large wild bees ?

[Black Creek]

my friend and i did some hiking in the mountains over the weekend. at the summit of one mountain there was a rocky out cropping. while looking out at the valley below, i noticed there were still rhododendrons and laurels in bloom, but there were some other flowering bush like trees with clusters of small white flowers. i could hear a hum to the air, so i climbed down a bit to investigate. there were lots of honey bees working those white flowers. i noticed a lot were loaded down with pollen, but they appeared to be gathering nectar from these particular flowers. but now i'm a bit confused. these bees are almost certainly wild or feral and they were pretty big. at least as big as my package bees, maybe slightly larger. and there colour was a bit more orangish than my italians. From what i've been reading online, wild/feral bees survive better because they are drawing natural size comb. and natural size comb is small cell. and small cell makes smaller bees. why were these bees so big? we were in a 7000+ acre 'scenic area', that's one step below 'wilderness area' classification in that the forest service roads are still available for use for most of the year. so i guess, someone could have brought in a hive or 2 and set them up somewhere. but, i dont think that was the case considering how far we were from any of the roads that i know of that are in there. most all of the property that borders this area is very rural and wooded(my father's land borders it). So my only guess is that it's a swarm from a managed hive from outside the national forest bounderies. How far will a swarm go from it's parent hive before settling? these bees were on a 4000+ ft mountain summit that was at least a mile and a half from the nearest forest service road and several miles(not sure exactly, maybe 4?) from the closest private land.

[cphilip]

Well... I have read here and other places that they will forage out from 2-4 miles. Depending on the source that you read. So I don't see why they would not swarm out to that sort of range as well. Just guessing but I don't see it unreasonable to find them establishing 4 miles away.

One of the other members posted a link to an interesting paper on the communication process that goes on in chosing a new location. Seems from that its a recruitment process of scouts to locate and come back and convince enough of the other bees that the location they founds is preferable to what other scouts have found. And its a numbers game. No telling what scouts come back from and with and if its in a favorable direction for returning (say downwind that day or so) then more scouts may find it and in turn more scouts relate that location as favorable, convincing the swarm to go to that direction. Seems odd they would go that far.... but who am I to predict the randomness of nature.

Not certain I am anywhere close. Sounds like a cool find.

[Michael Bush]

Brother Adam said the smaller English bees used to forage at least five miles because that's how far it was to the heather around there and the Italains wouldn't go that far. I don't know for sure how far a swarm will travel, but I would guess at least as far as the bees would forage.

[Black Creek]

after posting my original message, i got to reading some other threads here. now i'm even more confused about bee size :confused: i read where some people have actual smaller bees from small cell. ''tiny bees''. and other people mentioning that there's virtually no difference in the mature bee's size in SC or large cell combs since they still have different size bees based on the time of year. so maybe this question is best posed to Michael Bush? you seem to be one of the SC gurus on here smile.gif are your bees smaller in general? can survivor/feral bees be identified based on their size?

[Kieck]

I'm not a small-cell guru, but I'd like to mention a couple things that come to mind after reading this thread.

1) SC bees are smaller than "commercial-size" bees. If they weren't, I'd expect them to build cells just as large as the standard foundation sold by most beekeeping supply places. I've been led to believe that the reason for using larger cell sizes in the first place was to promote larger bees, which beekeepers at one time preferred.

2) After thinking about it, I would actually expect honey bees in cold climates (such as very, very high in the mountains, perhaps?) to be larger than their counterparts in warmer climates. That trend tends to hold across most animals; members of a species living in colder climates are larger than members of that same species living in warmer climates. That's why the average body size of white-tailed deer, for instance, is much larger in the Dakotas than the average body size of white-tailed deer in Texas. The larger body size provides an advantage to surviving cold winters. The same might be true for honey bees.

I've probably opened up the proverbial hornets' nest, especially with the latter comments, but such a trend might be worth exploring. Are bees at high elevations, or bees in northern climates, larger on average than bees in warmer climates?

[cphilip]

There is some truth to the result but it leaves out some other factors. When it comes to the Deer analogy. Minerals in the soil, overpopulation etc. Other environmental effects leading to deer size interplay that have not that much to do with climate... but then again have to do with environment. But... yea.. its all inter related I guess. Fact is that yes, the southern Species of whitetail is smaller. However large localy grown examples exist. Mostly feeding on farm crops that recieve ample lime and fertilized fields for them to eat on. So its not all cold vs hot.

[ June 20, 2006, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: cphilip ]

[Keith Benson]

"The larger body size provides an advantage to surviving cold winters. The same might be true for honey bees."

Except that winter survival in honeybees is a function of colony cluster size and not individual bee size. There is a lot of discussion of how a change in honeybee size affects said animals thermal properties and thus performance. I have yet to see anyone present any credible data. Remember, in many instances bees act as individuals, in others it makes more sense to consider the colony as the individual. To suggest that because northern deer (or any homeotherm) are larger, with a lower surface area to volume ratio, and thus reduced heat loss etc than southern deer, that the same is true for bees is not an apples to apples comparison. More like and apples to kelp. It might hold true, but then it very well may not. If you are interested in the thermal properties of insects check out:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674016394/sr=8-1/qid=1150830735/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-6338438-4959104?%5Fencoding=UTF8

And

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674883411/ref=pd_sim_b_4/104-6338438-4959104?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

But this sort of thing is true of many of the claims made by the more hard line small cell proponants, including increased aerodynamic efficiency, increased muscle fiber densities in the thorax, foraging on different floral sources and thus having different nutrition available to them, drones flying faster and thus having better access to queens, more efficient division of labor etc. Even the notion that the bees are smaller seems to be a matter of contention within the small cell community.

Do small cell bees tolerate varroa better? Probably, at least there is considerable anecdotal evidence to that effect. The rest of the claims? Let’s just say they are interesting and yet unproven.

Keith "data, we need data" Benson

[Kieck]

Sure, sure, I know. But let's just say that it's not winter survival, but foraging at lower temperatures. Let's say that larger honey bees are more effective at foraging in low temperatures than small honey bees because the larger honey bees retain heat from the hive longer than the smaller honey bees. That retained heat could let them get out and back before the flight muscles become too cold to power flight.

Again, I'm not saying that it does work that way, but that it COULD work that way.

If there's no advantage to size, why do bumblebees forage at much lower temperatures than honey bees?

[cphilip]

No... I agree... some part of it is applicable.

[Michael Bush]

>Are bees at high elevations, or bees in northern climates, larger on average than bees in warmer climates?

Yes. As you go up in latitude and as you go up in altitude.

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part8.htm
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/part6.htm

[Kieck]

Hmmmm. . . thanks for the information, Michael! I'd assumed as much, but didn't have anything other than a gut feeling to back it up.

Now, would 4000 feet be high enough that the bees there might be larger? I don't know, but I wonder if it wouldn't.

[Keith Benson]

"Let's say that larger honey bees are more effective at foraging in low temperatures than small honey bees because the larger honey bees retain heat from the hive longer than the smaller honey bees."

"If there's no advantage to size, why do bumblebees forage at much lower temperatures than honey bees?"

A) Bumbles are a different organism
b) They are generally much fuzzier
c) Actually it is more important for bumbles to shed the heat generated by flying - and their larger size makes it harder to do this. They have several specialized mechanisms to accomplish this - and if they fail they seize up. Read the bumble bee economics book I posted - really neat stuff.

IS there an advantage to being larger in colder weather? Maybe, but the question is, has anyone shown this? Also, and I will try to recall where I read this, but the idea that bees get larger as you go toward the poles or up a mountain is not universal. After all, the worlds largest honeybee is tropical smile.gif

Keith

[ June 21, 2006, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[Kieck]

Um, sure. Bumble bees are different organisms, and I really shouldn't have thrown them in.

But look at it this way: the general rule is that within a species, individuals living in colder areas tend to be larger. Sure, it's not universal, and may not work entirely among insects, but let's look at the premise of the rule. The world's largest honeybee IS tropical, but it's also a different species.

[Michael Bush]

Dee has posted in the past the relationship of altitude and latitude, but I would expect it to be the same as the effect on the climate which is generally available.

[cphilip]

Off topic a tad but .... this is a facinating discussion I must say.

[Keith Benson]

"But look at it this way: the general rule is that within a species, individuals living in colder areas tend to be larger"

Well, not entirely - this is Bergmann's rule and generally applied to homeotherms. Of course there are those who can cite numerous exceptions to this rule, and can cite examples in the non-endothermic world. In other words, don't hang your hat on this rule. If you were to apply this to honeybees, the best way to do so is when they are at least behaving somewhat endothermically, i.e. as a cluster, in which case it would not be the individual bee size that matters, but the size of the winter cluster. As people who run NWC next to Italians will tell you, cluster size is not the only determinant of winter survival

What I find interesting is that people talking about SC bees want to extrapolate Bergmann’s rule to bees, but they forget about Gloger's rule:

From wikkipedia: Gloger's Rule is a zoological rule which states that within a species of endotherms, more heavily pigmented forms tend to be found near the equator and lighter forms away from the equator. It was named after the zoologist Constantin Wilhelm Lambert Gloger.

Now IIRC there is also the notion amongst the small cell set that yellow bees are tropical/low lying areas and dark bees are from more northerly/elevated climes.

Personally I don't think the bees read any books on the matter, and the assumptions being made are a smidgeon out there. If bees are larger at altitude or as one gets away from the equator, it may be a thermal issue, but it just as easily may not be.

Perhaps for a tropical absconding prone bee like scuts it pays to have smaller cells and a slightly shorter generation time with which to get a colony going.

The above is just as valid a theory, given that it is not based on any data, like many of the small cell assertions of why it [sc] "works".

Keith

[ June 21, 2006, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[naturebee]

--other people mentioning that there's virtually no difference in the mature bee's size in SC or large cell combs since they still have different size bees based on the time of year.

Small cell range is from about 9.7mm to about 5.1mm in cell size. Although bee sizes may vary in the small cell ranges, there is a noticable difference between small cell bees and large cell bees of above 5.1 mm

[naturebee]

--but now i'm a bit confused. these bees are almost certainly wild or feral and they were pretty big

According to a study by HEPBURN, OGHIAKHE and RADLOFF, mountain bees are larger than that found in lower elavations.

[naturebee]

--IS there an advantage to being larger in colder weather? Maybe, but the question is, has anyone shown this?

Good questions,
All I can add is that it has been shown that smaller body size withen the same species lives longer than same species larger sized bodies. This of course would be benificial to the survival of wintering honeybees.

[naturebee]

--other people mentioning that there's virtually no difference in the mature bee's size in SC or large cell combs

I have noticed something when I set up my honey stand OB hive at farmers markets. Some beekeepers are oblivious to the smaller size and do not notice, while others pick up on it right away and comment on how small the bees are. So it all depends on the observational skills of the person you are conversing with.

---SC gurus on here,
are your bees smaller in general? can survivor/feral bees be identified based on their size?

My bees are small cell, ferals, and noticeably smaller. Other characteristics are common in smaller ferals also. When I find ferals that are smaller in body size, my observations are that it usually will be accompanied by uniform looking workers (similar in size and markings). Brood viability will usually be at near 100% and the queen will have similar markings to others I have found in the past. After working with small cell bees and ferals for so long, it becomes easy to distinguish the smaller bees from the larger ‘possibly domestic models’ right off when I see them foraging.

[naturebee]

--From wikkipedia: Gloger's Rule is a zoological rule which states that within a species of endotherms, more heavily pigmented forms tend to be found near the equator and lighter forms away from the equator. It was named after the zoologist Constantin Wilhelm Lambert Gloger.

Interesting,
Keith, would this rule apply to animals that are dependant on solar heating such as cold blooded animals?,,, that have evolved darker colors in the northern climates because it gave them a competitive advantage over lighter colored competitors?

Perhaps, looking at honeybee colonies that are much more active in the sun than others that are placed in the shade, one could assume that they are greatly benefited by solar heat and a darker bee would absorb more solar heat sooner which would permit earlier foraging and in cooler weather than that of the lighter colored bees, giving them a competitive advantage.

[cphilip]

Following that logic would not darker species have an advantage in colder climates due to thier advantage of solar heat gain? And in fact its the opposite in a lot of respects. As the effect of camoflage for survival gets into the mix. The first rule of rules is there are no rules. Normaly known as the Barney Fife "Life at the Rock" rule

[naturebee]

--Following that logic would not darker species have an advantage in colder climates due to thier advantage of solar heat gain?

Sure it does, smile.gif
heres jsut one abstract I ran across:


“…. Small bees reached lower temperature excesses (Texc) and warmed up and lost heat much more rapidly than larger bees. In addition to body size, body coloration had a clear effect on thermal parameters.”

Although this states smaller bees loose heat quicker than larger bees, it would be off set by fact that wintering bees usually fly during sunny weather permitting more rapid heat absorption in the darker bees.

“…Light-coloured bees warmed up less rapidly and had lower Texc than dark bees.

“….This also suggests that, in general, light bees have an advantage over black bees in hot open lowland habitats, whereas black bees might have an advantage in wet habitats and mountains. The origin, occurrence and function of flavinism (yellow integument colouring) are discussed.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12838404&dopt=Abstract

[ June 21, 2006, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[cphilip]

No... thats the opposite.... Of Glogers rule. I think I did not make it clear what I was refering too.

Sort of as examples Polar Bears vs Black Bears. Opposite. Dealing with camoflage and survival is what I was interjecting.

[Keith Benson]

"
According to a study by HEPBURN, OGHIAKHE and RADLOFF, mountain bees are larger than that found in lower elavations."

I don't ahve said study - is this all montaqin bees, or just one or two populations?

Keith

[Keith Benson]

"Keith, would this rule apply to animals that are dependant on solar heating such as cold blooded animals?,,, that have evolved darker colors in the northern climates because it gave them a competitive advantage over lighter colored competitors? "

Perhaps, but this is an over simplification as the surface properties of a critter also play into its heat gain and loss. Shiny surfaces pick up radiant heat and radiate it better than matte surfaces.

I know of a great many tropical ectotherms that are very very dark. In fact we have some monitors at the zoo that love to bask in the South Carolina sun - for hours and they are almost entirely jet black.

Ectotherms also deploy a number of behaviorally mechanisms to facilitate maintaining their desired temps. They can also pull cool tricks like sending blood to preferred areas to facilitate heat pick up or reduce heat loss.

So, in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that.

Keith "animals are not black boxes" Benson

[ June 21, 2006, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[Michael Bush]

>>--other people mentioning that there's virtually no difference in the mature bee's size in SC or large cell combs
>I have noticed something when I set up my honey stand OB hive at farmers markets. Some beekeepers are oblivious to the smaller size and do not notice, while others pick up on it right away and comment on how small the bees are. So it all depends on the observational skills of the person you are conversing with.

My son, who has no interest in bees, when he went to the State Fair and saw the bees in the observation hive came home and commented how huge they were compared to our bees. And he's not a beekeeper and if you had asked him if I had small bees before that would probably have said he had no idea.

>---SC gurus on here,
are your bees smaller in general?

The difference is more dramatic when they first emerge. They are tiny then, but they are still noticablly smaller when older.

> can survivor/feral bees be identified based on their size?

IMO, yes.

>After working with small cell bees and ferals for so long, it becomes easy to distinguish the smaller bees from the larger ‘possibly domestic models’ right off when I see them foraging.

I agree.

[naturebee]

Keith,

6 different kinds of unralated mountain bees.

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2000/02/m0207.pdf?access=ok

[naturebee]

--So, in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that.

In the quote from the study below, they seem to be suggesting that it is in fact ‘just that simple’ as color.

From looking at the study and my experience with bee breeding, my opinion is that it is not necessary that the competitors be ‘obliterated’ by genetic superiority for selection to take place. All that seems to be needed (as the study suggests) is an advantage over the competition no mater how slight the advantage may be.

“….This also suggests that, in general, light bees have an advantage over black bees in hot open lowland habitats, whereas black bees might have an advantage in wet habitats and mountains. The origin, occurrence and function of flavinism (yellow integument colouring) are discussed.”

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12838404&dopt=Abstract

[ June 22, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[D. Murrell]

Hi Guys,

You can see my bee size measurements at:

www.bwrangler.com/bee/ (http://bwrangler.farvista.net/qmar.htm)ssiz.htm (http://bwrangler.farvista.net/ssiz.htm)

Regards
Dennis
Thinking the relationships of size, season, cell size, race and behavior are a bit more complicated than generally thought.

[ December 31, 2006, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ]

[Keith Benson]

"In the quote from the study below, they seem to be suggesting that it is in fact ‘just that simple’ as color. "

No they are not:

"However, body temperatures of foraging bees of colour morphs were not very different. This is probably due to behavioural adaptations (e.g. foraging strategies) or differences in convective and evaporative heat loss or the production of metabolic heat during flight, that all mask the effect of body colour"

In other words: "in short, it is just not that simple. Color may play a role, but there is much more to it than that."

Keith "and that is just from the abstract" Benson

[Keith Benson]

"Thinking the relationships of size, season, cell size, race and behavior are a bit more complicated than generally thought."

Amen

[naturebee]

--know of a great many tropical ectotherms that are very very dark. In fact we have some monitors at the zoo that love to bask in the South Carolina sun - for hours and they are almost entirely jet black.

darker "cold-blooded" animals like lizards and insects can absorb heat more quickly than lighter-colored animals and therefore reach their activity temperature more quickly, I see no reason why it wouldn’t’ apply to southern regions also, but dark color would be of great importance in the cooler climates I would imagine.

[ June 23, 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[naturebee]

--"However, body temperatures of foraging bees of colour morphs were not very different...."

But that statement does no negate what I am saying. Sure they would not be that different, because bees regulate their body temperature, so any color bee might have similar body temps. The point I have made is that the darker body allows them to heat up quicker so that foraging and other activities can start sooner and in cooler weather, giving darker bees an advantage in cooler climates.

[ June 23, 2006, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[Keith Benson]

Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

It is just not as simple as darker for the north, lighter for the south. In fact, in our own species quite the opposite it true. Pigment also plays an important role in protecting organisms from some of our suns more harmful effects.

You have also missed out on slelective partitioning of blood flow, how surface texture affects heat flux etc.

As I said before, it is not so simple.

Keith

[Keith Benson]

"The point I have made is that the darker body allows them to heat up quicker so that foraging and other activities can start sooner and in cooler weather, giving darker bees an advantage in cooler climates."

I have watched my gals in the AM. Seems to me that they are not sunning themselves to get up to temp on the front porch. If the hive gets morning sun and the hive heats up, i.e. the mass of bees and their environs heats up, they get an earlier start.

I think metabolic heat is far, far, far more important to individual bees.

Question: If it is important for southern warm climate bees to be light, why would someone in say, AZ select darker bees?

Keith

[ June 23, 2006, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[Michael Bush]

>If it is important for southern warm climate bees to be light, why would someone in say, AZ select darker bees?

Altitude.

[Keith Benson]

still mighty hot. . . .

[Michael Bush]

In the moutnains it's still mighty cold at night. The selection process is not done by the Lusby's. That's what the wild bees look like there.

[Keith Benson]

Actually I was just picking a hot spot not singling out the Lusby's.

But since you brought them up - are you saying she doesn't select for darker bees?

Keith

[naturebee]

--Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

Good point, but polar bears and other examples do not apply in this case as this camaflouge related color, and do not rely on solar heat absorbtion.


In insects, the color, body shape, and the timing of the activities of these organisms all contribute to thermoregulation.

[naturebee]

--still mighty hot. . . .

Dee has stated that the her bees often quit foraging during the hottest part of mid day.

[Keith Benson]

There is more to polar bear color and hair structure than meets the eye.

"In insects, the color, body shape, and the timing of the activities of these organisms all contribute to thermoregulation."

Thanks for making my point - it is not simply color.

Keith

[naturebee]

I agree that its more than just color, that's my point also!

But it is significant that bee color is mentioned in the quotes from the study. They state right off that “body coloration had a clear effect on thermal parameters.”

This is a good discussion tactic and promotes good discussion. You could say that "it’s more than just ____“ to any topic ever discussed. But to say that "it is not simply color" in no way lessens to significant role that body color seems to play as suggested in the citation.

[naturebee]

--Joe - snowshoe rabbits.

This helps to prove my point. smile.gif
Showshoe hares turn white in the winter, BUT the hairs remain dark at base and probably aid in heat absorption.

--There is more to polar bear color and hair structure than meets the eye.

Which also helps to prove my point. smile.gif
Beneath the white fur, the Polar Bear's skin is black, which helps it absorb and hold heat.

If I can add, some say that the hollow hairs are kinda like fiber optics and transfer sunlight directly to the dark skin where it is absorbed, but I'm not sure this is not a myth.

[ June 25, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[cphilip]

no... my understanding of the hairs is to create a dead air space insulation. So it would not transfer heat nor cold to the inner surface. Its purpose would be to keep the inner body heat from being lost to exhange with outside air.

[naturebee]

--my understanding of the hairs is to create a dead air space insulation. So it would not transfer heat nor cold to the inner surface.

Hi,
There is some heat absorbtion from the sun according to these Zoo sites:

---->
http://www.alaskazoo.org/willowcrest/polarbearhome.htm

"Many people do not realize that polar bears have black skin. This is an adaptation that allows maximum warming of the skin when exposed to sunlight."


---->
The black skin is also for heat absorbtion as refrenced by the Fresno Chaffee Zoo.

http://www.fresnochaffeezoo.com/animals/polarBear.html

"The polar bear's skin is black to absorb heat, and its long guard hairs are hollow to act as an insulator and for buoyancy."

[Dick Allen]

We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs

Here's one that's just the opposite:

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1390.html

Polar bears reside ABOVE the Arctic circle. During the coldest months of the year the sun never appears above the horizon. FWIW.

[Michael Bush]

>But since you brought them up - are you saying she doesn't select for darker bees?

She gets swarms all the time from town. The golf courses bring them to her. They look just like her bees. About half are black and the other have are tiger striped. About half to 3/4 of the workers are black. I do not think color is a criteria she's using for breeding. Last I heard she's was not breeding queens at all, just doing splits and letting the bees raise their own queens. She used to raise a lot of queens, but recently they've been focused on retooling and rebuilding.

The point is that is the color of bees that live their on their own.

[Keith Benson]

"I do not think color is a criteria she's using for breeding"

I remember otherwise. She may select them because she feels that they are molst approrpiate for her local, but I racll her discussing selecting them when she was raising queens in her incubator and hatching the virgins out in little glass jars.

Keith

[ June 25, 2006, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[naturebee]

--We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs

I would say “We can always find some credible URL on the internet that supports the facts.”

If you look carefully, you will see that I took the time to find creditable impeccable sources to back up my statements, they are there if you spend time to look for them.

I would think that a zoo in Fresno Chaffee California,
And a zoo in Alaska would have experts that know a bit about polar bears. smile.gif

Wait, I'll ask Keith.
Keith, them guys caring after the animals at the zoo's, do they know anything about animals? smile.gif

[naturebee]

sorry, double post.

[ June 25, 2006, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]

[Keith Benson]

They do - but at the same token, no one has, or is likely to spend the funds necessary to end the debate with actual data. There are those who are comfortable with the exaplinations you suggested and posted, and others who are not.

Guess what it takes to feild a team to anesthetize and instrument polar bears? All to say that on a sunny day they net 0.001% more heat from the weak polar sunlight? Ain't gonna happen unless it piggy backs on something else, or has some other application.

So there will be opinions, and they will vary. Thing is - it is all speculation until someone makes some measurements.

I just wish people would be a little more up front with what are established verifiable factoids, and what are merely a plausible explainations.

Keith

[ June 25, 2006, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]

[naturebee]

Keith:
--All to say that on a sunny day they net 0.001% more heat from the weak polar sunlight?

Dick:
--We can always find some URL on the internet that fits our own personal beliefs
“Polar bears reside ABOVE the Arctic circle. During the coldest months of the year the sun never appears above the horizon. FWIW. “


Hello,

I took you advice Dick and found a site that shows polar bears do not reside above the artic circle year round, and are also found in nice sunny locations where the sunlight is warmer, and heat absorption greater. smile.gif

http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/arctic-map/

[Keith Benson]

Lets say you have a 500 kg polar bear. It's base metabolic rate, i.e. just the calories it burns sitting there and being a bear is on the order of 7400 Kcals, not cals Kcals. And that is a minimum. Drop the temps and it goes up, move, it goes up, eat, breed, raise young etc. that figure goes up 3-5 times that number in fact. Polar bears get the vast vast vast majority of their heat from metabolism (they eat seals - very energy rich) and they hang onto it by being exceptionally well insulated. They are not solar collectors. Even if the bear was jet black, the heat flux into his body from the sun at those latitudes would likely be miniscule in comparison.

I say likely because I have no data, sort of like this discussion having no real scientific merit, or anything to do with honeybees or the price of chloramphenicol in china.

Keith

[naturebee]

--Even if the bear was jet black, the heat flux into his body from the sun at those latitudes would likely be miniscule in comparison.

Hello,
So then you agree that in latitudes where the sun is brighter, there is an influx of heat into the honeybees bodies? Naturally then, darker colors as in dark bees would absorb more heat than lighter bees. smile.gif

Back to the polar bears,,,
I do state in my previous posts that:

"The polar bear's skin is black to absorb heat, and its long guard hairs are hollow to act as an insulator and for buoyancy."

‘skin is black to absorb heat’. I don’t say for one moment that sunlight is the sole source of this heat asorbtion.