Cordovan italians

[thomas]

Hello

Does anyone have these bees and are they good honey producers i am thinking of switching over a couple of hive to them and see if they will work better then my carniolans and will i have better control over them swarming.

Tom

[Joseph Clemens]

Tom,
I have been informed that all Cordovan Italian honeybees are not the same. That said, I have had only good experiences with Cordovan Italian queens from http://www.koehnen.com in California.

[IndianaHoney]

I had a Cordovan hive that I tried to overwinter. They ate up all their stores and dwindled down to a small cluster and froze. This happened even though I feed more than three gallons to them in the fall.

That being said, I have a friend that has had good experiences with them, and says they are really gental.

[thomas]

Hello

Yes i deal only with Koehnen & Sons i get all my packages from them i must admit they are very gentle bees even thou my queens are carniolans but i do love to look at them and they seem to work very well i was just thinking because my carniolans do not seem to like to draw out comb in the supers unles i have a frame that had been drawn out.

Tom

[Ross]

I'm seeing Cordovan drones showing up in my hives even though I've never had them or seen them here. I guess somebody has or had a hive nearby.

[Joseph Clemens]

I'm seeing Cordovan drones showing up in my hives even though I've never had them or seen them here. I guess somebody has or had a hive nearby.
Another possibility is that one of your queens is 1/2 Cordovan, which would cause 1/2 of her drones to be Cordovan, though she will never appear Cordovan, herself.

[Michael Bush]

>Does anyone have these bees

I tried some.

> and are they good honey producers

If Italians are brood rearing fools these are brood rearing maniacs. Results are they produce a lot of honey and burn it up rearing and feeding brood. They are a package bee dream. Lots of early bees.

> i am thinking of switching over a couple of hive to them and see if they will work better then my carniolans and will i have better control over them swarming.

IMO swarming isn't a matter of breed but a matter of management.

[Robert Hawkins]

Thomas,

It has become a question of management because bees are supposed to swarm. It's what they do. Our job is to try to keep from losing our bees. We can't just stop swarming altogether. Or breed a non=swarming bee. So we try to find a management style that either keeps the bees in the family or convinces them that it's not yet swarm time.

MB's website will show you how to keep them and Walt Wright's will show you how to fool 'em.

Hawk

[tecumseh]

mr hawkins sezs:
It has become a question of management because bees are supposed to swarm. It's what they do. Our job is to try to keep from losing our bees. We can't just stop swarming altogether. Or breed a non=swarming bee. So we try to find a management style that either keeps the bees in the family or convinces them that it's not yet

tecumseh replies:
it has been suggest by any number of folks much more experienced and smarter than I that we have unintentionally selected (over a fairly long period of time) bees with a high degree of swarming impulse. this does suggest that there is a genetic disposition towards swarming that could be selected away from... so you are quite correct that we cannot stop swarming altogether, although it could become a criterion of selection if bee folks collectively came to consider this quality economically important.

[Walts-son-in-law]

mr hawkins sezs:
tecumseh replies:
it has been suggest by any number of folks much more experienced and smarter than I that we have unintentionally selected (over a fairly long period of time) bees with a high degree of swarming impulse. this does suggest that there is a genetic disposition towards swarming that could be selected away from... so you are quite correct that we cannot stop swarming altogether, although it could become a criterion of selection if bee folks collectively came to consider this quality economically important.

This is from me, not Walt, but is based on what I have learned from him.

Swarming is the way bees reproduce. The only way for bees to increase their overall (total) population is by casting swarms. Reproduction is a basic trait of all organisms. I seriously doubt that you could (or should) try to produce a strain that could not (or would not) reproduce. That would be like trying to get people to stop having babies! Can't be done!

Roy

[beegee]

I bought some "Buckeye Bee" queens a few years ago. I think they must have been cordovans-golden tan, very pretty bees and really productive. I've been thinking about buying some more.

[Aspera]

This is from me, not Walt, but is based on what I have learned from him.

Swarming is the way bees reproduce. The only way for bees to increase their overall (total) population is by casting swarms. Reproduction is a basic trait of all organisms. I seriously doubt that you could (or should) try to produce a strain that could not (or would not) reproduce. That would be like trying to get people to stop having babies! Can't be done!

Roy

That is a far cry from stating (correctly) that some bees have a greater genetic predisposition for swarming. Swarming impulse has a well documented genetic basis. If you don't believe me, I don't blame you, but then take a look at the data for AHB colony size, nesting cavity prefrrences, number of swarm cells produced, and the frequency/timing of swarming for these bees. All of it shows a clear tendency to swarm in some bees. Likewise, Brother Adam who was a careful student of breeding took great pains to state that any increase in queen fecundity is offset by even a small increase in the swarming tendency in a given race of bees. He went so far as to catagorize races of bees in terms of their tendency to swarm.

[Michael Bush]

>It has been suggest by any number of folks much more experienced and smarter than I that we have unintentionally selected (over a fairly long period of time) bees with a high degree of swarming impulse. this does suggest that there is a genetic disposition towards swarming that could be selected away from...

"For years our bee journals have been printing reams of articles on the question of a non-swarming strain of bees. It has always seemed to me there was a lot of time wasted advocating such an improbable accomplishment, because nature would hardly yield to an arrangement that in itself might destroy the species. If accomplished it would be tantamount to breeding the mating instinct out of domestic animals." --P.C. Chadwick ABJ, April 1936 - Page 180

[BjornBee]

I always find it ironic that many beekeepers want to keep things as natural as possible, and yet they fight mother nature tooth and nail.

Nature has shown in studies that a healthy hive will swarm on average, two to three times per year. This balances out the fact that mother nature also culls bees every year. From what I have gathered, 30 to 60% of feral hives die each year for whatever reason. The swarming over many yaers allows a stable replacement to be achieved for the species.

So what do beekeepers do....we want queens to last many years, and we want bees that do not swarm. And many beekeepers do everything in their power to baby a weak hive and do little in regards to culling.

I could type a long thing here about the advantages of swarming (break in brood cycle, colonies with fresh comb, etc) and the advantages of young queens(increase in honey production with a better young queen laying, less swarming the first year compared to a two year queen, etc.)

My swarm management involves a 6 to 8 week period. After the main flow, I don't care about swarming. Hives will be inspected, evaluated, and requeened as needed after the flow and the swarm season is over.

I hear many beekeepers blaming a stock, a breeder, or anything alse, besides themselves once their hives swarm. But many times these are the same beekeepers who don't understand swarming, the reasoning and details of why it happens, and the items you could manage to minimize it.

[tecumseh]

aspera sezs:
That is a far cry from stating (correctly) that some bees have a greater genetic predisposition for swarming. Swarming impulse has a well documented genetic basis.

tecumseh humbly replies:
well aspera at least some folks GOT IT. To jump from this statement or my previous statement about the propensity or tendency to the idea of eliminating some qualities does suggest that some folks might profit from a basic class in genetics.. sheee....

[beegee]

I don't obsess about swarms. I know beekeepers who agonize over swarming, but you still have a box of bees afterward. I love catching swarms, but when my bees swarm, I figure nature will even everything out eventually. Yesterday, my wife came home from school (about 2miles from my house) and said while she had her kids on the playground, a huge swarm of bees flew over. I got all excited and asked where they went and she said she didn't know. I may go scouting this morning.

[Aspera]

So the statements I made above were based on *recent* research by Mark Winston showing an increased tendency to swarm in AHB. I have no intentions of eliminating the mating ability of anything, although this has been successfully done in most commercial turkeys. My point is simply that swarming causes greater productivity losses than all mite put together. I would rather have colonies that do not need endless spring manipulations and cast maybe one swarm a year rather than oh, say, FIVE.