Observations regarding Large Cell Regression and Small Cell Packages:

[dcwilliams]

Well,

This year I started 3 small cell hives from Buckeye Bee on 4.9 wax foundation, in standard hive bodies. The bees have been drawing out the foundation in a very uniform manner. Upon observing the bees, there are various sizes of bee, but on average the bees do appear to be smaller than my large cell hives, with some appearing significantly smaller. One of y large cell hives that I have is a DE hive, and I do not have any additional supers for it, so it threw 2 swarms a day apart. I captured both swarms, and hived them on 4.9 wax small cell as well. The bees have drawn out 4 or 5 frames, and they are drawing it out in a myriad of shapes and sizes. In some places they skip a cell and draw the surrounding cells almost over it, leaving only a tiny hole for the covered cell. In others they draw 2 cells as one in an odd shape - not a drone cell necessarily, just a misdrawn cell. Its very odd how hard it is for these bees to draw the smaller foundation, when the small cell packages draw it out perfectly. Just thought I would let everyone know my observations, and see if anyone had any thoughts. As is stands now, I think I will steal a few frames from the small cell package hives and insert them in the center of the swarm hives I am regressing, and cull the misdrawn frames.

Chris Williams

[wayacoyote]

Chris,
That sounds like a good plan: inserting some drawn small-cell frames from the other hive. Rather than continue to waste 4.9mm foundation on bees that won't draw it correctly, let them have the other comb, sounds like a plan. Also, you might try a few frames of foundationless or just 4.9 mm starter strips. Perhaps they'll draw this down to 5.1mm anyway, and save the whole sheets of 4.9 until after their first generation (one-step regressed) are ready to draw comb. They should be better able to draw the smaller stuff.

Good luck,
Waya

[D. Murrell]

Hi DC,

Your observations concerning small cell aren't unique. It was these same kind of observations that resulted in my tbh experiments with regressed bees, small cell bees and large cell bees placed on natural comb, small cell and large cell comb. I've measured and quantified the different types of comb under these various combinations.

When given the chance, bees all build the same kind of broodnest structure, with the same kind of cell size distribution. Large cell bees build small cell size comb. And small cell, even Lusbees, bees build large cell size comb. It's the broodnest structure that's important. And a natural broodnest has a range of cell sizes.

I know small cell works. Bees are healthier on a broodnest with clean wax and smaller cells. But I've reached some other conclusions about the why's. I've concluded that there is no such a thing as a large or small cell bee. That there isn't such a thing as cell size memory. And that comb building, including cell size is genetically determined and the genetics aren't altered by the size of cell a bee is raised on.

Small cell works better than large cell because it's a better fit during a couple of critical times during the year. But just as small cell comb is important, so is large cell comb. Small cell queens actually prefer to lay eggs in it during mid-summer, even when small cell comb space is available.

I'd refer you to the small cell section of my website, but it's under renovation right now. When it's up and running in about two weeks, I'll post a note here on beesource.

Regards
Dennis

[Michael Bush]

Chris said:
>This year I started 3 small cell hives from Buckeye Bee on 4.9 wax foundation, in standard hive bodies. The bees have been drawing out the foundation in a very uniform manner.

>One of y large cell hives that I have is a DE hive, and I do not have any additional supers for it, so it threw 2 swarms a day apart. I captured both swarms, and hived them on 4.9 wax small cell as well. The bees have drawn out 4 or 5 frames, and they are drawing it out in a myriad of shapes and sizes. In some places they skip a cell and draw the surrounding cells almost over it, leaving only a tiny hole for the covered cell. In others they draw 2 cells as one in an odd shape - not a drone cell necessarily, just a misdrawn cell. Its very odd how hard it is for these bees to draw the smaller foundation, when the small cell packages draw it out perfectly.

Dennis said:
>Your observations concerning small cell aren't unique. It was these same kind of observations that resulted in my tbh experiments with regressed bees, small cell bees and large cell bees placed on natural comb, small cell and large cell comb.

>When given the chance, bees all build the same kind of broodnest structure, with the same kind of cell size distribution. Large cell bees build small cell size comb. And small cell, even Lusbees, bees build large cell size comb. It's the broodnest structure that's important. And a natural broodnest has a range of cell sizes.

These two observations, Chris's and Dennis's are not the same. Mine have been like Chris's. The small cell bees seem to be more willing to draw consistently small comb and the large cell bees, although sometimes the large cell bees will draw some fairly small cells, they will not draw them as consistently and seem to be confused as to what they really want to build. Since the do SOMETIMES build some smaller cells, it shows they CAN. But whether it is "memory" or just the size of the bee, the large cell bees do not seem to be as willing to do it as consistently nor as nicely.

[dcwilliams]

Michael,

You are correct. My observations are unlike the observations of Dennis. The bees that were small cell packages have no problems drawing the small cell. In fact they are extremely uniform, and the queens are laying from one side of the frame to the other. There are no misdrawn cells, very few drone cells, and overall the frames are extremely uniform. The LC bees drawing the SC foundation is a different story. They are confused with it. I will try to post some photos after my next inspection. I am very please with the small cell packages though. If you can guage regression by how well they draw out 4.9 foundation, then Kens packages are great, and will no doubt save me lots of wasted wax and time in my regression steps.

Chris Williams
Louisa VA

[Darrel Wright]

I haven't used sc foundation so I can't comment on that, but I would reaffirm that in my foundationless experience, "large cell bees" definitely draw small cells as well. There simply isn't a single size when you let them do their own thing. Whether trying to force them all to a smaller size is helped by doing it for multiple generations or not, I don't know. But it seems like you guys who have tried it seem to think so.

[D. Murrell]

Hi Guys,

Opps, I did misread DC's post. Sorry!

Bees on foundation of any size seem to have more problems drawing out comb than when left to themselves. It's a common observation with tbhers. And small cell foundation based comb is even more difficult to get drawn out than the larger cell stuff.

It's not only my observation, but much of the available literature on small cell atests to that fact, as comb drawing is restricted to the early spring or late fall, restricted to the broodnest or to colony size(nucs). That's alot of restrictions for something that's so natural :>)

I've been able to get just about any bee size colony to draw out about 6 frames of small cell comb. Some will make up to 8 or 9. But after that, the bees will rework small cell foundation and draw out the larger stuff. If plastic small cell foundation is used, they will start on the plastic and they pull away from it, to draw out natural comb between the plastic sheets. Some will even prefer to draw out natural comb between the plastic sheets.

What do you guys see? Do your bees freely draw out small cell foundation beyond the 6 or 8 frames?

Regards
Dennis


Regards
Dennis