Can You Head-Off a Swarm?

[longarm]

This is in reference to a thread I started the other day re: a particularly large colony I have. It appeared to swarm yesterday.. but then all the bees went back into the hive. Here are a few pics:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209301

In any case, I opened the hive today and found one capped swarm cell, which I removed. Is there any way at this stage to prevent the seeming inevitable swarm?? For a bit of background I DID replace full frames of brood with foundationless frames (which were immediately drawn into drone comb), added additional medium boxes (w/o queen excluder), etc... just a real big colony now. 2 deeps and 4 mediums. The top medium is partially drawn comb.

Sure appreciate your ideas.

[Mike Gillmore]

Sounds like they are definately in swarm mode. If you have some extra equipment you should probably do a split immediately. Find the queen and take her and most of the frames of "open" brood out of the colony and make up a split. Shake some bees onto the new hive, the young bees will stay and the older ones will return to the original colony. This will simulate a swarm and the old colony will begin to produce a new queen. Remove all queen cells from the frames in the new split. Since it sounds like you have cut out the queen cells make sure that you leave at least one frame in the old colony with some eggs or young larvae so they can make their new queen.

[wade]

It sounds pretty strange if there was just 1 swarm cell. Do you think the others hatched already longarm? If so, good luck finding any of them. I'd do a simple walk away split or two right now, or firstthing in the morning. Then if they swarm just recombine what's left. There's supposed to be some borderline "swarmy" weather tomorrow.

[Brent Bean]

If you removed the only capped queen cell how are they going to acquire another queen? You may have made them queen less if they don’t have any brood of proper age at the very least you set you parent hive back several weeks.
If a hive swarms I will remove all but a couple of capped swarm cells to prevent and after swarm. They need swarm cells to replace the old queen that has left with the swarm.

[longarm]

Brent,
I awoke this morning with that very thought.
DOH!
I now believe this hive is attempting to supercede AND swarm and that the single cells i have been finding are supercedure cells, not swarm cells.
in any case i will make a walk-away split today (as wade recommended) provided i can find enough eggs.

[Michael Bush]

My biggest concern about destroying any queen cells is that they end up queenless. Often they have ALREADY swarmed when you do. Sometimes they swarm anyway. If they are superceding, they often know something I don't.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopcuttingswarmcells
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm

[longarm]

Not ideal .. but it is what it is.

I made a split from the big hive into another deep taking 6 frames of bees/capped brood/ larvae from the big hive and adding 4 frames of pollen and honey that I had extra.
There were no eggs in the big hive (which makes sense I think as the queen doesn't lay for a week or so prior to swarming?). There were however both 4 or 5 supercedure cells and 3 or 4 swarm cells. I made sure to put 2 or 3 supercedure cells into the split, leave the others in the old hive, and remove the swarm cells (which I hope I don't regret). In place of the frames removed from the big hive I put foundationless frames and one frame of pollen (also from reserve).
Also took a medium of nectar and capped honey from the big hive and put it with the new split. This medium was packed full of young bees.

At this time my hope is that the split raises a queen from the supercedure cells it has and that, weather permitting, she mates and all is well. Same for the big hive though I fear it may still swarm regardless/that a virgin queen is in there already/etc.

[Brent Bean]

Since honeybees will only build swarm cells when conditions are good like good nectar and pollen availability. Swarm cells make some of the best queens money can buy. Use them don’t waste them.
Michael makes excellent points don’t fight your bees work with them, ever time I tried to have it my way both of us suffered. After all they have been at it longer than we have and know best. We need to be in the mind set to be stewards and not masters of them.

[sierrabees]

Like Brent said!!!!
Other than choosing supercedure cells over queen cells, sounds like you did the best that could be done under the circumstances.

[longarm]

Brent,
So that I can understand what you are saying more clearly re: swarm cells, supercedure cells, and a swarmy colony.. what would you have done in this situation?

[Ishi]

If they had cells on the bottom of the frames and on the sides also I would call all of them swarm cells.

[Brent Bean]

A colony that has swarmed could have many swarm cells, I would have done one of several things. Removed all but two swarm cells, this will give the hive the ability to replace the queen lost in the swarm but theory is they will be less likely to have an after swarm. Or use the swarm cells to do splits with. Check out Michael Bush’s web page he has a lot of excellent ideas. He should put out a book, Michael we are waiting?

[longarm]

Thanks Brent.
Then it sounds as if I didn't do too badly. I left the colony with 2 or 3 cells and established the split with the same, not sure that I made that clear in my previous postings.
As to the future I will make a point of saving other cells into small nucs (actually all my nucs were filled with other colonies/projects.. seems you can never have enough bee gear!).
MB's pages are always helpful and informative.