4.9 starter strips, wire?,

[djstory]

I would like to start 4 Carni packages and a couple splits on 4.9 starter strips. I am also planning on using starter strips upstairs in the honey supers.

Should I use 4.9 strips upstairs too, or does the size of the cells for honey really matter? Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

This is probably a dumb question, but could I move the comb from the first draw upstairs for the bees to store honey in instead of just culling it?

Thanks for your help.

[Michael Bush]

>I would like to start 4 Carni packages and a couple splits on 4.9 starter strips. I am also planning on using starter strips upstairs in the honey supers.

>Should I use 4.9 strips upstairs too, or does the size of the cells for honey really matter?

Might as well. The bees will cheat and build whatever they want anyway. But since I run an unlimited brood nest and no chemicals, I don't have any distinction between honey and brood boxes.

>Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

I don't. I guess you can if you like. Some have and it seems to work ok. You might consider wiring vertically instead of horizontally so the bees follow the wire down instead of encountering it midway.

>This is probably a dumb question, but could I move the comb from the first draw upstairs for the bees to store honey in instead of just culling it?

If you have all the same size boxes, sure. But it's a nice start for another package or split to have some partially regressed combs. Fully regressed is nicer, but anything is a good start.

[djstory]

OK, I started my packages with a combination of starter strips, foundationless frames and SC wax. My problem with the wax foundation is that without wiring it, I couldn't keep the darn stuff from collapsing and folding over. I melted old comb to get some wax and then spooned it into the slot to hold the wax in. That worked fine on the starter strips, but it would not hold the full sheets (mediums) in place. So as a last resort I put in one frame of fully drawn comb in the center of the hive. I had no SC comb so I was forced to put my LC comb in.

Will the LC comb mixed with starter strips and foundationless confuse the bees? Or will they just adjust? I plan on pulling the LC comb as soon as they have other frames drawn and brood in it.

Thanks for the help.

[Michael Bush]

>OK, I started my packages with a combination of starter strips, foundationless frames and SC wax. My problem with the wax foundation is that without wiring it, I couldn't keep the darn stuff from collapsing and folding over. I melted old comb to get some wax and then spooned it into the slot to hold the wax in. That worked fine on the starter strips, but it would not hold the full sheets (mediums) in place.

The molten wax should work if you get a bead down both sides and down in the groove. The cleat also usually works if it's up tight enough on the foundation. Embedded wire is helpfu too if you run some horizontally and embed it it will help support the foundation.

>Will the LC comb mixed with starter strips and foundationless confuse the bees?

A little. But they often build a variety of different sized cells anyway, so I wouldn't worry too much.

>Or will they just adjust?

They will adjust.

[wayacoyote]

Michael didn't mention it here, but he's mentioned in the past that you can make an "X" with the wire in the frame. This seems to me like a reasonable compromise between horizontal and vertical. And you can use the wire holes that already exist in your end bars.

[djstory]

Thanks for the info. I am anxious to see what they come up with but am just feeding them and staying out of their way for a while. How soon should I see progress on them drawing out comb from the foundationless frames?

[Martha]

I wire the big "X" with the sc wax foundation and in the foundationless frames. I've had no problems with the bees building comb over the wires.

It is just two wires, one on one side then the other. It sure beats doing 4 horizontal!

Martha

[jaydee]

I am new at this, but the foundationless frames I constructed, I but a triangle piece at top(Michael's advice) and put 2 verticle wires and 1 horizontal wire. the ones that the bees have worked are completely full from corner to corner and top to bottom. I could not see any wire.I have put on second deep and in a couple of weeks will see how they fill it. I also have caught a swarm in a deep with ten frames this way and this weekend am going to open it up and check how they are building on it.

[wayacoyote]

Jaydee,
Congrats on the success,

How did you get the verticle wires in place? Did you drill holes in top and bottom bars?

WayaCoyote

[Lesli St. Clair]

>Do I need to wire the super frames if I am planning on extracting most of it later?

I don't. I guess you can if you like. Really? I don't have to wire if I'm going to extract?

[Michael Bush]

Whether you wire or don't wire you still have to be gentle when you extract. You'll have to be more gentle without any wire.

If you want to extract without wire, make sure the comb has "matured". Brand new comb is VERY soft. After a couple of weeks it's much tougher. If you're going to extract foundationless you'll have to wait until its connected at least some on all four sides.

If you are gentle (start slow and work your way up on speed only after most of the honey is out) you can extract foundationless and frames with foundation but no wire.

If you crank it up too fast, too soon, even with wire, you'll have blow outs.

I've never tried extracting deeps with no wire, but I've extracted mediums and shallows many times. But Charles Martin Simon, who used to manufacture the "Unfoundation" frames says he has extracted foundationless deeps.

[Lesli St. Clair]

OK. Thanks. I'll be using mediums, so I'll give it try.

[jaydee]

Yes, I drilled holes, one on each side and two on top and bottom of frame. I got a call about a swarm at a medical clinic last Friday and I put them in a deep with 10 frames with no wire, just with the angle piece on top.
This is the first time I have been called to remove a swarm, and being new at this learned a lot with the experience. When they called, I ask how high the bees were. i was told about head high in a tree next to entrance and they needed them gone quickly. I was there within the hour and without a ladder with a deep regular hive, thinking since they are so low they will be easy to get. When I arrived the bees were about fifteen feet up. Lots of people watching, I didn't have time to get a ladder, so I positioned my truck so I could stand on cab and with one hand hold the hive above my head and under the swarm and shake it off with the other. This was such an awkward position I thought all the people watching through the window was going to have a good laugh when I shook the limb, lost my balance and fell. Luckily this didn't happen. About half went in hive and I was able to sit it on my cab facing the front of the truck. A lot of the other bees fell on the hood of my truck with lots flying. There was a lot of bees climbing up my wind shield and up on cab into hive. In about 30 minutes all were in hive(except about 20) and I was on my way home with the bees. I did learn to come better prepared next time. Any advice will be appriciated

[Michael Bush]

First, never believe anyone who calls you to get bees. smile.gif As you see head high was 15 feet up. A swarm of bees was often sprayed before they called and since they didn't all die immediatly they call you, and fail to tell you they sprayed them. Then they act surprised when the bees are gone or dead when you arrive.

So, yes, be prepared for anything. SOME of it isn't dishonesty, some of it is adrenline. They are frightened and so they see more bees or closer bees than are actually there.

[jaydee]

I checked on bees that I caught with a swarm lure about 3 weeks ago in a single deep with ten foundationless frames with a single piece of comb about 4" by 4" tied to one of the frames. Seven of the tenn frames was filled completely and the other 3 about 2/3 way full. Everything looked good. I was afraid they might not build in line with frames since I had made them a little narrow.I had them spaced evenly, on three of the frames they had fudged to one side about an 1/8 inch. All other was good. All frames had been wired with 2 verticles and one horizontal. I put another deep with ten frames on today. This is the best any of my bees have done since I started 2 yrs ago.Thank you for the advice Michael and others

[KyBee]

Are there pics somewhere of how to do starter strips with small cell? My bee mentor helped me get a swarm yesterday. They're hanging out in their swarm box and I've got frames ready but I'm running low on foundation. I'm interested in letting them do it themselves with small cell starter strips (these are large cell bees). But I don't have a clue. Did a search, but no good description or pics.

I know there are pics here somewhere. Michael has pics of everything. :0)

thanks in advance

[Michael Bush]

I cut the strips about 3/4" and wax them in the groove with a wax tube fastener. You can wax them in with some melted wax and an old spoon. Or you can nail them (tightly) with the cleat like a sheet of foundation. If you don't get it tightly in it can come out and you'll have a mess. I also like to have either a fully drawn comb in the middle or one frame with a full sheet in the middle to get them in a straight line.

This is a plain wax starter strip waxed into a frame and the bees have started a comb. The starter strip used to be about 3/4" but the bees have stolen a lot of it off to build the comb. smile.gif

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/PrimaryCombOnBlankStarterStrip.JPG

[KyBee]

Cool. A picture helps a bunch. So one 3/4" strip across the top, fastened into the cleat will get them started on the frame straight? (I'm assuming that's what the wax is for--to encourage them to build in the frame rather than all over.) And I assume that they're not done with that comb in your picture and they will eventually connect it to all four sides of the frame?

I have wired my full sheets of small cell with horizontal wires and a big X. So if I understand correctly, if I want wire, I have to go ahead and do the wire, and then just install this 3/4" piece of wax all the way across the top. None anywhere else in the frame. The 3/4" is not wide enough to reach the wires to embed, so it'll just hang there and the bees will build their comb down from the pressed wax and around the wires. Have I got it sort of right?

The bee mentor who helped me catch this swarm also gave me a frame of drawn comb he had in the freezer. With some concern I have gone ahead and put this in the hive with the swarm, and four frames of small cell foundation. (It was a BIG pile of bees. Maybe a full size football and a half or three quarters. I'm guessing that's a really nice swarm.) I'm worried about two things:

1-Is the frame of large cell comb going to cause a problem with my planned regression? Once they are established I'll try to move it out of there.

2-Can I put the other five frames in the hive with starter strips and they'll go along just fine and keep going when they get to these?

BTW: I know you say these same things over and over and over to new people who can't find the threads or need it said again or in a different way. I don't know how you have the patience. Thanks for being willing.


KyBee

[Michael Bush]

>Cool. A picture helps a bunch. So one 3/4" strip across the top, fastened into the cleat will get them started on the frame straight?

Yes.

>And I assume that they're not done with that comb in your picture and they will eventually connect it to all four sides of the frame?

Eventually. But eventually depends on their need to draw comb at the time. Here's a foundationless (angled top bar instead of starter strip) but it's the same principle.

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG

>I have wired my full sheets of small cell with horizontal wires and a big X. So if I understand correctly, if I want wire, I have to go ahead and do the wire, and then just install this 3/4" piece of wax all the way across the top. None anywhere else in the frame.

You can do that.

> The 3/4" is not wide enough to reach the wires to embed, so it'll just hang there and the bees will build their comb down from the pressed wax and around the wires. Have I got it sort of right?

Yes. The only thing about nailing it with the cleat as opposed to waxing it in (besides that waxing is easier and quicker once you get started) is that the bees hanging from the wax can pull it loose (as they can with a full sheet of foundation also) if it's not nailed well.

>The bee mentor who helped me catch this swarm also gave me a frame of drawn comb he had in the freezer. With some concern I have gone ahead and put this in the hive with the swarm, and four frames of small cell foundation. (It was a BIG pile of bees.

A frame of drawn foundation will help get them in a straight line and give the queen somewhere to lay.

>1-Is the frame of large cell comb going to cause a problem with my planned regression?

Probably not much. They might do better without it as far as drawing small cell, but it probably won't confuse them much.

>Once they are established I'll try to move it out of there.

Correct. Try work it all the way to one side until all the brood emerges from it.

>2-Can I put the other five frames in the hive with starter strips and they'll go along just fine and keep going when they get to these?

Where are the other five frames? Don't you have ten frames in the box now?

[KyBee]

Question from Michael:
"Where are the other five frames? Don't you have ten frames in the box now?"

No. It was such a big pile of bees I didn't have room to put all the frames in. I had to wet them some to get them to roll out of the swarm box (they can really hang onto screen wire) and I was afraid that shoving them around to get the "pile" thin enough to put the other frames in would hurt too many bees, so they have five frames total, all shoved together in the middle of the box. The drawn comb is in the center frame. I left them alone yesterday so they could get adjusted and I was going in today to put in the other frames.

Is that bad? There were so many more bees than the packages I put in I kind of didn't know how to handle that many.

[Michael Bush]

>No. It was such a big pile of bees I didn't have room to put all the frames in. I had to wet them some to get them to roll out of the swarm box (they can really hang onto screen wire) and I was afraid that shoving them around to get the "pile" thin enough to put the other frames in would hurt too many bees, so they have five frames total, all shoved together in the middle of the box.

I would have gently set the frames on top of the pile and wait for them to let it work it's way to the bottom. They will eventually make room for it to fall to the bottom.

>The drawn comb is in the center frame. I left them alone yesterday so they could get adjusted and I was going in today to put in the other frames.

I'd put the rest in soon.

>Is that bad?

Bad? No. Brave? Yes. smile.gif You never know what bees will do with a big open space, but they often decide to use it in ways you did not anticipate.

[KyBee]

Ah. I see there is a sharp learning curve ahead. Also, I'm getting the impression from the way this hive is taking off that this will be a different experience from a package, and that I may be working my tail off to keep up with it. :0/

[Neubee]

Do the bees draw out natural comb better if they have a small cell starter strip?

APK

[Michael Bush]

>Do the bees draw out natural comb better if they have a small cell starter strip?

My preference for small or natural sized comb is a beveled top bar. But since most equipment already has a groove or a cleat and is set up to put foundation in, a starter strip is one alternative to get some natural sized cell without a lot of new skills, tools and reworking of equipment. If using a starter strip, my preference would be a blank one with no embossing and let the bees build what they want. But since that also takes equipment and work to make the blank sheets, many people use small cell starter strips to get the bees started on something that isn't misleading them into large cells. They will not draw natural comb better from a small cell starter strip than from a comb guide or a blank starter strip, but they will draw it out better than with a large cell starter strip.

[stonybrook]

Michael -

where does one gets the frames with the "angled" top bar? - deeps, etc?

thanks

[Pugs]

I'll give my experiances so far with starter strips and SC. I used starter strips (made from SC foundation) in medium frames to start my 2 packages. Since I didn't have any drawn comb, I did cut one sheet of foundation to fit into a frame and used it in the middle for each package. I didn't wire anything.

Both packages have almost filled the frames. There is a beespace at the bottom of the comb just above the frame and a beespace between the comb and the sides of the frame. There are some connections between the frame and the comb on most of the frames's sides and bottom. I had no problem handling them.

Now, how well were they drawn? A lot of drone comb on all of the frames. All of the combs could be better, as there is waveyness (is that a word, and if so, is it spelled correctly?) on all of them. One comb had a second drawn on it. I'm moving it to the side to replace.

I moved two frames in each hive up to the second box I added. In one 2nd body, I put the drawn frames in the middle with a starter between them. In the other hives' second body, one of the frames just wasn't drawn well enough to put in the middle of the hive, so I put it on the side. There are enough bees to cover them. Now that I think about it, I should have left in in the bottom box and used a different one for the 2nd frame moved up. Oh well, I think they will be fine as both hives have wall to wall bees and emerging brood (and drones).

What am I going to do for the third box? I'm going to wire frames, use full sheets of SC foundation (to try and get better drawn comb for the brood nest), and feed them into the first two boxes brood nest. I'm also going to cut the sides down to 1 1/4 inches to encourage them to draw the foundation small.

My swarm I caught just isn't doing well. I'm going to put it into a nuc tomorrow (I've got to build the nuc first and my neighbor isn't home so I can't use his shop).

It was neat seeing the bees emerge. I didn't see the queens, but I know they are laying. I did see new workers and worker brood. The workers did look smaller. I think my carni queens must not be pure as some of the new brood was yellow. Doesn't bother me though. I'm going to requeen with NWC queens (maybe a WV too) this fall.

Pugs

[Michael Bush]

You can cut a beveled piece of wood (like the corner off of a one by at a 45 degree angle) and nail it onto the top bar. You can take a regular top bar (ungrooved prefered, grooved works better than cleated and cleated will work) and run the top bar through the saw and cut a 45 on each side.

[Dick Allen]

My tbh starter strips were made from pieces of broken foundation, both small cell and standard cell. One piece of standard still had the vertical wires. Another piece of standard cell came from broken comb honey foundation. At first I didn't have beveled top bars. When I first installed the bees they ignored the strips, went to the rear of the hive and built their comb perpendicular to the bars. Those were cut off and inserted into the non-beveled frames which were interspersed with the starter strips. I have, since then, beveled the remaining bars. The bees are now makng their comb quite nicely, except for a single piece of comb which is the most forward one. It has gotten wider than the rest and violates the 1.25 center to center dimension even though there is an undrawn strip in front of that. The cells my bees are drawing appear to be about the same size no matter what cell size strip they used.

[Michael Bush]

One way to eliminate the gap at the bottom is to nail the bottom bar on and pull it back out 3/8". Then when they leave the gap at the bottom you can push it back up the 3/8" and close the gap. This was not my idea, but comes from Jay Smith.