Building your own super,super deeps

[spunky]

Anyone experimented with a hivebody bigger than the old super deep ?? Say a 14 or 15 inch frame ? I know it will be heavy, but I am curious if anyone has found any benefits to a larger ,single central hive body ???

Takers ???

[peggjam]

I've experimented with longhives, which are longer, but take the standred deep frame. I found they were slow to expand the broodnest past 11 frames, which is the normal broodnest in 2 deeps. They would work it if I spread their frames out and forced them to. Anything different than standred should be in a vertical configuration, as I don't feel they like to work horizonally.

[Nick Noyes]

At one time we had over 600 of them. The bees grow rapidly in them and tend to swarm more and eat more. They would work pretty good if that is all you had but didn't fit very good in our operation. We try to run a standardized outfit so everything interchanges. They are also more work to manage do to the larger size. We still have about 40 of them if want to try something like this.

[peggjam]

Nick

What were the overall dimensions of these?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I built a 12 inch deep long hive, 22 frames long.

I used two medium PC that I welded together to get a 12 inch deep frame. The box has a screened bottom with sliding tray and slated boards between the screen and the frames. It also has an entrance at the far end from the bees and a top entrance which is the preferred one.

As James stated, mine did not like to expand horizontally. Come to think of it, they didn't like to expand vertically either. :( I got about one super of honey from the hive this year for the first time in three years. I will have to do something about this hive sometime. :rolleyes:

[BjornBee]

I could see something different like a TBH. You can build them cheap, monitor/experiment with natural comb, etc. But to build bigger boxes that would not fit the rest of my standard equipment, I see no point. But I guees that was the original question....(is there any benefits, etc.)

Bees I think favor a "chimney effect" with heat, and thus prefer a upward column for brood, being beneficial in the spring and brood buildup. I think that a larger box would not translate into more brood, stores, etc. In today's world of beekeeping with SHB and such, I would think that a tighter box, with cluster movement upward, filling and/or utilizing all the comb, would be the way to go.

[peggjam]

Bjorn

I don't like the idea of something that isn't "standred" either. It just seems sometimes that the bees fail to move within our current deep boxes, either up or down, to find fresh stores to feed on and then starve with honey within inches of the cluster. Maybe it is time to rethink our idea of what standred should be........although I have no idea what that would be....LOL. Working on it though.

[nsmith1957]

I am getting back into bees after 20+ yrs. Maybe a mistake, considering Vorroa and SHB which I didn't have to deal with back then.

My first 4 hives will have extra deep hive bodies. The frames are standard langstroth length and bodies will be standard langstroth length and width. The bodies and frames will be deeper (Body 18 3/4" and frame 18 3/8"). Each frame will hold two pieces of foundation (8 1/8" x 16 3/4"). I put a 3/8" x 1 1/8" spreader between the two pieces of foundation, this is to give the frame ends more strength when wiring.

I am not concerned with weight since these deeper bodies and frames, under normal conditions, will not be moved or handled, other than one frame at a time for inspecting. I am doing this based on what Walt Wright said in his article, "Evils of the double deep".

After the first four hives are complete and populated, any swarms/packages/splits will be hived in the configurations that Walt and Michael Bush now use, if I understand correctly, a top and bottom medium with a deep in the middle for Walt, and three mediums for MB.

Once I have about 4 hives of each configuration, then I can make comparisons on how well the bees do with each configuration.

All hive configurations will be 10 frame bodies and have SBB's, top entrance, and med supers. Any and all comments are welcome.

[ December 19, 2006, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: nsmith1957 ]

[Kieck]

I have given some thought to building a narrower, taller hive, so I'm interested to hear the comments here. Maybe something like the 8-frame equipment some of you like so well, but deeper -- like the 14 or 15 inch heights mentioned here. The weight might be about the same, but I can imagine some advantages for heat conservation and overwintering.

"My first 4 hives will have extra deep hive bodies. The frames are standard langstroth length and boxes will be standard langstroth length and width. The bodies and frames will be deeper (Body 18 3/4" and frame 18 3/8")." -Nsmith1957

What do you see as the advantage to this depth? Why use one really deep body instead of two deeps?

[nsmith1957]

What do you see as the advantage to this depth? Why use one really deep body instead of two deeps? As per Walt Wright, the bees don't seem to like crossing the beespace between the top of the frames,in the bottom body, and the bottom of the frames, in the top body during preparation for over wintering. They end up using either the top body or the bottom body to over winter in, rather than using both equally. The larger frames give room (comb) for the bees to store honey, pollen and raise brood on comb that has no beespace (break) in it.

From what I understand, one deep is not enough comb area for a queen to use efficiently in egg laying. The depth of frame I choose, will make the comb area of one large frame equal to two standard deep frames. ie same comb area as two deeps in one deeper hive body.

This may be too much comb, I don't know. If it appears that the bees are not using all (or most) of the comb in the larger frames, then I have designs for shortening the frames, using different depth foundation combinations to give continuous comb just a somewhat shorter depth.

My concern with this idea, will the bees cross the 3/8" area the spreader bar occupies, as continuous comb? I believe they will. I could be wrong, but that is what I will start with.

[Kieck]

I wondered, too, if one deeper comb might have an overwintering advantage over two separate combs of a total depth equal to the first.

I'll be interested to hear what you find out.

Are your winters in MS really that bad? I would have thought bees could overwinter pretty easily in a single deep there, but I'll admit that I know very little about the climate in your part of the country. Bees seem to make it through the winters pretty easily in two deeps in this part of the country, in my experience anyway.

Why not just leave the frames open and let the bees build their own comb? If you never extract from it, you won't really need to worry about its strength, that would save you the cost of the foundation, and you wouldn't have that 3/8" spreader bar in the middle.

[Mike Gillmore]

> I am getting back into bees after 20+ yrs. Maybe a mistake, considering Vorroa and SHB which I didn't have to deal with back then.

Welcome back. It's not a mistake, just more of a challenge. smile.gif

Back in 1987 beekeeping was a cake walk compared to todays obstacles. After a 16 year break I got back into it and found it to be a completely different hobby. But these new pests are not all bad... they force you to study harder, and you end up being a much more enlightened "beekeeper" rather than a honey robber.

[fat/beeman]

hello
I have switched frome the standard 10 frame hives yrs. ago to the 8 frame hives. I found them to be easy to work and less weight on the back bees seem to make more hone too. as far as thr real deep frames I see no advantage to them. also you should think about resale of what you make. keeping it all standard sizes helps in resale.
Don smile.gif

[nsmith1957]

Are your winters in MS really that bad? I would have thought bees could overwinter pretty easily in a single deep there....The winters here are generally very mild as compared to were you are. They probably could overwinter here fine in a single. I am more concerned with how fast they build up in the spring. One deep is not enough for that. I don't know if the beespace between deeps would have a limiting factor on the queens efficency in laying. I feel that it would have some effect (maybe minor). I will not be moving the hives and want as many bees as possiable, in the hives, coming out of winter. With this in mind, I want to give the bees every chance I can for large numbers in the hives, at the start of spring, the middle to end of March.



Bees seem to make it through the winters pretty easily in two deeps in this part of the country, The colony may survive, but will it be as strong as it could be? Or could some colonies, which died, have survived (being stronger) if they didn't have the beespace barrier to contend with? I have to agree with peggjam........

"It just seems sometimes that the bees fail to move within our current deep boxes, either up or down, to find fresh stores to feed on and then starve with honey within inches of the cluster. Maybe it is time to rethink our idea of what standred should be........"

Will the larger frames help the bees any? Don't know, thats the reason to experiment with it. This is not a new idea, I think it was Brother Adam that determined the old Jumbo frame was closer to the size the bee's needed. I think he was also using a body that held more than 10 frames.



Why not just leave the frames open and let the bees build their own comb? If you never extract from it, you won't really need to worry about its strength, that would save you the cost of the foundation, and you wouldn't have that 3/8" spreader bar in the middle. The large frames are pretty flimsy without the spreader bar and wiring. It would be near impossiable to keep them square without them. Being so weak and fully loaded with bees, pollen, honey, and brood, I wouldn't guarantee they wouldn't come apart on the first removal from hive.

When wiring them up, I put in wire cross bracing, which makes an "X" thru each sheet of foundation. I pull the frame square with this cross bracing. Then lay in the foundation on top of the "X" bracing. I then put in the normal horizontal wires for foundation support on top of this. This sandwiches the foundation sheet between "X" brace wiring and foundation support wiring. With all wiring tight and melted into the foundation sheet, it makes for a strong frame and tight foundation. Should hold up to many removals (inspections) from hive. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that.

[nsmith1957]

also you should think about resale of what you make. keeping it all standard sizes helps in resale.
Not really concerned with that, the only nonstandard will be the extra deep frames and bodies. Can always cut the bodies down to another size. Being concerned with resale value, is implying that one would be easily defeated by the "challenges" of the beekeeping environment of today. With my temperment, so my wife says, I will come out of this with two black eyes before I give up. :(

[ December 19, 2006, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: nsmith1957 ]

[dcross]

Why not just use a regular deep and put an empty box underneath it? Glue some dowels to the end bars of the frames so they don't attach comb to the walls...

[Dave W]

Another BeeSource member is using 2 standard deeps as ONE chamber (nothing special, I like that) and I made him some looong frame side bars (18"+) that fit Kelley top and bottom bars.

All he has invested in are custom side bars.

I made another member special side bars (w/ tops and bottoms) that were 1/2" thick.

I'll bet they dont bow when wired smile.gif

[Kieck]

I've wondered about doing the same (two deeps as one chamber). Nothing special required, and it's really little different from building one tall body. Only you can take them apart if you wish.

The drawback I saw was trying to reverse hive bodies, if I wanted.

I wouldn't worry much about bowing of the side bars if the frames are left open for the bees to build their own comb (no foundation). Bowing of the bottom bar, maybe, but the forces on the side bars will be mostly vertical, I imagine. Gluing and nailing the frames makes them pretty solid, in my experience, so I wouldn't worry about them getting pulled out of square, either.

Or else, have Dave W build you some special frames from thicker stock.

[nsmith1957]

The drawback I saw was trying to reverse hive bodies, if I wanted.
Having to reverse hive bodies, from what I understand, is due to the bees overwintering in or brood nest in the top deep of a 2 deep configuration. They seem to want to go up. In 2 deeps, with the brood in the top deep, there is nowhere to go UP. The beespace between the two deeps causes them problems. In a single body, with extra deep frames, reversing should not be neccessary. There will be no break in the comb to confuse them or cause them problems. They should always see the larger hive body and frames as THE brood nest.

[Kieck]

True enough, I suppose. What if the cluster overwinters at the top of the extra-deep frames? Will they move up into supers if/when supers are added, unless queen excluders are used?

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from trying these sorts of configurations. Experiments like these lead to improvements. I'd like to hear what you find out. Please keep us posted.

At the same time, I have to imagine that we're not the first people to think of some of these ideas. Brother Adam has already been cited on this thread; why not just build to the specs of the old Dadant Jumbos? Along the same lines, why do you suppose Langstroth settled on the size and shape he did?

[nsmith1957]

Brother Adam has already been cited on this thread; why not just build to the specs of the old Dadant Jumbos? Brother Adam's hive bodies where configured to hold 12 Dadant Jumbo frames. To build to his specs, almost everything would have to be built custom. I would like to stay with a body foot print that is compatible with current "10 frame standard" body foot prints, while giving near the same comb area for the queen to lay in.


....why do you suppose Langstroth settled on the size and shape he did? The "standard" hives we use today where not designed by Langstroth. They are modifications of his design, yet maintaining the 1/4" to 3/8" beespace the he discovered.

[nsmith1957]

My opinion, and others, is that the current standard is based more on what is economically better and easier for the human handling the hives. smile.gif

Not neccessarilly what is best for the bees. :(

[Drone On]

Greetings,
I am also going to try using some extra long frames after discussing how feral bees run their shop in a bee tree with Walt Wright. If Walt is right then the bees should stay in the center of these frames with movement up and down on them as the season dictates. They will not want to separate the brood nest with a frame break, so I doubt that they will leave the frames until the big build up. I tried extra wide hives and the bees stayed in the center frames and just kept going up as our spring temperatures are cool and they used the rising heat to keep the brood warm. Might work better in a climate that heats up quickly in the spring.

[JWG]

A couple notes on the larger brood frames:

Historically in North America there were two large brood frame designs, the Dadant and the Langstroth Jumbo. There is no "Dadant Jumbo."

The standard Dadant brood frame (like the one used by Br. Adam) has the dimensions 17 5/8 * 11 1/4 inches. There are 11 of these in the Modified Dadant hive, and 12 in the Buckfast Dadant hive. The frames are spaced wider than Langstroth, on 1 1/2" centers (an important difference).

The Langstroth brood frame is 17 5/8 * 9 1/8 in. Normally used in an 8 or 10 frame configuration. (One of the reasons why the 10 fr. hive became popular is because the 8-fr. had a tendency to tip over.) Frame spacing is 1 3/8" center to center.

The Langstroth Jumbo brood frame is deeper, at 11 1/4", making it similar to the Dadant brood frame, but it retains the narrower spacing.

In Britain, many users of National Hives have gone to a 3 1/2 inch-deeper version of the British Standard brood frame, at 14 x 12 in. to allow for a larger continuous brood comb area. This would be analogous to the Jumbo Langstroth frame.

20 years ago you could still get Lang. Jumbo frames and bodies from at least one supplier in Quebec but now they aren't in the North American catalogs anymore that I know of.

[Mike Gillmore]

This sounds like a very natural, bee friendly set up. But it could end up being a beekeepers nightmare.

For example, in the spring flow. If the bees form a band of capped honey across the tops of all of the deep frames, refuse to move nectar into the supers above and start to backfill the deep frames, how would you "open up" the brood nest?

[peggjam]

"For example, in the spring flow. If the bees form a band of capped honey across the tops of all of the deep frames, refuse to move nectar into the supers above and start to backfill the deep frames, how would you "open up" the brood nest?"

I'd guess that a split would be in order, as they'll swarm anyways.

[Mike Gillmore]

> I'd guess that a split would be in order, as they'll swarm anyways.

Exactly. And that's where I see a real problem. There is very little manipulation of frames that could be performed with this kind of set up to ward off swarming conditions. That's fine if you are looking for splits, but not so good if you want to keep the unit together for maximum honey yield. The bees are more free to act as they would in the wild ...to swarm... but there is a limited opportunity for the beekeeper to interfere and delay swarm prepatation.

[peggjam]

I don't know...one could always recombine the split after swarming season. I see what you mean though, as you would proably not want a two box broodnest of this size....I always want splits though, i'm not into this whole honey production thing.....would rather raise and sell bees, as to mess with honey. Guess you could say the honey is just a byproduct of my other efforts..LOL.

[nsmith1957]

....in the spring flow. If the bees form a band of capped honey across the tops of all of the deep frames, refuse to move nectar into the supers above and start to backfill the deep frames, how would you "open up" the brood nest? From what I understand, at this time, of Walt Wright's "Nectar Management" the condition above describes a colony near the end of swarm preparations and almost ready to swarm.

Following "Nectar Management" techniques, one or more supers (depending on super size) of drawn comb should have been added 4 to 6 weeks prior to this observation. If added early enough, this would allow these added supers to be part of the "working level" of bees. According to Walt, any empty cells within the "working level" will be filled with nectar, as a high priority "need".

These supers can then be manipulated as outlined in "Nectar Management" to keep the "need" high. Walt at one time called this manipulation "Checkerboarding".

The supers, for my area, would be added around mid Feb, maybe a little latter. Putting them on early is better than putting them on late.

If the above described condition was found, the only recourse I see, with an extra deep brood chamber, would be to do a split, to open up the honey to the above supers. The best action to take would be to add supers several weeks before the bees start backfilling the brood chamber. Otherwise, they are probably going to swarm.

[Mike Gillmore]

Sometimes the colony will start to form this band at the top of the brood area even when there are empty supers above. That is the intention of "checkerboarding", to open up that band and let the bees start to work up.

If this band is at the top of the double deep modified single brood box then there is no way that you could checkerboard without taking out entire frames.. honey, brood, and all.

[nsmith1957]

Sometimes the colony will start to form this band at the top of the brood area even when there are empty supers above. According to Walt, some honey at the top of the brood nest is ok, it becomes a problem in swarm prevention when the amount is equal to or greater than what the bees want to keep as emergency reserve. It will take a couple of weeks for the bees to "become aware" of the added supers and start using them. That is why they must be added early enough to change the course of action the bees are taking. ie Swarm preparations.

[peggjam]

We would have to add them in early April here. I agree with Mike though, it would be hard to manipulate the frames to prevent swarming if you were delayed getting supers on for some reason or another.

[nsmith1957]

....it would be hard to manipulate the frames to prevent swarming if you were delayed getting supers on for some reason or another. If you don't get the supers on in time, it will cause problems.

With an extra deep brood chamber setup we are trying to eliminate any problems, for the bees and queen, associated with the break in frames between hive bodies, as you have with a double deep configuration. Reversing hive bodies, changing frames in the top body, and checkerboarding are the current methods of swarm prevention. Walt does not like reversing, due to it throws the bees into a confused state, as to where all of its stores are located and retards buildup for a couple of weeks. I would assume changing frames out would have a lesser, but similar effect on the bees. Checkerboarding will not be changed.

Look at the extra deep brood chamber as the bottom hive body only, in a normal 2 deep configuration. That is what you will over winter in. Many beeks over winter in a single deep anyway only this bottom body will be deeper. Sometime in late winter, most that over winter in a single deep will add another deep for increased brood raising area. This step would be skipped with the extra deep. In the extra deep the bees should have enough room in raising their brood.

Whatever configuration, single or double deep, you come out of winter with, but prior to spring buildup, you must add supers. Otherwise you will have the same situation for swarming as MG's example. But reversing bodies and changing frames to open up the brood chamber retards buildup, to varing degrees.

Overwinter in the extra deep body, then add supers at the proper time or a little early. Checkerboard as usual.

The only problem, is not getting the supers on in time. If you are late with supers on the double deep configuration, you will have the same problem, if you don't reverse or change out frames which retard build up.

How well will this work? Nobody, that I am aware of, has done it this way, only time will tell.

[balhanapi]

Hi guys,
Can we add a couple of empty (or foundation) frames to open up the brood nest? i.e frames of the same depth? and add an empty super ontop? Would that be adequate manipulation to prevent swarming at the same time be of little disturbance/retardation in spring bulid-up? I am very interested in this deep brood chamber myself.
nsmith1957 Do keep us posted how it goes:)

[Joel]

We often plunge a frame of foundation into the middle of an overcrowed hive as an overall management practice to hopefully discourage swarming. We intentionally try to seperate brood frames when we do this.

[Mike Gillmore]

> "Can we add a couple of empty (or foundation) frames to open up the brood nest? "

That you may need to do one at a time... each frame you replace will be comparable to removing two frames from a 2 deep hive set up. I would guess that adding supers and removing the longer deep frames one at a time should keep swarming in check.

[odfrank]

I already have problems with honey bound hives due to the winter eucalyptus flow we have here. Double brood chambers, no problem, just extract those combs. My 11 1/4" frames, I can extract two at a time in my handcrank, a nuisance however. Now I am making my two hives with 17 3/4" frames, and what the hell will I do with those when most of it is honey? Maybe I should use thin foundation in the outer frames so that it can become cut comb if not laid in? Will be hard to make sturdy so it doesn't collapse as it is drawn out. Or, glue together cobana frames to a good depth? How deep is a cobana frame? I will have to check. Oh, length spacing problems with that idea also. Hmmm....What a conumdrum I have gotten into. And don't say build a giant extrator....