sugar dusting and my mite count. Please help...

[hummingberd]

Hi everyone, thanks for reading!

So I got my bees from a local beekeeper in August of 2006. I am a new beekeeper, and I just couldn't decide what to use as a treatment, and I didn't treat for varroa. I know, I know! I didn't have a screened bottom board. When I bought my equipment, it was suggested that it wasn't neccessary and I would be wasting my money. So, up until now I have no idea what my mite levels are. To date I have not seen any bees with deformed wings. I did find lots of dead bees on the bottom board that have shrunken abdomen. I have NOT seen these bees with small abdomen inside the hive. All bees I have seen have healthy wings and abdomen.
I purchased a country rubes bottom board, and decided that I must have a mite problem, so I put the board under the hive, smeared the plastic with crisco and did a powdered sugar dusting. My first 24 hr mite count was 208. 24 hours later it was 9. I have no idea what the natural mite drop count is because I didn't want to wait to get one. I wanted to do something. Any thoughts on this crazy scenario? Think I have a mite problem? I have to go into the hive tomorrow cuz I have 2 deeps, and not a lot of bees. I'm going to move everything into one deep to make the bees more comfortable (hopefully.) Should I do another dusting with powdered sugar? I did one on Wednesday.

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks so much everyone!

-K-

[2rubes]

I don't think 200ish mites in powdered sugar and 9 in the next 24 hours is a really bad infestation, but I would do another dusting after a 24 hour count. I would clean your board and recoat it, then leave it in for 3 days and count the mites. Then you could do another dusting, it will not hurt your bees. I'm guessing you have capped brood, so mites would be in there. No DWV, that's great, another sign of not a bad problem. If you dust your hives 3 times, 7 days apart, you'll get most of the mites.
Drone brood traps are great. I just took a set out of each of our hives. I have some that are from medium frames in deep brood chambers, so I just slice it off the comb from the bottom of the frame and put it back in (top brood box, 3 or 4 frame in). I opened them up and fed the larve to the chickens while looking for mites. There were some, not a lot, maybe a cell out of 20 to 30. i had to wait 3 weeks 3 days to pull the drone brood, I had one strip that was just beginning to hatch out.
Janet

[bluegrass]

I put the sticky board under and and do a count an hour after I dust them....mine generally run in the low teens. I would leave the board in and do a few natural drop counts and see what your #s are after 24, 48, and 72 hours. The 200+ count even after a dusting sounds high, but the second count makes me think you got most of them.(bet those bees feel great right now:))....That bottom board will work wonders on your mite population though.

[George Fergusson]

Well as my old boss used to day, "Do the math".

Randy Oliver did a sugar dusting on a small hive, counted the mites, then killed all the bees and did an alcohol wash. From the "Randy Oliver's 8 second powdered sugar" thread:


I sacrificed one 4-frame collapsing colony to determine the efficacy of my method. In one hour, 34% of the phoretic mites dropped to the sticky board. I sacrificed the bees at that time, and washed all the mites off them. If I had allowed the dusting effects to continue, previous research indicates that mite drop would have been even greater.

For those of you who wish to review that thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200973

So, assuming Hummingberd's 208 mites represented 34% of the phoretic mites in the hive then there could have been 612 phoretic mites in the hive. Assuming that 2/3 of the mites in the hive were in capped brood at the time then 612 phoretic mites represent only 1/3 the total mite population which could be 1835 mites.

So let's review our assumptions. Randy figured 34% of the phoretic mites dropped after 1 hour and it's likely safe to assume that if he'd waited longer, then more mites would have fallen. How many more? I don't know. Let's be optimistic and say 50% would have dropped if he'd waited 24 hours.Then Hummingberd phoretic population would be 416 mites and the total population would be 3 times that or 1248 mites. Less than the original figure, but still worisome.

Now the 9 mites dropping the next day. Given a brooding hive I'd normally say that drop corresponds to a total population of around 360 mites (9 x 40), but this isn't a normal situation- something more than 34% of the phoretic mites were removed the previous day- this would obviously impact "natural" drop. We can adjust our multiplier to account for the smaller phoretic contribution to drop by guessing wildly. What's a good number? Phoretic mites really don't contribute much to natural drop so the reduction in phoretic mites in the hive at any given instant is not going to have that big an impact on drop as we'd like to think. Let's be optimistic again- if your going to estimate mite populations, why not over-estimate and be safe? Let's use a multiplier of 80. That gives us a total mite population of 720.

So based on the 208 sugar enhanced drop the population could be between 1200 and 1800 mites. Using the 9 mites dropping the next day we're thinking more like 360 to 720. I tend to not trust the 9 mite count and the multiplier as much as I do the 208 mite sugar enhanced drop. Assuming the efficacy of her treatment is comparable to what Randy Oliver obtained, then I place more faith in the 1200-1800 figure, and it's the conservative thing to do. Variables such as total bee population and the amount of brood in the hive contribute to uncertainty. In any case, I'd suggest Hummingberd has a mite problem given that it's only late April, in Maine.

[bluegrass]

I'd suggest Hummingberd has a mite problem given that it's only late April in Maine.
Isn't it late April everywhere?[coffee]

Good post George, I think that pretty much covers it.

[George Fergusson]

Isn't it late April everywhere?

Good point :)

What I meant was, here in Maine, spring is just beginning. The weather here in March and April- up until 3 days ago- was pretty cold. I went from long johns to shorts literally over night. Sorry.. too much information?

So early March was the coldest weather we had all winter and we received more snow in April than in the whole rest of the winter. Our bees are behind in their build up. Normally they'd have begun rearing brood in late February, and perhaps many did, but they haven't really started cranking yet.

Down south where bees have been brooding up for 3 months or more and swarms have been flying for weeks, I'd not be surprised to find hives with high, or relatively high mite loads. For a small hive to have a mite load like Hummingberd's does, here in Maine this time of year does not bode well for it's survival. Those mites had to have been carried through the winter from last fall. With care and attention, her hive will survive. Probably.

[2rubes]

Great numbers George. Still very manageable based on what we went through. Hummingberd’s hive should be fine with a few more treatments of powdered sugar, just keep knocking them down. Sounds like you would be a bit early for drone brood management, but most of the mites would be phoretic and that is the best time. A few powdered sugar dustings now will catch so many more mites than later.
Our first year of sugar dusting, we were getting huge numbers of mites in powdered sugar, in the 1000’s and we did have deformed wings. We didn’t loose a hive.
That was early March 05, so coming out of winter, but here in California we get warm weather in the winter followed by wet and cold. We most likely were building up; we usually do unless we have one of those really cold springs. I didn’t know at the time to look for brood or even the word ‘phoretic. We were looking at huge amount of mites, and we were worried. We started dusting intensively, 3 times 5 to 7 days apart about every 6 to 8 weeks, dodging our honey flows. And then 3 times in late August (we pulled supers early we were so worried) , and about once every 6 to 8 weeks through the winter.
Last year, going into spring, we had so many less mites, about 200 to 400 hundred in the sugar in early spring. We learned to tolerate higher mite counts, and continued to dust in 3 treatments during the spring and summer spaced between our flows and once a month in the winter. The very cool thing about last year, we were able to go through the entire thistle flow into September, where before in mid-August, we were pulling our supers early to treat due to high varroa counts on our sticky boards.
This spring, a whole different story, hardly any mites. When we dust, if we get 100 mites in the sugar, we will redust, but most of the mites in the sugar have been under 25, and I’ve only dusting once in each series. (We did a dusting about once a month each winter month). We are taking a ‘treat when we see a problem’ this year. Randy said during one of his talks, he uses powdered sugar as an ‘amplified sticky’ when his mites are phoretic, meaning he’s using powdered sugar dusting and that’s his mite count to see the health of his hive. He said a 24 hour drop when there’s no brood is not accurate as the mites are not dropping out of cells, but clinging tightly to the bees. Randy is not counting the mites in the sugar anymore either, he looks to see if the sugar is black with mites, a moderate amount (which would be in the 100’s) or if he has a few. And hitting them with powdered sugar a few times before the bees start brooding up will knock down most of the mites.
Our last dusting was about 2 weeks ago, when our raspberries started to bud. We had so few mites; we didn’t do any further treatments. The next opportunity is after blackberry flow and thistle which is around mid June and that’s the more critical time to do a thorough dust, we would probably do the 3 part treatment. That will allow us to keep those supers on longer without worrying about mite damage in the fall.
Hope this all make sense.
Janet

[George Fergusson]

Great numbers George. Still very manageable based on what we went through. Hummingberd’s hive should be fine with a few more treatments of powdered sugar, just keep knocking them down. Sounds like you would be a bit early for drone brood management, but most of the mites would be phoretic and that is the best time. A few powdered sugar dustings now will catch so many more mites than later.

Actually, it turns out that her hive is broodless, which of course changes the numbers big time. She'll have removed a significant portion of the total mites in the hive. It should be OK. I suspect the 9 mites was mostly residual drop from the sugar treatment.

I've talked to someone else here in Maine that has broodless hives. I attribute this to the weather we've had. The bees have likely been in "winter" brood rearing mode- lay some eggs, wait for them to emerge, then lay some more. With the weather we're having now, they should all be getting down to wholesale brood rearing quickly.

[hummingberd]

Actually, it turns out that her hive is broodless, which of course changes the numbers big time.
I've talked to someone else here in Maine that has broodless hives. I attribute this to the weather we've had.


Well George, I have to say I'm glad to have read that! Makes me breathe a little easier! So, my count yesterday (sunday) approximately 9 hours after a sugar dusting, was 37. It's true my hive is broodless. Which is a great time to treat cuz it will get those little buggers before they can sneak into the cells with capped brood. George thanks for doing all that math! I really appreciate it. I hate math, and you seem so good at it :D I had to read your post about 3 times, and finally my head stopped spinning. I'm going to do another count this evening around 7 or 8 pm because I know the board will be caked w/ sugar if I don't. I'll let everyone know what the numbers are. Thanks again for posting. I really appreciate it!

-K-

[spunky]

Great numbers George. Still very manageable based on what we went through. Hummingberd’s hive should be fine with a few more treatments of powdered sugar, just keep knocking them down. Sounds like you would be a bit early for drone brood management, but most of the mites would be phoretic and that is the best time. A few powdered sugar dustings now will catch so many more mites than later.
Our first year of sugar dusting, we were getting huge numbers of mites in powdered sugar, in the 1000’s and we did have deformed wings. We didn’t loose a hive.
That was early March 05, so coming out of winter, but here in California we get warm weather in the winter followed by wet and cold. We most likely were building up; we usually do unless we have one of those really cold springs. I didn’t know at the time to look for brood or even the word ‘phoretic. We were looking at huge amount of mites, and we were worried. We started dusting intensively, 3 times 5 to 7 days apart about every 6 to 8 weeks, dodging our honey flows. And then 3 times in late August (we pulled supers early we were so worried) , and about once every 6 to 8 weeks through the winter.
Last year, going into spring, we had so many less mites, about 200 to 400 hundred in the sugar in early spring. We learned to tolerate higher mite counts, and continued to dust in 3 treatments during the spring and summer spaced between our flows and once a month in the winter. The very cool thing about last year, we were able to go through the entire thistle flow into September, where before in mid-August, we were pulling our supers early to treat due to high varroa counts on our sticky boards.
This spring, a whole different story, hardly any mites. When we dust, if we get 100 mites in the sugar, we will redust, but most of the mites in the sugar have been under 25, and I’ve only dusting once in each series. (We did a dusting about once a month each winter month). We are taking a ‘treat when we see a problem’ this year. Randy said during one of his talks, he uses powdered sugar as an ‘amplified sticky’ when his mites are phoretic, meaning he’s using powdered sugar dusting and that’s his mite count to see the health of his hive. He said a 24 hour drop when there’s no brood is not accurate as the mites are not dropping out of cells, but clinging tightly to the bees. Randy is not counting the mites in the sugar anymore either, he looks to see if the sugar is black with mites, a moderate amount (which would be in the 100’s) or if he has a few. And hitting them with powdered sugar a few times before the bees start brooding up will knock down most of the mites.
Our last dusting was about 2 weeks ago, when our raspberries started to bud. We had so few mites; we didn’t do any further treatments. The next opportunity is after blackberry flow and thistle which is around mid June and that’s the more critical time to do a thorough dust, we would probably do the 3 part treatment. That will allow us to keep those supers on longer without worrying about mite damage in the fall.
Hope this all make sense.
Janet


2rubes;

Why are you worried about flow timing with powered sugar ??? Just curious ??

Regards

[George Fergusson]

Well George, I have to say I'm glad to have read that! Makes me breathe a little easier! So, my count yesterday (sunday) approximately 9 hours after a sugar dusting, was 37.

I think you've removed a goodly percentage of the mites in your hive.


It's true my hive is broodless. Which is a great time to treat cuz it will get those little buggers before they can sneak into the cells with capped brood. George thanks for doing all that math! I really appreciate it. I hate math, and you seem so good at it :D

I'm not wicked swift at mathematics, but mitematics I enjoy :)

I went through some of my hives today and did some other yard maintenance. I'd characterize about half my hives as WEAK, which doesn't thrill me! They all had brood, some capped but mostly eggs and open brood and not much at that. A week ago I'd probably have found them broodless.

I usually like to blame society but in this case, I blame the weather.

On a bright note, my 4 frame nuc is now a 5 frame nuc and it looks stronger than some of my 2 deep hives. Likewise, my 2 single deep hives are looking real strong. The smaller the hive, the better they're doing. Wassup with that?

On a sad note, my dud didn't make it, but then I didn't expect it would. My total winter losses are 3 nucs and one double deep hive. I don't count the two mite-factories given to me in late fall which didn't make it to March.

[hummingberd]

Ok, to update everyone, I did another powdered sugar dusting on Sunday, just cause I was in there. The first dusting was done on Wednesday. The total drop for today was 8 mites. This is 24 hrs after the last count which I did yesterday 9 hrs after I dusted. Does that make sense? Hopefully those nasty little mites are choking on the dust and this will be a huge step in the right direction for the bees. I'm going to re-grease the board now, and I'll update you all tomorrow on my numbers!

-K-

:D

[bluegrass]

I did a dusting yesterday, my counts are on the low 10s after an hour. It was 75 deg. and I still did the rituralistic lighting of the wood stove for them.

[hummingberd]

I did a dusting yesterday, my counts are on the low 10s after an hour. It was 75 deg. and I still did the rituralistic lighting of the wood stove for them.

It's really rewarding isn't it bluegrass? I actually took the opportunity to squish each and every one of the mites while I was counting. It felt really good! :D

[hummingberd]

So, I waited a few days to check my sticky board. The last time I counted was Monday. I did a count last night and the total was 10 mites for 4 days which = 2.5 mites/day. There was still plenty of sugar on the tray, so seems like they're still cleaning sugar off themselves. Or maybe it's coming from the hive parts. So, for now my mite counts are low. That's a good thing!

[George Fergusson]

So, I waited a few days to check my sticky board. The last time I counted was Monday. I did a count last night and the total was 10 mites for 4 days which = 2.5 mites/day. There was still plenty of sugar on the tray, so seems like they're still cleaning sugar off themselves. Or maybe it's coming from the hive parts. So, for now my mite counts are low. That's a good thing!

I think you're pretty much out of the woods for now HB. You've dodged a bullet- or your bees have. Now let `em git it on. Are they looking happier in a smaller box?

BTW, everyone I've talked to in Maine has said their bees are weak this spring.

[hummingberd]

I think you're pretty much out of the woods for now HB. You've dodged a bullet- or your bees have. Now let `em git it on. Are they looking happier in a smaller box?

BTW, everyone I've talked to in Maine has said their bees are weak this spring.

Hey George-

I guess they didn't really seem unhappy in the larger set up, just a little...pathetic. They seem to be doing fine now. Activity is strong outside the hive. Hopefully, the queen is laying thousands of eggs everyday. Ok, maybe not thousands, I'll settle for hundreds :D I'm not planning on checking the hive again till next weekend because I messed with em so much in the past two weeks. If that's a mistake, please let me know your thoughts.
Why do you think people are experiencing weakness in their hives George? I'd be interested to hear some theories. I'm glad to hear that you believe I've dodged the bullet. I was a little scared for a little while. How are your bees doing?

Ok, gotta go back to work. BOO! :(

ttyl

-K-