Any Top-Bar hive users?

[jlk]

Just wondering if there was any body using top-bar hives,and maybe their experiences with them?I have two of them and three lang-style hives.Thanks JOHN

[tworedroseman]

John, Noticed you are from Ala. I'm in P'cola and just finishing a top bar hive for swarm introduction this spring. Have you seen the hive in use by Peter Springhall, at www.kentbee.com/bromley (http://www.kentbee.com/bromley) ? I am in the process of completing a hive similar to his and plan to introduce the bees onto 4.9mm foundation. Will cut full sheets to fit the hive body.

Made my hive with slight modifications: put in a screened botton with a slide in winter wind blocker; have had good reports on the use of screened bottom board for mite control. The topbar hive will be a new experience for me. Have had bees in the past in standard hives; in fact, I have just completed four hive bodies, screened bottom boards and one shallow super. Will most likely not need even a second hive body since I will have the hives in town.

Read that there are bee keepers in N.Y. City and if they can produce honey thought that I might also

Trying to figure out a simple way to make 4.9mm foundation. Thinking along the lines of two fiberglass pads laid up from each side of a sheet of foundation. Would require some type of spacer and then simple clamping to impress the foundation form onto a sheet of wax. May begin on that project soon. R.M.M.

[Barry]

> Trying to figure out a simple way to make 4.9mm foundation. Thinking along the
> lines of two fiberglass pads laid up from each side of a sheet of foundation.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/foundation/index.htm

-Barry

[Michael Bush]

I have tried them in the past. I usually make the top bars an even 1 1/2 because I can rip up scrap 2 bys for top bars. My first experiments were in about 1976. I used sloped sides because of references I found to baskets used by the Greeks. This worked well. You have to be more gentle with the combs. You can't go flipping them around like you do frames and you can't extract them.

The tricky part is getting the bees to build on the bars. I've done several things that worked. One is a starter strip. You just cut a groove and put a narrow strip of foundation in the groove. I use a "wax tube" from Walter T. Kelly to wax it in. Another method is to cut the bar so it angles to the middle. This is only about 3 degrees or so, but it makes a ridge in the middle. The tricky part of this is the woodworking is more complex. you have to cut the slope and you have to come back and cut a notch in the slope for the ends to be flat again. I rub the ridge with bees wax. This seems to work. I have heard of people dipping string in wax and laying it on the bars in a straight line down the middle. I have NOT tried this, but it might work. I don't run the wax to the edge because you want them to stop before they get there.

I have just built a trough hive of Langstroth width, so I can use frames and top bars. I'm not sure if they will connect the sides. It is a pain working with solid top bars (as in no gap between the tops) because if they cross comb anything you can't tell until you broken it all up. Mostly you have to be more gentle, but that's a step in a good direction anyway.

[Michael Bush]

I have kept bees in a sloped sided top bar hive. I tried several things for the bars (which I think it the hard step). I tried making them sloped to the middle (which isn't too bad if you have a plane, but is a little difficult) and rubbing the peak with beeswas, I tried grooving them and putting in a starter strip of foundation. Both of these worked well. If you don't do something to get the bees to build in the middle it won't work too well. I made my bars 1 1/2" wide beacuse it was easy to make them from scrap 2 bys. As long as you have something down the middle for the bees to start on this spacing works fine, although most people reccomend 1 3/8". I'm sure 1 3/8" works fine too.

I'm going to try them in a straight sided trough hive built to Lanstroth diminsions so I can mix the top bars with regular frames. I'm hoping I can do my brood and extracted honey in frames and my comb honey on top bars. I've read from people who are using them that the straight sided ones work as well as the sloped ones.

Here are some sties on top bar hives:
http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/ktbh.htm http://outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/kenya.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/images/ktbhplan.gif http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm http://www.kentbee.com/bromley/teaching.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/5.htm

I like not having to buy foundation and it's intersting to watch what the bees build without much of my intervention.

[dragonfly]

I'm a novice beekeeper and just have two hives (until next year). One of them is a Lang, the other is a top bar hive that I converted from an old Lang body (I cut top bars to go across the narrower width so the entrance would be aligned parallel with the bars). The more interesting hive to observe is the top bar, imo, eventhough the frame hive is supposed to be more productive. I won't really know until next year because I won't start harvesting any honey until then. I used 1x2's to make the top bars, and secured a one inch strip of foundation along the top of each which seems to work very well.

Michael- have you been able to find any good info on building a honey press? Did you build yours? The only info I have found is not descriptive enough for me to use in construction, and the photos were too poor to really see how it works. Thanks for any info.

[Michael Bush]

I already raise a lot of comb honey and I have frame hives, so I was just going to use the top bars for comb and the frames for extracted honey. But, if it was me, I'd just buy an uncapping tank (the small hobbiest ones) or make one out of wood. Put a layer of wire screen door screen on top of the queen excluder (that is usually used for these) and just mash the combs with your hands. Squeeze them into a ball in your fist. I did this for years before I bought an extractor. You put the squished combs (squeeze as much honey out as you can first) on the screen and let them drain. The comercial uncapping rigs like this have a honey gate on them for bottling, so you just run it out into the bottles. You may think it's messy, but you get honey all over your hands no matter what anyway.

I've never used a press, but they might be better, and they might not.

Instead of running the bars width ways, I would have run the bars the length of the lang and built a bottom board going the other way. That way you could use frames anytime you feel like it. All of my lang bottom boards already go long ways.

[dragonfly]

The main reason I built the bars to go across the shorter width was (actually a couple of reasons)... anyway, I wanted the entrance to be across the shorter distance for ease of handling the combs. I am under the impression that they build the brood area near the entrance with honey storage at the back, and this gives them more depth. I also didn't want to close the entrance I already have and cut out a new one or build a new bottom board. Primary reason- I got the bees late in the season and wanted to give them a minimal space to fill, hoping they will be able to winter over adequately until I can place them in a larger hive with standard size bars next spring. Made sense to me, but then I am new at this. LOL

[This message has been edited by dragonfly (edited August 09, 2002).]

[Michael Bush]

I do like the bars running paralell to the entrance, which is why I build and buy bottom boards that way. (yes you can buy them from www.beeworks.com (http://www.beeworks.com) with the ventilation kit for a langstroth). I'm sure it will work fine for you. I've just found that sticking with standardization keep so many more options open.

[BWrangler]

Hi Michael and Everyone,

Any new thoughts on topbar hive design since building one earlier this year?

Are the frames truely interchangeable or do the bees prefer to put different types of comb/cells in different locations?

I think the only way for me to see what the bees do naturally is to build a top bar hive. Besides I have been interested in them since the mid 70's and love building neat bee stuff.

I am really interested in the overwintering aspects. Talking with others with some experience with top bar hives, they indicated the bees may have some problem relocating the winter cluster horizontally.


Best Wishes
Dennis

[dragonfly]

Dennis- Here in Texas, I will be surprised if over-wintering in TBH's will be a problem, but since I'm new to this, I could very well be wrong. In your area, it would be a much different story. You could probably come up with an insulating system that would really help them out. As far as the frames being interchangeable in the hive I recently built, it will be interchangeable, but requires a small modification in construction because of the 3/4 inch thickness of the front and back hive body boards, so there ends up being a small gap if you want to use a standard hive body as compared to one you measure and cut to your needs. To be frank, speaking from an amature viewpoint, I am much more impressed with the TBH in the speed with which the bees build their own comb from scratch as compared to drawing out foundation. Maybe I just have an exceptionally industrious group of workers on my hands, but they have far surpassed my expectations in the short time I have had them.

[Michael Bush]

>Any new thoughts on topbar hive design since building one earlier this year?
I'm going with a mixture of top bars and frames. They are pretty interchangable. Mostly I'm using frames. I'm trying to get the bees regressed and I want to be able to extract any 4.9mm or eve 5.1mm frames of honey and use them for brood.

>Are the frames truely interchangeable or do the bees prefer to put different types of comb/cells in different locations?
They tend to put the brood toward the front and the honey fills out toward the back, but you can move things where you think you want them. You do have to watch them connecting the sides. They won't fill them in solid (if your starter doesn't run all the way to the edge) but they will connect them here and there and they combs are more fragile so you have to cut the brace comb on the sides loose before doing to much. You just have to pay more attention to what you're doing.


>I think the only way for me to see what the bees do naturally is to build a top bar hive. Besides I have been interested in them since the mid 70's and love building neat bee stuff.

You can also put starter strips in frames and see what they build. If you really want to just see what they do naturally, build a box the size of a langstroth deep with one wall made of plexiglass. I use 2x2's to build a frame to hold the plexiglass on. Now take a scrap of plywood and cut it to fit over the frame or in the hole where the plexiglass is so you can shut the "shutters" on the window. Put a bunch of 2x2's or 1x2's on the top like a top bar hive, but don't put in any starter strips. That way they can build anywhere they want. You can watch through the window. You can set the box up on it's side to cut out comb honey. If you cut carefully you can get where you can take a 1x2 off the top to get access there. It's a fun experiment. It's a mess, but not as bad as you might think.

>I am really interested in the overwintering aspects. Talking with others with some experience with top bar hives, they indicated the bees may have some problem relocating the winter cluster horizontally.
I haven't overwintered a horizontal hive yet. The top bar boxes I've built in the past I used as a super or I moved the bees to a regular hive. I'm not sure I'll have a hive built up enough to overwinter in a horizontal box this winter. I may have to move the bars/frames into a regular langstroth deep and stack them on top of a healthy hive with a double screen wire. Hopefully I'll have a good strong one next winter to see. I am worried a bit about how they will do. But wild bees seem to survive in worse situations all the time.

[BWrangler]

Hello Dragonfly and Michael

Thanks for the ideas and insight. I often run an observation hive and a hive with a plexiglass inner cover at my home. The modified super will be easy to build and a usefull addition. Must also build that TBH next year too. Now, I'm really going to have some fun. :> )

My small cell experience shows how important the comb is and cell size is only one aspect. You TBH guys are in a great position to contribute much to the understanding of its effects on bee behavior. Maybe I've been running on plastic foundation and lots of assumption much to the detriment of the bees.

As the bees put most of the brood toward the front of the hive, is most of the smaller cell comb found there with larger cell comb toward the rear? Or do the bees construct each comb similiar with a central area of smaller cells surrounded by drone and larger cells?

If combs toward the rear of the hive are primary larger cell,what happens when the hive expands in size? Is the comb toward the rear of the hive reworked to provide more worker size cells?

I have also read elsewhere that the bees seem to draw out the comb faster in TBHs than in regular hives. I wonder what is frustrating them in the standard hive?

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited August 24, 2002).]

[Jane _nu_B]

In process of building our first tbh, making it with straight sides,large enough to hold 30 tb's and using standard hive dimensions so that regular frames will work in tbh. Just purchased a book by Roger A. Morse titled ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture. It states that top bar bee hives are "a bad idea in hive construction that appears repeatedly in the beekeeping press". Any tbh users agree with this statement?

[Michael Bush]

There are advantages and disadvantages. One big plus is the cost. You can build top bars easily. Frames are much more difficult to make. If you use scrap lumber to build the hives and bars you could have a hive for just the labor. if you use a sheet of masonite soaked in water, dipped in wax to make blank wax starter strips you don't have to buy foundation. In a top bar hive you still have the advantages of comb manipulation as opposed to just having bees in a box and combs every which way. If you want cut comb honey or you want a lot of wax, then top bars work pretty well.

TBH Pros:
Cheap. If you put it in a trough hive at waist level (which most TBH's are but you could do with frames also) then you don't have to bend over or lift so high.

Easy to build.

More natural. The whole 4.9mm vs 5.4mm cell size is more of a Lanstroth frame hive issue. Most TBH users only do starter strips and the bees build what they want.

TBH Cons:
The frames are easier to break loose if they are burred or cross combed. If you are not careful with a TBH you'll beake the comb loose from the top.

The frames are easier to manipulate than TBH's. You can't flip a TBH comb sidways or it will break off from the top. You have to be more careful.

You can't extract easily. The combs are, as already mentioned, much more fragile because they are not reinforced with wire, they are not reinforced by a frame around them and therfore they break easily. You can't spin them in an extractor. It is a big advantage to have some drawn comb around when a brood nest gets honey bound or you're trying to start a new hive.

The old timers who write ABC XYZ of bee culture and the other old books, were trying to get people to stop using what they percieved as "old fashioned" practices. They believed that beekeeping should progress into the 20th century. Extraction, frames, standardization, modularization were the future. This is their perception.

My opinion is that frames are easier to work with. Frames are more advanced technology. You have to be more careful with a comb on a top bar, but I like the self sufficiency of being able to make my own. If you like simplicity and self sufficiency top bar hives make sense.

There is nothing wrong with a top bar hive. I assume you've seen Satterfields web site. http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm
There are a lot of good links here also.

I have done something similar to what you are doing. I built a long box of Lanstroth dimensions so I can put frames or top bars in it. Mine is as long as two Lanstroth boxes (21 frames or bars) and put it on a table that acts as a bottom board and I use deep boxes behind it as supers. The bottom board is 19 7/8" wide so the boxes go sideways from what a Lanstroth usually is.

I have also built one long hive the size of four Lanstroths, but haven't put any bees in it yet.

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Roger Morse besided being a professor was also a small commercial beekeeper dealing with extracted honey and his priorities such as maximum flexibility and resale value reflect that focus.

Hobbiest like myself have a whole different set of priorities.

If you like to build stuff and want to learn about the bees then a long hive or tbh is a good choice. I will build a couple of them this winter myself.

Another thought, build it at least 26 frames long. That way the standard deep frame could be oriented either perpendicular or paralled to the narrow end of the hive. Is it important? I don't know.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

Acutally I forgot one other disadvantage. It's difficult to move a top bar hive. If you get enough people to lift it (it's usually long and heavy) then you have the problem of the fragile combs breaking as you drive down bumpy roads.

[Hook]

I want to build a tbh myself. I think it is just another aspect to explore. After removing the swarms from odd places, like walls, comb construction fascinates me. I think it really shows the housel positioning as well. Much can be learned. I do know one thing though, the drone cells were alot larger in the "wild" than what I am used too. Think it will be interesting to see.


------------------
Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA

[dragonfly]

Yeah, I was surprised at how large the drone cells are too. At one point, I was convinced that I had a laying worker because the drone comb section was larger than I am used to, but it all turned out okay. The queen was doing just fine. The top bar hives are infinitely more interesting to me, but they are a little more difficult to work because you have to be meticulous when removing the top bars and make sure they are not connected heavily to the sides of the hive. My favorite size of the ones I have built is the size of two deep supers with the bars parallel to the entrance. Next spring, I will add another same size hive on top of this one for harvesting. I have seen photos of top bars with a curved board basically turning it into a frame of sorts that would make manipulation simpler. It looks like an archer's bow, but I need to find thin strips of wood that I can soften and curve the size I need. Any ideas?

[Michael Bush]

>I have seen photos of top bars with a curved board basically turning it into a frame of sorts that would make manipulation simpler. It looks like an archer's bow, but I need to find thin strips of wood that I can soften and curve the size I need. Any ideas?

If it was me the two things I'd try are to just take a sapling or small tree branch and leave it round and bend it for the bow. Or take one a little bigger around and split it down the middle with a pocket knife. It takes a bit of practice to do, but if you work the knife with the handle at right angles you can go one way or the other and make the split follow the center of the branch. If you leave them round you can just drill a round hole at both ends of the bar to insert the bow in. I'd use something about 1/4" to 3/8" in diameter. If you do this, it's tempting to also make the hive with sloping sides or a half round bottom. Although it's not necessary. If the bees build some on the bottom of the bow it won't lessen it's reinforcement properties.

[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 14, 2002).]

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Hot water and sometimes steam is used to soften wood. That's how our ancestors built those beautiful curved chair backs, etc.

Techniques similiar to those used by basket makers and probably the same kinds of wood could easily be split and shaped that way.

Strips cut on a table saw could also be shaped this way.

Let us know what you come up with.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[Jane _nu_B]

We have our tbh almost completed, now trying to figure out what kind of foundation to use as a starter strip. Is there a need to use brood comb foundation in the nest area,and then cut comb foundation in the honey part of the hive, or do you use the same foundation throughout the entire hive.I'm sure if youv'e read this far you know I'm very new at this, but it's something that has me confused.

[Barry]

Jane -

I hope I can sway you into not using any foundation or using 4.9 starter strips. Some are having pretty good results with the use of 4.9 comb and not needing chemicals to treat for mites. I'm planning to put my 4.9 bees into a long hive (20 frames wide) using standard frames but using 1" starter strips of wax with no imprint on them and let them do their thing.

Regards,
Barry

[Michael Bush]

My point about the saplings is you can bend them. You don't have to soak them or steam them etc. Just peel the bark and bend them.

>We have our tbh almost completed, now trying to figure out what kind of foundation to use as a starter strip. Is there a need to use brood comb foundation in the nest area,and then cut comb foundation in the honey part of the hive, or do you use the same foundation throughout the entire hive.I'm sure if youv'e read this far you know I'm very new at this, but it's something that has me confused.

If you want to go the easy way I'd use a pair of sissors and cut 4.9mm foundation into starter strips. I don't know how you did your top bars. Most have a slit down the middle. I've done them that way and I've done them with a slope to the middle by cutting them in a shallow "V" shape. If you have the "V" shape you can just rub it with bees wax down the peak (which when put in will be down). If you have a groove you'll either have to fill it with wax (a wax tube fastener from Walter T. Kelly would would do well) or put in a strip. If you use a strip of 4.9mm foudation you won't have to make the foundation. Otherwise, You can take a piece of masonite that is smooth on both sides and dip it in wax server times to make two shees of plain wax (plain as in no embossing) then peel them off of the masonite and cut them into strips. Personally that's what I intend to do, because I want to see what the bees build as far as orientation of the cells (see Housel Positioning other places on this board).

If you don't give the bees some direction they will build every which way.

[jlk]

Hi everybody,nice to see so much interest in top-bar hives.I make my starter strips by cutting a groove in the bottom of the top- bar(table saw,an eigth inch deep and wide)Then I just drip a bead of hot wax into the groove.thats it the bees do the rest,have had alot of success with this.They build the size cells they need.Only have one tbh going into this winter,its one i have had going for about three years,seems very healthy again this year.Got lots of wax and a couple of gallons of honey from it this summer.The other one swarmed out and was slowly taken over by waxmoths,I broke it down and cleaned it up for next years splits.Lang type hives are more efficient,but the tbh are interesting and if you want wax they are great....JOHN

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Just getting down to the construction details for my tbh. What are your thoughts concerning the interior angles for the sloping sides of the tbh? What kind of angles do you have experience with?

Thanks
Dennis

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Just another thought on tbh construction. If the hive is constructed so that at about 10 inches below the top of the hive, it is at least 18 inches wide, a standard deep frame could be fastened to bottom of a top bar and inserted in the tbh.

Happy tbhiving
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

My previous top bar hives I put an angle on the walls of about 15 degrees or so off from vertical. Of course if you are measuring from horizontal that is 105 degrees or so. I don't remember now exactly, but that sounds about right from what they looked like. It seems like the exact number was 17 degrees. But I'm sure it was in that vicinity.

However, I'm currently running some in a standard Langstroth box with top bars in it. The sides are straight and so far they haven't connected it. Of course I put my grooves in the top bars to only as wide as standard foundation and waxed it in. The bees stopped before the sides so far. I'm not sure what they will do when the box gets more crowded but Satterfield (http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm) says it's no worse with straight sides.

I have seen some attachment even when I did the 17 degrees, but not much and you could detach things as long as you were slow and gentle (as you should be anyway). The advatages of using a standard box are that I can mix frames and top bars interchangably, and I can put shallow supers on if I have some frames or notched top bars to let them into the super. Also I can reuse the boxes in either top bar or frame configuration. Also I can buy boxes if I want.

[jlk]

Hi beekeepers,My tbh are straight sided,I got alot of inspiration from Sattersfields sight.There is some attatchment at the top of the comb,sometimes,but it is easily loosened up with a hive tool,or I keep an old serated knife in my tool box,and run down the side with it ,looosening several tob -bars at once,while working the hive.I built mine to dimensions that would fit either top bars or lang-frames.The only thing is if you end up with alot of frames in it you have to create a wrap around top, to close the openings somewhat.I did this with a piece of plywood and 1by2 band around it.It fits snugly over the top-bars and the frames,almost like an inner cover...JOHN

[Michael Bush]

Yes, you can't depend on the bars to seal it up if you use frames. I use standard inner covers with extra vent holes in them and cover all the holes with hardware cloth. Then I put vent boxes on top of that (like a shallow super with a peice of plywood on top and holes around with hardware cloth). Mine are on a table horizontally and only one box deep (usually) so you could just as easily use standard migratory covers.

[Barry]

Hi all -

Been thinking about how do make my TBH this winter. Not having had one before, one tends to think over all the possibilities in hopes of improving on anothers and making the BEST TBH around. Haha, what a pipe dream, right? I enjoy all the ideas being thrown out here.

I think for myself, there needs to be a bottom that can open for periodic cleaning. I also want to design it in such a way where there won't be comb attaching to the sides. Two ways of accomplishing this it seems. Attention to the angle or slope of the hive sides, and/or using frames instead of just top bars.

One thought I had was to cut the two end boards in the shape of a half circle trying to mimic the shape of natural comb. Then take either 1x2, 1x3, 1x4's the length you want the hive, say 4 feet, and simply attach the ends of the boards to each end board creating the cavity. You could get fancy and even rip the correct angle on the edge of each 1x so they all fit tight together, but this seems overkill.

The other idea is to make a top bar that has a shoulder on each end where a thin slot is cut across the width of the bar (1-3/8"). Rip some pieces of wood that are about 1/16" thick and long enough to go from bar end to bar end with a nice hanging curve below the bar, creating a sort of frame. This would give the bees a boundry for the comb and add some strength to the bars/comb also. I hope to make one up this weekend and see how it works.

Regards,
Barry

[dragonfly]

http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/KTBH.html

THe above site is a pretty good one for general ideas about building top bar hives with angled sides. Mine all have straight sides, mostly because of the ease of building, but the guy who does the Cal-Kenyan hives has experimented quite a bit and has come up with what I consider some great ideas.

[Michael Bush]

I'll try to describe the table I have the boxes on. I have a long table (74" long). This is long enough for four standard Langstroth boxes. I have a double box on the front of this (32 1/2" x 19 7/8")and deep supers behind that box. The table is a frame three sides of 2 x 6 with a 2 x 4 for the cross peice in the front. I cut two dado's for the bottom. This allows me to slide a piece of plywood in for the actual botom and slide it out for cleaning (since the double box is too heavy to lift). Since I have two dados (one 3/4" down and the other 1 1/2" down) I can also slide in a screened bottom board for the top one and still have the option for a solid bottom board below it. I put an "entrace" block on the back of the last box on the table. If I was doing it again I'd make the table longer. It's nice to have space to move things around and still set it down on the table and not have to ever lift from the ground or to the ground or to or from anything higher than the table. The legs are 1 x 12 cut at an angle from 2" in at oppisite ends, so it makes two pieces 2" wide at one end and 9 1/4" wide at the other. These are screwed and glued in pairs at each corner with the wide end at the top. This makes a "V" looking down the leg from the top. It's very strong. Anyway, thought you might like the idea of the table with a bottom that slides out.

[Barry]

Okay guys, how about getting the camera out and taking a picture of your TBH. I'd love to start posting photos of all the different ways people are making TBH's. If you can, send me an email with either the photo attached as a jpg or ask me for an address to send by snail mail and I'll start putting them on a web page. More detail the better.

Regards,
Barry

[Barry]

Hi all -

This is to let you know that a TBH page has now been started. http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/index.htm

Photos of your TBH with comments are welcome.

How is it going with yours, Dennis? I will be posting some more of mine soon. I have it on a stand now, painted, and I'm currently making the top for it. I have the 1x4 hinged bottom on it and just need to make 2 follower boards for it to be complete. Next will be making up a small wax dipping trap so I can get my un-embossed sheets of wax.

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited November 24, 2002).]

[Michael Bush]

I finally got a digital camera, but it's dark when I leave for work and dark when I get home and it's been cloudy on the weekends. Hopefully I'll get some pictures.

Meanwhile, I do like the frames with the bow shaped bottom. It's the natural shape of a comb, it adds strength and is still easier to build from scratch than a regular frame is.

As to attachments to the side of the hive. I've noticed that you can paint whatever you don't want attached with FGMO and it will deter (but not prevent) attachments. It also weakens the attachments so you can break them loose easier and it cuts down on mites.

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

I have ordered a digital camera and will post the details on my first tbh. I have settled on a traditional Kenya type hive with sides sloped 17 degrees off of vertical. That seems to be best approximation to a catenary curve with a 24" span and 18" depth. The top bars will be like those Leonard uses in his CalKenya hive.

I like the idea of having the hives at a working level but will place mine close to the ground due to cattle and high wind conditions.

Had alot of fun hanging a string and generating different catenary curves. If you try it, a wet string works better than a dry one.

I hope to build a true catenary hive like the neat one Barry is building after finishing this one.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[dragonfly]

Looks great. The curve along the bottom of the frames is basically what I had in mind, but I still haven't started trying to construct them. Been busy building a permanent hive stand that will hold 5 or 6 hives. I figure I still have a couple of months to finish the bar frames in the top bar hive not currently in use. I plan to buy myself a dig cam for xmas and will send photos then. Thanks for posting this.

[Barry]

Hi Guys -

Pictures, they're great. I started putting Michael's page together at the link above. It shows just how creative we beekeepers are when it comes to equipment.

Michael, are you using pine for the construction? What are you using for preservative?

There is plenty of room for the rest of you to get busy with those new digital cameras and hive construction. Look forward to seeing them.

-Barry

[Michael Bush]

Yes, I used pine and scrap plywood for inner covers and bottom boards.

I accidently bought some exterior latex paint that was just base without color in it. I liked seeing the wood so I kept buying that. Some of it is weathering because I didn't get around to painting it.

I put scraps of plywood under the feet to keep them from rotting and to keep them from sinking in. You could use bricks or blocks and make the legs shorter.

My main goal in designing this was to minimize lifting. The top bars were to minimize both expense and maintanance. I don't have to clean frames and put foundation in them all the time. I am using a mixture of top bars and frames.

[BWrangler]

Hello Michael and Everyone,

Just looked at your beehive pictures. What neat ideas. I don't think I have ever seen a design which is so flexible and easily worked. Gives me much to think about.

The pictures add so much detail to your previous descriptions and are so sharp. What kind of camera did you use?

Thank You
Dennis

[Bigearl]

Where can I find the plans for a top bar hive? TIA
Earl

[This message has been edited by Admin (edited November 25, 2002).]

[Eich]

Micheal, When you remove frames for processing do you use a fowler bd with a bee escape to get the bees off the frames your taking or just remove the frames and shake them off? With out frames they could be fragile. Thanks for the great pictures. Darrell

[Barry]

Hi Earl -

There are several sites on the web that have TBH plans. Do a search and I'm sure you'll get several. I will make plans available on Beesource eventually but right now I'd like to gather as many different hive designs as possible and discuss them here before drawing anything up. Not yet having had experience with them, I'm not familiar with all the different pros and cons that need to be considered in designing one. I'll probably make several different styles available. First the experimenting stage has to happen.

Regards,
Barry

[Michael Bush]

>Just looked at your beehive pictures. What neat ideas. I don't think I have ever seen a design which is so flexible and easily worked. Gives me much to think about.

It took me almost 30 years to figure it out. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif Of course one contributing factor was that my back can't take as much as it used to. I also use DE hives and bodies on these tables. They are about 18.25" x 18.25" and still fit on this table. Plus I have varying widths Lanstroth sized supers, 3 frame, 4 frame 5 frame and 10 frame. You could also use 8 frame to cut the weight of each box. You can use any depth, but I'd standardize on Deeps myself. The only criteria is you have to have a lid that is no wider than the box (like a migratory cover). My next set of tables will be eight feet long. The materials come out better (if they are new) and you have some spare area on the back of the table to juggle equipment without setting it on the ground. Also you can keep spare equipment on the back of the table. Of course, you can also do what I'm doing now, which is, have some extra tables around.

>The pictures add so much detail to your previous descriptions and are so sharp. What kind of camera did you use?

Acutally I scaled the resolution down a lot so they would fit on a web page and not be as large. I took them with a Cannon PowerShot S330 Digital ELPH. It's a nice small size and the only thing I don't like about it is it takes a proprietary battery.

>where can I find plans for a top bar hive. http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/main.htm http://nanaimo.ark.com/~cberube/images/ktbhplan.gif
Or mine which is just to build a long table bottom board and use standard equipment with top bars in place of frames or mixed with frames. The other ones I built are a long box (the size of four Lanstroth hives side by side) with rabbets for top bars (or frames) a groove at the right depth for the space at the bottom of the frames (10 3/8" down from the top) and a bottom board that slides in. You can add a 2" by 2" down the outside of the length to stiffen the 1" by 12" so it won't warp. http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/index.htm

Also, I didn't specify this in the description of the observation hive, but the plexiglass is difficult to cut without getting a relly fine plywood blade and using it with the teeth backwards. Also you have to drill holes in the plexiglass for the screws that are larger than the screw diameter or the screw will break the plexiglass. My hardward store will cut the plexiglass to fit also, so I don't always have to cut it.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 25, 2002).]

[Michael Bush]

>Micheal, When you remove frames for processing do you use a fowler bd with a bee escape to get the bees off the frames your taking or just remove the frames and shake them off? With out frames they could be fragile. Thanks for the great pictures. Darrell

Sometimes I don't have time to mess with a bee escape in which case I brush them off with a bee brush. No you can't shake them off the top bars or the comb will break. You also have to be careful to keep the plane of the comb perpindicular to the ground. You can spin it in either direction but you can't lay the comb flat. This means you can turn it front to back. You can turn it upside down but only if you make sure the comb stays in a line perpindicular to the ground. I'm not sure how to say this clearly, but it's ok to have the bar on the bottom and the bottom of the comb on the top. It is never ok to have turn it so that the plane of the comb ends up horizontal to the ground. This will break if it has much honey in it. I use a frame grip on my top bars when brushing them off, because the top bars are more difficult to hold on to and not break them than frames, but you could probably brush them off without it if you are careful. You'd have to hold the end of the bar and let it han at whatever natural angle it wants to and then brush it with the other hand.

Usually I use the triangular bee escape (don't know if it has someone's name on it). It's the only kind of escape I've had good luck with. On the table version you just put the bee escape board on the back of the table and set the super on it. Even if I'm using the long trough type hive, which has no seperate boxes, I build it to take standard Lanstroth frames, or top bars of the same size, so I can pull the frames or bars out and put them in a deep Lansgroth box over a triangular bee escape that is on a standard bottom board. In fact I'm likely to stack this on the front of the trough hive if I'm stealing it out of the back of the hive and then leave it a couple of days before I come back to it. Of course the standard for bee escapes is to make sure there is NO brood in the frames you're trying to clear or the bees will not leave. Sometimes I'll put a triangular escape on the top and the bottom. Just make sure it's bee tight when you do (except for the escape) and the escapes are on the right way (the top one is upside down compared to the bottom one. They seem to come out the top faster, I think because of the light coming in. If I do both it will usually be pretty clear in 24 hours. Of course it's never totally clear, so you have to brush a few bees off.

Also, I'll mention what to me is the obvious. When robbing a top bar hive, or even inspecting it you have to unlearn some habits. With a frame you can just pull it loose even if it's cross combed or has a lot of burr. The frame keeps the main comb together for you. You can't do this with top bar hives. You have to be gentle, see where it's attached and cut the attachments. It's not that they attach it more, they do it with the frames, but it doesn't matter as much. I have a old small meat cleaver that I sharpened on the end (tip?). It acts like a hive tool, because you can pry with it, but it also works for cutting comb loose. You will need to add a knife to your tool kit to do top bars.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 25, 2002).]

[Russ]

Hi All, In reading Micheal's post about the meat cleaver, I have an old Butcher Knife about 10 or12" long that I use for cutting comb. Another tool to keep track of. Dale

[Michael Bush]

Barry fixed the one picture that didn't have the link. If you click on it now you'll see the complete hive and a description of it.

[Michael Bush]

>In reading Micheal's post about the meat cleaver, I have an old Butcher Knife about 10 or12" long that I use for cutting comb. Another tool to keep track of. Dale

Not sure if you mean it as a bad thing that you have to keep track of it? Anyway, that's what I like about my meat cleaver. It's not another tool to keep track of, it replaces my hive tool.

[dragonfly]

The following site is where I got the ideas for the top bar hives I have built. I built the first one very similar to the one pictured, then the next one, I made longer (36 inches). What I have found is that the shorter one seems to be holding up better as far as holding it's shape and straightness. This design seems to be particularly suited for hives in hot climates because of the ventilation. http://www.xscd.com/tbh/

[Michael Bush]

When I've built really long box type hives (with the legs attached to the box) I have put 2 x 2 s across the middle or across the top and bottom on the outside, to stiffen it. I glue it and screw it with deck screws. This helps with the warping in the middle so your bars don't fit anymore because the width changed.

[Bigearl]

Thank you all for the information on top bar hives. I have checked each link and have decided that it is going to be my next project.
Earl

[beekeeper28]

Hello,
I am basically a new beekeeper. I have always been interested in beekeeping, reading articles and taking courses from our local beekeeping club (NEOBA. This spring was my first year to have hives I started with a nuc, and found a swarm. I have been dismayed through out the last two years at the cost of beekeeping. So this year I begin to look for alternatives to the Langs. No one in our area is familar w/ any other method. However when talking to my Grandmother, she would tell me about her Dad's hives and what they looked like as best as she could recall.

So I started searching for something that matched her discriptions. I found James Satterfield's site.

From spring to now I'm positive that I don't like working w/ Langs. To heavy, costly for a hobbist. Besides I like comb honey.

Today I found this group, which has answered a lot of my questions. One that I still have is what is what are you coating the sides with, I don't understand the abbrivations letters.

Anyways - Very Good Information Thanks. I think I ready to venture out and try this type of hive reguardless of the styrotopes of this being the backwards way of beekeeping. To me costly, heavy and unnatural concept is outdated. Happy Thanksgiving

[dragonfly]

Are you asking what to coat the outside of the hive with? I use oil base paint, 2 coats over a base coat of primer. On one of my hives, I used spar urethane and it turned out beautiful. I think Michael Bush (I think that's who it was) said in another thread that he uses exterior latex paint. I'm sure either would do fine. I just have better luck with oil base in outside projects. I'm glad you have enjoyed reading the posts on this thread. It has been very informative.

[Michael Bush]

I think you are refering to my reference to FGMO. That is Food Grade Mineral Oil. If you are a large beekeeper you can figure out how to get it in bulk, but if you're a small beekeeper, just buy the mineral oil at the drug store that is labeled for use as a laxitive. NOT baby oil. I think you could also use vegatable oil but the research on mites is using FGMO and that is what I use. I paint the inside of the sides sometimes and it just keeps the attachments from sticking as well and helps with the mites.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 28, 2002).]

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Have you seen the new pictures of Barry's tbh? Check out the removable bottom and the modified tbh frames.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/birkey/index.htm

I can tell he had lots of fun building this one. Is this the best tbh yet?

Just one drawback though, it will still be at least 3 or more months before bees can occupy it :> )

Dennis
Seeing some neat stuff

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Just finished building the trough for my Kenya style top bar hive. Will build the frames sometime this week and post some pictures. I will use a T shaped frame with a vertical piece to help reinforce the comb.

Hope everyone is well on their way with a tbh. Spring is just around the corner for most and it's just about time to catch those swarms in the south.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

A lot of you are going to a lot of trouble to reinforce the comb. While this is probably ok, I'm not sure it's necessary.

It just takes some adjustment in your technique to not overstress the comb by trying to turn it flat ways. As long as you rotate it while it's still hanging down, it's not that hard to handle. It just requires you to think a little differently.

Also you have to think differently when pulling a comb loose. Where a frame can be just pulled out and the burr comb breaks but not the main comb, in a top bar hive you have to cut most of those burrs so they don't tear the main comb apart. Again, this is just an adjustment in technique.

I do hope all of you with your hoops and vertical braces let us know how well they work. I am curious whether they are worth the extra work. Part of the appeal of a TBH for me is less labor. Less boxes to lift, less frames to assemeble less frames to clean, less foundation to put in etc. My top bars are just a 1 by ripped to 3/8" thick with a shallow groove cut down the middle for waxing a starter strip. I like how simple they are to make.

[txbeeguy]

I have a few photos of my first TBH located on my yahoo profile: //profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

I used scrap wood so the cost was "free". The cover will be one of those plastic ridged panels (like you see as skylights in some barns or metal shop buildings.

The angled sides are 22 deg off the verticle and the top bars are 19" long (so they will fit in a lang box if needed). It will hold 30 top bars and the 'follower board' in a snug fit (but I still will use the plastic cover for additional protection against the rain and sun).

[Barry]

> I do hope all of you with your hoops and vertical braces let us know how well
> they work. I am curious whether they are worth the extra work.

I am curious too! The hoops and braces is just the bane of my perfectionism. Perhaps it is just overkill, only time will tell. Of course for me, all this "extra" work is not really work, it's fun and allows me creativity. Simple is good too.

Chomping at the bit for spring so I can stock it with bees.

Regards,
Barry

[Michael Bush]

>I have a few photos of my first TBH located on my yahoo profile: //profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

I looked at it. It's interesting. You have a very narrow bottom. I don't think I've seen one that narrow.

>I used scrap wood so the cost was "free". The cover will be one of those plastic ridged panels (like you see as skylights in some barns or metal shop buildings.

I wonder how the bees will respond to all the light? Maybe your bars are solid without notches? Then they wouldn't get much, but it will still incite them to do more of sealing the cracks between the bars when they see light.

>The angled sides are 22 deg off the verticle and the top bars are 19" long (so they will fit in a lang box if needed). It will hold 30 top bars and the 'follower board' in a snug fit (but I still will use the plastic cover for additional protection against the rain and sun).

All of the early top bar hives I built I went about 22 degrees also. I've given up an decided to just go with perpendicular sides. I haven't had them long enough to know what I think. Partly I wanted interchanability between Langs and the top bars. I agree with making it the same width for that reason.

Be sure you let us know what you love and hate about it after you get to use it.

[Michael Bush]

Here's how I started with top bar hives:

Back in the early 70's all the propaganda I'd ever read about hives said anything but a Lanstroth hive was stupid, dangerous, illegal, and backwards.

I'd read how the Greeks had built sloped walled basket hives with top bars on them. Since the hive was round, the bars weren't interchangable.

I was too poor to buy all the hives I wanted, and I was a carpenter with access to lots of small scraps of wood for free. So first I built a super that was the size of a Lang on the bottom (16 1/4") and sloped up. I used 1 x 12s for the sides. I used 2 x 2s for the bars. I put a bevel on them and waxed the bevel by just rubbing beeswax on it. Then I cut notched on the ends so the ends would be flat. I also cut grooves in some and put some foundation in it.

The bees happily worked this super. They drew the foundation a little quicker than the waxed bevel, but they drew them both. I had no extractor so getting comb honey was already the norm.

My next attempt was to make a bottom box that ended up at the standard Lang size on the top but was smaller on the bottom because of the slope. Then I drilled holes between the bars. I didn't go down the middle, as I see people doing now, I made two rows down a third of the way from the sides because I thought it would weaken it less (2 x 2 bars and I was worried about weakening them. lol) I drilled them with all the frames in the box. It looked a lot like txbeeguy's hive only shorter in length. Really narrow on the bottom. I used this for a brood box (it was really too small) and the super I already had on top of it. It worked ok. I just had to keep the brood nest from getting honey bound or they would swarm. I could use the sloped top bar super or a standard super on it. It was an interesting experiment. I pulled a couple of frames and let them move into the top box and retired the brood nest box, but still used the super on occasion.

I built another box the same as the first super and put it on top as a super. This made a kind of flare going up and then the next box was set in. I put 1 bys on the outsides to cover the exposed part of the top bars and put holes in the top bars so they could get into the super. This worked pretty wall also.

Eventually when I got more standard equipment, I moved them into that and just used the boxes for supers.

A year or two later I saw a Kenya hive in the ABJ and was surprised how much it resembled what I had built. At the time mine was vertical (like I was used to thinking) and theirs was horizontal. That was the first time I has seen an alternative to buying hives presented in a bee journal.

Recently I got interested again when I read Satterfield's pages and found out the sides could be straight instead of sloped. And now this site.

I also raised bees in a standard Lang sized box with 1 x 2 bars and no bevel, foundation or anthing else. If you wanted to rob it, you smoked it real heavy and gently set it on it's side and by cutting from the bottom or the top you'd get some honey comb out and free up some space. Sometimes you could get one of the bars off the top so you could see from both sides and cut comb out. It's not as bad as it sounds, but it was only an experiment. Eventually I cut all the brood comb out and put it in frames and robbed all the honey. But if it was the only way I had to raise bees, it would be worth doing.

[txbeeguy]

About the light: I decided to not put a notch in my top bars so the light won't be a problem. Also, between the plastic cover and the top bars, can be placed an old blanket if desired - Russian technique. The plastic cover is mainly for protection against rain and general "weathering" of the top bars from the sun and such.
To add a super on top of the hive, I will remove a single top bar and cover that area of the top bars with a sheet of black plastic (fairly thick, not garbage bag variety) with a narrow elongated hole cut in it. As I understand, the bees will not try to build comb in that area due to the flexing plastic sheet but will have access to the lang super on top.
I've read about the "debate" as to whether sloped side are necessary. I thought I'd run my own little "experiment" and use this TBH and also use a standard Lang deep box with my top bars and see which colony tends to attach more brace comb to the sides. Maybe there will be a difference and maybe not.
As you saw, yes it's deep with a screened bottom - I figured it couldn't hurt with varroa mite control and it might just help (a little). Also the added 'air flow' from the screened bottom should help during the summers with our Texas heat. And as you saw, I also have a 'false bottom' board I can put in during winter to block out some of that air flow during the winter. I'll post again later with pros and cons...

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

After looking at all the various designs for tbhs, I thought I would build the plainest one possible. The sides consist of three 1"x6"s about 3feet long. The bottom consists of two 1"x6"s and the top bars are 24" long.
I am considering using them in a non-migratory sideline operation.

Guess what? The slope off vertical is 22 degrees. No kidding. Have we discovered the Golden Ratio for Tbh's? :> )

It is most interesting to see the different desings and implementations of this idea.

Are we having fun yet?
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

About the slope off verticle [BWrangler]:
ha! ha! maybe...
However, there certainly wasn't anything "scientific" about my decision. I had actually started off with 30 deg and due to the {scrap} plywood I was using for the sides of my TBH, that much of an angle made the plywood too wide and didn't allow for an opening at the bottom. So I backed it off until the results you see and then I measured the angle and it turned out to be 22 deg off verticle. (So you can see, it certainly wasn't "planned"...just turned out that way). The hinged back door of the hive will make it easy to vacuum debris off the inside of the bottom screen (if necessary) and will allow me to place the temporary "bottom board" in during the winter months.

[Michael Bush]

It's been so long since I arrived at the number, it's hard to remember exactly, but I either measured it from a photograph of the Greek basket hives (which they still use) or the article I read describe the angle of the baskets.

[Barry]

Dennis Murrell now has his TBH design online.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm

Thanks Dennis. He kept it simple and the cost low to where anyone should be able to make it. Can you explain more about the bar supports you designed?

Regards,
Barry

[BWrangler]

Hello Barry and Everyone,

The "T" shaped frames are not a original idea of mine. I first started thinking about tbhs in the late '70s and sometime since I've read about them. I can't remember where though.

The vertical piece is designed to provide some support for any inadvertant rotation of the comb when the topbars are worked. It reaches almost to the bottom of the hive.

I will run a bead of beeswax down the center of the topbar and down each side of the vertical support. Hopefully the bees will attach the comb to both points and the comb will be stronger and resist breaking off the topbar. I might have to move this hive twice a year and would hate to hit the breaks and dislodge the comb.

In addition I will cut a couple of small communication holes in the drawn comb on each side of the vertical support.

I toyed with the idea of using 2 shorter pieces toward the outside edges of the frame rather than the single center one. I have prepared several topbars this way also.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

TBH completed and ready for the bees. Last of my photos are at: http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

Starter strips are in place and just waiting for my first Spring split!
Total cost of the hive was under $20 (and most of that was for the cover and bunge straps)

[BWrangler]

Hi TxBeeGuy,

I looked at the tbh pictures in your briefcase. Neat!

Dennis

[beekeeper28]

Hello TBH users I like both of these designs recently posted. One question what is the purpose of the solid frame (follower board)?

I have thought of some thing I'm thinking about trying. Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH. I was thinking about cutting the bottoms out with my skill saw and installing a screen for a bottom board. I was thinking about attaching a thin ledge on both sides to support the frames, plus it would already have a hinged lid.

[Michael Bush]

>Hello TBH users I like both of these designs recently posted. One question what is the purpose of the solid frame (follower board)?

With a conventional Lanstroth hive the size of the hive is adjusted by adding or subtracting supers. This way you can start with a small enough area the bees can keep the atmosphere correct for raising brood when there aren't that many bees yet, and then you can increase the size so there is enough room when the population increases and you need lots of honey storage area.

With a top bar hive you do this with a follower board. You can make the cavity larger or smaller by moving the board.

If you keep a small top bar hive you could get by without the follower board, but you have to rob out honey more often so it doesn't get too crowded and still the population may reach a point where they don't all fit inside to cluster at night.

If you run a large top bar hive, you will have better luck using the follower.

>I have thought of some thing I'm thinking about trying. Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH. I was thinking about cutting the bottoms out with my skill saw and installing a screen for a bottom board. I was thinking about attaching a thin ledge on both sides to support the frames, plus it would already have a hinged lid.

I you have an old cooler around and don't care about ruining it, it should work, but what will the bars hang on? You'd have to put in rails or somthing for the rests and then you've increased the space to the wall under the rest and then the bees will be more likely to attach the combs to the frame rest or run the combs under the rest. If you put a one by all the way down the side for the bar rest it would solve this, but now you've built a wall anyway, so why ruin a good cooler?

I would suppose with a syromfoam one that has some thickness to the foam you might be able to cut a frame rest in the foam, but the styrofoam coolers are pretty fragile.

Advantages: Should be well insulated in the winter.

Disadvantages: You ruin a good cooler.

Unless you just want to get rid of an old cooler, I'd just make it out of scrap wood.

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

>Tell me what you guys think of useing old ice chest/coolers to some as a TBH.

I had the same thoughts and checked out the stock at Walmart. Most of the coolers under $20 were too small. A cooler of the right size was about $50 which is more than it cost to build one from wood.

I had planned to cut a rabbit along the sides of the cooler and insert a wooden frame rest there. It should work quite well.

But it's so easy to build one. I think a very simple and cheap design, even cheaper than mine, could be built along Barry's design if the plywood ends could be scrounged. Pallet lumber could be used for the sides and a simple top bar could suffice. I bet it could be done for less than $10.

I still looking for a very neat scroungable alternative. Anyone have any ideas? I would like to get a sideline size operation up and running using tbh type hives.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

I had actually thought about using an old cooler too (the styrofoam type) but was faced with how to make it more durable - fiberglasing it came to mind but with all that trouble, quickly came the decision that wood would be easier to work with. I did see on the 'net that some guy in eastern europe (Romania, if memory serves me correctly), made a couple of TBH's out of old, discarded refrigerators (the small european type - more like our small wet bar or office type of refrigerators).

[Michael Bush]

One of the nice things about a top bar hive, is you can work with what you have. If you have to buy all new materials or buy something that really isn't made for it, I'm not sure how practical it is.

I'm not sure what's in a typical dumpster at a home job site now, but I would guess you could easily find enough materials for several hives in a typical one. You'd just have to plan for the materials you have.

[txbeeguy]

Michael, now I'm really laughing! That's exactly where I DID find my "construction materials"! I used to live 'out in the country' but now they're building houses all around me. So natually, that became a great source of TBH material. I found enough 1x4's to make about 100 top bars (which is what you see in one of my photos). The best part is: they were just going to trash this leftover material; same goes for plywood too. In fact, it's why I said my hive was built for less than twenty bucks. I used a quart of paint which I paid $1 for at Home Depot (on their return shelf) and it was good quality 'exterior' paint! The fact it matches the colour of the top cover was purely accidental! So pretty good sized hives (thirty "frames" or equal to three deeps) can be built for little or nothing.

[Michael Bush]

I know it was considered "wrong" when I did it and it was probably illegal when I did it, but I raised bees in just a box with miscellaeous one bys for a lid just to see what the bees would do. I got them out of a house so I didn't think I was risking much at the time (at least not money) The bees were free. The box didn't cost anything because it was scrap and I was a carpenter so I never bought nails. I was surprised to discover how orderly the hive was.

Then I went on to try the top bar thing based on a reference to the greek baskets. I'd never heard of anyone doing such a thing at the time. I did it because I enjoyed bees and frankly I was dirt poor. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

The top bar hives I built didn't cost anything either.

Some of my favorite covers for Langstroth hives were the cut outs from formica counter tops for the kitchen sink. It has some weight to it so it stayed on resonably well and the formica would last forever.

I built my first trough hive (not a top bar hive) as an attempt to help an old lady who loved bees but couldn't lift any boxes. It was built out of scrap also. I only bought the frames. It took 30 deep frames. I'd never seen a trough hive, nor did I have a name for it, then.

This was all in the early '70s.

[txbeeguy]

>Some of my favorite covers for Langstroth hives were the cut outs from formica counter tops for the kitchen sink.

It's exactly what I made my 'follower board' out of on my TBH.

My grandparents kept bees when I was growing up in Kentucky and they kept bees in wooden boxes too (called bee gums). But then, as you say, moveable frames became the mandate and the bee gums slowly were replaced with Langstroth hives.

[harlond]

Thanks to everyone for this informative and useful thread. I'm getting ready to build a tbh modeled on this one built by Steve:
http://www.xscd.com/tbh/

I was inclined against putting in the extra top entrance. With the attic, it's not needed for ventilation, and I'm not planning on installing supers. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of the extra entrance?

Also, is there any reason, with a tbh, that I can't screw the bottom board to the hive body to help prevent racking and warping?

Finally, do I understand correctly that some of you are painting the exterior of the hive and "finishing" the interior with FGMO? Do you finish the entire interior surface, except for the top bars, with FGMO? Does it have any effect on the willingness of mail order bees to accept the hive?

Thanks for any assistance.

[Michael Bush]

>Thanks to everyone for this informative and useful thread. I'm getting ready to build a tbh modeled on this one built by Steve: http://www.xscd.com/tbh/

This looks like a well thought out design.

>I was inclined against putting in the extra top entrance. With the attic, it's not needed for ventilation, and I'm not planning on installing supers. Anyone have any thoughts about the advantages and disadvantages of the extra entrance?

I think the ventilation will greatly increase production. I like the top entrance too. Also you can smoke the bees through the top, like a traditional inner cover, before opening it up.

If you want to simplify things, you can skip all of that. Simple top bars with a piece of wood for a lid work.

>Also, is there any reason, with a tbh, that I can't screw the bottom board to the hive body to help prevent racking and warping?

None at all. The only reasons for not screwing it together are so you can clean the debris off the bottom easily.

>Finally, do I understand correctly that some of you are painting the exterior of the hive and "finishing" the interior with FGMO?

I often paint the walls and the top of the bars with FGMO. Of course if you don't have the top entrance and the notches then the bees can't get to the top of the bars anyway.

>Do you finish the entire interior surface, except for the top bars, with FGMO?

Not really a finish, it's for the mites and to keep things from getting as connected to the walls.

>Does it have any effect on the willingness of mail order bees to accept the hive?

The FGMO has no smell. The package shouldn't care. You could try Axtmans recipe for propolis shellac and then put the FGMO on top of that.

Personally I like most everything about the hive you refer to. I like the ventilation. I like the top entrance. I like the screened bottom board.

What I'm not so sure about:

I don't care for the little holes myself. Maybe it breaks up the draft and maybe it's a good thing, but I'm used to being able to really open up and entrace during a heavy flow and shut it down in spring and fall, so I prefer something with an slot for an entrace reducer.

I'm not so sure I like the notch in the very middle of the frame because it weakens it. But the bars look sturdy enough.

[BWrangler]

Hello Harlond,

I have nailed and glued my bottom board on. I will set my tbh on a pallet so any rot will be there.

The interior of my hive is unfinished.

I myself haven't settled on the upper ventilation question. A 3/4 hole could be drilled and then plugged later with a piece of wooden dowel if not needed. In my standard equipment, I seasonally plug the vent holes with small pieces of pantyhose.

Let us know how your ventilation works out.

It's my first year with a tbh also.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[dragonfly]

I built one of my tbh's based on Steve's design and am very happy with the way it turned out. I did not put an upper entrance in, but did build the attic for ventilation. Also, I built a hive stand which will also serve as the bottom board, with mesh for a ventilated bottom. I haven't had any problem with twisting or warping so far.

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

I have been thinking about the commercial potential for tbhs. It would be very easy to build up a sideline size operation using tbh technology. Several advantages exist for a small operation interested in making money with bees.

Capital cost could be much lower per pound produced. Hive construction costs would be lower. Very little storage space would be needed as most of the equipment is on the hives year around. Expensive extracting equipment could be replaced with a few inexpensive settling tanks.

Labor costs might be much lower as well. Combs could be individually havested in the yard and macerated into a storage tank on a truck. The storage tank could be wheeled off the truck to seperate the honey by settling. No double to triple handling frames or equipment. Settling time could replace additional labor.

If the reinforced topbars could handle the rigors of transportation, the hives could easily be palletized using free pallets. The horizontal hives could be easily stacked and would be much more stable than the conventional hives. Banding probably would not be needed.

A very small area could be used to seperate and bottle the honey. This "food grade"
area could be rented. The finished product could be stored in your own "warehouse".

Just some thoughts
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

And if you can do it as a clean system (no chemicals, no FGMO to soften the wax and no essential oils) you can produce a lot of clean wax to sell at a premium price.

[harlond]

As I previously reported, I'm building a tbh modeled on Steve's tbh. This weekend I built the hive body and bottom board, attic and attic floor, and added a skirt to the body. I have two questions. First, the link below shows how Steve feeds the bees in his tbh:
http://www.xscd.com/tbh/images/07divider_w_feeders.jpg

Could someone tell me what size and how many holes should be drilled in the jar lids for this type feeder?

Second question: I'm planning to rout out an entrance near the bottom of the hive body. Earlier there was a discussion of the merits of a top entrance. That discussion left me wondering if there is any compelling reason to put the entrance at the bottom or to have one there at all. Ventilation is not an issue for me because I'll have a screened bottom board and the ventilation attic. Would it be OK to have only an entrance in the attic, or do I really need the bottom entrance? Thanks as always for your kindness in sharing your experience.

[Michael Bush]

It's actually one of those prefernce things about how many holes. I've seen them with just a few and with a lot. Actually for spring stimulation a few is better because it stimulates without them clogging the brood nest. I would call a lot (used for fall feeding if you think they are short on stores) as covered with holes about 1/8" apart. A few would be 12 or so.

I always use those little nails that are for the frames to poke the holes. I hold them with a pair of pliers and tap them with a hammer. I have a piece of wood under it and I try to just go part way in, but if I go all the way through the nail is still small enough to not leak. The holes are probably about a sixteenth of an inch.

Also, I would staple a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth on the underside of the inner cover where the lid will rest on it so you can fill them without the bees flying out.



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 03, 2003).]

[BWrangler]

Hello Everyone,

Studies conducted by Roger Morse at Cornell U. indicate the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter.

Bees are very adaptable and I have worked hives with entrances just about everywhere. Older, more defensive bees tend to congregate near the entrance and if that entrance is left relatively undisturbed when a hive is worked the bees will be much calmer. Returning forages also have someplace to go while the hive is worked.

I have worked standard hives with entrances in the lids. The bees were much more disturbed by the inspection and when the top super was set off to the side angry bees would leave both sides of the super and look for the hive entrance. Guess what was there instead? Me :> )

Just some thoughts
Dennis

[harlond]

Dennis, when you say that "the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter," do you mean a circular entrance? If so, what sort of landing pad, if any, would such an entrance demand? Thanks.

[Michael Bush]

>Dennis, when you say that "the swarming bees prefer a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4" in diameter," do you mean a circular entrance? If so, what sort of landing pad, if any, would such an entrance demand?

I've done them with and without a landing pad. The landing pad was a 2 x 2 screwed on just under the round hole. Without isn't as good, but works better than you think. They can hit the hole pretty well.

[BWrangler]

Hello Harlond and Everyone,

The study used different diameter circular holes.

I have always used a 3/8" entrance and 3/4" vent holes on my standard hives and have never had any mice problems. An 1 1/4" makes me wonder about potential mice problems.

I am going to use the 1 1/4" holes, one on each end so that I can use either end for the main entrance and plug the other. I may also use 3/4" holes near the top of the tbh for ventilation if needed. They can be plugged if not needed.

I am not using a landing pad. I had originally designed them in but opted for several additional frames in the hive instead.

My tbh is a work in progress.

Best Wishes
Dennis

[dcross]

An interesting site, http://rupertshoney.co.za

[This message has been edited by dcross (edited March 10, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

>An interesting site, http://rupertshoney.co.za

Try http://www.rupertshoney.co.za/

[beekeeper28]

I seen that website last Friday. I linked to it from a site that had some great photos. I have lost the website address and I would like to see that site again. Question - How did you come across the "Rupert" site? I'm just wondering if you linked from the same site that I did and if your had the addres that had the neat photos. Here is a link to anothe rintereasting site that I went from the first site as well.
http://www.pollinator.com/feral/feral_examination1.htm

[Michael Bush]

>Question - How did you come across the "Rupert" site?

I don't remember for sure, but I was looking for sites on feral bees and bait hives and it came up in the search, not as a link from somewhere else.

[airbalancer]

Hello all,
I've been following this post for awhile and you have inspired me to build a TBH. My question is how do you effectively medicate a TBH. All the meds say do not use while the hives are supered, but if I'm not going to use supers how can I be sure the honey I harvest from the back of the hive is not tainted. Is my only choice to use a follower board? I am thinking of trying the FGMO approach but I believe I would still need to use the Fumadil and terramycin. Also, has anyone come up with good place to apply the emulsion cords in a TBH? I should have some pictures to share in a week or so.
Thanks
Mike

[BWrangler]

Hello Mike and Everyone,

I sure cant't help you the mite treatment aspects as I haven't treated for mites or anything else since 1999, but would suggest that whatever treatment you use doesn't contaiminate the wax. Acids, powdered sugar, and fgmo could be used in the conventional ways.

The drugs could also be feed in syrup or dusted when the frames behind the broodnest are barren or harvested.

I don't think any more confidence can be obtained when using standard equipment as the bees move the stuff all over the place.

My experiences with small cell using conventional equipment indicates most if not all bee treatments are not needed and in fact can be very detrimental to colony health.

Besides being really fun, my TBH will be used as a research tool to investigate much of what I have seen with small cell and also what has been reported about feral hives by others.

I'm also looking at them as a commercially viable option for a small sideline operation.

Will enjoy the pictures.

Best Wishes and Happy TBHing
Dennis

[airbalancer]

Hello all,
I have some pictures available on my website, www.appleblossomlane.com (http://www.appleblossomlane.com) or you can use the direct link below. Any comments or suggestions would be welcome. I am planning on notching the top bars and making an inner cover of sorts so I have a location for the FGMO cords. Also I'm thinking of making the actual roof out of that corrugated plastic, but I havent worked that out yet http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

http://home.attbi.com/~thomas24/TBH.htm

[BWrangler]

Hello Airbalancer,

What a beautiful tbh. I especially like the possibilities that result from incorporating the slope of the roof into the end pieces of the hive rather than building an entire seperate roof. Misc items could be stored under the roof. Feeding could be done under the lid. Extra ventilation could be easily provided if needed. The area could be insulated for winter protection. That's neat.

I'm going to incorporate that idea on my next tbh.

Let us know what kind of cover you come up with.

Thanks again for the pictures and the great ideas.

Happy TBHing
Dennis

[dragonfly]

airbalancer, I agree with Dennis. That is a beautiful hive. It reminds me of the Cal-Kenyan hive except for the sloping roof line. Great idea. My top bar hives have straight sides, which are fine, functionally, but the sloped sides and angled roof add an aesthetic element. I guess the bees don't care either way, but it looks like you took great care with details and function.

[Michael Bush]

I'm a carpenter (or at least I was one for more than a decade) and I wouldn't have spent that much work. It's a work of art. I hadn't thought of how a screened bottom board would look on a sloped sided one, but if the sides are steep enough, and I think they are, then the mites would slide right down and the screened open space is smaller for the slope. It looks very nice.

[airbalancer]

I got alot of ideas from the Cal-Kenyan and all the other TBH's I've seen. My idea for the roof is to overlap the pitch of the two end pieces and use a simple peg to lock the roof on securely, that way I wont have to use weights on top.
Mike

[BWrangler]

Hello Airbalancer and Everyone,

I like the roof and now it's attachments. A beautiful hive keeps getting better.

The tbh is a great forum for trying and sharing new beekeeping ideas.

It sure bets nailing tens of thousands of frames and building the umteenth super.

Thanks
Dennis

[beekeeper28]

Wow what a work of art! I would bet that if you stained that and varnished it, it would be beautiful. You might even be able to market that to non carpenter types. The more that I study this out; the more I'm thinking that I will not be buying any more standard equipment - at least not as long as I'm in the hobby stage.

[Michael Bush]

>The more that I study this out; the more I'm thinking that I will not be buying any more standard equipment - at least not as long as I'm in the hobby stage.

What I do is build my top bar equipment the same dimensions as Langstroth stuff. I build the boxes some multiple of standard Langstroth boxes wide and then you can use standard supers, excluders, inner covers, lids etc. or you can put frames in the brood chamber and use top bars for the honey. Interchangeability means you haven't wasted anything and all it costs you is get interchangeability is the trouble to make the measurements come out right.

I think it's the best way to get started rasing bees cheaply.

[Michael Bush]

I like the looks of Txbeeguy's hive. Especially the arms on the end. I have contemplated putting something like that on mine to hang bars on. This is especially nice on a top bar hive as you can't set the frames on the ground. I have always built mine to Langstroth dimensions which lets me use one of those frame rests that hang on the end but the arms sticking out would be even more convenient.

For those of you who haven't done top bars, you may want to think about where you will put the bars when working the hive. One option on a sloped hive is add some 1 x 2 arms a little below the top so the space between them is correct. for the length of the bar. If it's a square sided box, you could put a couple of long deck screws in the end spaced correctly for the bar. Another is use your follower board to leave some space on the end inside to put them.

[txbeeguy]

Those "arms" on the end came from my laziness to cut them off! Since I was using scrap wood, I decided to just leave them - later I discovered they would make an excellent place to put the top bars when I'm working the hive. My top bars are also 19 inches long so they will fit a standard brood box (if need be). I have been feeding my bees heavy so as to encourage a quick buildup this Spring - should be ready to do a split and 'populate' the TBH very soon!
As soon as they get it going, I'll post a few more photos.

[BWrangler]

Hello Txbeeguy and Everyone,

I also thought those side extensions were designed as frame rests. I'm going to incorporate that idea into my 'fancy' tbh. If a cross piece was placed to connect the two sides of the rests they could be used as handles to move the hive. Think I've read about the handles on James S.'s site.

Looking forward to the shots of bees in the tbh and the mangement techniques.

Now this is beekeeping at it's best. Thanks guys for the ideas.

Happy TBHing
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

Actually there is a cross piece on each end (made from the same wood) and it is how I move the hive. It's these two cross pieces that have the 22 deg angle cut which forms the overall shape of the hive. The hive doesn't have to be supported by underneath (by sawhorses like in my photos), it could also be suspended by rope under a tree (as an example). One of these days, I'll try to draw up some basic construction drawings with dimensions. I think it has absolutely the fewest saw cuts necessary and would lend itself to replication very readily.

[airbalancer]

Hello all

I have ordered a 3LB package of bees for my TBH, and I am just wondering, is there anything special I should do to introduce them to the new hive? Would you use a wire or something to hang the queen cage up by the top bars?

Mike

[Michael Bush]

Whatever works for you. I usually staple a piece of card stock (like 3 x 5 cards are made of) to the queen cage. Or better yet a piece of hardware cloth if I have a scrap of it around. Run this up through the crack of the top bar and bend it and staple it to the top bar. Make sure you don't get too deep of a staple that would block the exit on the cage or staple the queen. Of course with the hardware cloth you won't even need to staple it. A tight 90 degree bend will keep it there.

I'm sure there are a 100 other ways too that are just as good, but this is what I've done in the past.

[Hal]

Hi guys,
I'm new at doing the top bar hives. I am running 8 of them this year and built them using the instructions from James Satterfield's website. I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)
I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives? I am a school teacher that would like to get into this a little more and wondering if it is feasable to do the beekeeping in the tbh's a little more than a hobby.

[Hal]

Hi guys,
I'm new at doing the top bar hives. I am running 8 of them this year and built them using the instructions from James Satterfield's website. I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)
I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives? I am a school teacher that would like to get into this a little more and wondering if it is feasable to do the beekeeping in the tbh's a little more than a hobby.

[Michael Bush]

>I am running into a problem with the top bars swelling so that I can't get them in and out very easily. Is this because the bees inside are trying to evaporate the moisture from the nectar? Do I need to have some ventilation holes near the back of the hive; and if I do ventilate, how do I keep the bees from using this hole? (My entrance holes are in the front of the hive)

The environment in a hive has to be moist for the brood to live. Are the bars too long or too wide after they swell? If they are too long, you should just cut them shorter. If they are too wide, you need a follower on the end so you can remove it and them pry them apart.

You do need some ventilation somwhere. A screened area under the brood nest with #8 hardware cloth could allow mite fall while providing ventilation. You could cut a hole in the back and cover it with #8 hardware cloth. It will work for a while until the bees propolize it closed. If you do some kind of hole in the back with the hardware cloth but block the light coming in then they won't propolize it nearly as much.

>I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives?

I have never tried to do it commercially. I think it would be advantageous to run a "clean" (as in no chemicals) hive and then you could get a premioum for the wax. You'll have lots of it if you press comb for extracted honey. Of course you can sell comb honey, that seems to be a big market anyway.

It has the advantage of low investment which means less overhead. Also it has the advantage of less labor because you're not lifting all those supers off everytime you want to check the brood chamber.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited April 30, 2003).]

[Hal]

Thanks Mike,
I'll try the ventilation holes with the screen. My bars are swelling against each other which makes sense from your reply. This discussion board has given me a lot of ideas. I'm sure I'll need your help in the future.
Thanks again...Hal

[BWrangler]

Hello Hal and Everyone,

>I'm glad I stumbled on to this site...Have any of you been successful commercially with the top bar hives?

I think the tbh has some great commercial potential for a non-migratory sideliner. Some of my thoughts were noted in a previous post and I had planned to expand this year and test some of those ideas.

Unfortunately that will not be possible this year. Maybe next.

The short term commercial possibilities are especially exciting. If raw material for the hives can be scrounged, the possibility exists for turning a profit much earlier than with the more expensive standard equipment.

Regards
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

I don't experience this problem with my top bars. The main reason is that I built my TBH a little longer (wider?) than the 30 top bars to allow for a 'follower board'. And to this follower board I put a strip of that self-adheasive, high-density weather striping. This seals the gap between the follower board and the last top bar and since the weather striping is a little "spongy", it expands or contracts to allow for the top bars to fit in nicely under any moisture conditions. This is visible in several of my photos and can been seen as the 'grey' line across the TBH.

[Hal]

Thanks...That's a great idea. I glued in a thin board at the end becasue of a little space when I was building these hives. I'll just take the board out and modify it...Great idea!

[Michael Bush]

Here's a picture of the box I put my top bars in for starting out. It's a lanstroth deep box with a plexiglass window on it. The top bars are 1 1/2" wide with a blank starter strip (no embossing) on it. I' curious to see the orientation, size etc.
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/bush3.htm

Here's a view of the cluster of bees inside:
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/BeesOnTopBars.jpg

[txbeeguy]

Wow Michael, I'm impressed. (Good job)
That's quite a cluster of bees!

I'm sure you're planning on posting the
results of your bees drawing out wax and
it's orientation. I'm a little skeptical
about this center comb idea (as well as
the cell orientation) making any kind of
REAL difference in the hive.

[Michael Bush]

I have to admit a problem with the center comb concept. The orientation makes some sense to me having had foundation that they wouldn't draw until I reveresed it, even though I didn't know anything about positioning. But I am both open minded and skeptical when it comes to anything. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I will let you know what I observe. I just don't want to disturb them at this point. Probably I won't disturb them as long as things look good, until they start running out of room. Then I will transfer them to a long trough hive.

[txbeeguy]

Yep, I agree about not distrubing them too
much; I've been reluctant to get into my TBH
for the same reason. I'd rather let them get
"well settled" before I start making regular
visits to 'check on them'. About the biggest
pest I make of myself, is to quickly swap out an empty sugar syrup jar for a full one
on an entrance feeder once every three or
four days.
The next real check I do probably won't be
for a couple of weeks when I'm hoping to
see evidence of the queen having started
laying eggs. (I can see some good signs like
the field bees bringing in pollen - so hopefully
they're here to stay). As the temperatures
warm up, I will also remove my 'false' bottom
board to expose the screened bottom of the
hive. At that time, I'm planning on taking
a few more photos from inside the hive (from the back that's hinged and can be opened) - should make for some interesting
pictures.

[Michael Bush]

I checked my top bar hive today. I reported the comb positioning under Cell Calls. The bees seem to be doing well. I really am enjoying using the blank starter strips so they can do their thing and I can watch.

[txbeeguy]

Also checked on my TBH this past weekend and everything seems to be going great. The combs had been drawn out deeper and about the top third (closest to the bar) had capped honey with brood in the bottom two-thirds of the comb. The bees are drawing it straight across the bar (in alignment with the starter strips). They show no signs of trying to attach it to the sides of the hive (at least, so far). I saw the queen on about the sixth bar back from the entrance.
The two bars I had rotated from the back of the hive to the front, in hopes of getting them to draw out comb a little faster, were not being worked as much as the comb toward the back of the hive. Thus, the suggestion to not rotate the top bars toward the front seems to be the correct suggestion. So far, the bees have begun to pull wax on nine top bars (I have the follower board set at fifteen top bars at present). I have not removed the false bottom board yet so I'm still not operating with a screened bottom board. Once the temps get hot, I will remove the "bottom board" and see how the bees react to the open screend bottom of the hive. So far, so good.

[Michael Bush]

>The two bars I had rotated from the back of the hive to the front, in hopes of getting them to draw out comb a little faster, were not being worked as much as the comb toward the back of the hive. Thus, the suggestion to not rotate the top bars toward the front seems to be the correct suggestion.

I figure the bees know what they are doing. I'll just let them.

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

I've now got bees in my tbh. For some pics of my finished hive see:
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm

Blank starter strips about 1 inch wide were dipped and fastened in a kerf on the topbars. I think that's too wide as several were broken off by the weight of the clustering bees.

It appears that they put most of their hanging weight on the wax strip and not very much on the topbar.

Maybe a shorter strip would work better. Say one with about 1/4" of hang.

I will also try an approach used by W. Mangum? A couple strips of wood are placed beside the kerf forming a small mold. Molten wax is poured in and a small ridge is left when the wood strips are removed.

Am I still trying to make a simple problem complex? Maybe just fill the kerf with beeswax would be enough.

Any thoughts? Experience?

The bees have started to drawn out topbar #3 from the front of the hive and are working on the others to a lesser extent.

Regards
Dennis


[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 15, 2003).]

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 15, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

My strips were about 1/2" wide and I waxed them into the grooves with a wax tube fastener. I waxed both sides of the strip so it is anchored in the kerf with molten wax. None fell out from the weight of the bees. I made the strips pretty thick by multiple dipping the boards when making the sheets of foundation. Most were just a hair under 1/8" thick.

[Steve-]

This is the first time I have posted to this TBH forum. I am in my third year with a TBH and have recently expanded to two hives. My experience is not as deep as some on this forum.

But when it come to starter strips and such I now let the bees take care of it. My first year I did start some strips (3 if I remember )after the bees started drawing it I would add a new bar between two bars that were being drawn. This method worked until I had 4 or 5 bars started. I then stopped inserting blank bars - I just let the bees take their own measurements for the bars that followed and I have had no problems with cross comb or such. The problem I did have though was I made my original hive too deep and as the bees filled the comb with honey and brood on really HOT days here in the Ms Delta I would sometimes lose a comb to the weight. I have straight sided boxes and not sloped sides that may have contributed to my weight problem (1 gallon of harvested honey per bar). With my second hive I just started them on a couple of bars I had harvested from my first hive (a quarter inch of wax remained on the bar after harvest). That is how I now get them started without strips.

For those of you who have been doing this for awhile how much Drone comb is drawn by your hives? I have plenty of honey to harvest and a ton of worker brood but I also have a large amount of drawn Drone comb.

Mr. Bush how do I post pics and PDF files to this forum. I have made a tool that assists when I am inspecting that I want to share with you all. The tool is used to cut brace comb on the side of the hive during inspection.

steve

------------------

[txbeeguy]

I used the exact same technique as Michael Bush: starter strips that hang down below the bar by about 1/2-inch in a groove and held there by pouring melted wax on the strip and in the groove (both sides). The groove was about 1/8-inch deep. The swarm hung from these starter strips without any problem and almost immediately started drawing them out.
Steve, I for one, would like to see the pic of your tool used for cutting/breaking the brace comb. (Pictures of my TBH are on my Yahoo profile).

[Michael Bush]

>For those of you who have been doing this for awhile how much Drone comb is drawn by your hives? I have plenty of honey to harvest and a ton of worker brood but I also have a large amount of drawn Drone comb.

I figure the natural percent of drone is about 10%. That means one in 10 cells is drone. It's higher than most people using worker foundation keep, but it's what the bees seem to like. Unfortunatlely, it does seem to increase over time, so I would cull frames that have more than 10% drone. You can either move them to the back of the hive and wait for them to hatch, or wait until they hatch and they get filled with honey and then press them. Of course the wax isn't so easy to clean with the cocoons in it.

>Mr. Bush how do I post pics and PDF files to this forum. I have made a tool that assists when I am inspecting that I want to share with you all. The tool is used to cut brace comb on the side of the hive during inspection.

If you want them actually on this site, you can email them to Barry, the board's owner and see if he will post them. If you have somewhere to put them that is available to the internet, you can just post a link to there in your message. I have some that Barry posted and now I have a few that are on my web site that I just put in a link to. You can start a breifcase in Yahoo. I think it's free and you can post pictures there. Someone has posted other places that allow you to post pictures for free also. I don't know what they are, but you might find them if you search for "post" and "pictures" on these forums.

[Barry]

> Maybe just fill the kerf with beeswax would be enough.

Dennis -

I have no doubt that the bees would do just fine with a wax filled kerf. I have some top bars that have no kerf in them and will see what the bees do, but I'll guess they will do well, just as they do in the feral.

Regards,
Barry

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

I dipped my blank starter strips about six times and they are about 1/16" thick and 1" wide. Maybe a little flimsy.

Would an insulated cover prevent the sagging comb caused by heat? I have lots to learn.

I bought a couple of those old woooden screen door type fastener to hold down the cover without the bricks. They are a couple of eye screws, one with a hook linked into it that slips into the other eyescrew. They are called hooks and eyes on the package.

I know Barry is swamped right now for time. Maybe I could setup a group on yahoo as a temporary area to post pictures for beesource members.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

I think ventilation is the best solution to sagging. I can't think of a really simple system, but I can think of several. For one, a screened bottom board adds a lot of ventilation.

[dragonfly]

Steve, I also would love to see the tool for cutting away brace comb. I have wondered if one of those really old flexible bread knives would work well, but haven't tried it yet. I haven't had any problems with the weight of the comb causing sagging or breaking of the comb, but I do use ventilated bottoms and tops also. I have the hives where they get afternoon shade which really seems to help too.

[dragonfly]

Steve, forgot to add something else. I do find that in the top bar hive, there seems to be lots of drone brood comb. Not sure why. Maybe bees in the wild have more drones than our domestic Langs???

[Steve-]

Dragonfly:
I am working on a webpage and I will post plans and pics of the cutting tool I mentioned. I sent a couple of pics of it to txbeeguy - he might post it to his page or make comment on his impression of what I sent him.

I think the tool is very simple - a thin metal shaft (I used an old car radio antenna-the solid rod type)18" to 20" in length. I bent the lower 5" to a 90 degree angle. I then moved 1 1/2" and bent it another 90 degree angle. The shaft now looks like a metal "J". Next I took my hacksaw and cut a notch around the tip of the short turned up end. I then cut a notch in the long shaft on a slight slant from the first notch. I then took florist wire and connected it to the first notch with a couple of tight wraps. The wire was then pulled tight to the second notch wrapped and clipped for a close fit. The wire is on slight pitch if you view it from the side (I thought this pitch might help as it sliced through comb). Make the 90 degree bends so the tool lays flat on a table. I have been pleased with the results so far. I will be glad to attach a picture to an e-mail and send it your way (just drop me a note my e-mail is in my profile).

Several folks have mentioned sagging combs - since I resized my hives I have had no problems (my first hive was a bit oversized http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif - in my first hive I had comb that measured 18"Lx23"D).

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

It's been six days since I shook some small cell bees into my TBH and have a few observations.

My bee brush is more important than my hive tool. It's pretty easy to scrunch a few bees between the top bars when pushing them together, especially if you an experienced standard type hive beekeeper like me.

In a standard hive many are also probably scrunched when setting the supers together but the evidence isn't so obvious when the hives are opened later.

Have you ever waited for a bee to zig before moving a topbar only to discover that at the last millisecond it zagged instead.:> )

The bees are definately less disturbed or annoyed when the tbh is worked compared to a standard hive. I found very little smoke was needed, a very positive factor for my breathing.

The bees begin drawing out comb from the bottom edge of blank starter strip. After some comb is drawn, they work upwards on the starter strip toward the topbar. If you are using blank starter strips make them short and stout so they won't fail.

Starter strips might not be needed at all, at least blank ones. A saw kerf filled with beeswax probably would work better.

Once the bees become oriented and some comb is drawn, they can be shaken or brushed off at the rear of the hive and they quietly march right back toward the darken area of the hive. Nice!

New comb is very beautiful and working the tbh is a joy! I am hooked.

Contrary to what some in the bee mags say tbhs are the ideal hive to start with.

I'v taken some pics and will send them to Barry shortly.

I'm also posting some of my observations concerning comb construct and orientation in "Making Cell Call"

Happy TBHing
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

>My bee brush is more important than my hive tool. It's pretty easy to scrunch a few bees between the top bars when pushing them together...

I have had this problem also. I've been just smoking them back down to push it together.

>Have you ever waited for a bee to zig before moving a topbar only to discover that at the last millisecond it zagged instead.:> )

Yes. It seems like this is a bigger problem than ever with top bars.

>The bees are definately less disturbed or annoyed when the tbh is worked compared to a standard hive.

Definitely. It's because less bees are exposed.

>The bees begin drawing out comb from the bottom edge of blank starter strip. After some comb is drawn, they work upwards on the starter strip toward the topbar. If you are using blank starter strips make them short and stout so they won't fail.

They did do that. I made mine thick thinking they might be inclined to pull some of the excess wax out and it would give them a bit of a start, but also for strength.

>Starter strips might not be needed at all, at least blank ones. A saw kerf filled with beeswax probably would work better.

I didn't do 1 3/8" spacing like I should have (for a package of 5.4mm bees) I was lazy and did 1 1/2". And even with the starter strips they build a couple of small combs between the bars instead of on the strips. I think the strips helped, though, because the rest were build using the strips. Maybe if you spacing was better the strips would be less necessary, but if I cut a groove, it's not that hard to add a blank strip instead of just waxing the groove.

>Once the bees become oriented and some comb is drawn, they can be shaken or brushed off at the rear of the hive and they quietly march right back toward the darken area of the hive. Nice!

I hadn't thought of that technique. I usually end up brushing them off on the entrance and they half of them decide to fly.

>New comb is very beautiful and working the tbh is a joy!

I love to see what the bees build by themselves. It seems so different from them drawing out sheets of foundation on frames.

>Contrary to what some in the bee mags say tbhs are the ideal hive to start with.

I agree. They are cheap. You have less invested, the bees are easier to handle in them. You just have to be more careful, which is something a beekeeper should learn anyway.

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

The pics of my small cell bees starting to work in my tbh can be seen at:
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm

Just click on a picture if you want a larger view and some text.

Some of the shots clearly show how the bees work the longer, blank starter strips.

I have the top bars spaced at 1 1/4". That's the measure I have observed the bees prefer in my small cell colonies in standard equipment. And also what has been observed for brood comb by others in truely feral European bees in NZ.

Regards
Dennis

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited May 18, 2003).]

[Steve-]

BWrangler,

Your pics looked great. Please comment on your top bar center supports and how they are working out (what you expected and so forth. Also, how are you venting your hives? A number of tbh's I have seen pics of have vent notchs cut in each top bar.
Steve

[BWrangler]

Hello Steve,

The vertical support was designed to reinforce the comb against breakage. The comb is weakest in it's attachment to the topbar. If forces were applied to the comb which would rotate it perpendicular to its attachment at the topbar it would easily break off. The vertical support allows another point of attachment for the comb to prevent it from swaying and breaking.

I move my hives twice a year and can easly see those kinds of forces being generated during the move. I think new comb would be expecially vulnerable. Maybe when it's old, dark and tough as shoe leather it wouldn/t matter but I plan on rotating the comb out on about a three year basis.

The vertical support is glued and nailed to the top bar. It's 1/4" thick, 3/4" wide and long enough to just leave a bee space at the bottom of the hive. I think I would make them a little shorter now. Maybe an inch or two from the bottom of the hive.

I had also planned to cut a communication hole in the comb on either side of the vertical support near the top bar. It appears I won't have to cut them as the bees are leaving them at that spot.

I haven't cut any additional vent holes into my tbh. Our climate is cool and windy, it's snowing outside again today. But will be near 80 degrees by the end of the week. That's Wyoming!

We normally have about a 35-40 degree daily differential in temps. When it's 95 degrees during the day, that night temps will be near 60 degrees. More ventilation may be required in a hotter climate.

Research done at Cornell indicates a swarm will reject a cavity with light at its top and prefers one with a bottom entrance of about 1 1/4". Another study indicates 15 square centimeters is the preferred entrance area.

Last winter Barry Birkey in Chicago and I both kept a plex cover on a standard hive to monitor moisture levels. In our climates winter moisture was not a problem. In my climate it was an advantage. So for now,I've just got the 3/4" holes at the front of the hive

But I've got my drill ready just in case. I would probably drill some vertical holes in the topbar part of my follower board and vent out through the rear of the cover. The follower could simply be rotated to vent or not vent the hive.

I like the idea of a narrow slot that runs the length of the tbh that others have incorporated into their tbhs. It can function as an entrance, cleanout, mite screen, and ventilator. Very flexible. Nice.

My tbh was designed to be simple to build and cheap and as fast as possible. One that would be stable with livestock, transportable and stackable(although I did build a sloped rather than a flat lid for this one).

It is the prototype for a potential sideline operation based on tbhs rather langs.

I hope to build a really neat one like those built by others in this forum in the future

Regards
Dennis

[Russ]

How do I find the Pictures????????? Dale

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

Try: http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm

Regards
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

Photos looked great! I'm assuming, from the photos, the wood verticle support is the same width as the top bar. If so, this leads me to belive that 'bee space' has not been provided for between the wooden verticle support pieces. I'm guessing that eventually you're going to experience 'brace comb' in effect, glueing this pieces together, thus making the top bars difficult to separate. Comments?

[BWrangler]

Greetings Txbeeguy,

My top bar is 1 1/4" wide and the vertical support is 3/4" wide. If construction were perfect and the frames set in the hive correctly no problem should result.

But a good modification might be to make the supports not so wide and a little thicker.

Regards
Dennis

[Hal]

Hi All,
I am enjoying reading about the information you all give and looking/pondering on the hives that you are all building. I checked my hives last night and found that 3 of the five hives have built queen cells. These hives are just new this year. Any advice on why they are trying to raise new queens? One of the hives have as many as 30 queen cells. What should I do? Can I split my hives already? Help...

[Michael Bush]

I'd say if there are that many cells they are planning to swarm. Where are the cells? On the bottom of the combs? Near the top of the combs?

You could do a split if you have another hive that the bars will fit in.

You could set a swarm trap, check them every morning and hope you can catch the swarm(s).

You could do the hopless task of trying to destroy all the cells and they make more anyway. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Hal]

Hi All,
I am enjoying reading about the information you all give and looking/pondering on the hives that you are all building. I checked my hives last night and found that 3 of the five hives have built queen cells. These hives are just new this year. Any advice on why they are trying to raise new queens? One of the hives have as many as 30 queen cells. What should I do? Can I split my hives already? Help...

[Michael Bush]

>My top bar is 1 1/4" wide and the vertical support is 3/4" wide. If construction were perfect and the frames set in the hive correctly no problem should result.

>But a good modification might be to make the supports not so wide and a little thicker.

It looks like the support breaks up the comb a bit. It's like they are building two combs, one on each side. How about making it a lot smaller, like an 1/8" dowel? I understand why you want a support, if I was moving them a lot I'd probably want one too. I've seen pictures of a sort of TBH that has frames. I say sort of because the bars are solid across the top but there are frames. These were done with dowells for the side bars and a smaller dowell for the bottom bar. This would give a lot of strength and not break up the comb so much. Still, I think the 1/8" dowell might do fine. You could also do one on each end without a bottom and make them 1/8" dowell.

[Hal]

The cells are all over the place on the combs. Middle, top, bottom...It doesn't seem like my hives are crowded? If I split my hives and place one of these frames in an empty hive with the bees that are on the frame, will that work on the split? I'll probably need to feed this new hive sugar water for a while until they get their reserves built up? What do you think Mike?
Thanks...

[Hal]

The queen cells are placed all over the comb. When splitting this hive, can I just take a frame with queen cells (and worker bees) and put in an empty hive? I would probably have to feed them sugar water until this hive gets up and going, right Michael?

[Michael Bush]

Odd that they are "all over" I would expect them to be either near or on the bottom. Or to be near the top.

One bar is not really enough to get a hive started. You can take about three bars of bees and put them in a 5 frame nuc of some kind and they will probably do all right. The same in a 10 frame box may not be able to keep it warm enough on the chilly nights. Your problem is you have to do something quite suddenly or they will swarm. Can you build a box the size of 5 bars? Or do you have a good bee tight follower and a larger box? If so this could probably work with at least three frames of bees for each split. Ideally, I'd like to see a frame of emerging brood, two other frames containing at least some open brood and two more with honey and pollen, which is five frames of bees.

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

I looked into my TBH yesterday and those wide strips are definately a bad idea and not needed. Where several had pulled out the bees readily constructed comb centered and aligned with the saw kerf having that had only a small amount of beeswax in the bottom of it.

So I trimmed the remaining starter strips to about 1/4". They are less likely to be damaged during hive inspections when shorter.

It's quite obvious that just a bead of wax down the kerf would be more than adequate. It would be alot faster, more robust, etc.

Regards
Dennis

[dragonfly]

I found out something that will be useful for making the top bars in the future to avoid crushing bees when pushing the bars back together. In one of my tbh's, I made an "end piece" that is stationary to make the bee space in front right. Hope you understand what I am describing. Anyway, this end piece had a flaw in it which essentially was a bowed in surface to the inside of the hive. The bees are able to move in and out without difficulty. You have to keep in mind that I use ventilated tops with an attic space, so I have ventilation holes in the top bars anyway, but now I will be making the top bars usual width at each end, and cutting out a small strip in each side of the bar to allow for bee movement up to the attic space. This should make the crushing minimal and closing the hives back up much simpler.

[Michael Bush]

It has advantages and disadvantages. One advantage to standard top bars with no holes is that you don't expose very many bees at one time. The disadvantage over your system is that you have trouble putting the bars back without squashing bees.

[Joel Acheson]

Nice pictures, Dennis! It's interesting, the color you painted it is almost the same shade most of mine end up. You must be getting your paint out of the mismatched paint bin at the same hardware store that I do.

Is it a general consensus that the sloping side TBH works out better than a straight sided one, or is that just your personal preference? I would like to try one this year, but don't know which way would work better. I could always do one of each, but then that sounds like a lot more work, too. Plus, regardless of which one did best, one would always be left with the ponder of whether it was the hive design which was better, or the individual hive?

[BWrangler]

Greetings Joel,

I have had the same question about the value of sloped sides. Somewhere I read that it didn't make much difference, yet almost all TBHs have the sloped sides.

This last week I put my pencil to the paper and plan to build a straight sided version of my TBH as a test.

My pencil wandered a little farther and I think a TBH could be built from new material for about $20 using OSB and 2x4s.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

In the past I had only done the sloped sides. I just started my first with straight sides after reading Satterfields writings on the subject. So far it's working very nicely and has the advantage that I can pull a frame of brood etc. from one of my hives and it will fit fine.

As they fill it, I will find how much of a problem attaching the sides will be. I think mostly you just have to pay attention and be ready to cut a few burrs.

[txbeeguy]

The main school of thought as originally advanced with the Kenyan-style (i.e., sloped sides) TBH, was that since the bees "recgonize" the straight downward pull of gravity (as understood in their 'bee dance' theory) and the fact they don't attach burr or brace comb to the bottom floor of a nest, then the angled sides are, in effect, recgonized by the bees as a "floor" and thus they don't attach brace comb to the sloped sides. At least, so goes the theory...
Now with the Tanizanian-style (verticle sides) TBH, this idea is thrown out the window. Some people believe that there is no more attached brace comb on the verticle sided hive than there is with a sloped sided hive.
My first TBH I've built was a Kenyan style TBH. However, the actual top bars are the same length that will fit into a regular Langstroth brood box. I got the Kenyan TBH established this Spring and will place top bars in a Langstroth brood box (i.e., Tanzianian-style TBH) a little later. In this fashion, I plan to run my own little test to see if there is any noticable difference between the amount of comb being attached to the sides of the hives.
My top bars have a grove cut in them, down the middle, about an 1/8-inch deep. I used melted beeswax to hold starter strip foundation in place. The starter strips extended below the bar anywhere from a 1/4-inch to maybe as much as a 1/2-inch (this can be seen in some of the photos in my yahoo briefcase). http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

[Michael Bush]

When I built my first TBH I'd never heard of a top bar hive other than the basket ones the Greeks build. It was this that gave me the idea for it. The information I had read on the Greek hives was that the sides were sloped and the bees did not attach the combs to the sides. I didn't have a concept of a trough hive, so I built a box the size of a Langstroth on top and sloped on the long sides (the bars ran the long way instead of the short way as a Lanstroth does). I was thinking the combs were smaller on the bottom so I wanted them long. I also wanted to be able to super it. I left a quarter inch crack on the outside of the last bars on the edge for the bees to go up into a super. Also a standard top would fit on it. I also built another slope sided box to put under, but was afraid of stability as it got wider at the top. Anyway, the bees didn't attach other than a small amount of burr to the sides. The thing about a TBH is that even a small amount of burr can cause more problems than with a frame because there is no support for the comb. You have to be sure you aren't attached to anything before you pull a bar out. It's just the way it is whether it's sloped or not.

[Steve-]

Hello All:

Mr. Bush made a comment that any amount of comb attachment can be a problem for TBH's. I agree - I have witnessed comb slowly tear across a whole bar because I did not see or find a spot of attached brace comb. I find that brace or burr is placed at varying intervals along the wall side of the comb. After using different methods of freeing the comb, I began to think about how to make some of the cutting devices I had read about here on the net. I mentioned it several days’ back. Below you will find a reposting of an earlier reply I made and a link to a site with two photos of the tool. The rest of my site does not work yet but you can see pictures of my comb cutter!

Previous Posting
"I think the tool is very simple - a thin metal shaft (I used an old car radio antenna-the solid rod type) 18" to 20" in length. I bent the lower 5" to a 90-degree angle. I then moved 1 1/2" and bent it another 90-degree angle. The shaft now looks like a metal "J". Next I took my hacksaw and cut a notch around the tip of the short turned up end. I then cut a notch in the long shaft on a slight slant from the first notch. I then took florist wire and connected it to the first notch with a couple of tight wraps. The wire was then pulled tight to the second notch wrapped and clipped for a close fit. The wire is on slight pitch if you view it from the side (I thought this pitch might help as it sliced through comb). Make the 90 degree bends so the tool lays flat on a table. I have been pleased with the results so far. I will be glad to attach a picture to an e-mail and send it your way (just drop me a note my e-mail is in my profile)."

Link to photos: http://www.geocities.com/five_watsons/combcuttingtool.html

Maybe someone will make improvements and share with the rest of us.
Steve

[BWrangler]

Hi Steve,

That's a neat idea for cutting brace comb.

TBH guys, check out the picture. I didn't quite understand it from the description.

Thanks
Dennis
Who was the one lacking the understanding, not the description

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

I'm learning more about how to work the top bar hive each week. I had commented before about the danger of squishing bees with the top bars. Initially, I use a bee brush to avoid those accidents. But a better menthod is available.

Rather, than horizontally sliding the topbars into place, slide the topbar almost into position horizontally. Then lift the topbar vertically the width of the topbar and gently place it into position. I only used the bee brush a couple of times today and not a bee was squashed.

Also, naturally drawn comb is unbelievably beautiful. Structures brood and useage follow the catenary shape of the curve downward. The complexity and variety are really neat.

It's tougher and more easy to handle than I thought it would be. I will probably not use the comb reinforcements on my next tbh. I like the looks of unrestricted comb that much.

Regards
Dennis
Confessions of a self spacing frame slider :> )

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited June 02, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

Update on my top bar hive.

First, I am amazed how much the comb varies in size and orientation not only throughout the hive but rhoughout one comb. It is quite beautiful

Second. I moved them from one Langstroth box to a double box today. They did attach the ends of the comb. Mine built all the comb to one side of the bars and that side was attached on every comb. I think next time I'll use frames for the brood nest and top bars for the supering. It wouldn't be bad if I was harvesting it, but it's bad when it's on brood comb. Since my boxes are lanstroth width the frames will work fine. I did use sloped sides before and got only some burr connections, not solid connections like this. Those of you with sloped sides, let us know how that goes.

[BWrangler]

Greetings Michael and Everyone,

Greetings Everyone,

Another week has gone by and I was into the top bar hive. It was a really nasty day for working bees. No nectar for several days, a strong cold front with thunderstorms had just passed through and the temps had dropped about 30 degrees with a cold wind. I worked without a veil and smoker until the last two topbars. No place for the bees to run to and they were nasty.

No obvious pattern for cell base orientation. Bees still drawing larger cells.

First comb attachment to the hive. A small area less than 1" long on one comb. As 4 combs are a beespace from the wall, I don't consider it a problem.

The bees insist on bending the edges of several combs toward the front of the hive about 1/3 topbar width. I have cut them and bent them back. Maybe the bees will reattach them in a straigher fashion.

Regards
Dennis

[Steve-]

Morning All:

Some mention of burr attachment has been commented on or the lack of it. I have noticed that in my TBH's that the attachment is random and never near the bottom of the comb - I guess because of the natural curve of the comb - but I have found most attachment near the top of the comb or as a continuation from the top bar to the hive wall. I am not certain as to why they build the length of the top bar and then continue on to the hive wall(bee space should not be an issue). Burr does not show up on all Top Bars just some. If comb is new the attachment of burr can cause comb to split from the top bar if you do not see it to remove it.

I have been watching an interesting process for two days now. Drones in all stages of development are being removed from the hive. I should say capped drones are being removed.
We have not had cool nights or rain. Some of the Drone Brood is just before hatching (they are alive and moving but not fully developed) but being removed anyway. I have little to none SWD present, very few V-mites. So I guess I will wonder what's up - but it is interesting behavior to watch. Maybe they decided they have had enough of the guys.

Steve

[Michael Bush]

I have a plan for next time. I think I'll make a top bar that is 1 3/8" wide and drill holes for standard deep side bars to go in and make a frame with a top bar. That way I'll block the bees from exposure like the top bar, but have the support of a frame for the brood chamber. I'll probably just use bars for the harvestable honey.

[Steve-]

M,

Would it be easier to center a complete standard frame under your top bars and then attach? I know that would make for a thick top bar but to get your spacing right wouldn't that be more simple.

steve

[Michael Bush]

I was thinking in terms of being able to use frames or top bars. That way I could just steal a frame of brood or eggs etc from a hive and put it in the top bar hive. I suppose you still could but you have to attach the top bar to the frame while there are bees on it.

Another option, which you could do on any hive, is use 1 x 4 slats for the inner cover and remove only the ones you need to. Tnen you could use regular top bars from frames or make top bars and you don't care about the spaces.

[txbeeguy]

Checked my TBH this past weekend and it's doing great. The bees have built on nine top bars so far and starting comb on the tenth one. I've removed the "bottom board" and the colony is getting a fairly large population built up now. Several of the combs are quite large now and follow the contour of the sloped sides exactly. That is to say, there is no burr comb attached to the sides at all. The combs take the general shape of a triangle with the base being the top bar and then angles down to a rounded "point" (towards the bottom of the trough). I think this will have the added (and unforeseen) benefit of making the comb less likely to break. The comb is strongest at the point of attachement (i.e., all along the top bar) and the further the distance from the top bar, the less comb (and thus, weight) there is to support.
I also tried a little different techinque when putting the bars back together so as to not crush bees between the top bars. I put one bar together next to the other on only one side (one end) and then slowly decreased the spacing between bars - to help encourage the bees to move - those that didn't move, I cleared the space with my hive tool by just making a quick pass down between the top bars. This cleared the space and allowed me to push the bars together completely.
An interesting observation I've noticed the last two times I've worked the TBH is that I've found the queen on the same end comb (that is, the comb closest to the front entrance). I tend to work the hive, starting from the back (about top bar #10 or 11) and work towards the front. Since light is entering the hive mainly at the point where I'm removing the top bars, I suppose the queen is moving towards the front of the hive (towards the darker area). Thus, by the time I'm at the frontmost comb, there she is (having no further combs to move to). The rapid movement of the queen is a little interesting to me since this isn't so observable in a normal Langstroth hive. It was apparent she had been located on about comb #5 or #6 since that's were the most recent eggs had been laid.

[BWrangler]

Hello TxBeeGuy and Everyone,

It's interesting my bees are just starting on topbar 10 and I have had much of the same kind of experience. Only one small attachment, less than an inch. The bees have drawn out the rest leaving a beespace between the edge of the comb and the side of the tbh.

They are in a yellow sweet clover honey flow and continue to draw out more comb with any attachments. It's better than I imagined.

I have also notice how mobile the queen is in the Tbh. She lays on a comb as soon as any space is available. It's quite different compared to what I have seen in my standard hives.

When I have looked for her, I found her easily.

I had planned to replace this queen as her brood pattern in my small cell hives was not too good. Her brood pattern in the Tbh is excellent.

I had wondered if she might not move as easy horizontally as she would vertically before building the Tbh. Maybe I have been reading too many of those vertical oriented bee books :> )

I haven't seen a mite or any mite damage in the Tbh. If need be I will treat with a noncontaiminating method like powdered sugar.

These bees had a mild case of chalkbrood when in the standard hives. After shaking in the tbh, I haven't seen a single mummy.

It's interesting to watch the bees orient to the developing edge of the comb. Brood, pollen, etc arch downward and follow the contour of bottom edge of the comb. Much different what I see in the standard equipment.

Happy Tbhing
Dennis

[dmcdonald]

I've got two top-bar hives. I just started this spring, and haven't done beekeeping any other way. I've been fortunate, in that here in NM there are several top-bar beekeepers who are doing it on a large scale (more than 50 hives). In fact, there's at least one beekeeper here supporting himself and a family with this method of beekeeping. Anyway, because this area seems to be a hotbed of TBH beekeeping, I've had good mentoring. The design I'm using is from Marty Hardison, who was one of the TBH pioneers here. It has sloped sides and takes about 30 bars. I've put insulation in the lids of my hives, because I'd heard about problems with sagging combs. So far, even on the hottest days, the bees don't seem to have to work to keep the hive cool.

For cutting comb attachments, I've been using an old hacksaw blade. It's just the right length and thickness, to slip along the side of the hive and gently cut the comb free. I've also found the end of it to be useful for digging out queen cells.

Despite working without gloves, I haven't yet been stung, which I attribute to the inherent gentleness (on the bees) of this style of hive. I've arrived at the same method someone else described, of easing the bars downward, instead of horizontally, to avoid crushing bees.

Has anyone found a good way to do pollen trapping with a top-bar hive? I'm hoping to find or make a trap which would fit over a row of holes bored midway up the face of the hive.

To be honest, I never got very interested in beekeeping until I found out about top-bar hives. The simplicity and elegance of it somehow captured my imagination. At this point, I'm madly planning for at least another two hives next season.

[dmcdonald]

One more thing about hive construction: the bars I'm using have a wood strip glued into the saw kerf which runs down the middle of the bar. This seems to work well: the only caveat seems to be that the strip shouldn't project out more than 1/2"--I read that a deeper strip causes distorted comb. Anyway, the bees quite happily build comb using these wood ridges as a starting point. I did have an old empty brood comb in each hive to start with, given to me by another TBH beekeeper. That comb at the front of the hive seemed to help the bees build the next comb with the proper orientation. From there, the comb-building has gone well.

[airbalancer]

Hello all
I just posted a couple of new picture of the TBH. I got a great one of the bees on freshly drawn comb from inside the hive. Just thought I would share http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif
Enjoy
Mike

http://home.attbi.com/%7Ethomas24/beekeeping/tbhpics/tbhbees.jpg
http://home.attbi.com/%7Ethomas24/TBH.htm
http://www.appleblossomlane.com

[BWrangler]

Hi Mike,

Your Tbh appears to be in the perfect place with it shingles and green paint.

The cleanout has an advantage for photography too.

Thanks for the shots.

Regards
Dennis
Guess who just bought some more lumber for my second Tbh.

[Jack Grimshaw]

Hi Mike ,
I like your chicken coop but I think you might have too much time on your hands...
Just kidding-----now if you could only figure out how to get the eggs washed and into the fridge.
Fellow chicken owner Jack

[airbalancer]

Thanks Jack,
Maybe I could teach the bees to do it http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

Mike

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

It has been a week since I installed small cell foundation starter
strips in the topbars next to the drawn comb in my topbar hive.

The bees constructed about half a row of small cells next to the
topbar. Then promply switched to the size they preferred. Apparently
they didn't get the hint. It appears they actively know what size
they want and where they want it.

The comb seems more firmly attached to the topbar compared to the
wide blank starter strips I used previously used. A bead of beeswax
down the center of the topbar is probably more than sufficient. Wide
starter strips are detrimental. Starter strips are probably a waste
of time.

I am going to build a little mold out of wood that will set on top of the topbar and allow me to pour molten wax into the grove. A small ridge of beeswax, about 1/2 cell high will remain above the grove when the mold is removed.

Regards
Dennis

I have seen some smaller bees at the entrance of the tbh. They could
have drifted from my small cell hives in the same yard. Will give the hive a more detail inspection next week.

[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited June 22, 2003).]

[BWrangler]

Hello,

The bees in my tbh have constructed the equivalent to a deep super and half of comb. Another 16 topbars are unoccupied so they have plenty of room. Yet they want to swarm.

Anyone else having that same experience?

It appears that once they reach an optimal size they will swarm no matter how much space is available.

Comments?

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

What breed were they?

It seems to me it depends on several things. The time of year, the success of the hive, the breed of the bees and the amount of room. If several of these push the same direction they will swarm even if all of them are not there. Sometimes they will swarm at the wrong time. Sometimes they will swarm when they have room. Sometimes they will swarm when they are not succeeding.

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

I worked with my Tbh today. A very nasty day with a winter storm warning for tonight. Sat by the hive for over ah hour without any protection and removed any traces of starter strips from the topbars leaving only the saw kerf filled with beeswax. Quite a pleasant experience with no disturbance to the bees at all.

As the makeup of my hive changes from small cell (4.9mm) bees to larger (5.3mm) cell bees, the bees needs for a larger topbar width is becoming apparent. Initially, I used 1 1/4". It worked perfectly for the first 9 topbars but the center of the any new comb is now drifting slightly toward the rear of the hive. I will use 1 3/8" width next time.

Regards
Dennis

[chiefman]

Dennis

I love your hive design.

I want to biuld one with the top bars 19" inches long rather than 24" like your so i can swap them into my lang.

Only thing is your bottom of the hive is about 10" inches wide ( where the holes are )so a hive of 19 inches on the top would mean the bottom of my hive would be about 5" inches wide( if i keep the angle of 22.5 degrees.)

would this be too small for an entrance. I wanted to keep the entrance on the bottom so if water gets in the hive it will just spill out

[Michael Bush]

>I want to biuld one with the top bars 19" inches long rather than 24" like your so i can swap them into my lang.

That's what I did, but with square sides I can go both ways.

>...would mean the bottom of my hive would be about 5" inches wide...would this be too small for an entrance. I wanted to keep the entrance on the bottom so if water gets in the hive it will just spill out

What about a bottom and a top entrance? Or a double decker. Leave the opening across the bottom and another a little above it?

I went with 1 1/2" strips and the bees tried to crowd it a little in the brood chamber but seem content with it in the honey area. Maybe it would be smart to have two different width bars for those two areas?

[BWrangler]

Greetings Chiefman and Everyone,

Research has shown that swarms prefer an entrance of about 15 cm square. I think that works out to around 2 square inches so the bottom would be wide enough for that. But the hive would be very tippy.

Four supporting pieces of 2x6 could be cut as long as the hive is tall with one side cut off at the same angle as the slope of the hive. These pieces could be mounted vertically on each side near the end. Two crosspieces that would go under each supporting piece and the bottom of the hive could be cut. This would add more stability to the hive.

Another alternative would be to forget the bottom board and extend the sides down until a 3/4" slot is left. A hinged board could be fastened down the most of the length of the leaving a entrance on the bottom at one end.

The supporting pieces mentioned above could then be fastened to each end.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

I got into my top bar hive today. WHAT A MESS! I will not do straight walls on a TBH again. They attached all over the place. They also didn't follow my strips. From the front of the hive back they kept trying to curve the ends and the end would be on the next bar forward. After the brood nest they just ignored them completely and built some of them at right angles to the bars.

I never did find the queen, I just gave up.

I did take a chunk of comb that broke off. Yummy. The taste is awsome.

My first top bar hive that I built in the early seventies, having never seen a TBH nor a trough hive, was the size of a Lanstroth on top and had sloped sides. The bars were made of scrap 2 x 2's that had a 12 degree angle cut to the center line and a strip of foundation put in a groove down that center line. Then a notch on the ends so they would rest flat. The bees followed this pretty well and I think I may return to it. Although I might just fill the groove with wax. The slope was the same as a cell slopes so that they would want the cell to end up on the ridge of the bar. The biggest problem I had with that one was it was too small. The bars were a lot of work to make with a skill saw though. I also made some using a plane, but they were also a lot of work.

[BWrangler]

Hi Michael and Everyone,

I have been wondering at what angle the bees start attaching the comb. I had thought about building a test box but it would be alot easier to just as all you tbh guys what your experience is.

At 22.5 degrees off vertical only one minor attachment less than 1" long for my thb.

Any other reports, experiences ?

I have also noted a tendancy to bend the ends of the comb toward the hive entrance. I have just cut them and bent them back toward the center of the bar. Not sure it that works yet though.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

My first hive, if I remember right, was exactly 22.5 degrees. I can't remember if I got the number from reading something somewhere or averaging out the angle of a natural comb. But I had about the same experience. An occasional little burr running over to the side, but for the most part no significant attachments. It would be interesting to know how much difference it would make if it was 10 degrees or 15 degrees etc. How much of a difference it would make.

[BWrangler]

Hello,

I've got another tbh cut out much like the last one except 6" taller, 6" wider and a 10 degree slope. I'm not sure whether I will put bees in it this season. I'll probably wait as it's getting pretty late in the year here in Wyoming.

And if anyone has experience with tbhs at 10 degrees that could sure save me some trouble if it doesn't work well at that angle.

Regards
Dennis

[BWrangler]

Fantastic Greetings Everyone,

The bees in my Tbh are doing it. They are now building 4.8mm and 4.9mm brood comb in the brood area during a major honey flow! And it's not just scattered patches. They are doing it on the vast majority of combs. Hurray for the bees!!!!

The bees initially drew comb about 1/3 the depth of the hive and expanded horizontally without lengthing the comb. Since the yellow sweet clover has started to bloom and a major honey flow is on the bees have returned to the brood area and completed the combs.

They started at the topbar with 5.3mm worker and very gradually decreased the size until a little over halfway to the bottom of the hive 4.9mm comb is being drawn uniformly. Two thirds of the way down the 4.8mm comb is being uniformly drawn out.

That feral hive picture of Joe Waggles shows just how the bees do it. Whether they sense the bottom of the cavity or just what triggers the small cell is a mystery. They sure didn't want it where I placed the small cell starter strips! But they do gradually taper the brood comb to small cell size toward the bottom of the nest, even in a shallow nest like my tbh as compared to Joes feral hive.

The first 10 topbars are essentially brood comb and the bees are rapidly constructing honey storage type comb on topbars 11 and 12.

I can't believe such a change can take place in such a short time. I am so happy I could dance!

I have posted some shots on the biobee photo page.

Better Than Best Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

Maybe I'm just not doing this right.
http://www.gsu.edu/~biojdsx/becomb.htm

Here, Satterfield says:

"Managing tbh's requires a great deal of cutting and trimming on occasions. A cradle to hold the comb is very useful. I also use a 5-bar "super" often to hold combs that I have removed from the hive for some reason.


Scissors are useful for trimming comb. If it is possible to heat the scissors in boiling water, they cut easier and cleaner. The cradle is seen more clearly in this photo."

Maybe I need to take each bar and trim the sides a bit and clean the burr off of the box and paint it all with FGMO. I've done the FGMO before to cut down on connections, but haven't really bothered this one much. I could cut all the curving ends off and the attchments back a bit. Maybe that's the way to manage it.

[Steve-]

Hello All:

I have not had comb that curved forward or back but I do have comb that is really thick at times. When I encounter a thick comb I have to have more than one bar space to remove it from the hive. The comb will be centered but just wide. I do not usually find it attached at the top to an addtitional bar. When it is harvested I take all of the comb off of the bar instead of leaving some as a pattern to be followed.

My two hives have straight sides and I do have some comb attachment on the sides but it is not out of hand. I noticed when reading some early comments on this tbh board that concern was given to allowing the bees to draw comb as naturally as possible. I think I have done that except for increasing the number of bars being drawn. Once the bees have started drawing comb I seperate my bars so I can insert an empty bar between two that are being drawn. This does two things: 1. it forces the bees to start a new bar before they may naturally choose to do so. This increases the number of bars with comb at a faster rate. Thus creating additional brood space. 2. the drawn bars act as a pattern for the bar being drawn. I consider this to be part of the management Mr. Satterfield speaks of.

When I find attachment and I find it on nearly all the bars right where the bar and hive come together. Over time the attachment might grow longer down the side of the box but I try to open and check my hive every week to ten days. It is during this time that I cut and remove comb attachmnet.

In reading this board I too may want to try sloped sided hives.

Happy Hiving
steve

[Michael Bush]

Well, I tried to work it today. It was a disaster. The first two combs were all crosscombed and little short diagnal combs running from one bar to the next. The next to combs were attached on the sides AND the bottom. I put them on a screened bottom board. I wonder if that contributed? In spite of cutting the connections the next two combs fell off on their own. They were about 3/4 honey and 1/4 brood. It was a total mess. I pulled out all of the top bars that weren't drawn and the ones that fell apart, and put in frames.

Maybe Barry is the smart one. The combs need some kind of reinforcement.

I do think the square combs add to the problem. That outside corner full of honey really puts some strain on everything. I didn't have this many problems when I had the sloping sides and the comb was not as wide at the bottom. Also I didn't have problems with them following the bars when I had a slope on the bottom of the top bars.

[BWrangler]

Hi Michael and Everyone,

I used blank starter strips in a saw kerf down the middle of my topbars. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but the bees started drawing comb at the bottom edge of the starter with only a few minor connections between the top bar and most of the drawn comb. It's a really weak point!

I thought the bees would return and reinforce it but the bees haven't returned and really connected the comb to the topbar yet.

Could your starter strip and how it was attached be causing the comb to fail?

Steve, do you use starter strips or ?

Regards
Dennis

[Steve-]

Hi All:

Michael sorry you had a hard day in the hive. Your story reminded me of similiar happenings in my hive two years ago. I came home after work and it had been running 100+ degrees for three or four days straight. I found honey running out of my hive and comb had sealed the entrance causing the inside to get even hotter. amazingly I did not lose my queen even though I lost 5lbs of bees and several gallons of honey. That was not much fun. Looking at Mr. Satterfield's page it looks as though his hives are pretty shallow. Just my perspective on his pictures.

Dennis - I no longer use starter strips. I did my first year but only for the first 3 or 4 bars. I made my strips too wide that first time around and observed what you described. Once my bees started pulling comb out on those first three or four bars I started inserting blanks between drawn or started comb. I did not and do not use starter strips any more. I don't use anything but a blank bar - no slope or wood strip. Just a plain flat blank 1 3/8" bar. When first made I cut a kerf in all the lumber I use for bars. I have not filled in the kerf. The bars are put on as is - so far the bees pull comb centered down the top bar. Are the centers of the combs right on the kerf and no is the answer - but they are on and off it with the resulting comb being straight. The only difficulty is from time to time I will get an extra wide comb. I had one this weekend that was three inches wide.

Happy Hiving,
steve

[Michael Bush]

It broke right across the top, but the starter strip didn't go with the comb, it stayed attached to the bar. My starter strips are quite thick. I have used sloped top bars in the past and had better luck. Also the combs weren't as large because of the slope the sides on my past hives. Also the bees weren't counting on attachements for reinformcement on my past hives because they didn't attach them. I think I should have either sloped the sides or made the box shallower.

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

I learned a little lesson today. I have been making a few small horizontal cuts and recentering some of the comb near the edge of the hive. Yesterday, I did the same. Cut about 2 inches in from the end of the topbar to straighten out the end of a comb. Until today it seemed to work fine.

Well, a heavy flow is on and those bees filled that comb with nectar before they reattached the comb. It's hot, very hot.

The comb failed and unzipped itself from the topbar sometime during the last 24 hours.

Watch those horizontal cuts or any horizontal damage to the comb when it's hot and heavy.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

My top bar hive is no more. I checked it today and three of the five remaing top bars had "unzipped". The starter strip is staill attached, but right below that is where they broke off. I cut out what brood I could salvage, and rubber banded it into empty medium frames and took the last of the top bars out. I transfered them all to two mediums now.

Next time, if there is a next time, I think I'll do longer but shallower combs and possibly sloped sides also.

I still am interested in doing long hives to eliminate lifting. I love to be able to check the brood chamber without moving five heavy supers.

I have built and hope to soon populate, a double wide Dadant deep hive.

[BWrangler]

Hi Michael,

Sorry to hear of the unzipping. When I saw how my bees worked with the starter strips it was obvious that the junction of the bottom of the starter strip and comb was a very weak area. I took my hive tool and cut all the remaining starter strips out of my hive.

Eventually, I will remove all the starter strip based comb.

The vertical support piece I added to the comb adds quite a bit of strength to the comb. One of my purposes for my tbh was to observe natural comb building and the vertical pieces got in the way somewhat. So I removed them. The difference is amazing.

But I think the most of the advantages of the tbh could be had in a long hive. Frames could be substituted for topbars and an approach like "unfoundation" could be used. The bees would build variable sized worker cells and the expense of foundation would be eliminated.

I'm learning the more I try to help the bees the more problems are created. My thb is teaching me to stand back and get out of the way. :> )

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

The TBH and another hive I started this spring are just blank starter strips so I can still watch what they do with the comb. I'm thinking some kind of support in the comb is really necessary to be able to work it without disasters.

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

I have finally built a web page with some photographs and comments. It's been along time coming, but I had to just bite the bullet and get it done. You can access it at:
www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/confessions/confessions.htm (http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/confessions/confessions.htm)

Regards
Dennis
Who likes working the bees better than working the computer

[Steve-]

Dennis,

You did a great job with your site. I agree with your observations but some would say your experiments need to be repeated before a conclusion is drawn. But like I said earlier I agree with your observations (with a little help from the bees we just might learn a thing or two!).

Happy Hiving,
steve

[Michael Bush]

I have enjoyed my experiments both with top bars and blank starters and with medium frames with blank starters. I knew bees built comb of worker and drone size but had no idea that there was that much variation.

I'm not sure how letting them make whatever size they want works out in respect to the mites etc. But I would like to continue the experiment.

I would recommend you use the queen you want for a drone mother for that hive. My Italian bees on medium frames sure built a lot of drone comb. My Carnolian hive on top bars didn't build as much but did build more than you get with foundation.

[airbalancer]

Hello Denis
I noticed you linked to my top bar page but the link isn't working because some updating I was doing to my site, You can try this one though.
Cheers http://home.comcast.net/~beekeeper23/TBH.htm

[Michael Bush]

I'm considering what I want to build to replace the Top Bar Hive.

What I'd like to end up with is a trough hive that doesn't require lifting. Natural comb the is arranged by size and orientation the ways the bees wish it. Combs strong enough to be manipulated without the combs breaking and falling off. Some interchanablility with my Lanstroth equpipment. Cheap and simple to build.

I'm thinking of making it the width of a Lanstroth with the sides straight down for the depth of a medium and then angled in for the depth of a Dadant Deep. Since all my hives are mediums this would give me the advantage of being able to add a frame of brood or eggs or a queen cell from one of my other hives if I want. I could also pull frames out of the TBH and put them in my one Dadant deep hive if I want.

There are several possibilities then for a frame (not a real TBH if I do. I know.). I'm leaning toward Barry's idea of the "hoop" on the bottom. I could just using medium frames and let them hang some comb off of the bottom or take a Dadant deep frame and shorten the bottom bar to make it angled on the sides. Or I could use 3/8" dowels for angled sides and an 1/8" or 3/16" dowel for a bottom bar.

What do you think?

Of course when I started this idea I was trying to simplifiy it as much as possible and this is getting more complicated.

Has anyone thought about or tried taking hardware cloth and wax dipping it for foundation? Say 1/4" or 1/2"? Maybe they would follow the wires for the combs and it would make it strong enough and keep it straight?

[beekeeper28]

MB - I have not started a TBH to date but I'm very intereasted as you know if you recall other posts that I have made. I have been thinking along the same lines as your last post. So just for thought...

How would a frame with the hoop style be interchangable with a medium lang. Unless it was made like a two piece frame. I seen a frame just like this in a book from the libary used for the dorsata honey bee. This bee is the one that makes one big comb with brood at the top and honey at the bottom. So they developed a hinge style frame wher ethe honey could be removed and the brood left in place. If the top part could be the same size as a medium frame ...

Second is a bottom support required if a top and side support was provided?

[Michael Bush]

>So just for thought... How would a frame with the hoop style be interchangable with a medium lang.

Not interchanable but I could pull a medium frame of brood and eggs out or a medium frame with a queen cell out of one of my other hives and put it in the TBH. Also, I could pull a frame from the TBH and put it in my Dadant Deep hive. But not vica versa.

>Unless it was made like a two piece frame. I seen a frame just like this in a book from the libary used for the dorsata honey bee. This bee is the one that makes one big comb with brood at the top and honey at the bottom. So they developed a hinge style frame wher ethe honey could be removed and the brood left in place. If the top part could be the same size as a medium frame ...

I thought of this, but it's kind of hard to build. I've also thought of something similar with my Dadant Deep hive for comb honey.

>Second is a bottom support required if a top and side support was provided?

I'm not sure what is required. I built a TBH a long time ago and don't remember that many problems as long as I was careful, but it depends on how hot the day is etc. Also it had sloped sides and the bars came to an upside down peak so the combs were straighter. Sides might do it, but I'd feel better with support all around.

[Michael Bush]

I suppose my other thought, if I used regular medium frames in it, is that I could cut the comb off of the bottom and it would fit in a regular medium without any other trouble.

[Steve-]

MB,

I too had thought about using the hoop with a top bar. As I surfed for more info I ran across a picture where hoops had been used. I changed my mind about using them because the bees did not stop at the hoop support - they kept building comb and it was attached everywhere. I have looked for the photos of the hoop designed top bar but I am yet to find them.

I still think it might be done if you can insure beespace between the hive and the hoop.

Happy Hiving!
steve

[Michael Bush]

Yes they will go past the hoop, but the hoop will support it when you pull it loose from any attachments and will help hold it up on the 100 degree or more days.

If you could maintain a beespace it would work better. But wood bends as it will and isn't that precice.

[txbeeguy]

Just posted five new TBH photos on my Yahoo profile. These are pictures of fully drawn out comb from my TBH.
Today was the first time I've check in on the hive in quite some time - I was very please with want I found. Only one comb had a little brace comb attached to the side of the hive (and it was a small, inch strip).
What I did notice was the bees continue to draw out wax. Last time I checked was about a month ago and they had drawn out wax to nine top bars. Today's check showed comb drawn to 13 top bars and they were festooing on TB #14 and #15.
There has been a lot of discussion about starter strips and the bees drawing out curved comb toward the ends of the bar. I will now offer my first observation about this. I don't really know if this is a "cause and effect" or not, but it's an interesting observation none the less. On my first several top bars I used starter strip foundation which stuck out below the bottom surface of the top bar about about a 1/4-inch (perhaps just a bit more). Now here's the main point I want to make, the length of the strip was almost as wide as the top bar (19 inches, in my case). As I was using very old (and brittle) cut comb foundation, my starter strips began to get shorter in length - I think you can see this in one or more of my photos. The bees have drawn out perfectly parallel comb the entire length of my top bars. That is, up until now. Now I've noticed on top bar #10 and #11 they have begun this 'curved end' thing that was discussed previously. This also corresponds to the bars that had (have) only a relatively short starter strip placed in the center of the bar. I can't help but think if the bees had a long starter strip in place, they would continue to draw out perfectly parallel comb like they did in the beginning.

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,
I think that might just be the magic combination for starter strips. Embossed, no longer than 1/4" and almost all the way down the bar looks like the right combination.

I looked in the tbh today. Very interesting. The bees have stopped working horizontally again and are applying efforts vertically. Queen had reduced laying and bees are now filling drone comb and larger worker comb with honey. Maybe 4 to 5 topbars of brood total.

The bees are getting ready for winter. Reducing colony size. Terminating drone rearing. Storing honey in larger cells exterior to the small cell area.

It's obvious that they are quite content to operate in the deep to 2 deep volume this season, with small cell worker comb about 1/2 to 3/4 of a deep.

Looks like it's going to take some tbh management to trick the bees into constructing a larger broodnests if I want to fill the whole box. Maybe that's where inserting those empty topbars between brood combs comes in or possibly run a two queen colony with one queen on each end, honey in the middle.

The brood combs were lightly attached, but the honey combs were attached completely about 1/3 of the way down the sidewall. Not difficult to handle. Just took a little extra time.

It was 90 degrees today and the tbh wasn't too hot to work. I think when the temps are mid to upper 90's its too hot and the wax is too fragile.

What a pleasure to work the tbh. I turned an empty super on its end and sat down by the side of my tbh. No hurry. No angry bees. Nothing heavy to lift. Just very pleasant bee work.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

I'm wondering what spring will bring. If they work their way to one end and the queen wants to start laying, I wonder if the cluster will work it's way back to the worker size comb? Or if they will rework the comb where they are? I look forward to hearing people's observations.

[Steve-]

MB,

I found the pictures using wood strips/hoops with a top bar. Mr. Barton's site follows - just scroll through the site - he has put some thought into his TBH design. http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/WorkingTheHive/WorkingTheHive.html

Happy Hiving,
steve

[Michael Bush]

Here's a site with a nice top bar. The bars are sloped, like I was planning to do, and they have extra grooves so the combs get attached better. See what you think:
http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/CK5/CK5.html

[BWrangler]

Greetings,

Wyatt Mangum in this months ABJ talks about his tbh operation. It's an interesting read but I disagree with some of his conclusions. Check it out.

If a person has enough experience to build a tbh, figuring out feeders,etc. should not be a problem. That is, excepting those of us raised in the modern world where we lack any sense and have to buy everything :> )

Actually, Wyatt Mangum is right if a person has absolutely no experience with bees.

So I've expanded the Management section under Confessions at:
www.geocities.com/usbwrangler (http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler)

to include information on correcting comb, cutting comb, handling topbars, feeding sugar and pollen sub. Would someone actually read my web page and then build a tbh without checking out the resources?

Lots of the ideas came from you guys. I tried them and now use them. Thanks

Regards
Dennis


[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited July 26, 2003).]

[Scot Mc Pherson]

Just want to say hello to the folks on this thread. I am building 3 KTBH's this year for next spring.

I kept bees between the years of 1985 and 1990, but due to circumstances of being 15 and not in any sort of control of my circumstances, I was forced to stop keeping bees. Essentially the first year I was keeping bees remotely and too far away to effectively even have been beekeeping. The subsequent years I was forced to keep my hives in the woods away from the house because my mother was allergic to stinging and biting insects, and I couldn't convince her that having them around would even noticibly increase bees population.

Anyway, for the last 5 years my sincere interest in beekeeping has been rekindling, but for one reason or another I haven't been able to start a colony when the timing was right. Either having lost a job, gotten married, bought a new house, etc etc. As you can see I registered on these boards some 2 years ago, but I never got the chance to post (cause I didn't have anything to post about). Anyway this year I have a conviction to get my hives going.

I live in Sarasota FL, and have been doing my research pretty thoroughly. I have been completely sold on the concept of KTBHs and also on biological beekeeping. It only makes sense. When I started beekeeping, I am not sure there were really any resources to speak of for a 15 year old boy to find. (There was no internet even similar to what there is now).

I am building 3 KTBH to these internal dimensions based on material I read regarding prefered hive volume, and other considerations:

H: 10 Inches (25cm)
Top Width: 16 Inches (40cm)
(I think the shorter comb will promote straigter comb)
Bottom Width: 8 inches (20cm)
(This gives a slope of roughly 30 degrees (guessing, I had the slope figured for a height of 12 inches at 26.5 degrees)
Length: 48.25 inches (125 cm) roughly 35 TBs at 35mm.

When I have regressed my bees, I can plane off 3mm from the top bars and add 3 more top bars to the hive.

I plan on procurring regressed bees for 1 or 2 hives, and regressing large bees myself. The reason for this is I think having the already regressed bees is a healthy decision to make, with smaller chance of hive failure due to a regression in progress, plus having the regressed bees will aide in the regression of the larger bees. I also have firmly convinced myself that it is meritorious to add genetic diversity to the regressed pool of bees, and so I want to help and do my part.

Hopefully in some shorter than logner time, I can be a supplier of biologically balanced bees in my regional locale. In the state of florida, Varroa and other perhaps secondary diseases are a ravaging force here, forcing a GREAT majority of beekeepers out of business. The other force being the Small Hive Beatle which apparently is a real manace here.


Anyway, the reasons why I picked the KTBH design as opposed to others are simplicity of design (the TBH factor), and the Kenyan TBH because of the trapazoidal shape of the comb. After having read through this thread (which took me 2 days). A few peoples experiences have confirmed for me that the reduced amount of mechanical stress of the trapazoidal shape is what reduces attachment to the hive body, not a sense of floor. The bees naturally build the comb with a curvilinear perimeter if unconstrianed by space, such as a free hanging comb in a tree, and the reduced weigth at the bottom reduces the need for mechanical support of attachments. Plus I also think the hive looks more interesting when its something other than a "Box".


Anyway all comments and suggestion are welcome.

Thanx for having me.


------------------
--
Scot Mc Pherson
"Linux is a Journey, not a Guided Tour" ~ Me

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited July 30, 2003).]

[airbalancer]

Hello all
I posted a new picture of the TBH today and also noticed a few things. The clean out door on the back of my hive is attached to a piece of ¼” plywood the size of the hive floor. I did this so I could inspect for mites and whatever. I have also been leaving the door open a half inch or so for ventilation and a dead out for the bees. When I pulled it out today I found some wax moth worms crawling around. Apparently from pulling the door in and out over the summer, some wax dropping get built up under it giving the worms some good cover. After pulling it out I left it for a little while and witnessed several more worms being promptly escorted from the hive in the clutches of some angry bees. Is there anything I could put on the hive floor to help this problem?
The bees have drawn out about half of the 26 top bars in the hive, and it is interesting to see how the have followed the walls of the hive exactly. They are attaching to the walls but the hack saw blade I have been using seems to make quick work of severing them. I am thinking that a more aggressive blade like a wood cutting bow saw blade would be a little quicker but I haven’t tried that yet. The bees in the TBH are a pleasure to work with, very docile; I usually don’t even need any smoke. It does take a little more time and finesse to inspect but I expect that will decrease with practice. I will be looking forward to next years honey harvest, as the package of bees didn’t arrive till 2nd week of June.

Mike
http://home.comcast.net/~beekeeper23/tbhpics/newcomb.jpg

[Michael Bush]

Great picture.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

That IS a beautiful picture.

As far as the moths go, eventually every hive has some level of moth larvae present in the hives, they drop and feed on the drippings on the floor. It normal and apart of how nature deals with the excess that is present int he bottom of every feral hive. What you have to worry about is the hive becoming weak enough for the moths to actually make a permanent home in the comb.

Doing your house cleaning is a good idea, and I would keep doing it. But seeing wax moths in the bottom of your hive is usually not a cause for alarm, unless the number of them is alarming. The bees don't feel the need to defend their trash.


[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 02, 2003).]

[BWrangler]

Nice Shot.

I had a small disaster in my tbh today.

Temps in the mid 80's and I thought I would check out the tbh and take a few comb shots.

Bees were doing great and I was into the hive about 6 topbars from the rear. All full of honey and draw out completely.

Cut 3 comb less that 2" on one end to make a comb correction. They all unzipped about 15 minutes later. What a mess!!!

I've come to the conclusion that comb corrections can't be made to anything but empty comb.

Some additional thoughts. I used a hive tool which is a very poor instrument to cut attachments in a tbh. They are very blunt and all the force is applied toward the bottom of the hive. This could have been a major factor in the comb failure.

Using a hacksaw blade, serated knife or modified radio antenna would be different. Attachments could be cut from the bottom up. The cutting force could be applied toward the top of the tbh reducing the stress on the very fragile new comb.

Comments?

Regards
Dennis



[This message has been edited by BWrangler (edited August 04, 2003).]

[BWrangler]

Greetings Everyone,

Some very sad news but I hope others can learn from my mistake. I've lost my tbh :>((

I had routinely salvaged any damaged comb by placing it at the rear of the hive in a plastic container. I had removed the container a few weeks back.

When the 3 combs failed, I placed them on the bottom board at the rear of the hive.

Returning the next morning with the plastic container, I found honey running out the hive entrance with half of the bees on the outside.

Massive destruction occurred inside the tbh. All but one comb had failed.

In my tbh design, most of the ventilation occures along the floor. When honey oozed from the 3 combs at the rear of the hive, ventilation was disrupted which started a chain reaction.

I don't think weak attachments caused by my blank starter strips helped much either.

The bees are now in a standard hive and I've got 3 buckets of honeycomb. Yikes!

As someone use to write, I'm sadder but wiser.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

So, Dennis, what do you think you will do differently?

Mine went down like a row of dominoes also. It's very frustrating. It was doing so well and then it was like a disaster that spread on it's own.

I am considering doing the slope on the bars so that the bees will keep more to the middle. Perhaps some steps to reinforce the connection of the comb to the bar? Like some grooves? Perhaps some wax dipped hardware cloth to reinforce the comb? Perhaps a shallower comb would have more attachment at the top for the amount of weight it supports?

[airbalancer]

Hello all
I'm sorry to hear about your hives going south. Now you've got me worried. How about wider top bars, or something as easy as using rough saw wood to give the comb a "tooth" to hold on to. On my 1 3/8" top bars I cut a saw kerf down the middle then cut ¾" x 9" strips of foundation and waxed them in using the wax tube melter. Even though the bars are 17" long , the comb has been very straight so far. I probably didn't even need the starter strips. You could also put in a higher floor to limit the size of the comb.

Mike

[Russ]

Maybe more ventilation would be a plus.

[BWrangler]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your concern.

The entrance on my hive is a series of 3/4 holes drilled across the bottom front edge of the hive. I used the optimum of 15 square cm as a guide and then added a couple more.

I think the tbh was better able to control the hive environment as compared to my standard hives. But there is less ventilation near the top, with most of the transfer taking place along the bottom 1/4 of the hive.

In the honey storage area, most of the combs are almost solidly attached to the sidewall. And with just a tight beespace between the combs bottom edge and the bottom board, ventilation space is tight.

When the cover is removed and the hive is opened up, the hive interior, the comb and the topbars are directly exposed to the sun and the heat. If the combs are placed on a holding frame outside the hive, additional heat and wind can add stress to the comb.

Activity continues uninterrupted toward the front of the hive. But when combs are moved toward the rear of the hive after inspecting them, most activity on them stops. Heat builds up.

Newly built storage comb constructed during a heavy flow is mostly honey and very weak. When attached to the sidewall, it is strong enough that the hive can be moved without damaging it. But when it's hot and cut free from the sidewall, it takes very little additional stress to cause it to fail.

I am sure some of the additional stress came from my hive tool as I pushed down to bulldoze the attachments loose.

All these were factors, but the final straw occurred when when I placed those broken combs at the rear of the hive. Some honey flowed along the bottom board and caused the ventilating bees to retreat toward the front of the hive. It doesn't take much honey, either.

With temps in the mid 90's and the additional stresses, the comb got hot, fast, then failed starting at the back of the hive and progressing foward. Each domino released more honey forcing the bees out of the hive.

Conclusions:

Full, newly drawn storage comb is very, very fragile. It should never be handled when it's hot. Maybe it shouldn't be handled at all during the first year.

Never put anything in the hive that will disrupt the ventilation.

The hive should not be worked when the temps are too hot. When the hive is first opened, the bees have everything under control, but things can rapidly change, expecially with the added time it takes to work a tbh. Not much change will be seen by the beekeeper until the comb fails.

Don't use a hive tool to remove attachments. Use Steve's cutting tool instead.

I am considering a different entrance pattern. Rather than a long series of small holes across the bottom front, it might be better to have a series of holes tiered in one corner and a couple of small holes towards the top. At least the bees could get out if a comb collapsed.

Regards
Dennis

[Scot Mc Pherson]

For the entrance, the 15cm^2 is a figure that relates to a single entrance hole. When you increase the number of holes, but maintain the 15cm^2 area you are increasing the drag and friction of the total aperture because there is greater surface area ratio of 'wood : air'.

The ratio wood : air while using a single 15cm^2 circular aperture is 13.73 cm of wood or 15cm^2 : 13.73cm of wood surface. When using 15 holes equaling 1cm^2 each ( totalling 15cm^2, then the ratio of wood : air is 15cm^2 : 53.2cm of wood.

To give you a direct analogy, take plumbing. If you have a 1 inch feed to a faucet, a huge amount of water can pass through through the plumbing. Feed that same faucet with 15 equal pipes totalling 1 inch of cross section area, and te flow is GREATLY diminished. You are increasing the surface area that the water must come in contact with, therefore increasing the drag.

In a beehive entrance, the same princples apply. A bee although not a particle of water is of a certain given rough size. The size of the bee when it walks through the entrance of the hive takes up just a bit of space of that entrance, reducing the entrance by the size of one bee. Going back to the water plumbing analogy with the single larger aperture, more bees can fit through the entrance than 15 holes that equal 15cm^2.

Oh how does this contribute to hive meltdown? Well because each be takes up some space in the entrance, there is less space available for air to flow through the entrance. Air is also hindered by the increased surface area ratio described about, but it is most greatly compounded by the fact that there are bees in the way of the air flow. In the single aperture, there is less demand for space within the aperture, and air is more freely flowing allowing greater ventilation.

Please understand that I am not at all criticizing anyone's designs for a hive, I consider myself extremely lucky to have all your first year experiences to draw from. What I am doing is collecting your experiences and observations and compiling them together in my mind, and plan to commit to paper/webspace your collective experiences, flavored with the benefit of a my very limited engineering knowledge and design what I consider (based on all your experiences) to be a perfect top bar hive "design". In the end it will remain to be seen how successful my own top bar hive will be next year, but I do plan to commit my ideas and your experiences, and then make amendments as your experiences my own experiences next year prove or disprove my theories of good hive design.

It is my sincere desire that that we all will benefit from this, a great deal of this will be my own conjecture based on what you all have shared here. But I think what I have in mind will prove beneficial dispite my lack of personal and direct experience with top bar hives. If it interests you-the-group, I would like to make this an evolving document designed to continually improve hive design and management.

Can I have some input on the idea?

[Russ]

Would a screened bottom board area and more upper ventilation have helped??????? Just asking, maybe!!!!

[BWrangler]

Hi Scot, Russ and Everyone,

I quite sure the hive would be doing fine today if I hadn't touched it. I went out to work my standard hives and take just one picture from the rear of the tbh. When I opened them up everything was fine. No bees on the outside. Just a few bees ventilating.

I cut a couple of attachments and made several small adjustments on a couple of combs at the rear. The wax was stiff and cool. I should have stopped right there, but didn't.

I decided to do a complete shoot of every frame in the hive. I moved the adjusted combs toward the back and began removing other combs and shooting them, a very slow process. I was probably at it about an hour.

Heat stress built up as a result of my intrusion and the adjusted combs failed. I set the hive together. Honey flowed from the combs at the back and bee ventilation failed.

Operator error all the way!

Ventilation was an unknown when I designed the hive. I figured it would be pretty easy to drill a few more holes if needed. But the bees seemed to be able to control the hive atmosphere better than in my standard hives. Fewer bees fanning and for shorter periods on hot days. Looser clusters, more bee movement on cooler days. I liked it and left it.

Barry and I talked about what kind of entrance the tbh hives should have. Research indicated that a 1 1/4" hole was optimum. Barry put that on the end of his hive. How's it working for you Barry?

I was concerned about field mice problems and winter winds. And opted for a series of smaller, plugable holes with about twice the optimum area.

It's not uncommon when working hives here, to set any frames removed from standard equipment in the shade or they will quickly get soft and sag. Frames inside the boxes can take the stress. But not so with topbar comb.

Regards
Dennis
Unlearning a bazillion hive years worth of standard beekeeping habits

[Michael Bush]

Maybe when we all get the hang of this we can put together some basic recommendations on working a top bar hive. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif Like never work them if the temperature is over 75 degrees F? Never work them unless you have a good reason? Never work them at all? Of course this brings to mind the issue of checking for a queen when the weather is hot and the population is dwindling etc.

I can't seem to find any good directions in this regard. Satterfields page is nice but there aren't a lot of directions on how to prevent the problems we have all been having.

There are so many things I liked about TBHs, I think I will try it again next spring. I'm still planning what I will try then. I'm leaning a bit toward a trough hive of Lanstroth dimensions, medium depth so there isn't as much weight below for the attachment above, 48 3/4" long (3 Langstroth boxes, 33 bars) with a screened bottom board. Also, I'm thinking of bars that slope to the middle for better comb alignment and maybe some cuts for better attachment. The bars I had that unzipped, my starter strips stayed on the bars. They were waxed in with a wax tube fastener.

With medium depth and Langstroth dimensions I could interchange with my other hives and if they all unzip again, I can just put them in medium frames without a lot of waste.

[Scot Mc Pherson]

If you look at his site again you will notice that all his hives are in the shade, or have shade during a good portion of the day. That one tree gum looking TBH observatino hive melted down cause it was in direct sun. So I don't think he had as much heat to worry about.

I do think design has a lot to do with in. Lik ein teh case of BWrangler, if the hive were a KTBH deisgned so the comb met the natural dimentsion and didn't feel the need to support the comb from the bottom and side, that ventilation would have been highly increased. Also the entrance design contributions. I will experiemnt this coming year with some different designs concepts I have in mind.

[This message has been edited by Scot Mc Pherson (edited August 07, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

Mine was in the shade. All the comb in it collapsed. I think BWrangler has sloped sides on his. Mine was regular Langstroth frame dimensions but as long as two boxes side by side (32 1/2" or 22 bars) and had a screened bottom board. None of this was enough to help. I certainly will plan on putting the next one in the shade also. I also will plan on NOT working it in the heat.

[beekeeper28]

Has any one talked to Satterfield and asked if he has ever experienced this?

[BWrangler]

Hi Guys,

The thing that sticks in my mind was the total lack of warning that the comb was in trouble. The comb toward the front of the hive was stiff and the attachments were not easy to cut. It was not hot.

But after working the comb, it was moved to the rear of the hive and not worked again. That's where it accumulated the heat and suffered from the stress of being worked.

When it failed, I was quite surprised. The attachments at the front of the hive were still stiff. The failed comb was quite weak and almost pulpy. It was very hard to recover intact.

I think a change in management would solve the problem. In the midwest and western states, the honey flow always occures when the temps are hot. Sometimes more hot air from the outside could be as bad as too little bee ventilation.

Any incursion should be very quick. If more space is needed then some frames at the rear of the hive are quickly harvested.

But maybe a means of venting the accumulated heat is necessary. I will be looking forward to Scot's experiments and will be try a few of my own.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking...holes it tbhs, it easy to drill em or fill em.

[Labeille]

I'm familiar with top bar hives but when winter comes and the cluster is in the middle of the hive it would have to work one way or the other. After a while they would run out of room and starve or would they move their way back to the other side in a cluster? Frogive me if this is a stupid question im just curious.

[Labeille]

Sorry i meant to say im not familiar

[Steve-]

Hello All:

I hated to read of the mishaps some have experienced of late. I have been there. After my hive had a melt down two years ago I thought about what I had done and came to the decision I had just made my hive too deep. After several days of 100 pluse temps it is hard for comb to take the stress of the honey contained inside the comb. I do agree the newer the comb the more quickly failure will take place in high temps. In year two I made some depth adjustments and did not experience comb failure in 2002. But I will venture to say my hive was still too deep. Even after I made adjustments the comb was still 17" deep. I did worry but was lucky I did not lose any comb. When I had comb failure I believe my bees were saved by the fact I had vent holes cut in the top bars similar to Mr. Satterfields. I have come to believe that a more shallow hive, in addition to vent holes, is the answer or a hive that does not allow as much volume per comb. I am still very interested in the sloped sides of many of your designs as mine have been straight sided to this point in time and may now remain so. I moved my oldest colony to a smaller hive this year containing only 15 top bars at a depth of aproximately 12". I have been pleased with the production of this hive since the move. I have observed that the queen only lays to bar 9 1/2 - the 1/2 comes from the front side of top bar number 10. The top bars that make up the brood area are a solid mix of brood, pollen, and honey. I harvested four of the remaining bars and collected 36 pluse pounds of honey six weeks ago. I just checked and those bars are ready to be harvested again. So I have been pleased with my move to the smaller hive. I know some of you have real winters as compared to me so my smaller hive would not do you well. Also I can harvest honey that you need to leave on your hive for winter feeding. As some of you may remeber reading awhile back this is my third year with tbh's. My first hive was too deep and I believe too long. It can handle 35 top bars 1 3/8" wide and has a follower space of 3/4". I say too long because in three years my bees have only drawn comb on 22 of the 35 bars. I did reduce the floor depth in the hive but did not change its length. I have hoped that leaving the brood area intact would allow the queen to build a field force large enough to fill out all 35 bars but that is yet to happen.

As I have read about some of you correcting comb placement, I did that also when I first started but stopped in year two. I have not experienced the curved comb some have described but I had comb from two bars grow together and be extra wide. Now if I encounter comb I am not pleased with I cut it out. I did not want to do this at first but now I go ahead and let the bees deal with my comb removal. And I always cut upward first. Never cut across the seam and then cut up to meet your first cut. I always cut up at an angle and then across to meet the first cut that will correct what I am trying to remove and if for some reason I do not get it right with the first cut I will remove some more. I use two cutting tools 1. a short stiff putty knife and 2. a J shaped tool I designed. The stronger the metal used for your cutting tool the more control you have over the direction of the cut. I found that a hacksaw blade was of good thickness in making the cut but its length gave it play during the cut that made it hard to guide at times.

I like to look in my hive too much to not open it (even when it is hot). I enjoy this process of learning about the bees and what we can do with the hive. I enjoy this try and retry process - it keeps us thinking and as it has been said before - when "I think, therefore I am".

So in summary 1. Smaller hives - if you can; 2. Always cut up when making comb corrections; 3. Let the bees fix what you remove; 4. Have a thin but stiff cutting tool.

Happy Hiving,
Steve

[Scot Mc Pherson]

>>> Even after I made adjustments the comb was still 17" deep.

After adjustment? And Squared not sloped? My goodness, I am very suprised.

>>>>I know some of you have real winters as compared to me so my smaller hive would not do you well.

Actually the farther north / worse your winters are, smaller hives are more likely to survive and build up faster in the spring.

Excellent that you had such good luck.

[Michael Bush]

Mine was only a 9 5/8" deep box and I had a total failure. I'm going to try 6 5/8" I think. My previous top bar hive I put in holes in the top bars, mostly so I could super. I wonder if that's part of why it didn't have as many problems. It was 9 5/8" deep with sloped sides and holes (notches?) in the bars.

[airbalancer]

Hello all,
My copy of Bee Culture came in the mail today. So I kicked off my boots, poured some lemonade, and sat back to do some reading. I was reading a great article on top bar hives by Dr Sanford, when sure enough he mentioned my website. I have to tell you, I got a kick out of that. So if your out there doc, it was a great article and you've made my day.
Cheers
Mike

[BWrangler]

Hi Mike and Barry,

I saw the article in Bee Culture. You both have some great ideas and some great tbhs.

Congrats
Dennis

[Steve-]

Scot,

The other night I referred to an adjustment in my hive. I created a screened bottom and inserted it to reduce the depth in my hive. I also should have said my hives are straight sided instead of squared.

My comment about the size of my hive and real winters up north relate to the amount of honey and pollen stores. I do not believe my small tbh would hold enough stores for a cluster to make it through a good long winter. I know many folks already feed in late winter but feeding in winter would be difficult with my tbh.

Happy Hiving
Steve

[BWrangler]

Hi Everyone,

I have added some additional sections to my tbh webpage. They include:

Hot Weather Management
Honey Production
Honey Harvest

They are at the bottom of
www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/mana.htm (http://www.geocities.com/usbwrangler/mana.htm)


Regards
Dennis

[Steve-]

BWrangler

Good Job on the additions you made to your tbh page. I agree that tbh beekeepers are very innovative. It has been enlightening to see and read what fellow TBHers are doing.

Just a thought - those of us on this tbh discussion list could each take a chapter and get that TBH BeeKeepers Manual/Book knocked out. It could be an online resource for new folks picking up the TBH methodology. That might be a good project for us this winter. It is just a thought.

Happy Hiving
Steve

[Barry]

> Barry and I talked about what kind of entrance the tbh hives should have. Research indicated that a 1 1/4" hole was optimum. Barry put that on the end of his hive. How's it working for you Barry? <

Hi Dennis -

My TBH is doing real well. I realized from our phone conversation that our
TBH's are in very different settings. Yours sits out in the full sun and
mine is in the shade all the time. I have not noticed any negative effect to
having just the one 1-1/4" entrance hole on the hive. When the activity
really picks up and a large field force comes back all at the same time,
there is some congestion but the bees simply land on the side of the hive
and work it all out in time. I don't feel my bees took any longer to build
comb than yours did.

I tried to really get into the hive Monday and look at every comb, but I was
not successful. There are two frames I can get out (approx. frame 7 and 8)
with no problem as they drew it very straight. These were the first couple of
combs built when I started the hive. All the combs in front of and in back
of, have curved ends and they're attached to the adjacent top bar. It gets
worse the further away you get from these two combs. I decided not to try
and straighten things out just so I could look at the combs. I am going to
leave them to their own creation and see how they winter. Eventually I will
use the bees to start some other TBH designs and then I will pull the combs
apart and do some extensive measuring and studying of the combs.

It's interesting that they still refuse to draw the combs down to the bottom
of the hooped frames I made. My "frames" are about 20" deep and 20" wide.
I'm not sure why they stopped the combs 2/3rds down. If you figure up the
total comb area in my hive, it is very close to the same area Dennis finds
in his, yet his bees drew the comb to the bottom (14" deep?). I know for
sure that this hive requeened themselves as there quite a few opened queen
cells on some of the combs. I have a gut feeling that the one swarm I got
this year came from the TBH also. I'll try placing a standard super on top
of this hive next year and see if they will store honey in it. What will the
bees do next year, now that they have the combs built? Will they want to
store more honey? Will they have a greater tendency to swarm? Things to
watch for.

The hinged bottom (3" x the length of the hive) I
put on my TBH has 1/8" hardware cloth (screen) attached to the inside of the
hive so when the bottom is open it is still bee proof. I tried to open it
this week and found that the screen was totally covered with propolis and
glued to the hinged bottom board. I guess they didn't even like the small
amount of air coming in through the 1/16" gap around the bottom board. The
hive is totally sealed up except for the 1-1/4" entrance.

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited August 17, 2003).]

[airbalancer]

Hello all,
It was pretty hot here last night. I took this picture of them bearding the hive entrance. It looked like they were dripping out of the extra hole I put in.
Mike
http://home.comcast.net/~beekeeper23/tbhpics/beedrip.jpg

[BWrangler]

Hi Mike and Everyone,

Nice shot. That hive even looks good in the dark and especially good with bees on the front. That's about how my standard hives have looked at night since July. Is it abnormal for your area.

On another note, I pulled supers from my standard hives and extracted with my 2 frame hand extractor. What a chore compared to harvesting comb out of my tbh and letting it drain through a nylon screen and into a bucket.

I have been around extractors so long, I didn't think there could be an easier way.
But comparing the two methods side by side draining beats extracting on a small scale for me. I don't think I could suggest a small extractor for any hobbyist like myself.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking the tbh list was going to pass the permacomb guys. But maybe not. :< )

[txbeeguy]

...Just back to the list after a three week trip to Siberia; good to bee back in the land of hot showers and iced tea!
--
Thought about checking in on my TBH but after reading the horror stories of comb breaking, I've decided to wait until the temps cool a bit (high today around 105 here in my Dallas backyard). Last time I checked it (about a month ago), the bees had drawn out what can only be described as a large triangle-shaped honeycomb (due to the 22-deg slope of my hive's side walls). The comb is rather deep but seems to support the weight okay - I guess this is because the further away from the connection point at the top bar, the comb gets narrower and narrower (so the suspended weight becomes less and less). I'm planning on measuring the depth of the comb (from the top bar) the next time I go into the hive; but I'd bet to the bottom point of the triangle, it's at least 20 inches. A few earlier pictures of the comb can be seen at: http://profiles.yahoo.com/txbeeguy

[airbalancer]

Hello txbeeguy,
Those are some great pics of your TBH, and some large comb. I would be interested to know the weight of a full honey comb that size, if you were so inclined. Some quick math shows your combs are 50% larger than a standard hive showing just how strong beeswax is.
Mike

[BWrangler]

Hi TxBeeGuy,

Looked in your briefcase. Nice! I know you're having fun.

Regards
Dennis

[txbeeguy]

Yep...we're havin' fun now! The TBH has been an interesting little "experiment". This was obviously my first year with it. From everything I can see and experience, I think sloped walls on a TBH is absolutely essential. Before I built mine, I had read on some English website, that particuliar author didn't seem to think there was any difference with the bees attaching burr/brace comb between a straight (i.e., verticle) walled TBH and a sloped one. From my own personal experience, I can now say my bees haven't attached ANY comb to the sloped side walls and as can be seen, the combs are fairly large. Others with verticle walled TBH have reported varying problems along this line. Also, the technique I've used for my 'starter strips' has worked out nicely (I covered this in an earlier posting). Here in another month or two, I'll place my "bottom board" back into the TBH in preparation for winter (they've had a screened bottom, all summer long) - this should be about a one minute procedure; again, this is visible in some of my photos. I'm thinking I might make another TBH this winter and so far, I don't think I'll change a single thing.
The bees have available to them a total of 30 top bars from which to draw out comb. My bees so far in this first year, have drawn out only about 15 (however, they are rather large combs). Next Spring, I will probably reposition the top bars in the back of the hive more towards the front to encourage them to draw out these bars. For this Winter, I will put the 'follower board' behind comb #15 to effectively make their hive space smaller. Probably the year after that, I will begin to put regular medium depth honey supers on, using the black plastic sheet techinque (also written about earlier).
Yes, I will try to weigh a fully drawn honey comb and calculate the area of the comb so this will have meaning to you.

[BWrangler]

Hi TxBeeGuy and Everyone,

>I will probably reposition the top bars in the back of the hive more towards the front to encourage them to draw out these bars.

I tried inserting empty top bars within the broodnest to get them to draw additional comb. It worked to a degree but the bees tended to draw some burr comb in the space between the combs until a significant amount of comb was built on the empty top bar.

I think moving the broodnest to the rear of the hive and giving the bees space will work better. That's also my plan for next year.

Regards
Dennis