Installing package in TBH

[Scotty]

My packages will be arriving this friday, and I am not quite sure how to install them in the TBH. I gather I just dump them all into the TBH, but how do I go about releasing the queen? Should I try to dangle her between two top boards? Or should I just lay her on the bottom?

Im afraid if I laid her on the bottom the bees would cluster on the top bars and she would become too cold and die.

Any ideas?

[Scot Mc Pherson]

I like to dangle her between the 2nd and 3rd top bar in the center of the bars. Face the screened top of the queen cage to the rear of the hive, and hang her about 4 inches down so she isn't encased in the combs where the bees build it. This will get the bees clustering in the front center of the nest and will help ensure they build straight combs if you use comb guides.

Once you have striaght combs, making more straight combs is very easy.

[Michael Bush]

I just direct relase her. But there is the possibility they could abscond doing that.

[Scotty]

Thanks for the quick replies. I think I'll go ahead and dangle her between the top bars. I don't want to risk losing a 4# package of bees because of a direct release.

[MGBee]

Scotty:

I am not an expert with TBH management. But-- We hived 4 packages last weekend. Just for an experiment, I dangled one queen as Scott suggests and direct released 3 as Michael suggests.

The dangled one built cross comb from the queen cage, up the dangling wire that I had hung her from and to the top bar above.

The 3 that were direct released went straight to business with no cross comb. I did spray the packages a bit with a little spearmint mixed with 1/1 syrup. Don't know if this helped the bees accept her majesty better, but it did make ME feel as if I were helping.

Just my brief experience, but tell us what you did
and what happens.

Regards,
Miles

[AlpineJean]

HiYa'll,

I have 2 questions: yesterday I cut some 1 1/4 top bars and some of them are 1/16 too narrow... is that critical? I can cut more.

how many top bars should I have available to a 3# package to get them started?

Thanks,
Jean

[AlpineJean]

PS: If I direct release the queen would it help them to not abscond if I put some green grass in the entrance so that they can't leave for a few days till it dries out?

[Michael Bush]

I've never done the grass trick, but I probably would help a little. I have only had one package abscond in 31 years of beekeeping, so I know it CAN happen, but I don't consider it real likely.

[AlpineJean]

Good to hear that. So, what about the bars that are 1/16 too narrow? Should I worry or let it go?

[Michael Bush]

1/16" too narrow? How wide are they? I make mine 1 1/4" and think that is perfect for the brood area.

[AlpineJean]

I cut a bunch of them to 1 1/4 and when I measured them after cutting some of them had nudged (is that word) to being 1/16 narrower than that...

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Thats a bummer. If you are ripping 2x4s at least they are cheap.

On the other hand, with warping and junk getting shoved between bars by the bees, if you don't clean the bars each time you open the hive, you could be ok. Another thing you "could do", but it might not work nor be the best idea. Put your 1 1/4" bars in the brood area for hte bees to build out, then once the combs are built out 60%-ish, you could place the tighter bars between the combs and see what happens. Might not be the best idea, might work great...Either way you'll learn something from it.

If it were me I'd chuck them or use them for something else, I use hive scraps to make things, like my tops are sloped roofs, I might use that scrap wood you just made to make supports to keep the roof together.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

And remember, that "put-back-on tool" is a lot more expensive than your saw. smile.gif

Always better to err on the side of "I can always take a tiny bit off more later.

[MIKI]

Don't feel bad when I first started making TBH's I had plenty of kindling. I totaly agree with Scot chuck them now and aviod problems in the future. You want to standardize all your equipment now so interchanging parts in the future is not a problem espically your bars.

[AlpineJean]

OK> I'll bite the bullet and just let it go and make some more tomorrow much much more carefully. Thanks for the encouragement....

So, how many bars shall I have exposed to them when I first install them in the hive? And, I suppose it's best if it's all "brood bars" at this time, right?

Best to you all

[Dick Allen]

What difference is a sixteenth of an inch going to make on a few bars?

[Scot Mc Pherson]

dick,
Its a big difference when its 1/16th inch smaller than 1 1/4". If it were 1 3/8" I'd say its perfect. Its the difference between centered comb and drifting comb, and also lack of interchangeability. Lets say comb does happen to get centered on the bar, the comb will protrude further than it should in relation to the edge of the bar, so when that comb is placed adjecent to other combs that is was not build adjecent to, it will interfere with bee space, and can cause a major problem with burring or even chewing down the comb to the midrib and having the comb unusable for anything except a as misplaced midrib. A waste of space in teh brood nest and interference with communication between combs. Same thing can occur to a lesser extent when combs are unwisely placed together in the hive. If they intrude upon bee space, or leave too large a space, the comb will likely be adjusted by the bees to fit the new requirements and make the comb unsuitable for placement anywhere else in the hive except in the far back waiting to be culled.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Alpine,
You don't need a follower board, I find it doesn't help as much and may actually interfere with brood nest development with newly installed bees. A follower board may be beneficial when overwintering, but I have given up on them completely. Using a follower board forced the bees to believe in a cavity of a limited space which is suddenly opened up larger and larger. The bees will build and plan their brood nest according to what is available and using a follower board gives them a false and mistaken impression of the size of the hive. GO ahead and put all your top bars on the hive, check the new combless hive daily while the bees draw the initial combs. It better to fix poorly drawn combs now instead of waiting until later although you might be well intended by allowing the bees to gain in strength now before making adjustements, any poorly designed combs are just going to make matters more messy in the future, and when you need to do MAJOR broodnest surgery in the future, you bees will have a much harder time recovering from it. To do the major adjusting within the first 2 weekls of nest development is most definitely better that dealing with the messy alternative later.

[Michael Bush]

>What difference is a sixteenth of an inch going to make on a few bars?

Maybe nothing. Probably the bees will just cheat every comb over 1/16". But in four combs you'd be over 1/4". In eight you'd be over 1/2". I haven't tried anything less than 1 1/4". I've done as big as 1 1/2" and they cheated them down, ignoring my starter strips until they were in the middle of a bar.

Since I haven't tried any I can't say for sure.

[Dick Allen]

My bars are also 1 1/4 following the plans I used. But why is that dimension used instead of 1 3/8 from the self-spacing langstroth frames?

[AlpineJean]

Scot,
Don't the bees get discouraged if they are dumped into a large volume of space and maybe abscond? Of course, when they swarm into a log they choose a nice sized one and stay... We'll see what happens.
Thanks,
AJ

[Scot Mc Pherson]

The hoffman frames are a little bigger than the natural beespace discovered by huber. When huber studied bees he found in the brood nest 1 1/4 inches from midrib to midrib. For those of use that are particularlyt interested in Small Cell and Natural Cell bees, we have come to the group conclusion that when using a foundationless system especially and small cell foundation in general, that the bees more readily build small cell when a 1 1/4 inch spacing is provided.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Alpine,
I haven't had any problems with absonding from TBHs, I had a swarm abscond but I am fairly certain it was because I was toying with them too much in the first few days.

Bees will abscond from a hive when its too big yes, but you gotta be building some giant hives for them to be too big. My hives are the same volume as three deep supers or brood chambers. out of 4 package installations and 30 swarms, I haven't had one abscond yet (except the one I kept toying with). THe one swarm that did abscond, I had to put them in temporary housing (carboard box with shims for top bars, I transfered them to the TBH along with the comb built on the shims (this shims were REAL thin). I let them build some more comb adjecent to the shims, then removed the shims. All this in 3 days. For a new swarm this abuse can be VERY discouraging and since they havne't developed a strong association with the location as home, and their brood suddenly disapeared.

[AlpineJean]

OK, so then it's a good idea to have the hive divided half and half w/ bars 1 1/4 and 1 3/8? That's what I think I've been seeing.

[Scotty]

Well I just got a phone call this morning from my post office, and my bees are here a day early. I'll go ahead an install them tonight when I get back from school, and let you guys and gals know how it goes smile.gif

[BerkeyDavid]

<OK, so then it's a good idea to have the hive divided half and half w/ bars 1 1/4 and 1 3/8? That's what I think I've been seeing.

Hi Alpine. I made some 1 1/4 and some 1 1/2. Problem is the bees do what they want where they want. At least I was unable to convince them where to use the 1/1/4's and where to use the 1 1/2's. SO IMO the best compromise solution would be to go all with 1 3/8's.

[Dick Allen]

One of those miller style hive top feeders will fit quite nicely on top of my TBH if I remove some of the bars. But, I suspect if I do that those bees will build their natural comb directly under, and attached to, the feeder. Has anyone used a miller style hive top feeder for feeding?

Also a question for BerkeyDavid. Did you rig up a float of some sort in your internal feeder to keep the bees from drowning?

[Michael Bush]

I went with 1 1/4" in the brood and 1 1/2" for honey based on what the bees have done. 1 3/8" is the best compromise if you want one size, but they don't respect the size of your bars anyway and build what they want. The two sizes are just my attempt to adjust to their descisions.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Dick,
The miller style feeder will work just fine so long as they have established even a tiny nest in the front of the hive. I prefer to just use ziplock bags which I fill with feed, Place as many as will fit in the back of the hive without being directly underneath the nest, and use a razor to cut 3 long cuts across the top. On the otherhand, I don't do spring feeding, I just feed new packages. Even with splits, I give them seed brood combs to start with and their is PLENTY of honey in them. Now having said that, I am NOT in canada. But I bet if you use northern bees (Carniolans, Caucasians, etc.), and you leave them their safe share of honey to overwinter with, you'll probably find you dont' need or want to feed either, but again. I am NOT in canada.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Alpine,
David is right, the bees will do what they want. As soon as they perceive its honey time, they'll start building to 1 1/2 center to center. What I do is I figure they'll build a nest that's about 7 bars the first season IF you don't open the brood nest up while they are constructing. And you probably don't want to mess with the brood nes tthe first year anyway.

Firstly, I am going to assume you are building a TopBarHive of internal 48 inches long or Less. That's 35 or less bars depending on the size of the bars you use and the size of your hive. So lets say make 15 bars for brood and the rest for honey stores. You aren't going to fill your TBH with honey OR brood the first year anyway, so this is safe. Place all the brood bars in the front and all honey bars in the back. Let the bees build, and as soon as they shift focus from brooding to storing (you notice your comb is getting fatter), move the honey bars up next to that last bar and let them have their space. Through the season you can experiment by putting an bar into the brood nest between your two best small cell combs, and see what happens. You might get lucky and they'll build a brood comb, or you might end up getting a honey comb right in the middle of the brood nest. If that happens I let them start capping it so it does grow any bigger, and then move it to the back of the brood area (since its 1 1/4" bar). Any honey that I have on 1 1/4" I leave in the hive for winter, anything on 1 1/2" I take for myself.

Next year you will be able to open the brood nest up a bit because you will have the bees earlier in the year, and they'll more readily build brooding comb earlier in the spring than they will at the end of spring. My brood nests in the first year were 6-10 bars, and in the second year they are 8-15 bars.

Don't forget to cull nasty combs right away. The bees tend to make more of a mess the longer you leave them in.

[AlpineJean]

Great - Thanks guys. I think I know what to do about the bars now!
So, here are three new questions smile.gif
a. how do I feed the package when it comes till I can install them - paintbrush the sugar water on the cage, spritz it w/ a sprayer, ...
b. what kind of knife do you use to cut the comb away from the walls etc - just any sharp thin knife - maybe like a fish filet knife
c. has anyone used small cell wax covered plastic foundation,it's sturdy, cut to about 1/2 to 2/3 of the depth of the hive and at the proper angle as starter on a few bars to set the spacing and centering? I know usually the starters are less than 1/2 inch but I just wondered about this crazy notion of mine... :D

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Alpine,
The foundation will probably work just fine, though I don't use any at all. I am many other think its best to let them draw their own comb.

I also don't use a detaching tool any longer either, once one gets accustomed to doing it right, removing the attachments is a matter of how you pull the comb out. If you work it loose instead of just pulling it up and out, the attachments break on their own. I don't like sticking something into the hive without knowing what I am hitting. Killing bees is one best way to get them angry at you.

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi Dick:

<Also a question for BerkeyDavid. Did you rig up a float of some sort in your internal feeder to keep the bees from drowning?

No, instead I took some screen and stuffed it in so there was like a ramp inside from bottom to top.

First one I just threw in some wood scraps that would float. The later models have the screen. No idea if it works! To find out I guess you would have to rip it apart! But it made me feel better!

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi Alpine. Hi guys! Here's my 2 bits on a Friday when I should be working...

a. how do I feed the package when it comes till I can install them - paintbrush the sugar water on the cage, spritz it w/ a sprayer, ...

I like to take a glue brush and brush HFCS (or whatever you are feeding them) right on the cage wires. It is fun at first to watch and see when they are done taking it.

b. what kind of knife do you use to cut the comb away from the walls etc - just any sharp thin knife - maybe like a fish filet knife

I just use the hive tool.


c. has anyone used small cell wax covered plastic foundation,it's sturdy, cut to about 1/2 to 2/3 of the depth of the hive and at the proper angle as starter on a few bars to set the spacing and centering? I know usually the starters are less than 1/2 inch but I just wondered about this crazy notion of mine...

No. But I have an idea for a new top bar system. Basically you just take 2 pieces of 3/4" stock, planed down smaller if necessary (more later on this). Then rip it to the HEIGHT of your top bar. So if you want a 3 " tall top bar, rip it in 3" strips. Then sandwich your starter strip between two of these strips. Whatever you are using for foundation. IT could be small cell foundation, it could be a scrap of plywood. They sell a 1/16" or maybe even 1/32" plywood at the hobby store.

Whatever you decide to use for your starter. Or mix and match and see what they like. You could even do a full sheet of foundation.

Anyway, whatever the thickness of your starter strip, you then might have to plane down your outer sandwich layers to get your final 1 3/8 or whatever.

You could also rip the TB's at an angle to give a sharp edge, with or without a starter.

Then you screw or glue or nail the two halves together.

I also have been thinking about an easier design for Top Bar hives, cheaper easier and foolproof. I will try to draw it out this weekend.

[Dick Allen]

Well David, I guess you'll know in a couple of years if it works or not. If it seems to fill faster than you remember and has a putrid odor, well......

I like your triangular design to fit internally and probably will make one (down the road) for my tbh. I think, though, I'll build it so the top of the feeder can be popped in and out for cleaning. I guess for now, I'm going to use a top feeder and if that gives me problems then will go to the baggies.

[Scotty]

Here are the pictures for the install I did. The pictures on the third page are the ones of the Top Board Hive.

http://www.total-x.org/index.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=17

[BerkeyDavid]

Dick

I took the feeder out middle of the summer. No odor!

[AlpineJean]

Hi Ya'll - When I dump the bees in the hive I am assuming that some will still be in the shipping cage so should I just set it outside near the entrance for them to go on in when they can?
I painted the hive w/ some $5/gallon mistinted paint - it is mauve/rose colored :)... probably the only KTBH that color in Texas maybe the world. My husband put a horseshoe that he found in the aisle of the barn just above their entrance. We put it in place today awaiting the bees.... Bee-ginners are funny, huh.
Hasta, AJ

[MIKI]

AJ,
There are two good ways to install bees in a TBH (probably a lot more).
1. Take out the Queen cover the hole with something. Prepare the queen cage and hang her in the center of the brood nest. Pull the feed can and shake the bees in and put the empty cage infront of the hive and watch the rest march in.

2. Rig the Queen as described above, pull the feed can and just put the cage in your TBH and come back in a couple of days and clean up.

A variation on the above is directly releasing the queen. I am sure every keeper has his/her perfered method just find what works for you.

I was wondering about your bar size problem. Did you take into consideration the thickness of your saw blade. If you draw a fat pencil line then cut on the wrong side it can make a big difference. In construction you will often hear a carpenter shout a measurment like "17 and 3/4 heavy" to the guy on the ground cutting it means leave the line on.

[AlpineJean]

Hello again,

Is the glue that is used in a glue gun toxic to bees (once it's dried of course)?

Thanks