heating hives

[brent.roberts]

Today we have snow on the ground with outside temps of -2C and it has been cold for a couple of days. I took my digital thermometers to the bee yard to measure the inside temperatures.

My hives are all Beemax polystyrene. They are 2 or 3 supers. Each then has a polystyrene cover with
- 2 vent holes about 25mm diam
- one feeding hole about 25mm diam with syrup feeder.
- one square feed hole about 100mm x 80mm for patties on top of the screen.

Above this cover is a medium super, then a normal top cover of polystrene.

I put the temperature probe into the hive by inserting it through the patty feed hole and in some cases also through the vent hole.

Here is what I found

Hive 1 - has no heat bees are high in super and the temp was 85F

Hive 2 - same as have 1

Hive 3 - no heat, no bees could be seen 67F

Hive 4 - heated the cluster was under the patty feeder so the temp probe was in the cluster 100C This alarmed me so I also tested also in one corner through the vent hole where there were no bees, 49F OK I think.

Hive 5 - heated, no bees visible 75F

Hive 6 - heated, no bees visible, 64F

Hive 7 - heated, first reading 50F then bees started to move to the temperature probe, likely to repel the invader, and the temp slowly rose to 65F and was still going up when I moved to the next hive.

Hive 8 - heated 78F A few bees near the probe.

Hive 9 - 60F no bees visible.

The heaters are 15W terrerium heaters placed on the slide out mite count tray below the screen.

I think a great deal of heat is being lost because the heater is on the plastic tray at the bottom of the hive. I have no experience other than last year with the big population in a wooden hive the was very will insulated. Almost every test I did all winter resulted in temperatures of about 100F. Only when it got to
-5F outside did the temp go down an then it was about 55-60F inside. The colony was quite strong going into the winter and had at least doubled by the spring. I had fed patties starting in late February.

I am not worried much about these temperatures but I was at first startled with 100F in hive 4 then I saw that the cluster was right under the hole and totally surrounding the temp probe.

What do you think ? Have I created a problem

[sqkcrk]

Do these heaters shut off at a certain temp? A some temp, it seems to me, the bees will want to vent some of the excess heat out of the hive.

Why do you think that you need to heat the hive. Bees have been keeping themselves warm enough to survive for centuries. Usually they don't die from cold as much as from other reasons. Such as condensation, disease, mites and stress.

What do your fellow/local beekeepers do?

Lots of luck.

[tony350i]

All the time the bees have got stores to feed themselves and the brood it might be a good way going into spring with a big hive population to split or if swarming was checked, you could get a good early flow stored in the supers

>What do you think? Have I created a problem?

If ventilation etc is all in hand the only problems I can see is cleansing flights and mite breeding


It is not something I could try, as there is no power source where I keep my bees.

I am interested in how it turns out, good luck

Tony

[ December 04, 2006, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: tony350i ]

[Joel]

Some warmth would be good if you are running just a couple of hives and interested in boosting survival of smaller clusters and boosting spring population. Adequate stores would be a concern as well as potentially increased condensation from warm air in the hive causing condensation on cold hive bodies and lids. I would be concerned at what outside temperature the inside ambient air temperature would rise above 60 degrees as the cluster would break and potentially field workers would head out into cold temps to work and not return weakening the hive.

[magnet-man]

What I think everyone is missing is Brent is really up north with long hard winters. I do see a couple of problems with heating the hives though.
1. You don’t want to heat the hive too much or food consumption will increase.
2. If the food consumption increases then the bees need cleansing flight and that might be a problem. We all know what happens when they can’t go out.

What might be an idea solution is an inexpensive thermostat located inside of the hive. The inside temperature could be kept from dropping below 50-55 degrees. I seem to remember reading that this was a good temperature to keep a cluster without consumption of too much stores.

I think the real benefit of heating would come as spring approached. One could get a few weeks jump on brood production. Once cleansing flights were possible one could really turn up the heat.

It might make an interesting experiment and article in Beeculture.

[brent.roberts]

Last year in the wooden hive I had the hive only inuslated and got much too much condensation. This I had condensation until I put the heaters in.

The only local guy I know lost 11 of 15 hives 3 years ago over winter. He figures mostly due to mites. I had a pretty bad dose of them this fall and treated them with OA, but I think a pretty large number of them have been weakened by the mites before I treated. So I figure they need everything going for them possible.

Some of the colonies are low on population and will not form a very big cluster.

I have been corresponing with Finman and it is more common over there to have some small heat through the winter and bigger heaters in the later winter/early spring to kick start brood rearing. He claims it triples the size of his spring brood and catches the early flow big league.

I'll give the thermostat idea some further thought. I don't mind them getting cold. From what I've read it is not the cold that kills so much as starving because they are too cold to move to food. So I want this rig to be able to turn it on if we get a prolonged cold snap. Only 6 of 9 hives have the heaters now and as it gets colder I will continue to monitor and may unplug sometimes or add to the last 3 depending on what happens.

Last winter the insulated hive was so warm they feed from a Beeworks Rapid Feeder almost all winter and the cleansing flights on sunny days proved to be too much for many. Lots went out 20 feet and hit the snow and never made it back. Local folks say this is normal around here and not to worry about losing a few hundred bees this way. But then last year's hive was robust before winter. I have some weak ones this year that I think will need the help.

Some of the weaker hives are also light on stores.
I am considering taking out the first inner cover and putting the Rapid Feeder directly in the top bars so it will be as warm as the rest of the colony. That was they way it worked so well last year.

I got censored off a small local forum last year for even suggesting this type of approach. I worked great ONCE ... last year. This year more is at stake.

Thanks for the comments all.

[magnet-man]

Brent it is amazing what may cross the line into beekeepers heresy. Not even allowed to talk about it. Reminds me of the time I mentioned trying Oxalic Acid at the local beekeeping meeting. President put in a big article in the next news letter condemning me, not by name, about spreading information about unapproved mite treatment.

Two years ago I used a heating pad inside one of my hives as an experiment. It was an after thought so I didn’t really have good notes on how strong each hive was going into winter. It seemed to work OK.

What are you running the resistors on? AC or DC current?

As far as an inexpensive thermostat one could be made with an operational amplifier and thermistor combination. These would be accurate within a few degrees and cost less than five dollars.

It would be interesting for Finman to explain and give some links about what is used accross the pond.

[ December 04, 2006, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]

[magnet-man]

Here are the patents for heating beehives.
http://www.honeymoonapiaries.com/web_beekeeping/sys/Report12.htm

Patent 03994034 is the most relevant.

Patent 00702833 is likely the easiest and cheapest to make.

[ December 04, 2006, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]

[brent.roberts]

not doing this commercially I don't thing the patents will bother my.

Finman also used a terrarium heater but a style not available here. His is a simple long resistive cable that has low output and he loops enough into each hive to give him about 3 watts. He removes two or three frames and simply loops them in the empty space.
Here is a link to a photo of what he did.
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/tiny.jpg

This cable is long enough to run through several hives. A similar product is available in Canada and the USA for melting snow and ice of eaves and rain gutters. The power is similar and available in lengths of 100 to 300 feet.
See http://www.morelectric.com/easyheat.htm

What I got is a flat flexible resistive panel that would normally glue to the bottom glass of a terrarium, made by Hagen.
See http://www.hagen.com/canada/english/reptiles/product.cfm?CAT=31&SUBCAT=3106&PROD_ID=03020350010101

This is about 11" square and maybe 1/8" thick.

The current draw is minute. I calculate at 6 cents per KWH it will cost about $ 3.25 per hive for the winter. If that gets 5 lbs more honey in the early spring flow the power is paid for.

Finman has been replying to me promptly. I hope he'll join us here. He's been doing it for several years.

[magnet-man]

I posted the patents so everyone could see what was done in the past. The cable seems like a really good idea.

[sierrabees]

I've tried using an infrared heat lamp directed into a tent under the SBB. The hive I used this on did well. I heard or read somewhere that bees don't see red very well so I figured this wouldn't disrupt their photo period. Just another one of the silly projects I start during the winter because I don't feel like doing more productive stuff that needs doing, like cleaning, repairing,and repainting my old boxes.

[Michael Bush]

Finman's terrarium heater works the best I've seen.

[db_land]

I made a SBB insert with coiled water pipe heater cable. It only heats if the ambient temperature drops below about 32F. I used this to help a small cluster through the winter last year (although the winter was so mild they probably didn't need it).

This winter I'm experimenting with heating just the bucket of sugar syrup - trying to keep it a constant 80F using a submersible aquarium heater. The bucket will sit about 1/4" above the brood frames where the cluster is located. The constant temp should (I hope) keep it from dripping too much. I know bees like warm syrup. Maybe they will be ready to make some maple honey in Feb/Mar? :cool:

[ozzy]

Your discussion and ideas are interesting but I think you should run a comparison by properly wrapping an equal number of colonies and let us know which does better. I have a commercial beekeeper in my area that seldom loses a colony because he has learned how to wrap them properly for winter. (learned the hard way in Canada he said) I will admit that they are rather weak in spring but he seldom gives them what I would consider nearly enough honey to winter on. In fact I am amazed that they survive at all on what little honey they appear to have when I inspect them in the fall.
I like the idea of heating although it is unrealistic for most locations. If you are going to heat you should consider where you heat the hive. I have kept bees for 30 years north of Chicago and learned early on that moisture is usually what killed wintering bees. As moisture laden air hits a cold inner cover it condenses and rains back down on the cluster =dead colony. By placing your heat source on or above the inner cover you could probably eliminate the condensation problem. Since most yards aren't near a source of power you should also run a comparison test using an insulated inner cover or insulate extremely well above the outer cover.
I have been wintering successfully standard two deep colonies for years and more recently 5frame nucs(3 deep). My nucs last year came through so strong I split them on April 20th and all standard colonies were split on April 15th. I make them into two queen colonies that are so strong by the time of Locust bloom that I have a 140 lb avg by early June.
For what its worth, here is what I consider the essentials for wintering so you have strong colonies very early in the spring.
1. extract by mid August so you can treat those colonies that show high mite numbers.
2. feed two gallons of sugar syrup with fumidil to control Nosema.
3. feed colonies that are light so they have plenty of stores and do this early so they can reduce the moisture content and cap the frames. Any cells that are not capped will absorb moisture and ferment before the bees can use it.
4. Insulate the top of the colony and provide an upper entrance for the moisture to escape and the bees to fly out for cleansing flights. I make an insulated cover with a 3/4 to 1" space above the frames so the bees can cluster there when it is really cold. When you lift the inner cover in cold weather it looks like a thick pancake of solid bees above the top bars and I am sure the cluster extends down into the frames as well. I use a rigid foam with an aluminum foil face that will reflect radient heat back into the cluster.
5. Provide a bottom board with at least some screening material so that moisture cannot remain on the bottom and air can circulate up through the hive and out. My weakest colonies last spring were the ones with solid bottom boards that didn't drain well.
6. Provide a dead air space below the hive by placing it on a stand that blocks most of the wind.
7. Provide a secure metal entrance reducer so that not even a racoon can pull it off and allow mice to have access to the hive.
8. One of the most important things is the location of the apiary.
-Hives should be facing south so they receive good sunlight on the entrance during bright winter days.
-The apiary should be protected from winds from all directions except South. I try to find a location that is tucked into the south edge of a woods but still protected from East or West winds by the woods. Use snow fences where needed to slow the wind down around the hives.
-Locate the apiary not at the top of the hill or bottom of the ravine but most of the way down the hill. Low areas don't have good air drainage and remain colder and more damp than areas slightly higher up the hill.
-Wrap at least the front of each hive with 30lb roofing felt to heat the front of the hive during sunny days. Sun on the black tar paper will heat the hive fast enough that the cluster will break up in time to take advantage of the brief flight time available.
-Place hives or nucs together in twos or fours so they can protect each other from the wind. There may even be some transfer of radient heat.
Wrap weaker colonies with insulation- I wrap all my nucs with foil faced bubble wrap that is used for air-conditioning ducts. I have yet to lose a nuc during winter.
Once all this preparation is done you can forget about them till spring. I leave for Florida and when I return in April most are strong and ready to be split.

[Joel]

Wow, all these years I've been doing it backwards. I take my bees south and I winter in the north. :cool:

[ozzy]

Joel,
It would be nice to bring them along but I wouldn't be able to avoid bringing back the Small Hive Beetle next spring. Actually I was thinking it would be nice to bring them as far south as southern Illinois and leave them with another state inspector. I notice as I drive back from Florida through Illinois that spring flowers are at least two or three weeks earlier than in northern Illinois. While it is a nice idea I don't think it would be all that profitable and it certainly would be a lot of work to move them.

[Joel]

Ozzy, your bees are doing fine in the north, me, take me!!

I'd be interested to hear more about you winter nuc set up and when you start the nucs and how many you have wintered (total over the years)

[ December 06, 2006, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]

[ozzy]

Joel,
3 yrs ago I heard a scientist speak about the problems with buying bees,ie resistant mites, diseases, viruses and SHB. While I wasn't buying bees, I decided to explore the idea of making summer increases or nucs to sell to my friends. I discussed the idea of wintering nucs with several USDA researchers including Dr Hoopingarner that had done the research in Madison, Wisconsin years ago. I used their suggestions and tried it with just a few (5) the year before last and 20 nucs last year. I have about 30 this year.
Starting in June, I remove frames I find with supersedure cells or good swarm cells and place them in nuc boxes. I have built 5 frame nuc boxes but start a nuc with two or three frames of bees and at least one queen cell. I have been surprised how successful I have been in getting the queen mated and laying since I was under the impression one couldn't expect more than 70% success. As summer progresses I can evaluate each queen and remove those with poor traits or are slow to build in strength. I add frames of foundation as they grow more populous and by August those started in late June will have drawn two boxes of 5 frames each. I continue to start nucs through July but by August I have to stop or unite several later to get the strength I want. The later they are started the less progress they make so it is best to create them just when you would want the bees for production. However, by stealing only a frame per colony you don't noticeably impair the colony production.
I test for mite levels and treat those that have reached a damaging level around mid August. This year I only had one that showed a lot of mites in August. I did however treat all with Apiguard because I wasn't sure how accurate my mite count was and I wanted them to be in great shape going into winter. I might not have treated but Apiguard isn't noted to build resistance. If you pick frames that have little capped brood when you make up the nuc you will transfer few mites in spring and mite population will build slowly. I wasn't that careful and so I had more mites than I should have. Ironically when I tested some of my standard production colonies they had none to few mites which should have been the case with my nucs.
I winter my nucs in 3 deep 5 frame nucs. By mid August they will only have 2-5 frames boxes so I feed them and my standard colonies to get the next 5 frames drawn and capped. I couldn't believe how much I had to feed them this year to get them to draw out that black rite cell foundation but with lots of feeders on many hives the bees drew out the required frames. Actually I had over 200 frames to draw out and that takes a lot of sugar. I think all that feeding caused the queens to lay more so they should have large clusters going into winter and come out stronger as a result. Most colonies were like lead by the time I was done but this shouldn't be a problem next spring since stronger colonies will consume more and come out of spring even stronger.
I haven't yet decided what to do with all the bees I will have next spring. I have about half the nucs spoken for already and judging by how light hives were around here this fall I would bet most guys are going to be looking for replacements next spring. It was kind of a crime that so many of the hives I inspected had populous, healthy bees and almost no capped honey. I guess the beekeepers never bothered to check to see that the fall honey flow here was a total bust. They probably figured the bees would fill the brood chamber during fall flows but since that didn't happen the bees will starve within the next few weeks. There were some articles this year about summer increases and it was pretty accurate. You might try it if you are looking for another income from bees. Actually I am not really sure it is worth selling them since if you split them early there aren't enough drones around to mate with any queen you might raise and a new queen costs a lot. About all you do make is 50.00 whereas if I turn the overwintered nuc into a two queen system as I did some last year, it will produce 5 boxes of honey on average. 150x6.00 per lb is more work but a lot more honey. My problem is I can probably produce more honey than I can sell at that price.