TBH Design Ideas

[The anonymous buzzing bee]

I have just finished my first season with the bees, and I am hoping to design and build a THB over the winter. TBHs are not as common over here in the UK, so there is no standard set of dimensions. I would quite like the bars to be the same length as 'National' type frames (17"), so they are, if nescesary, interchangeable with my existing hives. Other than that I have no idea where to start, so could I have some ideas please.
</font> What is the best angle for the walls?</font> Fixed or seperate floor?</font> Entrance in end or side of hive?</font> How much to allow for expansion of the timber?</font> etc.</font>
I think I might get quite a few conflicting opinions here. smile.gif

Thanks

ABB

[Michael Bush]

&gt;I would quite like the bars to be the same length as 'National' type frames (17"), so they are, if nescesary, interchangeable with my existing hives.

That's what I'd do.

&gt;What is the best angle for the walls?

Square. And put the same rabbet for frame rests as a National. Just make a really long national hive. Same width. Same depth. Same frame rest. That way you can put National FRAMES in if you want.

&gt;Fixed or seperate floor?

I did mine fixed and screened. I don't think it matters.

&gt;Entrance in end or side of hive?

Mine are all on the top at the end now. It solved problems with skunks and mice and the gap at the last bar is how they get down into the hive.

&gt;How much to allow for expansion of the timber?

You always want at least 1/4" gap at the front and back so you have a little room to work.

&gt;I think I might get quite a few conflicting opinions here.

I am sure you will.

[Robert Hawkins]

I'm not sure how long you're been following the conversations here but this is what we're doing now.

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/lh/lh.html

For the same reasons you mentioned and of course I agree with Mr. Bush completely.

Hawk

[buckbee]

a.b.b.,

I am also experimenting with THHs in the UK, using 17" top bars and vertical sides to facilitate the changeover.

After several experiments, I have settled on a 36" long box, which flat-packs for easy transport (not with bees inside, obviously...). As soon as I can organize it, I will post some pictures and dimensions.

[stangardener]

&gt;TBHs are not as common over here in the UK, so there is no standard set of dimension

the same holds true in the US

im on the long box band wagon right now but have to plug the ktb hive. im only going lb (long box) for fear of completly isolating myself from the mainstream beekeeping world.
im building my hives with robber screens so i have been using side or front entrances.
the ktb hives ive built had 30 degree sides-20x36".
i got a roll of 4x100' #8 screen ($125 shipped) and am building fixed screen bottoms.

[D. Murrell]

Hi ABB,

Since my tbh is obviously the best one ever designed, I will share some of my thoughts :&gt;)))

Actually, the bees are very adaptive of almost any kind of space as long as it has enough functional volume, affords some protection from the elements, and can be defended from their enemies.

Almost everything else, in tbh design, has to do with beekeeper's needs. So, I would make a list of what is important. Be sure it has the appropriate volume and then create your own design optimized for your materials and building tools/skills.

Some general comments:

Volume: Build the hive a little longer than your bees needs. It will allow you some working room. It's a handy space to set top bars while working the hive(no need for a top bar stand) and it provides a place to feed the bees or raise a nuc.

Sidewall Angle: I like some degree of sidewall angle. When comb attachments are cut, a small remanent will remain attached to the sidewall. A beekeeper, with a square hive, will have to be very careful not to catch any part of the edge of the entire comb on these remanents when removing or inserting a top bar, as the comb is all the same width. This isn't a problem in a tbh with sloped walls and tapered comb. If looks are an important factor(a garden hive?), then sloped sides are definately hotter than the square box.

Entrances: Consider which way you prefer to have a tbh face. Will it be along side a building or wall? Do you want it to have more surface area exposed to the winter sun? Then use a side entrance. If you have limited space between hives in your beeyard, then use an end entrance. Will you tbh have legs? A bottom entrance might be the best. I prefer to have two entrances on my tbh. It allows for additional ventilation and management options. One of these is normally closed.

Floor: I use a fixed floor as my hives are migratory and are legless. And I live in a very windy climate. Sustained winter winds often blow above 60 mph, at very low temps, and carry a significant snow load which quickly kills an unprotected hive.

Expansion: I haven't had any problems with lumber expansion. My hives are pine and I live in a dry climate.

Cover: My hives have a flat, functional, very ugly cover. It's easy to build, strong and migrates better than a sloped one. But if my tbh had legs and stayed in one place, I would extend the ends of my tbh upward. And they would incorporate the slope for the cover. These ends would support the roof, much like the roof on a house is supported by the ends of the house. The roof would then consist of two flat pieces of wood and a small strip of flashing. Such a design would provide a dead airspace above the top bars which could be used as additional storage space. And the cover could be very light, easy to build and simple. It would shed precipitation. And it would look great.

Flexibility: I know that after you complete your first tbh, it will be absolutely the best one ever! Even much better than that the one mentioned above:&gt;))) But I only know of one tbh beekeeper who, after building their first tbh, couldn't tweak the design a bit more to their liking. So, build some flexibility into your first design and construction. It's really easy to change entrances, slopes and lengths if some degree of flexibility is provided.

And be sure to take a few photos of your tbh while building it and share them with us. I haven't seen a tbh design that I didn't learn something from.

Best Regards
Dennis

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi all

Nice hive Hawk! Now you got me thinking... Guess the wife's new dining room table is going to have some competition in the shop this winter from another project...

Dennis, nice job with the new web site, I really enjoy it!

We are getting the cold here early. 4 degrees this morning.

[D. Murrell]

Hi Guys,

Keep your earmuffs handy, it's about -13 here. Winter has arrived here and it's coming your way :&gt;)
See: http://weather.gov/forecasts/graphical/sectors/conus.php#tabs


But it's a great time for figuring, fiddling around with websites and typing on the lists.

I think my next project will be a long hive with custom frames that are much taller than deeps.

Keep Warm
Dennis

[Joel]

I'm spending some cold weather reading Dennis's website sans Barry!

I have a neighbor (5 miles) who used these long hives. He was from Romania. Said that's what they used there. Didn't seem to winter as well although it may have more to do with the 5 lbs of Sevin he dusted his garden with than the hive style.

[BerkeyDavid]

Joel
Ask your Romanian neigbor about the bee wagons! I was over there this fall and met a few beekeepers. great folks. yes their hives are long hives, in wagons. I have pics on my web site, although web site is used very loosely, especially with regard to the standards most of you are setting! ;) the bar is very high around here!

[Joel]

I'll do that and report! Wagons, migratory then!

[chemistbert]

If anyone is fearing isolation from the rest of your local beeks then I say isolation it is! You will not regret leaving the pack and learning something new. I quit attending local meeting because all I got was, "You shouldn't do it that way" and "It's not going to work." Well I haven't lost a hive yet so that might say something. I'm sure I will but it won't be because I didn't try something new.

[BerkeyDavid]

Joel
ALso ask him how to say varroa mite in Romanian. I had a heck of a time trying to communicate on this...

[Wojtek]

I was encouraged by Dennis to share some photos of TBH so that is it a bit updated:
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Wojtekshives2.html
The text is in Polish but pictures “speaks” better sometimes then text.
I agree totally with Dennis indications related to TBH.
I have 7 full size + some small staff, TBH (2 are empty) Each one is different although general principle I have applied are the same.
Take some interest in the picture of a tool I made and called it “podcinacz”.(There are 3 pictures.) In English it would be something as “undercutter”. I found this absolutely necessary and indispensable for TBH keepers.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Ul_poziomy.html
Unfortunately, I didn’t take a picture of another “invention” of top bar. It is not quite tested yet sins I applied it too late and I am not quite sure of results, but from my initial observations it looks promising, so more about it in a future.
Wojtek

[The anonymous buzzing bee]

Thanks, Guys.
Just a couple more point that came up whilst browsing B Wrangler's website -

</font> What is the adantages/disadvantages of 'T' topbars against normal ones</font> How do you start the comb? If a strip of foundation, how is it fixed? - As on a normal frame?</font>
Thanks again,
ABB

[Michael Bush]

&gt;What is the adantages/disadvantages of 'T' topbars against normal ones

The idea was to give the comb more support. Bwrangler would have to tell you how it worked. I've never tried it.

&gt;How do you start the comb? If a strip of foundation, how is it fixed? - As on a normal frame?

Most of us, IF we use a strip of foundation, we cut a groove in the top bar and wax the strip into the groove with a wax tube fastener (see Walter T. Kelley or other bee supplier). I prefer a trangular guide. I've done both and had better luck and better attachment to the bar with the guide.

You can see some here with the guide on them:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/KTBHOpen.jpg

Some of these are strips (blank ones) and some are guides.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TTBHOpen.JPG

[Murphy]

Wotjek,

Nice site! Pity my Polish is horrible. I am interested in the “podcinacz” how do you use it and how is it made.

Thanks,

Kieran

[Murphy]

Has anyone taken a Lang hive and just put in bars like the TBH's. The reason I ask is I have all these Langs and would like to try the TBH's without adding more equipment if possible.
I currently have my hives on starter strips in deep frames. I was wondering about just taking the sides and bottoms of the frames and letting the bees get on with it. I was thinking when comming to harvest to just cut the comb and leave about a 1" attachment.

Thanks,
Kieran

[Michael Bush]

&gt;Has anyone taken a Lang hive and just put in bars like the TBH's.

I start my TTBH's in Langstroth equipment. Usually a five frame medium nuc and then move it to an eight frame medium box and then a ten frame medium box and then a long box. But sooner or later you need the long box.

&gt;The reason I ask is I have all these Langs and would like to try the TBH's without adding more equipment if possible.

You can start off that way. But once you get to ten frames, then what?

&gt;I currently have my hives on starter strips in deep frames. I was wondering about just taking the sides and bottoms of the frames and letting the bees get on with it.

My deep top bar hive didn't do so well. It was a double wide deep (9 5/8" + 3/4" deep) and one hot day the combs went down like a row of dominoes in a complete collapse. I did a cutout to medium frames and tried a long medium next which worked well.

&gt; I was thinking when comming to harvest to just cut the comb and leave about a 1" attachment.

It will work fine except for the expansion issue. If you add boxes on top then your top bars would need spacers or gaps to allow the bees to move up and down and then there would be the problem of them attaching the bottom of the comb to the top bar of the box below...

[stangardener]

&gt;If anyone is fearing isolation from the rest of your local beeks then I say isolation it is!

what i meant buy that is with just top bars i wouldnt be able to share nucs with other people it might also be more difficult to be involved in pollination services. also since i dont already have a back ground in the usage of langs so im getting one.

&gt;What is the adantages/disadvantages of 'T' topbars against normal ones

in my experiance none. i started three packages last spring knowing id be moving them in the fall. when i was making top bars id never moved a hive much less a tbh. i was worried about comb collapse so i used tounge depressors to make a tee. they worked and were incorporated into the comb alright but by the fall the comb was mature enough that i feel "tees" werent needed.

[D. Murrell]

Hi Wojtek,

I can't speak a word of Polish(sure wish I could) and there aren't any web translators for your pages. But what great pictures and tbhs you have. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

It appears your podcinacz has a flexible cutting blade on it. What do you use to build such a blade? Also, I like the handle. I bet it's easy to use when it gets sticky with honey, a feature not seen with our round, slick handles.

Regards
Dennis

[D. Murrell]

Hi David,

What's your website address?

Regards
Dennis

[D. Murrell]

Hi ABB,

&gt; * What is the adantages/disadvantages of 'T' topbars against normal ones


I initially used the 'T' topbar but have abandoned it since then. New comb is very fragile and the 'T' keeps the comb from failing due to mishandling. The comb won't 'flap'. And the 'T' provides a support to rest the comb on. I could handle a top bar with one hand and shoot pictures with the other.

A 'T' is pretty handy for a seasoned Lang type beekeeper, as they often have developed some very unconsious ways of flapping comb. A new beekeeper might not have developed these bad habits :&gt;)

Once comb gets seasoned, it is much stronger. And as a beekeeper learns to work tbh comb without flapping it, the 'T' support isn't needed to prevent comb failures. A top bar stand can be used to hold comb.

As an example, I can rotate one of my huge, seasoned combs, full of honey, 180 degrees within it's plane. That is switch end for end, which results in the top bar below the upside down comb. Then set this comb down on a flat surface, on its top bar with the comb point upward. The comb is completely safe unless the wind comes up or is bumped and falls over.

If this was done with a new comb, it wouldn't survive the first 90 degrees of rotation without seperating from the top bar and falling to the ground.

I've found the added construct complication, although minor, isn't really worth the effort after my initial learning experience.

And a 'T' also complicates cutting comb free from a top bar when it's embedded in the comb. With a standard top bar, zip, the combs cut off. With the 'T' one has to cut around the T and then scrap off the adhereing comb, which takes time and can be messy. Also, I've accidently cut a few 'T's off of the thinner, parallel kind of 'T' support, while cutting comb.

When I built my first tbh, I though of comb as a capital asset. But I now think of it as an expendible item which should be replaced every three years or so. A tbh and top bars without 'T's make this a very easy process.

Some Thoughts
Dennis

[ December 11, 2005, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ]

[D. Murrell]

Hi Guys,

Just some more comments on the 'T'.

I also initially abandoned the 'T' for another reason as well. If you look at the pictures of my broodnest comb at:

www.bwrangler.com/ (http://bwrangler.farvista.net/qmar.htm)bee/tdev.htm (http://bwrangler.madpage.com/bee/tdev.php)

You will notice that almost all of the broodnest comb has worker comb on the leftside of the 'T' and drone comb to the right. I thought that the 'T'might have provided some kind of barrier or divider to broodnest construction. But when I abandoned the 'T', the bees built the comb the same way. So, if you decide to use the 'T', don't worry about it interferring with the broodnest structure.

Incidentily, the left-right split in worker-drone comb provided me with another opportunity to experiment. I've tried to 'manage' the comb to obtain worker sized cells across the entire top bar. But haven't been successful.

Regards
Dennis

[ September 05, 2006, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: B Wrangler ]

[Robert Hawkins]

Hey Dave, that's not my carpentry or even my web page. I was just quoting from Dave Robbins. Can't take credit for his work. Before now I didn't see a reason to post mine if his was available. But i'm not sure on the slatted rack stuff.

This newer push for ventilation scares me. Unless the bees propolize everything, there are plenty of leaks in the hives I build. The mountain winds are humongous. Last week over 100 mph. We got ventilation, brother. I'm not even using SBBs. I stick in a board that's been painted white and Pammed.

I'm really excited about the podcinacz. I hope this doesn't offend our Polish speakers, but could we just call it an undercutter? Then i won't have to scroll back up and cut and paste everytime. Let me know if this turns into a social faux pas.

Hawk

[limulus]

&lt;It will work fine except for the expansion issue. If you add boxes on top then your top bars would need spacers or gaps to allow the bees to move up and down and then there would be the problem of them attaching the bottom of the comb to the top bar of the box below...&gt;

I am not sure that comb attachment is a problem. My bees have not yet connected any comb to the floor of the hive. It seems that if the opening to the second story were made against a wall that the bees would make very little if any attachments as long as the bars were solid like most top bars they would simply be seen as a floor. I bet it would even work if a series of holes were drilled in a pair of top bars, with the center line of the holes on the seam between the bars. It might be worth a shot, but I don't think I will try it any time soon. I am pretty happy with the horizontal arangement and all the ease and simplicity that goes with it.

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi David,

What's your website address?
My web page (http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dn4911/my_photos)

Not really a web site, just a place to post pictures.

Great Polish Web site! I like the tool! nice job with the top bars.

Anyone ever try to design a TBH with a removable end so you don't lose the comb from the first top bar?

I have been thinking that one way to build top bars with a middle lip would be to use a dado blade with a spacer in the middle the width of your tongue. you could initially make the bar twice as thick as you need, groove both sides, then rip it.

[limulus]

I have a small spacer built into the end of the box that holds the first top bar away from the end wall, That way there is only a bee space between that comb and the end wall. As this is often not one of the first combs built a completed comb (I use 1 1/2 inch honey storage combs for the fist couple before the broodnest starts) can be placed there. That way there is very little attachment and the comb does not get lost. On the other end of the hive, I just keep loosing those and they are tasty smile.gif .
Cool idea with the dado it might be qucker than making the angled cuts like I have done. Although to be honest there have been times that i needed another bar, and have been too lazy to make one and I just put a board with no type of gude whatsoever between drawn combs and these get built up just fine too. I think they are a bit weaker though with less surface area for attachment.

[Wojtek]

I see some questions regarding "podcinacz", so I will try to answer and, by the way, to present two more thing.
The blade is some kind thin ( about 0.5mm, or slightly more) spring-like steel, which I shaped on rotary grinder. Important thing is the width of the neck of this blade because this determine stiffness and flexibility. Too flexible or too stiff or too long is not practical.
The first one I made was too delicate and too flexible. Good for undercutting and excellent for undercutting from a floor requiring 90 degree angle but for scrubbing it was too flexible, also a bit too flexible for cutting off combs with honey during harvesting. This one I can bend much over 90 degrees without loosing original shape. Handle, - any kind of a hard wood. Dennis, - if you like the handle, look at the picture I added to my home page. Probably you will like it even more.:)
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Ul_poziomy.html

How to use it? Just press sufficiently strong so the blade will be flat on a surface you try to cut something off it ( as on the pictures)and move up along a surface, or horizontally on a bottom, (rarely necessary).
Application: Undercutting attached combs to a side walls or a bottom.
Scrubbing wax or propolis.
Picking up some pieces of wax fallen on a bottom.
Cutting off combs with honey from a bar during harvesting.
And, the most necessary….: This is the second related subject. We all know how difficult it is to get to a combs from the brood side. I solved this problem with something I called “ślepy plaster” or, in English could be “phantom comb”. This is 2”wide bar with attached
the same thickness pink styrofoam shaped exactly as transverse internal shape of hive. This the first bar and is removable. (Serves also as insulation)
When we want to inspect combs from this side this “phantom comb” is slide up living 2” wide space free to get to the first brood comb. This 2” is sufficient space to use easily “podcinacz” to do all necessary cuts. Works beautifully!!

Hawk.
Certainly, you all may call it “undercutter” and it is OK. You even call me a Bill instead of Wojtek :)
I mention before what “podcinacz” means in English and the word “undercutter” defines equally well in English what “podcinacz” defines in Polish. This is too little think to elaborate on it. This is quite natural think that certain words are adaptable from language to language or substituted by local language. Most of English words are adopted Latin and not only.

The second think I wonted to share are this two holes in TB in the picture, but I will write about it in separate post. In the meantime use your imagination.
Wojtek

[Wojtek]

Initially I wonted to wait till next year to share my future experience on today’s theory related to this two holes in the top bar I posted in my home page.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Ul_poziomy.html
Impatience prevailed and was fortified by a notion that some of you in wormer climate may test this earlier than I can do in this cold Chicago.
My thinking is based on the fact that bees in TBH have less mobility than in a classical hives.
In classical hives bees can walk from comb to comb from 4 sides. In TBH the most important area of commuting, the top, is completely restricted. Some times bees are making a hole “communicating hole” but not too often. Besides, attachment on side walls also making communications more difficult. This could be a reason for different behavior of bees in TBH comparing to hives with frames in which they walk also on a top of frames and getting to a next comb faster and easier if they did not find a place to deposit nectar or pollen on a comb they found themselves. A few full combs with honey and difficulties to get farther could be a reason for stopping depositing nectar earlier than in hives with frames in which communication and access to all part of hive in much easier.
One of my hive has 23 ¾” long TB. This is a long way to walk from wall to wall. Besides when they reach a wall they will find another barrier in a form of side attachment.
This theory combined with some other observation lead me to a conclusion that we have to make this easer for them.
I have made two holes but I think that it will never be too many holes, for a reason of easer communication and ventilation between combs. I did only two just to see how it affect behavior of bees in initiation of building combs.
I didn’t have time to test this because this idea came to me too late for last season. The only thing I noticed was that they started to build combs almost exactly in the middle between holes. The bees has only time to initiate 3 combs. Too little to make any conclusion, but I think that there is something important in it.
So, you have enough time to start to make holes for the next season, :) if you are as curious as I am.
Wojtek

[limulus]

Wojtek,
I love your "phantom comb" Idea. I think I will make a couple for next year, simple and elegant it doesn't get any better than that.
As far as the holes goes, I think the bees will build what they need (anyway I am too lazy to try it, at least until I need to build more top bars). In my hives there are very few side attachments and the bottom is allways open. That said there are always some holes near the top of a few combs, especially in the honey storage areas. Maybe they like the extra air movement for ripening the honey?

[BerkeyDavid]

Woj

I like the hole idea a lot. I am thinking it might even encourage them to make straight comb alinged more precisly on the bar.

I also think the bigger the holes, or the more holes, the easier it will be for the cluster to move during the winter.

[Michael Bush]

&gt;In TBH the most important area of commuting, the top, is completely restricted.

Since all natural hives have this same restriction, I don't believe the top is the most important area of communicating (or maybe you actually did mean commuting since they travel that way?). If it was, then I think the bees would leave more communication holes. It may be that shorter top bars or shallower combs are wiser (from a TBH design POV) since the bees can get from one comb to the next with less distance to travel to get to the end or the bottom. Of course they can move from comb to comb quite well with only a 3/8" hole. If you put a 3/8" hole in the center at the top of every comb it might make some difference. I've considered doing a 3/8" hole in the center of the Dadant deeps I have. But I haven't gotten it done.

[Wojtek]

Michael. All this is my theory. Certainly shorter bars and shallow hive should be considered, but very long hive is not quite comfortable for me so I am trying to find some different solution.
I put a picture of the bar with two holes initially, because this was done some time ago. In the meantime I have made a few new versions of such bars, photo it, and put in my home page yesterday. Look again in:
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/Ul_poziomy.html
I know that to have many choices is a biiiiig problem :)
Wojtek

[Michael Bush]

&gt;I like the hole idea a lot. I am thinking it might even encourage them to make straight comb alinged more precisly on the bar.

That's an interesting thought. If the hole was at the very top and they were using it (and not just filling it in) they might leave the comb thinner than they currently do at the top to facilate travel. (Currently they make the tops of the combs pretty much touch.) It would be fun to see what they do. But I wouldn't count on it.

[The anonymous buzzing bee]

Just one more point - Do I make the top bars the same width of normal spacers? (1 1/2") Do I need to plane them down as the bees regress to small cell? If so, by how much and how many 'generations' of comb does it take for them to regress?

Many thanks,

ABB

[Michael Bush]

&gt;Just one more point - Do I make the top bars the same width of normal spacers? (1 1/2") Do I need to plane them down as the bees regress to small cell? If so, by how much and how many 'generations' of comb does it take for them to regress?

I've had the best luck making half of them 1 1/4" and half of them 1 1/2". I use the 1 1/4" ones in the brood nest and when they start building thicker honey storage I juggle them around to get the 1 1/2" ones up against the cluster. A few spares of each and a few 3/8" spacers for when the get carried away building a really fat comb are handy.

My first TBH I gave them all 1 1/2" bars. The brood nest was too narrow and they ignored my starter strips and the honey was fatter and they still ignored my starter strips other than the first couple of combs. They bees will build the brood combs about 1 1/4" no matter how wide your bars are and they will make the honey 1 1/2" or MORE no matter how wide your bars are. smile.gif