worker cell size

[buckfast]

Concerning the size of worker cells, does anyone have any specific information on research that has been done on this topic? does the size of cells vary with climate. Has anyone tried to let bees in differnent climates build their own comb? I would be especially interested in any information pertaining to the Northeastern US. Thanks for any leads or help.

[Barry]

Cell size information is about the only thing I've been working on for the last 2 months. I'm adding more info to the site on a regular basis. The Lusby's have probably studied more research on cell size than anyone else. Read up at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm

Yes, the size of cell does vary with climate and a map has been created by the Lusby's showing such zones that is linked off of this page: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun1998.htm

I know that quite a few beekeepers are/have converted over to 4.9mm cell size for their bees as this is the natural size for bees in most of North America. I've recently started the process and will be posting it at: http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm

Regards,
Barry

[mhoel]

Are any of the foundation manufacturers making the smaller sizes? (ie Rite Cell, Duragilt, Plasticell etc.)

Is anyone selling the small sizes?

------------------
Mike

[Barry]

Mike -

I am told that the smallest size foundation available in the States is 5.1mm and sold by Miller's American Honey in Colton, California. I will be calling them this week to verify and let you know.

Right now the only way to obtain 4.9mm is from other beekeepers who have already regressed their bees and are making their own foundation. Several people (including myself) are in the process of making molds for 4.9mm size foundation and once completed, will give anyone the ability to make their own foundation molds/press from just a single sheet of existing 4.9mm foundation.

Regards,
Barry

[Juandefuca]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry:
Mike -

I am told that the smallest size foundation available in the States is 5.1mm and sold by Miller's American Honey in Colton, California. I will be calling them this week to verify and let you know.

Right now the only way to obtain 4.9mm is from other beekeepers who have already regressed their bees and are making their own foundation. Several people (including myself) are in the process of making molds for 4.9mm size foundation and once completed, will give anyone the ability to make their own foundation molds/press from just a single sheet of existing 4.9mm foundation.

Regards,
Barry<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Barry
I have measured cells and find various measures . Anywhere from 4.9 to 5.5. The 5'5 appear to be drone brood cells but are also used for honey storage.
As far as the manufactured foundation go , I am not aware what those sizes are. However, at on time I researched the places of manufacturing of molds. There is an outfit in EL Cajon / Cal. which does that . If I recall correctly they manufacture two sizes. One of them is smaller and is applied to the Africanised bee. Apparently it would be for export to the south.I am not aware of the size either.It is possible that I might find the source again but I cannot promise.
regards
Catfish

[Juandefuca]

Hi Barry
I checked today again and came up with the following:
Location :Strait of Juan de Fuca , Olympic Peninsula, Port Angeles area.
Elevation : 200 feet plus / minus 50 feet.
Race of bees : Mix of Italian leftovers ,Carnica ,but primarily local wild stock , assumed to be of caucasian origin.
Hive : 3rd year in TBH, Kenya type.
Cell size of drone and Honey storage ( No foundation used): 6.5 to 7.0 m/m.
worker cell size : 5.4 to 5.5 m/m.
Accuracy : 1/2 m/m plus , minus.
Climate : cool, moist, windy , overcast.
Wild stock originated from "bee trees" .
Previous measures of worker cells ocasionally
but rarely down to 4.9 m/m.
catfish

[Barry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juandefuca:
Hive : 3rd year in TBH, Kenya type.
Cell size of drone and Honey storage ( No foundation used): 6.5 to 7.0 m/m.
worker cell size : 5.4 to 5.5 m/m.
Accuracy : 1/2 m/m plus , minus.
Climate : cool, moist, windy , overcast.
Wild stock originated from "bee trees" .
Previous measures of worker cells ocasionally
but rarely down to 4.9 m/m.
catfish<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this to jive with what I'm finding. On my bees (that are all on 5.4 mm foundation) that were put on 4.9 starter strips and left to build comb from there, I would get some drone/honey comb as big as 7.1 mm cell size with worker brood cell size 5.2 mm.

It's these large cells that are now loading up with varroa. How do you deal with varroa in your TBH's? I just did a total shakedown of this hive and put them on 4.9 foundation. This being the second regression this season, they should do pretty well with keeping to the 4.9 size.

I now have 2 hives on 4.9 cell size and will now concentrate on culling out any irregular comb as each new round of brood does a better job of building true 4.9 cell size. It appears that regression to 4.9 cell size is possible within one season if conditions are favorable, as they have been this year.

I will be updating this page very soon with new photos. http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm

Regards,
Barry



[This message has been edited by Barry (edited 06-20-2000).]

[Juandefuca]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry:
I find this to jive with what I'm finding. On my bees (that are all on 5.4 mm foundation) that were put on 4.9 starter strips and left to build comb from there, I would get some drone/honey comb as big as 7.1 mm cell size with worker brood cell size 5.2 mm.

It's these large cells that are now loading up with varroa. How do you deal with varroa in your TBH's? I just did a total shakedown of this hive and put them on 4.9 foundation. This being the second regression this season, they should do pretty well with keeping to the 4.9 size.

I now have 2 hives on 4.9 cell size and will now concentrate on culling out any irregular comb as each new round of brood does a better job of building true 4.9 cell size. It appears that regression to 4.9 cell size is possible within one season if conditions are favorable, as they have been this year.

I will be updating this page very soon with new photos. http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited 06-20-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Barry
Sorry to answer that late to your post. I am somewhat backward finding posts on this site.
But now it accidentally lighted up.
To answer your question about the varroa problem in tbhches. Well It is to me very awkward to inspect and handle these tbh hives. As far as the strip placement goes it really is not a problem. But to count the dead bodies is another story. At best it is inaccurate . I have a white plastic sheet on the bottom of the hivebody which is supposed to be a sliding out feature. BUT the buggers usually glue the thing somewhere and it is a major endavour to pull it out or remove frames to undue it where it is stuck. Then the bees , in this case good house keepers , remove the varroa and other debris and one is as wise as before. So , an answer to this problem of checking has to this date no result worth talking about.
Other medications , such as formic acid , menthol , etc poses hereto an unresolved matter also. At least for me it is. Maybe somebody has a solution practical as well as speedy.I think I mentioned it somewhere that one of the two TBH is Kenya , the other a modified Tanzania fit to Langstroth dimension to utilise the mass of frames I have laying about.
Both TBH are very prolific , specifically in drone production ( If anyone is out for drones , Come to me and get 'em)The comb building is nothing to write home about. But the excess combs render themselves perfect for comb honey in chunks.
Should I ever consider building another TBH , the construction features would be the same as my other ones,( Ordinary tom/Dick/Harry Langs) i.e. screened bottomboards with removable screen as well as the inspection board. At this time I am working on a pollen collector incorporating the other items also.
Also I got into Pedro's fuming thing.( since 2 months)I apply as he says and I will see in the fall what gives. Meantime I have found in 14 colonies one live varoa in drone brood and three dead since last fall ( None this spring in any colony after miticide application) on the inspection board. I check daily where applicable. ( Not all boards are all the way in)Ventilation is one of my idiosyncracies.
The cellsizes are so irregular in these TBH hives that I am at loss to see the light.It appears that the size fits the location and it has no effect on the propagation of varroa . If one is not on the ball with it ,one loses colonies in spite of cellsize, SO IT SEEMS. But as mentioned before these wild bees have something going for themselves and the jury is not back yet on that one.
At this time the tbh with langs frames is so big that I have now an equal of 4 deep hive bodies ( double decker) and all are loaded with bees but not necessarily with combs . The bees just hang there in beards.There were in three years two swarms which I collected out of Kenya. None out of the other yet.I hope I confused you totally and I regret that superficially. Until the next time , happy beeing
JDF
Fell free to bother me with your observations . I like that !

[Juandefuca]

Hi Barry and Everyone.
This is un update of recent findings.
Last Thursday evening a feral colony was removed and hived from an eve in a house 1000 plus feet up the mountains in absolute wilderness without any known domestic colony nearby.( Olympic Mountains)
This colony consited of about 2 lb of very docile friendly bees ,which came to the location about 5 day prior to the removal.The race of bees unknown , neither dark nor light.
New combs were of uniform size and partially filled with nectar and pollen.
The cellsize varied between 4.75 to 5.1 m/m.
These bees appeared to be slightly smaller than our so called "Domestic" stock.
The bees were hived Thursday night and absconded Friday morning some time, regretfully. . This colony had no mated ripe queen ,at the most an unidentified virgin. It may have joined one of mine in the apiary.
Another colony was removed under similar circumstances at a 200 feet elevation on Saturday night. It was an very old feral colony of mixed origin .Multiple colonies in the neighborhood. The cellsize was equal to any other here , 5.1 to 5.7. According to neighbor hearsay is this colony there for at lest 5 years. The new owner wanted them removed.
It yielded about 5 gallons of honey. No Varroa was found in dronecells checked. The colony had all the earmarks of being very healthy and massive ( Total of 5 gal bucket of at least 3/4 full of bees).It was also hived and appears to be settling down.
That's it for the day.
Happy beeing
catfish