Wood Frames and Plastic Foundation

[BeeTeach]

I noticed that in the article in BC on the Addee operation this month they showed a worker buidling wooden frames around plastic foundation. First, what are the advantages of wood frame/plastic foundation instead of using one piece plastic and why is it better to build the frame around the foundation?

[BjornBee]

It looks like the stapler is permanently mounted. Doing the numbers they do, I would imagine they just found it to be more productive(faster) this way.

I like the wood frame/plastic foundation. I like the plastic fouindation for a number of reasons, but do not like the all plastic frames.

[BeeTeach]

Is this just preference Bjorn or do you see an advantange to the wood frames?

[BjornBee]

I prefer the feel of the wood frames. I have seen and used plastic frames and I think over time they bend, break, etc.

I also believe in comb rotation and other management practices that make wood frames compatible with foundation replacement, etc. It seems also to be the least costly choice for what I want out of a frame and foundation.

[Dan Williamson]

I've used the one-piece plastic frames/foundation. They work fine but I've found that they sometimes warp. I've also had problems with them when trying to move or manipulate a plastic frame in cold weather.

Wood does not have that problem.

I would stick with a wood frame and plastic foundation. Stronger and more durable. But they take time to assemble. Personally, I'd rather spend the time and have a stronger product.

[hrogers]

Howdy BeeTeach --

I also prefer the wood frames. I got about 2,000 Permacomb at a bargain. Many warped and ends of top bars broke. I just sawed out the comb portion to fit the frame. Much better.

Doc

[Michael Palmer]

>First, what are the advantages of wood frame/plastic foundation

I think all plastic frames/foundation are horrible. The in some way violate bee space...at least they always stick to the comb above and below them. Must be pryed apart just about every time. Not fun on your back, when there's lots of colonies to manage. Also, they're a ..tch to remove when the first frame in the box. When you remove a wooden frame with your hive tool, you pry, and the frame pops up. With plastic, it bends and deflects to the side. And then, after being so difficult...when you carry the super to the truck and stand the box on end...the plastic frames slide out of the box and across the truck. When you want to loosen them they stick, and when you want them to remain in place, they flop all over.

I so much prefer wood frames and wax foundation for my hive bodies. They make a better comb under most circumstances, and the foundation is drawn out on lighter flows.

[Joel]

We prefer Wood frames with black pierco foundation to make brood/eggs easy to see. As far as plastic frames go I use them in a pinch but the ears break off easy, they flex when being handled full of honey and going into the uncapper or being pryed out of a hive sometimes deforming cells. They are easy to clean and light as a feather if you haul hive around.

[Michael Bush]

>The in some way violate bee space...at least they always stick to the comb above and below them.

If you make wood frames with very thin top bars you will see the same effect even with proper bee space. It's the thicker wood top bars that prevent it. C.C. Miller made comments on this "back in the day".

[BeeTeach]

What is the advantage to building the frames around the foundation? I have heard of this practice before. They were using a fixture to ensure they were square and unless they are using wedge tops the snap in foundation would be no more secure in the frame than if it were popped in post the frame construction. I have been using the one piece for a few years now and have had no problems other than at times slower draw out than all wax. I am going to try to increase my number of colonies to more than 50 this year and would like to be sure that my frame purchase wil be a long term, good decision.

[Michael Palmer]

>What is the advantage to building the frames around the foundation?

I would say it was a bit quicker. If building the frame first, you perform that task, and place the built frames in a super...or in a pile on the floor. You have to pick it up again when installing the foundation. If you want an assembly line type operation, it looks like two employees, to me.
So, when assembling thousands of frames...the time savings would be substantial.

[Grant]

In my humble experience, my bees prefer wax foundation, hands down.

I like plastic foundation, especially the all plastic, one-piece stuff. I've not had any of the above mentioned problems.

So we compromise with a plastic foundation in a wood fame. My bees will accept the wood frame/plastic foundation better than the all plastic one-piece.

Not sure why.

One of my buddies has a mechanical uncapper. the one-piece plastic don't go through it so well. I still uncap by hand.

[Keith Jarrett]

In my experience, we redip our plastic foundation
in bees wax/lemon grass oil. Then we snap it into our wooden frames.The plastic coated foundation we buy always seems to be a little on the thin side(cheap).

Have any of you try the super cell frames? , they are a healthy frame, only can fit 9 in a ten frame box and has a wide end bar like the powers frame. Dont think these frames will twist like the others do.

Keith Jarrett

[BjornBee]

I think one should consider the cost factor in foundation and frames. And also consider the discussions taking place on other threads about some of the ongoing problems within the industry. (old comb, etc.)

At over 5 dollars per frame/foundation for the honeysupercell, I will stick with the lower cost options. If one is to consider the benefits of comb replacement, I think this higher cost inhibits this practice. Yes, the comb is plastic, but the coccoons that build up and are layered upon season after season should be considered.

The cost of most plastic foundaton and frames are in the resins and plastic compounds. I know the intial cost factor of bringing a new product has other asscoiated costs, but 5 dollars per frame seems excessive.

I can change/replace foundation in my wood frames for 6o to 90 cents a frame. Depending on what my choice is. One piece frame/foundation units are considerably higher. Seeing an investment in "longterm" views when it comes to foundation purchases, goes to the heart of some of the problems of hive deseases.

[Keith Jarrett]

Bjorn,

I would have to agree with you,

Last year I brought 20,000 wooden with plastic foundation frames @1.47.

I like to redip mine so they build faster.

But why couldn't a guy scrap off old comb and redip every so often ?
It at least seems possible.

Keith Jarrett

[BjornBee]

Keith, thats one of the advantages of plastic foundation. Scraping and (dipping) reusing. I just did not elaborate.

You could also pop out the foundation, place new/clean plastic foundation, and use the wax rendered to pay for it. Whether I get a good deal on plastic or wax (I have bought new boxes at sales for pennies on the dollar) the advantage of the wooden frames is the flexibility. And the lower cost of comb changeover if one chooses to do it.

I also will not treat if AFB were to be found. I know burning frames and comb at 1.47 is easier to swallow than better than 5 dollars per.

[BeeTeach]

Has/does anyone used Permadent and is this product a compromise between Permacomb and Pierco?

[Spigold]

Could you guys elborate on dipping plastic foundation? How hot is the wax? Do you dip just the foundation or the whole assembled frame? Does the extra wax obscure the foundation, do they have as many screw-ups with this method?

I have also found all plastic frame/foundation to warp and flex.

I use plastic with wood, and assemble the foundation into the frame when the bottom bar (last piece) goes on. I can average about 60 frames an hour this way.

No question about bees accepting and drawing beeswax foundation better than plastic. But the convience of plastic I feel outwieghs that one hang-up. The ability to scrape it off and have them re-start plastic is priceless.

I would also recommend black foundation. On fresh white foundation larvae and eggs are almost impossible to see.

[Spigold]

Could you guys elaborate on dipping plastic foundation? How hot is the wax? Do you dip just the foundation or the whole assembled frame? Does the extra wax obscure the foundation; do they have as many screw-ups with this method?

I have also found all plastic frame/foundation to warp and flex.

I use plastic with wood, and assemble the foundation into the frame when the bottom bar (last piece) goes on. I can average about 60 frames an hour this way.

No question about bees accepting and drawing beeswax foundation better than plastic. But the convince of plastic I feel outweighs that one hang-up. The ability to scrape it off and have them re-start plastic is priceless.

I would also recommend black foundation. On fresh white foundation larvae and eggs are almost impossible to see.

[Keith Jarrett]

Spigold,

I re-dip the whole frame, I have a small up-right tank, 6 inches taller than the frame height.

How hot, well I never measured the temp, you will get the hand of it after a few frames. Too cold and the wax is thick on the frame, too hot and the wax smokes and is very thin.
I only dip new frames and those that have been through the wax moth stage.

Keith Jarrett

[sierrabees]

I use a dipping tank with a water heater element. the outer tank is filled with water which I keep at a boil and the wax is melted on an inner tank. It's actually an old xray processing tank from one of my old pet hospitals where I upgraded to an automatic processor. I kept the old tank complete with two three inch wide dipping tanks for years until I realized it would make a fine frame dipping tank.

[ January 12, 2007, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: sierrabees ]