Robbed!

[tarheit]

I just received a honey order back today. The buyer complained it didn't arrived when they though UPS should deliver it (though it was shipped when I said it was, and delivered in the guarenteed UPS delivery time). So they refused delivery and had UPS send it back.

However, According to UPS tracking it took him two days to refuse the package. Plenty of time to replace the 60 pounds of honey with..... Water!

And to top if off this guy is a beekeeper (or claims to be) Black Cat Honey, NH.

:mad:

-Tim

[Barry Digman]

Is it this guy?

http://blackcathoney.com

[tarheit]

It is.

[Barry Digman]

Hmmm. I'd like to hear Mr. Waite's side of the story. Should we invite him over for a chat?

[Sundance]

Wow, that is really low! Like pond scum.

Sorry Tim, I hope he makes it right.

[kenr]

I second Sundances post.
And I do hope that he does come on for A chat.

[BjornBee]

Three options,

1)Some have called me a redneck recently, and although I never thought myself one....I do know some rednecks that have some friends from louisville, and problems like these are generally handled in a hard hitting manner..... :rolleyes:

2)Yes, Yes! In this time of history, sitting down and discussing (A chat as some say) this is probably helpful. Perhaps psychoanalysing his past, and why he behaves in this manner would be good. Was he abused? Was he deprived in childhood? Is he disadvantaged? And certainly if he has less than the next beekeeper, is he not also entiltled to take what he need to make him on par with others? Tim's probably like "walmart" in size compared to this lowly beekeeper with fewer than 20 hives. I never understood it, but some say success and wealth is bad, bad, bad. Sorry Tim. Give some up for humanity.

3)Based on past comments, I guess you should wait about one year, and call many times out of frustration. Always rememeber "Beekeepers don't call the cops on other beekeepers". So give him the benefit of the doubt. And posting this on beesource the same day as you recieved the package back indicates not alot of time in trying to resolve this. Have you spoke to him? Have you considered maybe it was a postal employee? In any event, name calling has been deemed useless. So "pond scum" comments just really empower the author. Or so I've been told.


Disclaimer....Intended for amusement only. Any events or similarity to actual events are not intended. Irony and assumptions are the sole responsibility of the reader. Any "if the shoe fits" ideas are coincidental only.

BTW, Good luck Tim.

[BjornBee]

Tim, Are you sure you "really" had honey in those jars? tongue.gif ;) :D :rolleyes:

[honeyman46408]

""I second Sundances post.""

""problems like these are generally handled in a hard hitting manner.....""

WOW what a low life!!

Shall we all send him email or sombody come up with an idea (legal) how to let him know how he is thought of-------

[magnet-man]

Tim, UPS has a fraud division. You might contact them.

[tarheit]

Thanks sundance. You have managed to remove all doubt from my mind where the honey went smile.gif (though I don't think you intended to). I don't like making accusations without proof (i suppose a burgler or UPS could have done it). However, Sundance apparently left a message on his blog and I got an e-mail message from him claiming I left the blog entry under a fake name and that the Maryland IP address it was left from is mine. Doesn't prove the theft, but certainly goes a long way proving his character, and removes all doubt in my mind.

Thanks magnet-man, I didn't know they had one. I'll have to bring it up when they contact me.

-Tim

[honeyman46408]

Another thought (hard for me)

Does UPS weigh the package both ways?

[iddee]

Well, I invited him for a chat.
I sent him an email with a link to this thread with a subject line of "Black Cat Fan Club."
We'll see if he responds.

[Rich Waite]

Thanks for the invite iddee, I see it's really easy for people on here to hear one side of a story and make there mind up. I really hope they are way more openminded to hearing and listening to the other and truthful side of it.
I get people like "sundance" that use fake emails and the same ISP as "Tim" does to post nasty things on My web site, like the below, without even asking whats up. Low and sad man.. really sad. specially since, by using the fake email, you did not want to even listen to the other side of it, made your mind up already.
RE:Dear Walter, Maybe you should collect some facts before toy post comments like that, 1 if you read the web site, This is My business, Richard Waite. 2 the person that ordered the honey is Tracy Panoz, someone that rents a room from Me. She needed the honey for a fair she was doing with things she makes as I did not have enough without "stealing" to much from the hives. 3 the package was signed by Me in error, as she was already emailing -G at local harvest, that it would do her no good. and UPS was called to pick it right back up, it was never opened while here in My store as it sat on the same spot on the floor as when it was left here.
But I'm sure making a comment like that with no facts at all to base it on makes you feel like a big man. Kinda reminds Me of the terrorists on TV and in the KKK, have to wear a mask, hide who you are, stand up and be proud, or are you that assamed of your actions?

Thanks and TTFN,
Richard Waite.
Black Cat Honey & Products
413-626-7136
62 Parker Street
Winchester NH 03470
www.BlackCatHoney.com (http://www.BlackCatHoney.com)

From: Black Cat Honey... Note's.. Fact's.. Info.. and More...<noreply@onlinequickblog.com>
To: Richard Waite<BlackCatHoney@hotmail.com>
Subject: New Comment on Nice weather, bees are a buzzing at Black Cat Honey... Note's.. Fact's.. Info.. and More...
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 21:18:42 -0700

A comment regarding "Nice weather, bees are a buzzing", an entry at Black Cat Honey... Note's.. Fact's.. Info.. and More..., was written at 10/17/2006 4:18:40 AM. Its status is Pending.

----------------------
Author: Sundance
IP Address: 66.52.142.7
Email Address: walterwart@warthog.com
Home Page:
----------------------
Comment:

Rumor has it you just ripped off someone off. You ordered a 60# container of honey and refused shipment only after you stole the honey and replaced it with water.<br><br>Tim is a decent guy, make it right as a bad rep in the bee business will follow you like...... A black cat!


NOW, forthe order, Tim emailed thru local harvest that is was shipped, RE: This email: From : <stores@localharvest.org>
Sent : Monday, October 2, 2006 8:01 PM
To : BlackCatHoney@hotmail.com
Subject : LocalHarvest Shipment Confirmation


Go to previous message | Go to next message | Delete | Inbox

Hello,

We just want to confirm that the products that you ordered from
Honey Run Apiaries (order number #17724) through
the LocalHarvest Web site have been shipped.

Our member farm included this message for you:
================================================== =====

Your order will ship
on wednesday via
UPS. Tracking
number
1Z4852040396712461

Thanks,
-Tim
Please note it says shipped, and the date, 2-OCT-06, not the 5th like he has said on here, this can be varied as a real email from local harvest and the web master there G, he also has copies ofthe email I and Tracy sent to Tim asking why it seemed delayed, never got any reply back from Tim, just stuff from G. Tim has had more excuses since then, from it needed to be warmed before the cold truck trip, then health reasons, they just keep comming and comming.
I don't know what was in the bucket sent UPS, I do know while it was here at 62 Parker Street, no one touched it and the UPS driver did inspect it as un-opened befroe taking it as a return, any sign of it being opened and it would have had to have been sent back, paid by Me here.
If anyone has questions, I'm happy to forward all emails about this and you can decide for yourself or please ask G the web Master at www.localharvest.org (http://www.localharvest.org)
This is My old name on ehre, I will not be using this anymore once the new one (PupSter) and the new email is (blackcathoney@hotmail.com) is approved.
Thanks for listening with an open mind.
Richard

[BjornBee]

Rich,

>>> "I see it's really easy for people on here to hear one side of a story and make there mind up."

Did you just attack everyone here on beesource with your very first post? I personally think if your coming on board to tell your side of the story, a better approach might be tried.

>>>"I really hope they are way more openminded to hearing and listening to the other and truthful side of it."

"Hope"?, how about giving some people you know nothing about the benefit of the doubt? I personally do not go around meeting people with the attitude or inner thought of "I hope this person is not a jerk!". I have a good upfront feeling about people and assume they are not jerks, and give them the benefit of the doubt, untill proven differently. You should try it.

>>>"and truthful side of it."

Ah, the mistake of actually stating "I'm telling the truth" statement. No bigger telltale sign then that. The old salesmen saying "you can trust me!"

Now that the chips fell, and I've heard the "My friend ordered it" and "I only signed for it" defense...someone is telling the truth, and someone is full of it. Tim just happens to be a longstanding member of beesource and somehow I have a much more open mind listening to Tim. Sorry. If one of truthful and one is dishonest, I can only go with my gut and stand behind Tim's comment.

Dont take it personal Rich. Maybe next time I'll approach it differently with a more open mind, after not being attacked in a round about way. In the meantime, for your business sake, I would limit those using your computor and who you sign packages for. All the little coincidences could be a reason some have a hard time understanding.

[BjornBee]

And as for the third option, that some postal employee did it. No way. Stealing it yes. But taking it home, taking the honey and filling them with water, and then exposing themselves a second time while returning the package to the system....No way. I don't buy it for a second.

[tarheit]

I thank Richard for posting Sundance's blog post, and especially the responce and the note the honey was to be shipped on Wednesday the 5th. I wasn't going post it to incriminate Rich. Apparently I am now Sundance and have changed my internet provider to one in Maryland.

In any case I consider it a closed matter. The customer has their money back and it's in the hands of UPS for their claims or fraud department to deal with as they see fit. They have scheduled to pick it up tomorrow.

-Tim

[Rich Waite]

Tim.. Was not going to incriminate Rich, You Tim, posted and told peopel here that My web site was the "problem" person. My web site, thats affects Me and My business. You tim, Might well Please look at the CC that was used to pay for this order along with the shipp to persons name, Hey, that match, Tracey Panos, There is nothing on My web site that talks about or mentions anyone But Me! and yes I read the above post before I wrote what I said, and I stand behind it. I was judged, slandered and called names for something I did not have anything to do with. They do have laws against that. Do we really need to go that low, cause if I need to I surely will unless you Tim, wish to post the truth, Who ordered it? was Black Cat Honey the ship to person? What date did you state it was shipped out, past tense? (RE: This email: From : <stores@localharvest.org>
Sent : Monday, October 2, 2006 8:01 PM
To : BlackCatHoney@hotmail.com
Subject : LocalHarvest Shipment Confirmation


Go to previous message | Go to next message | Delete | Inbox

Hello,

We just want to confirm that the products that you ordered from
Honey Run Apiaries (order number #17724) through
the LocalHarvest Web site have been shipped.
Past tense, SHIPPED, (bucket has left the building shipped, email dated 2-OCT-06) the tracking number shows it was really shipped 5-OCT-06, Now who is the "non-truth" teller here.

[Rich Waite]

Tim.. Was not going to incriminate Rich, You Tim, posted and told peopel here that My web site was the "problem" person. My web site, thats affects Me and My business. You tim, Might well Please look at the CC that was used to pay for this order along with the shipp to persons name, Hey, that match, Tracey Panos, There is nothing on My web site that talks about or mentions anyone But Me! and yes I read the above post before I wrote what I said, and I stand behind it. I was judged, slandered and called names for something I did not have anything to do with. They do have laws against that. Do we really need to go that low, cause if I need to I surely will unless you Tim, wish to post the truth, Who ordered it? was Black Cat Honey the ship to person? What date did you state it was shipped out, past tense? (RE: This email: From : <stores@localharvest.org>
Sent : Monday, October 2, 2006 8:01 PM
To : BlackCatHoney@hotmail.com
Subject : LocalHarvest Shipment Confirmation


Go to previous message | Go to next message | Delete | Inbox

Hello,

We just want to confirm that the products that you ordered from
Honey Run Apiaries (order number #17724) through
the LocalHarvest Web site have been shipped.
Past tense, SHIPPED, (bucket has left the building shipped, email dated 2-OCT-06) the tracking number shows it was really shipped 5-OCT-06, Now who is the "non-truth" teller here.

[Rich Waite]

PS, and My "attack's" as such where directed to the above people that seconded things they know nothing about, namely, Sundance, Field Bee's post of 17 October, 2006 12:20 AM, kenr field Bee's post of 17 October, 2006 01:08 AM, AND honeyman46408 Field Bee's post of 17 October, 2006 08:23 AM.

The openminded ones seem to be iddee, BjornBee and even magnet-man.

Richard

[Rich Waite]

One last thing.. I'm not sure about the weight thing with this, but UPS tells Me it was picked up as weighed and paid, as long as it is lighter, they don't say anything, so it could have had the water or what ever was in it right from the start, matbe the "Wal-Mart" of a honey Tim shipped it that way. I don't think any UPS person took it and I know it was not touched while here in My store, from when I signed for it, to when UPS came to get it.

[Sundance]

Rich...... I am Sundance. Not Tim. I live
in North Dakota, not Ohio. That is indeed
my message. I take full responsibility for
it.

I have purchased several queens (35 or 40)
from Tim and have found him to be a stand
up person in every dealing I have had with
him.

I am certainly willing to accept and listen
to any and all explanations you have. If you
signed for it, it in then between you and
Tim. Not your tenent.

After reading your explanations coupled with
my personal dealings with Tim, I stand behind
Tim's explanation. The plausability of UPS, the
post office, or anyone else going through the
trouble of switching honey with water is
beyond belief.

And the idea that " matbe the "Wal-Mart" of a honey Tim shipped it that way." Is rediculous.

[Sundance]

Rich,

I just ran your tracking number and the
package was ship just as Tim said, on the
5th of Oct., not the 2nd. It was delivered
on the 10th of Oct as Tim said, and you
did have it 2 days before UPS picked it
up again.

KEENE,
NH, US 10/12/2006 10:19 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
10/12/2006 7:26 P.M. RECEIVER HAS REFUSED THE DELIVERY OF THE PACKAGE. (DOMESTIC RETURNED TO SENDER, INTERNATIONAL - SENDER IS CONTACTED);PACKAGE RETURNED TO SENDER
10/12/2006 1:49 A.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED;RETURN TO SENDER PENDING
KEENE,
NH, US 10/10/2006 12:59 P.M. DELIVERY
10/10/2006 4:29 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY
KEENE,
NH, US 10/09/2006 9:19 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
CHELMSFORD,
MA, US 10/09/2006 7:34 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
10/09/2006 9:12 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
MAUMEE,
OH, US 10/06/2006 3:40 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
MAUMEE,
OH, US 10/05/2006 10:53 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN
LIMA,
OH, US 10/05/2006 9:02 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN
10/05/2006 8:26 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN
10/05/2006 3:44 P.M. PICKUP SCAN
US 10/02/2006 7:59 P.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED

[Barry]

I am temporaraly closing this thread till I have some time to read it all and sort out whats flying around here.

- Barry

[Barry]

Tim -

I'd like an update. What came of the UPS claims or fraud department?

There's a lot we don't know as fact in this situation. Did you have the "water" tested or sampled to verify what it was? There is jumping to conclusions based on circumstantial evidence. When that happens, we need to be very careful how hard and far we draw conclusions. Is there anything more that has come of this incident that helps us reach a resolution?

- Barry

[Jeffzhear]

Just an observation and suggestion:

Take the value of the sixty pounds of honey and shipping costs, divide by two and the Seller and Mr. Waite split the costs. Whoever has not paid, send the other a check. Mr. Waite, from the thread I read that you signed for it. The way I see it, by signing, you assume some responsibility.

At this point, from my perspective, both of you may be harmed.

I understand principle, but is it really worth it to both of you to create doubt in each of your potential buyers minds, over a few hundred dollars, NO! And surely it isn't worth litigation. You are businessmen, let it go, both of you pay for the screw-up and for heavens sake, don't do business with one another again.

Then, petition the moderator of this forum to remove the entire thread, to elimiate further damage to either one of you. You are both businessmen and have to accept a little loss from time to time.

I am not a lawyer, and don't profess to be one, and am only trying to interject some common sense.

Best of luck,
J

[Bee Man]

A bucket of water would weigh approximately 43 pounds versus a bucket of honey weighing in at 62 pounds, no need to do any testing as the weigh should indicate honey or water.

I would think UPS's return weight would have indicated water versus honey?

[Joel]

I think this a good one to do a test run on Consumer Report. It seems to be a case where something certainly happened. I'm keeping an open mind until the facts are in. Shouldn't someone from Admin be inviting both parties by E-mail to comment?

{Then, petition the moderator of this forum to remove the entire thread, to elimiate further damage}

I don't think this will likely happen or necessirarily should. The title, although pointed, requires the reader to delve further to determine the parties and the fault. Properly handling a complaint is good PR as far as I'm concerned so if handled properly is a positive. If Tim is able to produce the weight information from UPS or the information from the fraud department and Waite does not act accordingly we need to know this as well and we will all act as our conscience guides us.

{but is it really worth it to both of you to create doubt in each of your potential buyers minds, over a few hundred dollars, NO!}

This really is the crux of the matter J, your post is well pointed.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Shouldn't someone from Admin be inviting both parties by E-mail to comment?

In process. Tim first.

>surely it isn't worth litigation. You are businessmen, let it go,

If you had read Tim's earlier post you would know that Tim had already done that, he repaid Mr. Waite and has left it in the hands of the UPS.

>Then, petition the moderator of this forum to remove the entire thread,

That is a possibility after both parties have been satisfied. It's Tims thread, I'll let him make the call.

>Properly handling a complaint is good PR as far as I'm concerned so if handled properly is a positive.

Agreed, as long as the truth is borne out in the end. I had a queen breeder promise on here that he would make sure that I got replacements, even if he had to send his breeders at the end of the season. He had no intention of doing so, it was just talk for the public, and no, he didn't do it, but he sounded good in front of all of you.

[BjornBee]

Wow. I thought a moderator was just for the sake of the board and keeping it civil, etc. I didn't even think about the "moderator" acting as an arbitrator. This at least is what it sounds like to me. (Not perhaps in some altimate decision making position, but sounds like taking a lead role in settling the dispute. Arbitrator may be the wrong choice as a description)

So you will be contacting companies and other individuals brought forward in a grievance, and solicit thier side of the issue. This adds a new twist on the issues.

I had questioned the need for a moderator on the "honey exchange" and was told, that since other complaints (supplier-vendor disputes) outside the honey exchange are covered by mail fruad, civil courts, and other avenues to settle business matters, and that the honey exchange was different and "in-house, that a moderator was needed.

Now, for the moderator of the "consumer report" to actually take a lead role and solicit comments, rebuttals, and replies, I am not sure what to think.

Not sure where this forum is going, but a slippery slope is surely leading the way.....

I had wondered in my mind and commented whether this forum was just a place for nitpicking and old lady gossip, and was it really needed. Guess I was wrong. I look forward to reading this forum as new complaints and both sides are exposed, and apparently arbitrated on some level. Good luck BB, I think you will need it.

[ December 27, 2006, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]

[BjornBee]

Mediate....mediation...mediator. Thats the words that elluded me.... ;)

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>So you will be contacting companies and other individuals brought forward in a grievance, and solicit thier side of the issue.

It is only fair that the other party is made aware of an aired complaint and given a chance to come to an agreement with the complainer. It has been done in this and other threads before and in my view the fair (right) thing to do.

>I had questioned the need for a moderator on the "honey exchange" and,,,(snip)

Perhaps because that is because it is between members of Beesource? I am not aware of that situation.


>Not sure where this forum is going, but a slippery slope is surely leading the way.....

Indeed. It may only be a 'grand experiment' doom to fail, or it may be a very useful tool, time will tell.


>Good luck BB, I think you will need it.

No doubt. I hope the fact that I can not be here on weekends will not become a dooming factor. (I work my bees on weekends and am offline), I may have to enlist Joel or you to help me. (Not sure which graemlin to insert here.)

[Jeffzhear]

Bullseye wrote <If you had read Tim's earlier post you would know that Tim had already done that, he repaid Mr. Waite and has left it in the hands of the UPS.>

For the record Bill, I did read Tim's earlier post which said, "The customer has their money back". What I had suggested is that the two of them come to a meeting of the minds off line, agree to split the costs incurred to date and if that means Mr. Waite returns some money to Tim (half of the total cost), so be it.

[Joel]

I may have to enlist Joel or you to help me. (Not sure which graemlin to insert here.)

Now that's funny! I know which one your thinking of but the face is a little more puckered!

{Not sure where this forum is going, but a slippery slope is surely leading the way.....}
Be careful Bjorn, you gave up the bad boy seat and have ascended to sainthood. For the record, since this Post started, it's apparrently become mine and not without good effort!

Look, Barry made this new thread to try and add something positive to Beesource. BB and I have been 10 rounds here and behind the scenes and I've decided to back off and see if we can make this a good thing in the sprit of Barrys' intent.

We have to get both parties here, Bullseye (said throught clenched teeth :D ) is right to contact both parties and offer them the chance! I don't see him say mediate, just notify.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

> What I had suggested is that the two of them come to a meeting of the minds off line, agree to split the costs incurred to date and if that means Mr. Waite returns some money to Tim (half of the total cost), so be it.

OK, understood. Tim has taken the high road and has returned Waites money. Tim has cut his losses, although I am sure that he would like to be reimbursed for his losses.

What I can not understand in your statement is why he should bear even half the loss through no fault of his own? IF he can produce a shipping label which shows 60 plus pounds weight, then there is proof that he sent honey and should be paid for what he shipped.

IF the return label shows less than 60 pounds, (I have never seen a UPS label without shipping weight, but maybe it could happen), then it would be clear that the package had been tampered with while in the custody of Mr. Waite.

Yes, getting back half would be better than loosing it all, but it just does not seem right that he had been taken advantage of.

[tarheit]

Just an update. I have yet to have a final responce from UPS but that doesn't surprise me. I took them 4 months to resolve another shipment that they blatently lost. They even called at one point saying they'd have a final answer in 2 business days. No call until 3 weeks later when they ask what the package looked like and if I had pictures of the contents so they could look for it.

@bullseye: Apparently you can refuse a UPS delivery and they will ship it back to the sender at no charge and UPS justs adds a return label. No weight checks. I'm told by my father in law (long time UPS driver) that UPS will allow returns of packages like this up to 6 months after it has been delivered and signed for.

In any case I'll live with what UPS decides. Like may such things it's simply not worth the time and expense of testing the contents and tracing the source, going to court, etc. It's an unfortunate cost of doing business. Annoying though. Up until last year I was lucky not to have any such problems. But ran into several in 2006.

-Tim

[Bee Man]

Tim,

I know you use UPS due to pick up at work but fed ex ground has been great for us. Weekly pickup is only $7.00.

Damage claims which are not frequent get paid typically with 2 weeks if not sooner.

[PupSter]

Just an update.
In any case I'll live with what UPS decides. Like may such things it's simply not worth the time and expense of testing the contents and tracing the source, going to court, etc. It's an unfortunate cost of doing business. Annoying though. Up until last year I was lucky not to have any such problems. But ran into several in 2006.

-Tim

Just an update, UPS found I was right and Tim was in error. I think a key to this is Tim has the same/similer problem with UPS in 2006, To quote "Up until last year I was lucky not to have any such problems. But ran into several in 2006." several in 2006, Hmm.. Maybe look at the lowest common denominator here, either Tim or someone at UPS near him dealing with his packages. Sad that I got dragged into this for something a room renter might have done. The package in question being sent to Ms Panos and payed for on Ms Panos's card thru a 3rd party that agreed with her, not Tim. Doubt I'll ever see a Sorry message tho. I doubt anyone of the trash talkers on here is big enought to admit they might have been wrong.

[Dubhe]

anyone else hearing "Twilight Zone" music?