frame staple gun

[riverrat]

I am getting ready to buy a stapel or nail gun to assymble frames. does anyone have any advise on what to buy

[BjornBee]

I have several types. But the one I use most is a Porter Cable brad nailer for frames. It holds from 5/8" to 1-1/4" brad nails, 18 gauge. I have used staples and small nail guns and they worked fine, but for the wieght of use, the cost of the nails, and just for no other reason to mention, I end up using my brad nailer the most.

I know a better fastener can be had with staples, etc., but with glueing the ends, the brad nailer is more than sufficient. (Two nails per end)

Harbor frieght (they have a website), has some very inexpensive brad nailers on sale at the moment. You usually get what you pay for when it come to tools, but unless your doing thousands and thousands of frames, a cheap nailer will work fine.

[greenbeekeeping]

I have used serveral staplers while I was still assembling frames. Both were Senco narrow crown staplers shooting I think 1 1/4 inch staples. They work good. Senco makes a good gun the two I have at home are older than dirt. Haha. They were my dads from his days as a mobile home warranty repair man. We use senco's at the cabinet shop were I work also.

[Sundance]

I too run a Senco crown stapler with 1 1/4"
staples. They work well in conjunction with
a good glue like Gorilla or Titebond III

[power napper]

Been using the harbor freight brad gun--works well and also use good glue. Just got a bostitch narrow crown stapler and can not wait to see the comparison.

[honeyman46408]

I use a Craftsman 1/4" crown stapler ( that I had before bees) with 3/4" staples no glue WORKS

[Sundance]

Ed....... I recommend you reconsider using
glue. Especially for super frames. Very cheap
insurance and very little extra time.

[BerkeyDavid]

I use a cheap crown stapler, uses 5/8 inch up to 1 3/4 I think. WOrks good, I oil it before each use. Agree use the GLUE!

I buy Titebond II glue by the gallon, pour some in a throw away styrofoam bowl and use cheap throw away glue brushes.

[Jeffzhear]

Wow, that was a great tip! Buy the glue by the gallon, use throw away glue brushes and containers....sometimes stating the obvious really does help some of us! lol

[Sundance]

The brush idea is a good one. I have been
buying Titebond III and transferring it to
a 4 ounce glue bottle.

But, I have stopped using wood frames for
the most part and use Pierco, and HSC.

[BerkeyDavid]

Here is the best source for glue brushes (and also quality brushes of any type)
Solo Brushes (https://www.solobrushes.com/Family.asp?FamilyID=162&Cat1ID=11)

Prices for the brushes I buy from them (technically called acid brushes) start at $9.40 per gross (144). That boils down to 7 cents a brush, so you don't feel so guilty throwing them away! smile.gif

Of course there is shipping involved, but heck with the price of gas... Also you can buy whatever other brushes you think you might need and combine in one order. I buy several sizes (widths) of the glue brushes.

[GaSteve]

I use the cheap Harbor Freight brad nailers. You can buy at least of four for the price of a "good" one. I'm still on my first one -- but I don't do thousands of frames either. The hardest part is adjusting the air pressure down far enough so you don't shoot brads all the way through the wood. But once it's set, it's a huge time saver. I also use glue.

[BjornBee]

Sundance,
I would think about frame cost with full plastic frames and plastic drawn comb. I know not alot do it, but I still believe that rotation of the comb is vital for hive health. Even if you do not use chemicals. The buildup of bateria, virus vectors, and secondary deseases can be avoided or ay least dimished by rotation of the comb every so many years. At the cost of full drawn combs, I will pass, to leave open the availability of changing out comb, with a fraction of the cost.

If not for the cost of foundation replacement, I think more would do it. Getting more expensive drawn comb seems like going in the other direction.

I like pierco plastic in my wood frames. I can scrap down and if need be, use the wax to help offset the cost of new foundation by selling it, etc. I can't scrape the drawn plastic at all.

What are your advantages for frames and drawn comb that make it worth the added cost? Or are you using the drawn plastic for supers and using pierco plastic drawn out by the bees for the brood chamber? That would make sense.

[Sundance]

No Bjorn...... I am going with the plastic
un-drawn for the majority, Pierco for the most
of that.

I am shooting for small cell brood boxes and
a couple Pierco's at the edges.

I am hoping that periodic power washing would
keep the brood nest comb sanitary. Hope that's
not wrong.

Good points and thoughts.

[JC]

Thanks for the information on a source for the glue brushes. I have trouble finding the glue brushes; therefore, every time I find the brushes I buy all the brushes in stock!

Titebond says that there must be between 3/1000” and 5/1000” space for their glue to work. Therefore, when I use clamps I stop applying pressure when about 1/8” of glue squirts out of the glue joint. The glue will not work if you clamp the joint too tight. The best glue joint is from long grain to long grain; however, we do not have a choice on beekeeping equipment. By the way, do not keep your glue outside in freezing weather. I lost over a gallon of Titebond 2 when the temperature outside dropped below freezing.

I am sticking with Titebond 2 glue until someone can convince me to switch to Titebond 3. Titebond 3 costs more, but the setup time is faster. However, a faster setup time is a disadvantage when gluing a large project. Both glues are waterproof.

[Sundance]

"By the way, do not keep your glue outside in freezing weather."

Wild that this came up. Just 3 days about I
discovered that I'd left my quart jug of
Titebond III outside and it had frozen solid
after being subjected to below zero temps.

I tossed it in the garbage can. Later I
looked hard at it, retrieved it, and shook
if vigorously.

I ran a test joining 2 pieces of wood together
"clamped" loosely with rubber bands.

Result:

After being hard frozen for weeks the bond
was still extremely good. The wood failed
before the bond broke.

I'm not sure if that would be true with
Titebond II though.

[BerkeyDavid]

I use Tite bond II. There was a test in one of my woodworking mags last year and that was better than titebond III.

GOrilla glue is probably better but it is more expensive and I believe requires you to wet the wood first.

I do a good bit of woodworking and really like the Titebond II.

If you wanted super strength you could go with epoxy, but the Tite bond II and staples is as strong as the wood, so as long as you have exceeded the strength of the wood anything else is overkill.

If you want to find out make up some frames with just staples and some with staples and glue. Let the glue cure. Then stress them until they break. Examine the point of failure.

[Bob Nelson]

An effective alternative to glue and not mentioned yet is a staple in the face of the end bar and into the top bar. There is about as much area to hit as the conventional point in top bar. For obvious reasons this does not work on the wedge side of a wedged top bar.

I usually use 2 staples through the top bar and one through the end bar. I also have quite a few with one in the top bar and 1 in the end bar (opposite of the one in the top) which hold fine. This takes a little more time but no more than or maybe less than applying the glue. I think it is equally as effective at prevention of the top bar pulling apart from the end bar.

I have seen frames only stapled or nailed in this fashion which have held for years. I that case there were usually 2 nails or staples through the end bar and none through top bar.

Incidentally I have 2 Senco staplers. Bought both used for the price of 1 new. Very happy with the small one already referred to above several times for frames. Also have one which shoots 1/2 crowns for supers, etc. I staple only the inner joints and use a nail or screw on the outside (top and bottom if you will) as the staples do not hold here. Bob Nelson

[ December 10, 2006, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: Bob Nelson ]

[honeyman46408]

Sundance
You can not pull one of my frames apart after I staple them, not with out breaking it


Dont need no stinking glue ;)

[ December 10, 2006, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: honeyman46408 ]

[BjornBee]

Ed, sounds like a challenge. How about dropping off a few, er....a few dozen, next time you swing through, so I can do some testing. And remember the bigger the sample size, the better the stats.

Ed, last year....How did you find it best to clean the queen excluders?

[honeyman46408]

BjornBee

I soaked them in laquor thinner and then power washed them, look almost new :cool:

[BjornBee]

Ed,
I was going through that pile to see what I had possibly for peggjam, and realized I haven't touched them since you visited. Reason being....too lazy to clean them. The thinner sounds about right for me.

[tecumseh]

bob nelson adds:
An effective alternative to glue and not mentioned yet is a staple in the face of the end bar and into the top bar.

tecumseh replies:
this is the 'old school' method prior to the advent of modern 'high-tech' glues.

for frame constuction I use one of those dual pin nailer-staplers from harbor freight. I shoot one 1 and 1/4" staple in the top bar (into the top of the end bar) and one thru the end bar (into the end of the top bar). for thin top bars instead of staples I use 5/8" pin nail which I shoot thru the ears of the end bar.

[rainesridgefarm]

On the glue topic, I have been gluing my boxes then nailing them. The next day boiling in parrafin. Does anyone know what happens to the glue in the joint? I do not see any of the glue that leaked on the outside left. I have not tried to pull one apart but would love to hear.

[John F]

Quite a bit about glues.

I also do some woodworking and use titebond II almost exclusively.

But the properties of glue are such that there is no clear choice.

Titebond II is a PVA (Polyvinyl acetate) glue. Gorilla glue and titebond III are polyurathane glues.

Strength wise, the polyurathane wins but with a margin that isn't really a practical concern.

PVA glue is easy to clean up (when still wet) with water. PVA glue can be reset with heat for a period after first glueup; white being a long period (sometimes indefinately) and yellow a shorter (a least a week or two, maybe longer) period. PVA joints will creep so if I were doing a table top glueup that will eventually have a hard glossy finish I would not use PVA glue.

The urathane glues do not move into the pores of the wood and do not have an effect on the staining of wood that PVA may have. They are tougher to cleanup and if you get it on your clothes it will ruin them. They are less affected by heat and will not creep. They all foam to an extent and if you do not firmly clamp the joint the setup can move the joint.

So, generally I use titebond II for everything unless I see a reason not to. For frames I use titebond II and brads. The brads are just to clamp the joints until the glue sets. After that, the frame would be just as strong without the brads.

rainsridgefarm, if I were going to glue a joint that I knew was going to be subjected to high heat I would look at using one of the urathane glues.

[Hillside]

"if you get it on your clothes it will ruin them."

Ruined? Your clothes won't be ruined, they just get kinda stiff, ya know? I've got several shirts like that.

I also like the way my fingertips get shiney and hard. Gorilla glue is real fun. I should read the label some time. Maybe I'm supposed to wear gloves or something.

[honeyman46408]

"Ed,
I was going through that pile to see what I had possibly for peggjam, and realized I haven't touched them since you visited. Reason being....too lazy to clean them. The thinner sounds about right for me."

BjornBee

You warned me that you were not sure of where the excluders came from and didnt know if they could have FB so I think if it sould live through the thinner no use trying to get rid of it. I have a Stainless Steel pan that will hold 4 or 5 excluders so I let the (soak) over night or several hours and the thinner melts wax and propolas and the cold power washer does the trick.

[Michael Bush]

I have a 1/4" crown stapler that takes from 5/8" to 1 1/2" staples. I use the 1" for frames. I use Titebond II or the elmer's exterior carpenters glue.

[Dave W]

I use a Senco pinner w/ a 5/8" nail.
Exterior grade glue and cross-nailing makes a strong frame.