Tarpy, EAS '07)

dickm

[Joseph Clemens]

Sounds like some beekeepers may be "shooting themselves in the feet". Since AHB are "said" to be persistently pervasive (with many reproductive advantages), then, despite how difficult it may be to breed the heat and other undesirable traits out of them, summarily destroying, even those that behave in an acceptable manner, sounds self-defeating. If the purpose would be to eventually eliminate the AHB characteristics, wouldn't it be better to keep all bees that do not exhibit these undesirable characteristics?

Consensus is that AHB are here to stay, perhaps if we make a concerted and extended effort and begin selecting them for desirable characteristics, eventually that pressure could produce a more desirable AHB than the "Killer Bee". Maybe it would take a hundred years, maybe it could happen sooner. Since some of their reported characteristics are so overwhelmingly advantageous to their survival, it seems unlikely that we will ever eliminate them, but if we started putting selection pressure on them, and the ones under pressure retain some of their survival characteristics to help them spread their, now somewhat less offensive traits, perhaps it won't take a thousand years to have a better AHB.

I don't mean not to kill queens from HOT hives, but please don't kill them if they're gentle.

I presently have 16, very strong colonies, only 2 have been requeened with gentle Cordovan Italian stock, the remaining are, some say, AHB. This year I have been working them in shorts and short sleeved T-shirt, with very little smoke (makes it easier to find the queens), sometimes even without a veil (crazy me) and I've had very few stings and not a single "hot stinging incident".

[Scut Farkas]

scut sezs:
If just 25% of her drones are African, then her brood will be defensive africanized bees. The point being, the hyper defensive characteristic of AHB's is passed genetically by the drones.

tecumseh replies:
I think???? you have missed a bit of detail... but of course I didn't see the show myself. this number would suggest that 1 in 4 of her mating flights would have been with an africanized drone. Since the sperm stored by the queen is not likely to be homoginized the hive is likely to be very defensive 1/4 of the time and gentle as lambs (well not really) 3/4 of the time.

No - no detail missed. That was the surprising part of the findings. What you say makes common sense, but it does not reflect the reality of what happens when scientest test. The AHB sperm will win out in 100% of the brood, even if it is only 25% of the sperm the Queen has.

Understand the value of having an overwhelming number of European drones. The commercial beek they interviewed (in an area of California that is over-run by AHB) was flooding his apirary with european drones in an effort to retain gentle bees.

[tecumseh]

dickm replies:
the AHB sperm in the spermatheca somehow gets preference and she will produce AHB offspring anyway. (Dave Tarpy, EAS '07)

then scut farkas adds:
The AHB sperm will win out in 100% of the brood, even if it is only 25% of the sperm the Queen has.

tecumseh inquires:
my understanding??? of genetics is trying to compose a mechinism to make this come together...very curious indeed. throw me a line there mate, I may need some help on this one.

is it suggesting that the european sperm become nonviable or genetic characteristics are translocating? is there some simple way of looking at the Tarpy paper?

[Jeffrey Todd]

Joseph, if your bees are as you describe, I think it would be a good idea to send a sample from each colony for identification. If you DO have gentle AHB, then you will KNOW it and can try to propagate them. I currently have a recently acquired AHB colony (positively ID'd) that is workable but only with LOTS of smoke (one hand keeps the smoker, the other the frame grip or hive tool). This hive is too defensive to allow to continue in its present form and I will soon either destroy or requeen it - a very difficult task as the moment I open the hive the bees start running every which way and end up clustering under the BB and other places.
But it would be very interesting to see if your nice bees were also AHB, or at least to what extent they have AHB genes.
Thanks,

Jeffrey

[mgmoore7]

I am in FL and the Africanized bees are now being found on a regular basis. My yearly state inpsection and registration was last week.

I was presented with a voluntary sign up for the Africanized Bee management program. I was happy to volunteer as I surely don't mind doing my part to help with this issue and I will get a statement from the state that I don't have Africanized bees (or if I do, they will let me know and request that I requeen immediately). He took a jar of bees for testing and I signed a statement of guidelines. I don't have it in front of me but the major point is to make sure you have a marked queen from a registered queen breeder. If I don't use marked queens or the queen is superceded, etc. I need to requeen every 6 months. As long as I have a marked queen from a registered queen breeder, there is no requirement to requeen. Also, any caught swarms need to be requeened immediately.

I asked him how often they are finding Africanized Bees and he said "alot". I don't know exactly what that means but the tone in his voice was alarming. Of course this is not good news for FL or the US.... It appears that a significant part of their job is educating the public and beeks about Africanized bees.

[Joseph Clemens]

Certainly sounds like Florida is making beekeeping a more expensive hobby/avocation. Is there anywhere, besides Hawaii that can assure their queens "can't" mate with AHB drones? How do you find queens in the off season in order to comply with this requirement?

After all, in light of this research -- http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/rf/pilot/index.html, the least defensive bees are AHB queens mated with EHB drones. Perhaps my possibly AHB hives have queens that are mated with a high percentage of EHB drones. They are certainly not as docile as the colonies headed by my Italian Cordovan queens. But, they are certainly not as defensive as AHB are reported to be. For my $$ the surest way to be certain my bees are as pure EHB as possible is to have Cordovan Italian queens that produce all Cordovan Italian workers. If a queen shows herself (by coloration) to be Cordovan Italian, all her drones will be Cordovan Italian too. This color trait is recessive, so if a Cordovan Italian queen produces all Cordovan Italian workers/queens, then she is mated only with Cordovan Italian drones, if she produces workers/queens of any other color, she may have mated with AHB drones, if they are in the area of her mating.

I will see if I can take some samples for analysis to the Carl Hayden Bee Lab, the next time I go to town (a few days from now). It sounds like a good idea to have a better understanding of my own hives.
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Wow, makes me glad that I am located in Arizona. Here in Arizona we have much less regulation concerning beekeeping and every local beekeeper I've met, prefer keeping bees in their own ways. One even proclaims to be keeping, "Killer Bees" and selling, "Killer Bee Honey". If anyone were keeping overly defensive bees in any area of human habitation where the bees were found to be interfering with human health or wellbeing, those bees would be dealt with accordingly, but there is no "Big Brother" dictating how we must accomplish this, unless we fail to do so.

[Joseph Clemens]

Moved to its own thread in the queen breeding section.