8 Frame v/s 10 frame deeps

[balhanapi]

Hello All,
I have a few questions..
1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?
I read somewhere that 8 frame hives are not that stable when supers are stacked up and the brood chamber has 2 frames less(well we can file the frames and squeeze 9 frames as our respected MB does :cool: ), apart from these any sugesstions?
2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

I am yet to start so I am open to all sugestions/ideas smile.gif
I like deep frames at the same time don't wan't to strain my back, thats why this dilemma..

[Craig W.]

This is a link to all the writings of Walt Wright, he did an article of 9 frames in a 10 frame deep.

http://www.knology.net/~k4vb/all%20walt%20articles.htm

[Sundance]

1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?

Ease of use and lighter weight are the big
advantages I see. A disadvantage is that it
is not "standard" and equipment availability
is limited to a few suppliers. Not a big deal
for a hobbyist.

2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

Not from my limited experience. Clusters are
seldom (if ever) going to span the eight frames
and they generally move upward.

3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

Not trying to be a smart alec here but they
will weigh 20% less. The weight will vary
a lot.

If your going to consider 8 frame then take
a look at going all mediums. Much easier to
handle, real back savers.

[balhanapi]

Cool quick answers! I love this forum smile.gif
Thanks!
I want all my boxes to be of the same dimensions so thinking 8 frame deeps would be good for both brood chambers as well as honey supers.. Has anyone tried it? Is it feasible?
Craig W I am interested in 9 frames in an 8 frame deep not 9 frames in a 10 frame deep. sorry if I didn't clarify earlier..

[ January 27, 2007, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: balhanapi ]

[Michael Bush]

>1. What are the advantages/disadvantages of using 8 frame deeps for brood chambers v/s standard 10 frame?

10 frame deeps if they get full of honey weigh 90 pounds. 8 frame deeps if they get full of honey weigh about 60 pounds. 8 frame mediums if they are full of honey weigh about 48 pounds. I use all 8 frame mediums.

>I read somewhere that 8 frame hives are not that stable when supers are stacked up and the brood chamber has 2 frames less

When you get a 60 mph gust of wind it will sometimes topple any tall hive. I've had the DE hives which are about 18 1/2" square blow over as well as some of the ten frame Langstroth equipment. I've actually never had one of the eight frame hives blow over, but, of course, they could, I've just been lucky. Put them up against each other or against each other in pairs and it won't be a problem.

>2.Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

No. I know several people who believe it's a significant advantage. I don't know about that, but it's not a disadvantage.

>3.How much less does a 8 frame super with honey/brood weigh as compared to 10 frame?

10 frame medium weighs 60 pounds. 8 frame medium weighs 48 pounds:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes

>I like deep frames at the same time don't wan't to strain my back, thats why this dilemma..

Another option is to go with 12 frame Dadant Deeps for the brood chamber and then put eight frame supers on top of that. smile.gif

You could just put a filler board on the side like this:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/TenFrameToEight.JPG

[Walts-son-in-law]

I will print this for Walt.

BTW, Walt will be giving Nectar Management presentations in Connecticut on Tuesday, Jan. 30 and in New York on Tuesday, Feb 13. For details check the thread
"Walt Wright appearances" in the General Beekeeping forum
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=007119;p=#00000 4

Roy

[Panhandle Bee man]

Since the back strain is already a consideration go with medium/Illinios depth boxes. Forget deeps!
The bees will not care.

As for 8 vs 10, pick one and stay with it (otherwixe you will find you don't have the right size box when you need it or have to go through a stack of one size to get to the size you need).

[balhanapi]

Thanks for the responses so far..
Ok the question thats coming to my mind is that if the medium super weighs 60lbs and the 8 frame deep also weighs 60lbs then whats the advantage of going with 10 frame medium? why can't 8 frame deeps be used for everything - brood as well as honey?
I ask this coz I read at Beewranglers site that the vertical height is a consideration when bees build their own comb and I plan to use foundationless deep frames so as to give the bees maximum advantage. I also like the idea of garangutan( check sp.) brood chamber i.e. doulbedeep with frames running from top of the top deep to the base of lower deep for the same reason.

I plan to start 2 hives next spring so um doing my homework Plz bear.. smile.gif

[ January 29, 2007, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: balhanapi ]

[Spigold]

Nothing wrong with running all deeps just the weight factor. Also if you run all deeps then you can exchange frames between supers and brood bodies.

I would not recommend running 9 frames in an 8-frame box. I run 14" 8-framers and you can sometimes just squeeze 9 frames in. I do this for drawing foundation. They are nearly impossible to get a frame out, once things are propolized.

I would suggest 14" 8-framers with 8 frames or 7 and a feeder and 7 frames evenly spaced in the honey super. The 14" box has enough room to dig a frame out. With 7 frames in a honey super the bees draw out the comb beyond the wooden/plastic frame for easy uncapping.

I have not had any problems with wintering in 8-frame equipment.

Most woodenware manufacturers will custom cut what ever you want, find a local miller and buy all your equipment from it.

Once you pick dimensions stick with them.

I'm skeptical of the idea of letting them draw all of their own comb. This comb will contain drone brood of various amounts and lack the strength needed to handle extracting. Having no experience with allowing them to draw their own comb. I would guess that you will have frames that have to be destroyed because of comb constructed incorrectly (wavy, wrong direction, brace comb). There are proponents of all wax foundation and plastic foundation. I prefer plastic. No wiring. When they build drone comb on it you can scrape it off and start over. But they are slower to draw it out.


Good luck!

[Michael Bush]

>why can't 8 frame deeps be used for everything - brood as well as honey?

You can. But as long as you're going to 8 frames, I think you'll enjoy the 8 frame mediums more. 48 pounds is about the right amount of weight. If it was lighter you'd want to try to pick up two. If it was heavier, you'd wish it was lighter.

For foundationless the mediums have better support for extracting, not to mention the extractors mostly hold twice as many of mediums as deeps.

>I'm skeptical of the idea of letting them draw all of their own comb. This comb will contain drone brood of various amounts

Per frame, yes, per hive, it's fairly constant. They have a threshold for drone comb and will work at reaching it. Once it's reached they will not want more drone comb.

> and lack the strength needed to handle extracting.

When it's brand new comb and when it's not attached yet on all four sides, yes. Once it is, it extracts fine. Again, the advantage would be to the mediums over the deeps in this regard.

> Having no experience with allowing them to draw their own comb. I would guess that you will have frames that have to be destroyed because of comb constructed incorrectly (wavy, wrong direction, brace comb).

Sure. You'll have some with plastic foundation too, in about the same amounts.

> There are proponents of all wax foundation and plastic foundation. I prefer plastic. No wiring. When they build drone comb on it you can scrape it off and start over. But they are slower to draw it out.

I prefer foundationless. No wiring and when they build drone comb you can just cut it out, if you insist. But I wouldn't. And they will be faster to draw it out.

[Spigold]

"Per frame, yes, per hive, it's fairly constant. They have a threshold for drone comb and will work at reaching it. Once it's reached they will not want more drone comb."

If you remember where you saw such a study I would like to read it. Also, how would mite trapping with drone foundation work into this equation? Would they only draw a partial frame if they reached their threshold?

"Sure. You'll have some with plastic foundation too, in about the same amounts."

If this has been studied I would like to read it also. I have very little comb that is improperly built when using plastic foundation (easily less than 10%). You suggest by this comment that "free drawn comb" is also this good. If this is so why does the industry buy/use foundation? Why is the invention of foundation mills and foundation touted as one of the three breakthroughs for modern beekeeping?

Since varroa prefers and reproduces more successfully on drone brood, I look to minimize the amount in my hives.

Cheers!

[Jeffrey Todd]

>You can. But as long as you're going to 8 frames, I think you'll enjoy the 8 frame mediums more. 48 pounds is about the right amount of weight.

Amen. The fingertip holds most boxes have in them make a heavy load more difficult to handle than it ought to be. Since none of us are growing younger and stronger, and won't be anytime soon, I am a big believer in not using deeps, and am becoming more and more convinced of the wisdom of 8 frames versus 10.

[balhanapi]

<<Does having just 8 frames to cluster have an adverse effect on overwintering bees?

No. I know several people who believe it's a significant advantage. >>>

Hi MB, This is interesting could you tell us more about it? I mean what would be the mechanism behind it?

please..

please.... smile.gif ( I know u said you don't know about it but please..)

[Michael Bush]

The people who think it's a significant advantage point out that the cluster size is such that the bees fill out the frames, at least on warmer days, and they will work their way to the top without so much meandering and leaving behind stores. Also the closer walls may be warmer. While I can see the point, I'm not sure that it is a significant advantage.

[Matt NY]

What about the amount of stores in 8 v 10? All things being equal the cluster should be the same size, but there would be fewer stores in an 8 frame set up.

[middlesattrefarm]

To chime in my 2 cents, I use 9 frames in a ten frame box for brood, and honey. I did this because Steven Taber claimed it would not squash as many bees. Starting out I liked it and still do, You can get frames out and not feel like someone will get killed (like the Queen!) every time you check things out.

[Michael Bush]

>If you remember where you saw such a study I would like to read it.

I saw a study presented by Dr. Clarence Collison - Professor and Head, Department of Entomology, Mississippi on the number of drones in a hive based on the amount of drone comb. No matter how much drone comb they gave the hive the bees reared the same number of drones. They would give a hive nothing but drone comb or nothing but worker comb. The end results were still the same. This is concerning the threshold for drones (as opposed to drone comb).

A study on the threshold for drone comb was mentioned several times by several people on this board, I believe one was Dennis Murrel. I don't remember where to find it now. But it's consistent with my experience.

>but there would be fewer stores in an 8 frame set up.

Two eight frame mediums = One ten frame deep. Use as many boxes as you need. They will do a better job of managing the stores in a skinnier box.

>I use 9 frames in a ten frame box for brood, and honey. I did this because Steven Taber claimed it would not squash as many bees.

My experience is that the combs have more ins and outs with 9 frames in the brood nest and this makes me MORE paranoid of squashing bees. I shave the end bars and put 11 frames in a ten frame box and 9 frames in an eight frame box.

[middlesattrefarm]

Tabor was quoting his teacher Farara(?) on that one, and stated that when he was at the UW Madison bee lab that was the desired set up.
I should note that I also use those metal frame spacer clips that go inside the frame rests.
I have found that they are much cleaner, but I attribute this to the fact that my boxes are mixed, and are not all the same dimensions. that happens when you get alot of oddball stuff.

[Joel]

We run our comb honey hives in 8 frame equipment. We run singles which make causes crowding sometimes so management is a little more time consuming. We think bees pull comb honey out quicker and more completely than in 10 frame.

We have consistently wintered 8 frame singles in the Fingerlakes Region with good success. Bees really pack out all 8 frames and we find the cluster seldom has to move over the winter to reach new stores.

As far as weight goes I'm not experiancing much of a weight difference as everything is usually packed full with honey/brood whereas 10 frames tend to have more open space.

I would not run them for extracted honey since as mentioned running singles tends to result in crowded brood chambers and increased managmentment to prevent swarms. I would think if you ran doubles it would be a great system although equipment is less avaialable.

[Matt NY]

Joel wrote:
We have consistently wintered 8 frame singles in the Fingerlakes Region with good success. Bees really pack out all 8 frames and we find the cluster seldom has to move over the winter to reach new stores.

Matt writes while scratching his head:
Just when I think I have a slight handle on things I have to readjust my paradigm. I can fathom the notion that the bees can fit an similar amount of stores in an 8 frame deep as they can a 10 frame deep due to a more compaction. But singles? I bet they aren't Italians. I probably lose this one too.

I'm getting ready to make the next step in my upcoming second season and this is an important factor right now.

[Spigold]

This is my first season wintering in 8-frame singles. So far everything looks really good. I have a few in the field and a few in a cellar house.

I would agree that they seem to fill out the whole box, covering 6-7 frames of 7 total.

DD seem to spread upwards in Jan and Feb and occupy 3-4 frames in both boxes. Though they seem to use most of the feed in the lower box before moving up.

In my experience, open space in an 8-frame DD in the fall is bad news. They need all of the space filled with honey with a frame or so of brood. Otherwise they just don't have enough feed. Also make sure they have been plugged out of the upper story. Otherwise they move up too quickly and starve in Feb-March.

I have used most races of bees and they all seem to winter well in 8-frame, even Italians. Which are heading some of the singles this winter (MN Hyg. and Wootens.

"They would give a hive nothing but drone comb or nothing but worker comb. The end results were still the same."

If they had nothing but worker comb were did the drones come from?

[balhanapi]

Thanks guys, for clearing up sooo many doubts...

So basically double deep of 8 frame is eough space to overwinter on as compared to 10 frame double deep, but they really have to pack all of that space. I was thinking of running 3 deeps of 8 frame to give them total 24 frames instead of 16. Is that ok in a climate as ours(PA)? or is that 3rd deep really not needed?
Also it would be easier to checkerboard the hive in spring if they still have honey in the 3rd deep(top)..
any inputs?..

[bluegrass]

New question! If you are going to cut down 10 frame to 8 frame, what should the inside width of the box be?

[Spigold]

Outside dimensions vary, I prefer 14".

My experience wintering in 3 stories. Lots of honey with little need to feed in spring. +/- you don't have do late spring feeding but then you don't get to stimulate them to raise more brood, earlier.

They also seem to "chimney" more and leave honey behind.

They are also a little harder to get them to "plug out". If you have a good fall flow that might not be as much a problem. Otherwise they have huge clusters that occupy two stories, with empty comb. There is probably as much honey in a DD as a 3-story in this scenario. Which leaves you in the same position as a DD.

I try to leave 10% with three stories so I have extra honey to feed in the early spring. If you don't watch them they move up into that 3rd story and consume your feed honey. If an intended 3 story hive is not plugged out of the second story by mid Sept I condense down into two.

My $0.02

[Michael Bush]

>If they had nothing but worker comb were did the drones come from?

They gave them nothing but worker foundation in some of the hives and nothing but drone foundation in some of the hives. ALL the hives reworked enough foundation into what they needed to do what they needed to do and ended up with the same proportions of drones to workers. The ones with drone foundation had more drone comb. The ones with worker foundation had less drone comb. But they all had virtually the same number of drones.

>New question! If you are going to cut down 10 frame to 8 frame, what should the inside width of the box be?

Outside is what I'd measure. Mine are all 13 3/4" simply because Brushy Mt., who seemed to be the only manufacturer with any assortment of eight frame accessories for years, used that size. Now Mann Lake and Betterbee have 14" equipment.

I guess I'll stick with 13 3/4". You could compromise and make it 13 7/8" and you could probably get by with mixing that with either 13 3/4" or 14" without too many problems.

[Matt NY]

Michael Bush writes:
Outside is what I'd measure. Mine are all 13 3/4" simply because Brushy Mt., who seemed to be the only manufacturer with any assortment of eight frame accessories for years, used that size. Now Mann Lake and Betterbee have 14" equipment.
Matt writes:
I don't know about Mann Lake, but BetterBee uses 7/8 thick boards as oppossed to the 3/4 that most others use. So the inside would be the same.

[Michael Bush]

But the inside should really (to match 10 frame standard boxes) be 12". With a 13 3/4" box it's 12 1/4". With a 14" box (with 3/4" boards) it's 12 1/2". With a 14" box with 7/8" boards it's 12 1/4" again. But as long as it's not less than 11 3/8" inside it will hold eight standard 1 3/8" frames fine with a 3/8" beespace on the outsides of the outside frames. That's 12 7/8" OUTSIDE with 3/4" boards to make a minimum sized eight frame box.

There is considerable excess space in all eight frame boxes I've seen.

[balhanapi]

I'l ask again..
Are two 8 frame deeps enough for southern pennsylvania(pittsburgh area) for overwintering or is it advisable to use the third deep on top? (two 10 frame deeps are the norm around here i.e 20 frames, so trying to even out with 24 frames in 3 deeps instead of 16 in two 8 frame deeps)


also MB eight 1 3/8 frames add up to 11 inches so do we need to leave some space on the outside of the outer frames or not? in other words how did you get 11 3/8 inner dimensions?
please bear with my stupid questions a new bee here smile.gif

[Michael Bush]

>Are two 8 frame deeps enough for southern pennsylvania(pittsburgh area) for overwintering or is it advisable to use the third deep on top? (two 10 frame deeps are the norm around here i.e 20 frames, so trying to even out with 24 frames in 3 deeps instead of 16 in two 8 frame deeps)

Two eight frame deeps is four frames short of two deeps. I'm not from there. My guess is, yes, it should be fine if it's pretty well stocked with stores.

>also MB eight 1 3/8 frames add up to 11 inches so do we need to leave some space on the outside of the outer frames or not?

Always.

> in other words how did you get 11 3/8 inner dimensions?

If you take 1 3/8" frames and put them in and figure that half of the bee space comes with each frame (because of the spacers) then that means you need a minimum of half of that on each end (3 1/16") for a total of 11 3/8". I'd crowd all of the frames in the middle and leave the excess on the outside.

[balhanapi]

Thanks MB smile.gif

[leamon]

I'm thinking of using 8 frame mediums in my small operation. How about pros and cons of making 10 frame boxes but using a filler instead of 2 frames? That way they could be switched to either and would fit with standard equiptment.

leamon

[Michael Bush]

>I'm thinking of using 8 frame mediums in my small operation. How about pros and cons of making 10 frame boxes but using a filler instead of 2 frames? That way they could be switched to either and would fit with standard equiptment.

Using followers is a common practice. Even more common in the past. It will make the box a little lighter, but there are more parts to buy/make and more to mess with and the weight I want to get rid of is what is furthest from my body.

Using follower boards will work fine if that's what you want to do. I prefer the eight frame boxes with nine 1 1/4" wide frames in them.

[honigbiene]

Michael Bush: "I prefer the eight frame boxes with nine 1 1/4" wide frames in them."
The standard frames have 1 3/8" wide end bars and 1 1/16" wide top bars. For your nine-frame-in-an-eight-frame box configuration, you shave the end bars down to 1 1/4" wide. The total width of the nine frames is then 11 1/4" wide, leaving (in your 13 3/4" box, 12 1/4" inside) 1 inch to spread between the 10 gaps between walls and frames, an average of 1/10". This is too small to be a bee space. Do the bees fill it up with propolis?
I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide. This totals to 10 1/8 inches for the nine frames, leaving a total space between the frames and walls of 2 1/8", or 0.2125" per gap. Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends? Same thing on the top bars. The standard width is 1 1/16". Your nine frames take up 9 9/16', leaving 2 11/16" to put into 10 gaps, or 2.6875". I understand from other posts on beesource.com that 0.25" is sufficient beespace. Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16", or do you trim them down, too?

Thanks,

David

[Dave W]

>1 inch to spread between the 10 gaps between walls and frames, an average of 1/10" . . .
There is no space between frames, only 1/2" of unused room at each hive wall.

>I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide . . .
Trimming shoulders DOES change the bee space under the shoulders. The space becomes only 1/8" wide.

>Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends . . .
No. The bees probably go over the top or under the endbars, IF they need to get to the SIDE of frame.

>Same thing on the top bars . . .
Trimming shoulders moves the top bars closer and leaves a 3/16" space between bars. Standard space is 5/16".

>Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16" . . .
If you plan to trim top bars, better do it BEFORE frames are assembled.

I am producing (and selling smile.gif ) a custom-made 1-1/4 side bar w/ a 15/16 wide top bar that has a V-bottom (no foundation required). My special frames solve the problems noted above.

[Michael Bush]

>This is too small to be a bee space.

Actually, yes it is. I should cut down the top bars. I have not.

> Do the bees fill it up with propolis?

They build some burr comb sometimes.

>I assume you leave the lower part of the end bars at 1 1/8" wide.

I do.

>This totals to 10 1/8 inches for the nine frames, leaving a total space between the frames and walls of 2 1/8", or 0.2125" per gap. Is this enough bee space for the bees to get from one side of the frame to the other by crawling around the ends?

I don't know, but with the HSC the end bars are 1 3/8" all the way to the bottom. The bees still get around.

>Same thing on the top bars. The standard width is 1 1/16". Your nine frames take up 9 9/16', leaving 2 11/16" to put into 10 gaps, or 2.6875". I understand from other posts on beesource.com that 0.25" is sufficient beespace. Do you leave the top bars at 1 1/16", or do you trim them down, too?

I keep meaning to cut them down. I have not. Maybe someday I'll get around to it.

>I am producing (and selling [Smile] ) a custom-made 1-1/4 side bar w/ a 15/16 wide top bar that has a V-bottom (no foundation required). My special frames solve the problems noted above.

Dave's are just right. The right width of everything. I will be purchasing a lot of them. smile.gif

[leamon]

Dave W, I'd like more info on the frames you are selling. I can't find a way to contact you.

leamon

[Dave W]

leamon . . .

Sent you a PM.

[Pugs]

Speaking of cutting down the top bars -

Last fall I needed more frames and my supplier only had 'California' top bars for them. These were, wait for it, 7/8" wide (using a very inexact ruler), which, I think is the size you're cutting them down to.

I guess I'll start asking for them for all of my frames. Saves one step.

Pugs

[leamon]

Dave, sent you an answer but the system showed a problem.
leamon

[Michael Bush]

What supplier was that?

[Dave W]

Pugs . . .

>7/8" wide (using a very inexact ruler), which, I think is the size you're cutting them down to.

7/8" and 15/16" are almost the same, but not quite smile.gif

Do the 'California' top bars fit other frame parts made by other suppliers?

Where did get your 7/8" wide top bars?

[Pugs]

Dave, well I said it was an inexact ruler! I didn't want to go out to the shop to get my tape to measure.

I would think they would work with other suppliers parts. I'm calling them tomorrow and see if they have some ready, if so, I'm going to try and get some more frames this weekend. Mike and Dave, I'd be happy to mail you a few top bars so you can try them. I think they only come in the groved style, but I'll ask.

Mike and Dave, the supplier is Snow Peak Apiaries, Franz Yordy owner, in Lebanon Oregon, 541-451-3752. I think he ships only big orders (but I'm not sure how 'big' 'big' is). It is a nice 40 minutes' drive, mostly through the country, for me to get there. Sure beats shipping charges and makes for a pleasnt afternoon.

If you have specific questions, let me know what they are and I'll ask for you and get back with the answers.

Pugs