Actual Cell Size

[Michael Bush]

I was reading the following exerpt from http://www.bee-l.com/bioarchive/feb2001/msg137.htm

"Where the following measurments are given:

SOUTH AFRICAN "4.8" FOUNDATION - source (company) unknown to me.
diag1=93mm/20 cells (4.65mm/cell)
diag2=92.5/20 (4.625)
horiz=97/20 (4.85)
AVERAGE 4.71mm/cell

LUSBY'S "4.9" FOUNDATION
diag1=95.5/20 (4.775)
diag2=95.5/20 (4.775)
Horiz=97/20 (4.85)
AVERAGE 4.80mm/cell

DADANT "4.9" FOUNDATION
diag1=102/20 (5.1)
diag2=101/20 (5.05)
horiz=102/20 (5.1)
AVERAGE 5.08mm/cell"

I guess I need to remeasure the Dadant 4.9mm foundation, but this is really closer to 5.1mm. Is this small enough? After taking into account cell wall thickness my wax coated PermaComb is about 4.95mm. And here I was thiking that was a bit larger than I really wanted and it's actually .13mm smaller than Dadant's "4.9".

Dee, if this is true, and I don't know that it is, then you are using closer to 4.8mm now? I realize you have gradually worked your way down to this. Do you have other sized still in your hives?

I've been looking for a source for 4.8mm foundation, but have yet to find one. Does anyone know of one?

[Clayton]

Hi Micheal,

What is being discussed here is Dadant's first attempt at making the 4.9 foundation. It was stretching as it went through the hi- speed mill and was creating a larger cell size. The foundation has been fixed since then.

Dee, if this is true, and I don't know that it is, then you are using closer to 4.8mm now?

reply:

When the foundation is made by hand it can be milled hot through the mill and will shrink into the 4.8??? range. So I'say Dee is using a range between 4.8 - 4.9 sizing.

Do you have other sized still in your hives?

reply:

When I asked some time ago she said the 4.9 is the top tolerance in the hives.

I've been looking for a source for 4.8mm foundation, but have yet to find one. Does anyone know of one?

reply:

Does it have to be made in the USA? Should be some suppliers in africa. The only way to get it in the US that I know of is to mill hot as I said above. Micheal, I have finally this year had bees draw 4.85mm cells off dadant foundation so they can draw the cells smaller if inclined to do so.

Clay

[Michael Bush]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Dee A. Lusby]

Michael wrote:
Dee, if this is true, and I don't know that it is, then you are using closer to 4.8mm now?

Reply:
Yes we are. I use 4.9mm top tolerance milled by hand with hot wax, so when the wax sheets cool following embossing I end up in the lower range in sizing. this is the way foundation was made turn of century in early 1900. Only with assemble lines and pulleys with more modern methods do you get sizing in opposit direction to the bigger and hence, bigger and bigger combs due to fudging.

You also wrote:
I realize you have gradually worked your way down to this. Do you have other sized still in your hives?

Reply:
When we shook down it was not gradually. We popped from 5.4 in mid 1980s to 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing. Then in spring of 1997 after making foundation for a year to get ready, we popped down from 5.0mm - 5.1mm sizing to the 4.9mm top tolerance I handmake (really in the middle 4.8mm range and closer to the 4.83 size this country started with with original foundation making in mass production.)

We have used no other sizing since spring of 1997!!!! To do so confuses bees and makes the process harder to standardize back to natural sizing.

You then wrote:
I've been looking for a source for 4.8mm foundation, but have yet to find one. Does anyone know of one?

Reply:
S. Africa maybe. Other then that you have to buy a 4.9mm mill like me and Clayton here (he got one ;> ) and make your own. I by the way still got a lone mill yet from when Tom Industries stopped making them when Tom got badly sick. All rest now in other beekeepers hands.

Regards,

Dee