Ventilation Insulation box / inner cover question

[BerkeyDavid]

I am making up 11 of Tim Tarheit's inner cover insulation ventilation box (http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/plans/all_season_inner.pdf).

THese are used in place of an inner cover.

The plans call for a 3/8" space between the bottom of the box and the 1/4" plywood "inner cover" piece. This gives you enough room to cut a 3/8" entrance below the plywood.

Of course on the standard Lang inner cover the plywood sits right down over the hive body.

So here is my question. What will the effect of this bee? I am thinking a lot of burr comb will be built on the top bars. But other than that I don't see any other downside. And perhaps some additional ventilation in the top?

I thought about just tacking the plywood bottom to the box bottom and making a tunnel through the foam insulation to the entrance on top of the plywood, but I am thinking that it would be harder for them to get out duiring the winter if I did that.

Hope Tim sees this and comments.

[tarheit]

It depends on where you are getting your inner covers from. Some are completely flat on one side, but most I've seen have some space on both sides of the inner cover. (See mann lakes inner cover (http://www.mannlakeltd.com/catalog/page15.html) for example).

I do tend to make mine now though with only 1/4" space (maybe even a little bit less). Then I use 3/8" plywood. After he box is assembled, then I cut the 3/8" entrance in the front using a dado blad on the table saw (though a regular blade would work just fine, it just takes longer). You end up cutting away 1/8" of the plywood, but only around the entrance. (It should work with 1/4" plywood as well as long as you don't cut much past the 3/4" front piece, there just isn't as much margin for error, and often times I find there isn't much price difference).

I don't find I get too much burr comb with this setup. Of course if you don't keep ahead of the hives when the flow is on you should expect burr comb everywhere smile.gif .

-Tim

[Ben Brewcat]

I made two and like them. I haven't had burring so far, though one hive had aggressively propolized the inner hole and the upper entrance; guess they didn't like all the ventilation. I haven't cut the insulator foam yet but need to soon. Seems to me one could put a block of candy, with a hole for the middle hole, in this box too. Last winter I just put insulation in the box and it worked great.

P.S. I think the upper holes are good distractors for robbers as well; I often see YJs and robbers up there thinking it less defended than the entrance, but foiled by the mesh.

[ November 07, 2006, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Ben Brewcat ]

[BerkeyDavid]

OK, thanks! Anything else you would change? I got the sides cut out last night, from 1" oak my buddy and I got from a tree last year, it has been drying out in my barn. milled it down to 7/8" - really looks nice! Maybe I'll stain it smile.gif smile.gif

I figure even though it will be heavy it's not gonna get any heavier like a super...

Still have to drill the holes out for the ventilation and make the entrance hole.

[Ben Brewcat]

No, not really for me, it works well for me just as described in the plans. A taller box would obviate having to add an empty box to accomodate a feeder jar, but then you'd have all that extra space all summer too. Actually I often leave stuff up in the box for "safekeeping": hive tool, reducers, etc. I also keep a square of mesh for blocking the hole in there. Probably a good stash for the passport and money belt too, can't imagine many burglars would crack open a beehive to look :D . I find that the girls don't mind "peeking" as much as with traditional inner and outer cover combos, so easy to grab an item out without disrupting the hive.

I really like these vent boxes; my dark-green hives have never bearded, even at 100 degrees. I do have SBBs on as well.

[Michael Bush]

I made a lot that looked a lot like that except I put a hole the size of a canning jar lid and #8 hardware cloth under it. That way I can use a jar feeder on top by adding a box.

[wayacoyote]

My girlfriend's father made some similar after I described my rendition to him. He used some spare crawl-space vents on the sides, and they worked sharp!! and definately reduced bearding a good deal. Further, he made some slatted racks which eliminated all bearding with a vented top.

Waya

[tarheit]

Propolizing of the inner hole and front entrance does happen, but varries quite a bit from hive to hive. Most just have a little propolis at the entrance, but some go nuts. I had one this year that completely closed off the inner hole.

I've thought about making it a taller box, but it seems a waste most of the year, and the wide wood gets expensive. If they were an extra inch tall though, I could use a medium (6 5/8) to put over the pickle jars I use. They do work ok as they are, the pickle jar sticks up a bit, but I haven't had any problems so long as I put a brick on top.

I use the top box to store lots of stuff too. I often use it as a place to put scrapings, broken comb, etc. The bees clean it out nicely and it doesn't seem to cause robbing, and while they stick the comb to the box, they have never stored anything in it.

-Tim

[power napper]

I built a dozen of them, work real well. I do have one hive that propolises the inner screened hole 2" X 4"though. Needed some more so just took some old medium supers and tacked some 3/8 plywood on bottom, added a 3/8 strip around three sides and left front open for top entrance. Works well for ventilation but the front top opening in my opinion caused more sever robbing when a feeder is on top.

[BerkeyDavid]

The only change I have made is to increase the height to 4" even (Plans state minimum 3.5 inches). This is to accomodate the big pickle jar feeders which should fit with a medium on top.

Thanks all, and a big thanks to Tim for drawing up and posting the plans.

Tim the queens from the cells we got from you are going strong! See how many we can get through the winter...

[ November 08, 2006, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: BerkeyDavid ]

[tarheit]

Glad to hear it. I think winter will be a bit of a struggle here. Was a very poor honey year and hives and splits didn't build up and put away stores like they should. I've been doing a lot of feeding, though the bees themselves look good.

-Tim

[Ben Brewcat]

Thought: what about a board of candy in the box, under the insulation? Seems like it would absorb moisture, and be available as needed without stimulating brood. Thoughts?

[brent.roberts]

I've put holes in a beemax top cover, put it on the hive, add a medium box, then another solid beemax cover. Got a 1" hole with no mesh for a rapid feeder, two additional 1" holes with window screen for vents to be open or covered and a 4" x 4" whole with #8 hardware cloth. Put some pollen patties on top and the game plan was to let them feed on the patties from the bottom. Some of them are so eager to get at the patties they squeeze through the hardware cloth, gorge, and then can't get back down, and die on top. Going to get some finer hardware cloth.

The patties get quite soft from the humidity inside. Candy may adsorb so much moisture it may start to drip.

This plan has a problem with rain landing on the protrusions of the lower beemax cover and running inside under the edges of the medium box. Got to stop that. Plastic wrap works but that will cause condensation. Going to try Tyvek house wrap and see how the condensation goes.

[NCBEE]

Tim,
I have several of your ventilated covers. I am modifying them. ( only because I can't help it ). I dilled 6 extra 2 inch holes in the plywood and covered them with #8 cloth for extra ventilation. I am also adding another 1.5 inches to shim the top so a telescoping cover does not cover the ventilation holes on the side.

[tarheit]

I've got a few telescoping covers too that pose a problem with the cover because they are at least 3 inches deep. They were used equipment from retired beekeepers and aren't in the best of condition so I haven't bothered to modify anything for them as they'll be replaced before too long. The telescoping covers I make only overhand by about 1.5" so it isn't a problem.

-Tim

[BerkeyDavid]

Hi all

Tim I just finished building 10 of your covers, plus another one I made to fit over 2 5 frame nucs.

The insulation is all below the screened hole.

And the upper entrance of course is below everything.

I am having trouble trying to keep myself from plugging that top entrance hole. Seems like all the heat will go out the top entrance.

Plus I am wondering if the insulation will let the moisture go through? I pulled off the plastic skin on the foam so I am hoping that it will go through.

Maybe I will post some pictures...

Any reassurance you can give me on this? smile.gif

[Ben Brewcat]

Well the bees don't actually heat the hive interior, only the cluster interior. With a reduced entrance below (or even the "leak" around a SBB), moisture should rise out the upper entrance. You could further reduce it to a bee-width with duct tape if you're in a cold or particularly windy area.

[Finman]

Upper ventilation hole is needed in winter that moist air goes out and does not condensate inside hive. Simple finger size hole in front wall is enough.

If you lead respiration air flow between inner and outer cover moist air condensate there and it makes insulation wet and it generates mold into inner cover.

I have seen complex systems to get upper ventilation but they are not necessary.

[Michael Bush]

>Upper ventilation hole is needed in winter ...I have seen complex systems to get upper ventilation but they are not necessary.

Exactly. You need upper ventilation and some kind of top entrance, but it doesn't take anything complicated to get them.

[brent.roberts]

>Well the bees don't actually heat the hive interior, only the cluster interior.

Ben:

Last winter I insulated a hive very well and the entire upper box only got below 50 degrees when the outside tme approached 0 deg F. I used a remote sensing digital thermometer to monitor it. Most of the times I checked it the temp was in the 80's. When I put in feed there was a gush of warm moist tropical air coming out the feed hole. The bees were almost never in a tight cluster. Only on the coldest days last winter did they stop coming to the inner cover to feed. When I openned the hive in the spring there were more bees than in October. We did have snow on the ground most of the winter, but it was milder than normal.

So they will heat almost the whole upper half of a well insulated hive.

[ November 18, 2006, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]

[Michael Bush]

>Well the bees don't actually heat the hive interior, only the cluster interior.
>So they will heat almost the whole upper half of a well insulated hive.

And it's not all about temperatures. It's about radiant heat being reflected or not, and draft, and humidity, and a lot of other factors.

Anyone who has stayed in a small tent and a large tent in the winter has felt the difference. And a thick fabric and a thin fabric tent has felt the difference. In none of the cases are you heating the tent, and yet you are much warmer in the smaller tent and much warmer with a thicker fabric. I seriously doubt there is much difference in the thermometer but they are obviously different. When discussing this with Walt Wright he said "If you put a baby in the center of a 70 degree gym it won't be as warm as a 70 degree bedroom."

[tarheit]

Seems everyone else beat me to the answer, and probably worded it better than I.

The upper entrance is critical to let moisture out of the hive in my opinion. They may not be able to keep things as warm as a well insulated hive, but they will be able to keep it warm enough. Most importantly, they won't get soaked. The reason for the insulation is 2 fold. 1st to block all the extra top ventalation (there can be too much), and 2nd to maintain a warm ceiling so that moisture from respiration doesn't condence on the inner cover and fall back down on the bees. It really doesn't provide a great deal of 'insulation' to keep the hive itself warm.

A well insulated hive has it's good and bad points. They may be able to maintain a much larger brood nest earlier and later in the season, but they will likely go through a lot more stores.

Reminds me of a couple hives Loyd Spears posted about several years ago. A beekeeper he knew let two aggressive hives go though the winter in upstate new york without any lid or inner cover in an attempt to get rid if them. Of course they had plenty of ventilation and no condensation on the inner cover and made it though the winter just fine.

-Tim

[Finman]

<BrentSo they will heat almost the whole upper half of a well insulated hive.>

That is not true if bees are in winterball.

I looked last winter my hives. It was -8C (17F)outside and it was ice crystals inside corners of upper stryfoam box quite near bee ball. Colony is large 2- box wintering.

Bees do not warm up they cavity. They keep their normal ball tempereture.

Last winter I covered hives and walked around hives, and one hive disturbed, I measured it's temperature. It rised to +42C (107F) . Six hours later it was +32C (90F) and in the morking +23C (73F). It was -8C ( 17F) outside.

Wintering hives have measured very well and results are here in internet.

[JLD]

How does moisture get out if one uses migratory covers?

[Finman]

.
If you have wide screened bottom in winter, you need not upper moisture exit system.