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rainesridgefarm
01-21-2006, 06:41 AM
does anyone dip their boxes in this. I see you can get both from Mann Lake. I am building about 200 boxes this winter. I dread painting them and would like to use this. let me know if you have had any luck with it.

Phillip

BULLSEYE BILL
01-21-2006, 07:39 AM
It is my prefered method. You can see a couple of pictures on my site under equipment. I won't go back to painting, it's bad enough that I will have to touch-up the boxes I have already have painted. I may try dipping those if they get weathered bad enough.

I have talked to a friend of mine that does metal work about making dipping tanks for sale here on the BB. He can either make them in cold rolled or stainless, but we have to come up with a really good design. The subject has come up here a couple of times and I remember one design that really stood out, I'll have to go back and find it. I think it was a barrel cut in half and used a propane turkey frier heater. I would make it a double boiler though.

If any of you want to make suggestions on the perfect tank, I will run it past him and get a price. I will have one made for myself in any case, then take pictures and post results for all of you.

Phillip, search the archives under this forum, and you will find the address for reasonable priced rosin in fifty pound bags, I would give you the address now but I am not at home where I have the address. Also the best priced parafin I found was at Michaels in twenty-five pound blocks, for candle making.

Here is one thread:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000637#000008

ikeepbees
01-22-2006, 08:28 AM
BB,

I was planning on talking to a local welder about this subject as well. I was planning to use boiled linseed oil and beeswax rather than the rosin and parrafin.

I hadn't considered making it a double boiler - that sounds like a good idea. I am also planning to have a drain tube with a valve in case I find I need it.

Do you plan to submerge the whole box, or do half and then rotate it to get the other half?

BULLSEYE BILL
01-22-2006, 11:22 AM
Rob,
>I was planning on talking to a local welder about this subject as well.

Some others here have done that and came up with some discouraging numbers. If we are going to have to pay good money for a quality tank, it should be designed to do the job right.

>I hadn't considered making it a double boiler - that sounds like a good idea.

It was un-nerving to heat wax on an electric stove knowing that it was just too heavy to remove from the heat if it went up in flames. Heating it direct is a slow process because the elements start to melt the wax at the contact points and you have a hard cap above building pressure. So it needs to be a slow process, But if in a double boiler the water surrounds the wax and heats it more evenly and is much safer and faster.

>I am also planning to have a drain tube with a valve in case I find I need it.

Interesting idea. Would you have small containers that you could pop the blocks of wax out of for re-heating?

>Do you plan to submerge the whole box, or do half and then rotate it to get the other half?

The tank I have I had made one inch larger than a regular ten frame box and deep enough to submerse a full deep plus a couple of inches. That was poor planning on my part as I found out when I went to boil tops and bottoms, still do-able, but only half a stack at a time on end.

Wood floats, really. So when I do mediums I put one box in and another on top of it to keep it immersed, the top one is half under and is turned over for the other half to soak when the next box is boiled. I am able to boil one and a half boxes at a time that way. If there is enough wax in the tank, you can also put two more mediums on end, but they have to be flipped during the next cycle too, but that gets you one more per cycle. But they float. So I put a brick in the box before I put it in to hold it down. I prefer to put the brick in the box instead of on top as it brings the level of wax up. When I start running low on wax I will put bricks in the tank to bring the level up. The other option is to weigh out more wax and rosin, but believe me that tank gets real heavy, and taking bricks out is easier than dipping wax out.

BULLSEYE BILL
01-22-2006, 11:27 AM
Thinking that a tank like this would make short work of wax coating Permacomb...

Trevor Mansell
01-22-2006, 12:13 PM
A friend of mine had a tank made for dipping boxes. It is jacketed filled with used motor oil. he uses 2 water heater elements to heat the oil . then he has a cage that he puts the unassembled boxes in and lowers it into the parrafin. he cooks them for about eight hours ,lets them drip dry and puts them together.
I think the tank cost about $1000.00 to have made.

ikeepbees
01-22-2006, 01:48 PM
Hey BB,


Would you have small containers that you could pop the blocks of wax out of for re-heating?Yes - I'm not sure yet what I'll use, though.

It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on this process, if we think this through we ought to be able to come up with a good piece of equipment.

A couple of other thoughts I have had - would you want a top built for the tank? Do you want a steel grate of some kind on the bottom for the wood to sit on?

BULLSEYE BILL
01-22-2006, 05:31 PM
> if we think this through we ought to be able to come up with a good piece of equipment.

Everyone keep the ideas coming. I'm leaving for Reno Monday and will be back Friday, so I will check in when I get back. I doubt I'll find a computer while I'm there.

>A couple of other thoughts I have had - would you want a top built for the tank?

Good one! I have been using a top cover tin without the wood, fits like a glove. Very helpful while bringing up to temp and keeping debris out while cold.

>Do you want a steel grate of some kind on the bottom for the wood to sit on?

I don't know that it would be necessary, but it would keep the globs of resin on the bottom from sticking to the woodenware. In itself it is not a big deal if this happens, I just take a putty knife and scrape off any globs.

>>Would you have small containers that you could pop the blocks of wax out of for re-heating?

>Yes - I'm not sure yet what I'll use, though.

It would take a bunch of containers to empty the tank. However, it would be nice to reduce the weight for moving it back to the storage shed.

Trevors input made me think of my wax melter. It is a steel tank with a water jacket on the bottom and an electric heating element that fits through a standard 1 1/4" pipe fitting. As long as you have an electrical outlet handy (away from the building) a jaketed electricaly heated tank would sure be safer than using gas flame.

If you have a heater element from another piece of equipment, it would lessen the cost of the tank. The one that came with my botteling tank is a Watlow 2000 watt, I'm sure it will do the trick.

>he has a cage that he puts the unassembled boxes in and lowers it into the parrafin. he cooks them for about eight hours ,lets them drip dry and puts them together.

Trevor, yes you can do it that way, but your corners will be weak because of the wax to wax contack and the nails or screws will be coated and not hold very well. I prefer to glue and screw first then boil in the pararosin, which by the way only takes about 12 to 15 minutes at 180 degrese.

ikeepbees
01-22-2006, 06:51 PM
BB,

I was thinking the grate would provide better coverage on the bottom wood surfaces - probably not a big deal.

I definitely agree that it's a good idea to assemble prior to coating. The glue is very important to long lasting equipment, and won't work after dipping.


It is jacketed filled with used motor oil. he uses 2 water heater elements to heat the oil .Electric heating elements might be the way to go. Question: Is there any safety concern that anyone can think of in using used motor oil, or say FGMO, as the heating medium rather than water? If not you might avoid some corrosion problems by using it.

Trevor Mansell
01-23-2006, 05:14 AM
If you want to put them together first that is up to you. The people that have these tanks have alot of hives , so they want to do alot of boxes at once. they boil the boxes for eight hours so the parrafin fills all the air pockets in the wood. They use used motor oil because it is cheap and wont evaporate. One person uses beeswax and that copper stuf thay sell at dadant and mann lake ,he likes it I guess Ill see how it last down here in Florida.

Dan Williamson
01-23-2006, 09:20 AM
I picked up a scrap 500 gal propane tank Sat and dropped it off at the welders. I got the tank for free. He is going to cut the rounded cap off the end and weld a piece of 5/16 steel plate to the bottom. He will weld both internally and externally. Then he will cut a 12" piece off the leftover part of tank to make a base under the flat plate bottom. He'll cut a half moon out of the base part so I can get my turkey fryer burner under the tank and hoses won't get crushed. Then he'll weld a couple of handles on the side so I can easily move it with my tractor.

I got the idea from 2rubes on this site. http://countryrubes.com/pages/13/index.htm They left the endcap on their scrap propane tank it just forces the tank to be taller in my opinion. They were very helpul when I asked them questions.

I would certainly check into any potential liablility issues before building parafin tanks to sell. I would think there is a potential for a big problem if one were to fail or was misused causing injury or death.

The dimensions for my tank will be a diameter of approx 36" and height (part holding parafin) of 27" The overall height will be approx 39 1/4". Side walls are 1/4" steel which will be heavy if you don't have equip to lift it.

Cost should be under $150 for my tank. Doesn't include a burner.

[ January 23, 2006, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

suttonbeeman
01-28-2006, 05:54 PM
We dip in 8% copper naphinate and 92 % parafin at 200Deg. for 12 hrs. Kelley built us a tank....dipping only way to go!

NW IN Beekeeper
01-29-2006, 12:28 AM
Did I misread... 12 hours?

Um.. do you get more than one done in a dip session?

I can't consider have a molten pit of parafin burning about my house for 12 hours.

If I had to do that, I'd have to consider plucking and cooking chickens in the batch while I did a few boxes.

Ian
01-29-2006, 03:37 PM
What would your worked out cost per box be to dip standard boxes?

2rubes
02-01-2006, 07:28 AM
Hi, just a note on our tank. My husband wanted it taller so the melting wax and rosin was not close to the top. He felt that was safer. Our mentor uses an electric oven element, and his wax gets way too hot and scorches. He's actually caught stuff on fire from not attending it and having the wax overflow. His is right next to where he keeps old equipment and it was very dangerous. He was lucky he didn't loose his barn. Heating Parafin is dangerous if the temp gets over 400 degrees, it can ignite, but with our tank, we need two burners and a lid to get it up to 350 and we struggle keep it there.
Randy worked out a cost of roughly .75 for each of our boards and was charing us $1.00 per board to dip them. Well worth it.
Dan, great idea on the handles.
Remember to put the burners away after use, earwigs will crawl in and make it there home, and they are difficult to remove.
Janet

Murphy
02-01-2006, 08:42 AM
Phillip,

Heres a link to details of tank and dipping;

http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/paraffin.en.html


Kieran

aallen
02-02-2006, 09:41 AM
hello, all. just wanted the low down on parrafin n rosin dip. ratio-- 3/1 or 2/1? have built tank w/double boiler ready to order. what contact for cheapest parrafin and rosin?

BULLSEYE BILL
02-02-2006, 10:15 AM
2RUBES gives a link to Pacific Coast in this thread =

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000637#000008

Worth the read!

I figured my cost to around .32 cents per part, not board.

aallen, sent you a PM.

Ian
02-03-2006, 10:55 AM
So, 1.25$ per box sounds reasonable. Seals your box and protects your wood. How long til another application?

Dan Williamson
02-03-2006, 11:45 AM
I have no personal experience as I'm having my "tank" built as we speak.

In doing my search on parafin dipping,I've been told that boxes dipped have lasted as long as 30 years. Others have said they dipped 10 years ago and the boxes where still in great shape.

I've got to think that if done right it would outlast paint. I think the heat allows the parafin and resins or copper naphanate to penetrate deeply into the wood as paint primarily sits at the surface.

[ February 03, 2006, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

guatebee
02-12-2006, 08:35 PM
I am also very interested in an efficient method for dipping. Done some research and have come up with some ideas:
1. Assembled boxes take up a lot of room and pararosin volume. Unassembled box parts need less volume of pararosin, hence needing less heat (cost) to treat more wood. Think of the cost of keeping parasosin hot if it is just filling the empty space of an assembled box!!
2. Unassembled box parts can be placed flat as well as tops and bottoms, hence needing a smaller tank. Tank shape does affect heating efficiency: a rectangular tank big enough to accomodate say six tops will have a greater surface area exposed to the heating element (torch, fire, etc) than a small diameter/high wall tank.
3. Tank design(size) should be defined by laying out box pieces forming a pile some 12 inches high, making sure tops and bottoms fit in the same shape tank. Here is an actual count: a tank 24 x 24 x 18 inches will accomodate some 8 boxes (unassembled)or some 6 tops or bottoms(assembled). Plenty of space at the top to prevent overflow. Now that is a handy size tank. If dipping time is about 8 minutes, then each box takes only 1 minute.
4. Hot dipping may weaken glued joints.
5. A couple extra nails to each corner, driven at an angle, will provide solid joints. Use galvanized or other rust proof nails.
6. Keep an extra bucket with warm pararosin handy for refilling the tank as the product gets used up.
7. Higher resin/parafin ratio will protect better aginst termites. A ratio 2:1 or even 1:1 would be great.
8. Use some kind of big pliers to fish out the box parts when ready.
9. Use a steel plank with a welded post to keep parts submerged.
10. If in doubt about proper face coating, try putting boards on end instead of flat. This may be tricky since wood floats.

SilverFox
02-13-2006, 10:17 AM
If you dip the hives unassembled wouldn't you have problems with the two surfaces that are together?? I know if you put two flat pieces of material together and submerse them the surfaces that are in contact with each other will be, for the most part, dry. IMHO, doing complete boxes would give better protection.
Just wondering.

BULLSEYE BILL
02-14-2006, 07:31 PM
>1. Assembled boxes take up a lot of room and pararosin volume.

If your tank will hold three stacked mediums, you can fit two more inside of them. That's five total.

>2. Unassembled box parts can be placed flat as well as tops and bottoms, hence needing a smaller tank.

Dipping unassembles parts will make it impossible to glue the parts together. Also nails or screws will be coated with wax making them less likely to hold the box together for any length of time.

>3. Tank design(size) should be defined by laying out box pieces forming a pile some 12 inches high, making sure tops and bottoms fit in the same shape tank. Here is an actual count: a tank 24 x 24 x 18 inches will accomodate some 8 boxes (unassembled

I agree with Silver Fox, unassembled parts stacked together will keep the wax from being asorbed. They would have to have spacers inbetween the parts, but then again there is the glue not sticking to wax problem.

>4. Hot dipping may weaken glued joints.

I haven't seen that problem, I could be wrong, but I doubt the glue in the joints will be effected by the hot wax.

>6. Keep an extra bucket with warm pararosin handy for refilling the tank as the product gets used up.

The wax is not used up at a fast rate. Even after an afternoon of boiling, I was only down a few pounds. I was able to keep the level up by adding a few bricks, which incidently helped keep the two boxes in the middle down by setting the bricks in the box before setting them in the tank.

>7. Higher resin/parafin ratio will protect better aginst termites. A ratio 2:1 or even 1:1 would be great.

Mann Lake recomends two wax to one resin. I don't know if more resin would be helpful or not.

>8. Use some kind of big pliers to fish out the box parts when ready.

I made some wire hooks but found that the floating boxes didn't need to be hooked. I just used some light gloves without any problem.

>9. Use a steel plank with a welded post to keep parts submerged.

Bricks are handy too. smile.gif

Dan Williamson
02-23-2006, 08:40 AM
Just an update on the gum rosin. I called today and the gum rosin is up to 1.09/lb vs the .85/lb that Bullseye Bill paid for his.

The cheapest I have found parafin was at Hobby Lobby. It was $1/lb.

2rubes or Bullseye,

How much parafin/rosin will I need for every 100 med boxes that I dip using 2:1 ratio? Trying to figure out how much order.

Thanks,

BULLSEYE BILL
02-23-2006, 05:41 PM
I bought 100 lbs of parafin and 50 lbs of rosin and haven't made much of a dent in it yet and I have treated quite a bit of wood.

I don't think I could acuratly tell you the answer you are looking for. The amount of material used is probably in the 2 to 4 ounce range.

I can tell you that 50 lbs of parafin and 25 lbs of rosin in my tank will cover a deep. My tank is about an inch wider and longer than a box.

BULLSEYE BILL
02-23-2006, 06:00 PM
I talked to Reed tonight about making that electric wax heater. We decided to draw up the final plans when I go to KC for the KHP meeting the third and fourth of March.

Our idea is to make a tank inside of a tank, all stainless steel. The lower tank filled with water will use a regular imersion type heater. This should be the safest design possible.

I also liked the lid that doubles for a drip tray idea. As well as the lever press for pushing the wood down into the pararosin. I am thinking of a slumgum press for squeezing out beeswax too.

Michael Bush
02-24-2006, 04:19 AM
I'd love to see a plan and maybe order a box if he wan'ts to make more.

Dan Williamson
02-24-2006, 07:06 AM
Looks like I'm gonna need alot of paraffin/rosin to get my level up to the right height. That is the downside to using a tank the size of a 500gal propane tank.

The upside is that I should be about to get 5 med's in at once.

I'd like to see a plan as well. What do you envision as being the max temp the tank could get up to? Maybe you haven't gotten that far. I think most immersion heaters go up to 250. I'm hoping to dip most of mine at around 300-325 deg.

Let us know when you get the details ironed out.

BULLSEYE BILL
02-24-2006, 07:59 AM
>I'd love to see a plan and maybe order a box if he wan'ts to make more.

We will talk at the meeting and have some drawings to look at. I know we will make at least one for me, but we also need to know that they are economically feesable to make and offer to others.

Time and materials, people will do things for a friend that just don't pay to do for anyone else. If they can be produced at an affordable cost and retail price, he would make them for others as well.

>What do you envision as being the max temp the tank could get up to?

In the 2006 Dadant catalog, page 71, there are three different heaters available. I have the 1700 watt and plan to use that one. Mann Lake's recomendation is to cook the rosin at 180, and that is what I have been doing. If you go above boiling (212) you will have secondary problems with the water splashing and evaporating out of the tank.

Dan Williamson
02-24-2006, 08:10 AM
I know 2rubes heats theirs to 350 and I think suttonbeeman heats his to 250. I would think that boiling would be a good thing in terms of treating the wood. It should certainly be able to penetrate deeper into the wood. I've been told it boils the water right out of the wood.

The downside is that it certainly raises the hazard factor. My understanding is that the flashpoint for paraffin is around 400 deg. I figure if I can keep it about 100 deg below that I'm ok. The risk is splashing as you mentioned and should not be taken lightly.

My flame with be contained below the tank and will be mostly enclosed underneath. (Still always a risk though) I'll send pics when I get some.

Mann Lake also recommends 3:1 ratio (I checked their online catalog yest.) I'm planning on 2:1 ratio which is what 2rubes uses.

**Correction: Rick treats his at 200 not 250 but he lets it soak for 12 hrs.

[ February 24, 2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

BULLSEYE BILL
02-24-2006, 12:14 PM
>Mann Lake also recommends 3:1 ratio (I checked their online catalog yest.)

Oh, I guess they changed it? I was sure they recomended 2:1. Oh well, like gramps said, If some is good...

honeyman46408
02-24-2006, 04:48 PM
Dan
Hurry up and get-er done and I will bring some of my new boxes out to try it :D

sugar bandit #2
02-27-2006, 03:45 AM
Wow, the parifin/rosin/copper napthinate dip seems like a great idea for new and used woodenware but not very realistic for us small-time hobbiest. Maybe we could somehow team-up for construction cost through our informed local clubs? Or if were just getting started (or not) try out plastic brood boxes like those sold @ bee's forever plastics. Their add said they might have the 6 5/8" mediums also available soon?

Dan Williamson
02-27-2006, 06:22 AM
Ed,

I think the tank is done. I am going to call the welder today. I have ordered 110lbs of rosin and have about 120lbs of paraffin. I've got to get some more paraffin. I've got about 125 boxes to dip, 30ish bottom boards 30ish covers and still need to make up a bunch of nuc boxes.

I may try to dip in mid to late march. ( I still have 60 boxes to put together) I got laid up for a couple of weeks unexpectedly with surgery to remove my galbladder and wasn't able to finish building my own equipment. I ended up buying about half my boxes.

My understanding is it can take up to 2-3 hours just to liquify the amount of wax I'll have in my tank. I plan on dipping for about 15min apiece at around 300deg.

You are welcome to come by anytime.

weedbee
03-12-2006, 06:13 PM
Hi everyone,
from what i know about hot dipping boxes a 3/1 parafin/pine rosin mix is the better ratio.To much rosen makes it very foamy.
At 350f its like cooking a french fry,in the vat for three to five min's. With the higher temps the wood will suck the mix into the wood after it comes out of the tank.All of this adds up to, you can dip your boxes unassembled,there is no wax/rosen on the surface of the joints when you put them together
I have two frame(one for deeps and one for westerns) that holds 6 sides on the bottom and 6 ends on the top. I load the frame with parts place it in the vat and put a 8" concrete block on top of handles to hold it down.
After 5 min's i pull it out and place on the lid to drain of any extra wax.
If i dip deeps then westerns(i only made one of each size frames) my tank cools down after about 6 dippings so i staple boxes together while the tank warms back up.
Hope this helps you some.
p.s.
Keep a fire extinguisher handy(a BIG one)and a first aid kit with burn cream.I learnt the hard way.

sugar bandit #2
03-14-2006, 03:43 AM
Hi Dan,
Are you taking on any customers yet? If so what are your rates? Would you be able to dip TBH's roughly 14w"x 30L" x 14H"? smile.gif
Thanks,
Tom

honeyman46408
03-14-2006, 02:33 PM
lets all go over to Dan`s saterday ;)

BULLSEYE BILL
03-14-2006, 04:47 PM
>lets all go over to Dan`s saterday

Sounds like a plan. Got a spare plane ticket? I have a fire extinguisher. :D

NW IN Beekeeper
03-14-2006, 06:42 PM
[ March 14, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: NW IN Beekeeper ]

honeyman46408
03-15-2006, 02:37 AM
GO AHEAD Jeff say it :D

Dan Williamson
03-15-2006, 08:43 AM
>>I have a fire extinguisher.

I need a BIG fire extinguisher! Better bring more than one! ;) Somebody bring hot dogs and marshmellows just in case.

I get a tank made and all the sudden I've got friends.... ;) I had no idea it would be that easy. And I don't even know how well it'll work yet! ;)

I'm still waiting to see Bullseye's plans.

[ March 15, 2006, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

Walt McBride
03-15-2006, 09:35 AM
Weedbee, do you glue your finger joints on the boxes? Can you tell me how well glue will hold compaired to un treated boxes?
Walt

BULLSEYE BILL
03-15-2006, 03:38 PM
>I'm still waiting to see Bullseye's plans.

Reed and I went over them on the third and fourth before he went on his business trip. He will be home next week and should have it done by the first of the month.

I left all the drawings with him as he did not have a copier. I can tell you that it will hold five mediums by stacking three and standing two in the middle. It is wide enough to hold two nucs side by side. and over all it is large enough to hold 24" outter covers stacked flat.

There are stiffners in the bottom tank that maintain clearance for the inner tank and also slotted for easy seperation. We have a drain plug for the outter tank, but have not found a way to drain the inner tank.

The lid doubles for a drain rack, and we are still looking at different ways to attach a lever for submerging the woodenware. We are also putting feet under it so it can be moved with a two wheeler or fork lift. They will also help with heat exchange so not to be a fire hazzard when setting on flamable surfaces.

The slumgum press we put on hold for now.

>I get a tank made and all the sudden I've got friends....

Just like a hot tub, huh? :D

BULLSEYE BILL
03-15-2006, 03:40 PM
>Can you tell me how well glue will hold compaired to un treated boxes?

I've never heard of a glue that will stick to wax.

Hill's Hivery
03-15-2006, 05:33 PM
Hey Dan.....I got a fire truck! THat beat the extinguisher? (Heck I got a whole station of fire trucks!) :D

NW IN Beekeeper
03-15-2006, 09:54 PM
I retracted all my stuff for the sake of friendship, all I can say it was really feakin' funny. I was on roll, but I don't think that Dan, his wife, nor his next of kin would have appreciated them all, so I just removed them.
Sorry, sometimes my conscious wakes up.

Happy dipping, be careful,

Jeff

rainesridgefarm
03-19-2006, 07:23 PM
so far so good. It adds a lot of weight the equipment. Nice looking boxes. we will see how they fare over the summer. thanks for all the help. it was tough to get the rosin to stay in solution.

Dan Williamson
03-20-2006, 06:29 AM
>>it was tough to get the rosin to stay in solution.

Could you elaborate more for us? I'm going to be dipping soon so I'm curious as to your comment and solution to the problem.

Could you give us some detail of temp used, ratio of paraffin/rosin, length of time per dip, type of tank, heat source, air temp at time of dip etc....

Just looking to learn.

Thanks,

Dan

[ March 20, 2006, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

guatebee
03-21-2006, 06:24 PM
I was thinking that melting the first batch of parafin and resin is quite easy because one could break the material into small pieces. But once you have say 100 lbs of molten stuff in the tank, is it wise to empty the liquid thing int some sort of molds, instead of letting it cool into a huge block?
Apart from taking forever to melt the large block, I read in a previous post that someone told about pressure bulidong up at the bottom of the block and exploding. Anyone red this?

Anyway, how do you guys re-melt?
Here is what I would do: once finished dipping, I´d pour the stuff onto a big plastic sheet on the floor. This would harden so fast into a thin plank, and would be very easy to break into smaller pieces to throw back in the tank the next day or whenever. Of course I am talking small amounts.

weedbee
03-22-2006, 06:24 PM
walt
i don't use glue after dipping i just use 1/2"crown staples 2" long. still holding together after 3 year and looking good.

guatebee
04-02-2006, 09:32 PM
I am promoting the use of parafin rosin dipping with 11 beekeeping groups. None have ever done it, so I have researched on the topic. Most of the procedure is pretty clear, except this:
Once you have dipped for a day, the mixture left in the dipping tank will harden. How do you go about melting this large block on the next day?

Curtis
04-03-2006, 04:01 AM
Once the parafin has cooled down to 180 just pour into a plastic bucket with a plastic trash bag as a liner and when it cools and hardens it just lifts out. You can make your wax blocks any size you want for easy handleing. Or if you have the area, make a form out of 2x4s and cover with sheet plastic and pour into...this makes for a thinner sheet of wax which is easer to break up and add back to the pot when you are reheating.

Dan Williamson
04-03-2006, 07:05 AM
Made my first dipping attempt last week. Didn't go exactly as planned but I learned alot.

My basic problem was that I didn't have enough wax/rosin to fill my tank. My tank is so big that I put 220lbs/wax and 110lbs/rosin for my 2:1 ratio and it only filled up my tank 2/3rds or so. Needless to say I couldn't get all my boxes dipped completely. I could get basically 2 med boxes almost completely covered and another 4 med boxes partially dipped and then have to flip them. After finding the best way to stack the boxes I think I'm going to be able to get around 8 med boxes done at a time once I get my wax/rosin mixture up to the right height. I stopped after a while to finish another day.

The max I could get my temperature was 300deg. I tried to get it hotter just to see if I could but wasn't able to do it. It took me 2.5hrs to get the mixture melted and up to 250deg where I started dipping.

One of the main things I noticed was that below 275deg I found that most boxes had a waxy feel top them and a very thin film of wax could be scraped off with a hive tool. I had banged the boxes on to of tank to get off any excess. This was after being dipped for 15min.

Around 300 deg the boxes got hot enough that after being pulled out and any excess knocked off they seemed to suck any excess wax/resin into the wood and felt dry and not waxy at all when cool. I plan to dip only at a minimum of 300deg in the future.

I attempted several tries at coloring my boxes using the paraffin dip. I added some candle dye but didn't have enough to color my wax. I ordered some concentrated candle dye and will give that a try on the next run.

I did a test run in a 20qt stainless pot with about 10lbs of wax and 5lbs of rosin. I let it harden overnight and fired it back up the next day. The wax melted faster in this larger block for me. The bottom liquified first obviously but the sides also heated up allowing molten wax to work its way to the surface. It pooled on top and actually helped warm the wax on top effectively heating it from both sides. I found that the quicker it cooled the more the wax pulled away from the sides. I wouldn't worry to much about it. If you are worried just heat it slowly.

On another note: After test dipping small pieces of wood I heated my 15lbs of mixture to the flashpoint just to force it to catch fire. I wanted to know what to expect if my big tank went. It wasn't that big a deal but I wouldn't want to be bent over pulling boxes out when it happened. smile.gif I simply shut off the burner and let it burn. Within a few min as the wax cooled it put itself out. I doubt it would be that easy with my big tank!!!

Just an update on my results.

[ April 03, 2006, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Dan Williamson ]

BULLSEYE BILL
04-03-2006, 08:03 AM
I too spent Saturday and Sunday boiling wax and dipping wood. What better to do while setting around with streph throat?

It took my little electric oven about three hours to melt the block of wax with all three burners set on medium high. I didn't really know if it was a concern about pressure building up under the hard wax, so I took a paddle bit and made a hole above each of the three burners. Nothing spewed up so I ASSume there was no pressure. One thing that makes it faster is to have a good cover for the tank.

The wind was an issue as I had about 25 mph all day Sat. but I was able to run the temp a little higher than I have in the past, around 225. With the higher heat there is less globules of resin in the tank to adhere to the wood and less to scrape off later.

I got around a hunderd pieces of mediums, inner and outter covers, nucs, tops and bottoms done and still have about another thirty to go, about an afternoons worth.

Unlike Dan, I don't knock off the wax, except off the SBB's. I just let it dripp off and let it asorb as it cools.

Saturday night I let the oven run overnight on low and the mixture was ready to go in about 30 minutes Sunday morning.

It would be very interesting to me if someone with the skill and time could annalize the time/heat ratio to penetration. Perhaps the variables would also take in pine density? Dunno, just thinking outloud...

BTW, Dan. You can raise the wax level by putting bricks or blocks in the boxes as you lower them into the tank. They are a little warm when they come out. ;)

Dan Williamson
04-03-2006, 08:20 AM
>>BTW, Dan. You can raise the wax level by putting bricks or blocks in the boxes as you lower them into the tank. They are a little warm when they come out.

Yeah I thought of that. I will do that if my next attempt doesn't get the right height. Its getting expensive shipping this rosin from CA. I've got to find a closer source. I'm gonna add 110lbs of paraffin and 55lbs of rosin to the mix. If it still doesn't get high enough, I'll use the blocks.

I also failed to mention that at 300deg there is absolutely no resin that isn't completely melted. I think that between 250deg - 275deg it completely liquifies. That was my experience and is basically what I read-- That the complete liquification occurs around 250deg. I knocked off the excess wax because I too had a windy day. I think my wind was around 20mph but my temps were also around 48F. The boxes cooled too quickly and couldn't seem to absorb any excess wax quickly enough. At 300deg it seemed to work much better.

BB--Didn't you mention that your boxes might be a little sticky on a warm summer day with the excess wax/resin on the surface?

I guess I just didn't want to deal with that or scraping off any excess after dipping. At the higher temps the boxes seem to come out feeling like natural wood after cooled with no feeling of a wax coating.

Its pretty cool to run water from a hose over the box after it has cooled and watch it bead up and run off just like on a freshly waxed car.

BULLSEYE BILL
04-03-2006, 11:20 AM
>I think that between 250deg - 275deg it completely liquifies.

That sounds right, I saw very little at 225. there must have been some as the parts that were touching the bottom had just a smidgeon on them.

>I think my wind was around 20mph but my temps were also around 48F.

Ah, there is the difference, I had a 75F day, so mine cooled slower. But then again, mine were not as hot as yours to start with...

>Didn't you mention that your boxes might be a little sticky on a warm summer day with the excess wax/resin on the surface?

That was what a guy at Mann Lake told me. That grass and bugs would stick to the wood on hot days. I have not seen any of that on mine from last year.

>Its pretty cool to run water from a hose over the box after it has cooled and watch it bead up and run off just like on a freshly waxed car.

I was looking at the ones that I did last year that have been setting out in the weather all winter and was pleased that they don't look much different than they did last summer.

I have done over 200 pieces and used 50 lb of pararosin, that's about fifty bucks give or take, or about .25 per part. The best thing about it is the lack of effort and time it takes to boil them. When I paint I have to prime and two top coats, that's a lot of time spent painting and it only lasts a few years. Boiling them shouldn't have to be done again, but if a person wanted to they could. If you don't want to scrape propolis, no problem, just dunk em in the tank for a few minutes. Got AFB? Boil it! What do ya think about that?

I was scared the first time I heated the pararosin not knowing what the flashpoint was and if it was going to blow up in a huge fireball. Since I am direct heating the wax on an electric stove I wanted to keep the temperature down. That, and by the recomendation from Mann Lake, is why I did my first batch at 180. Now that I have done it a few times and have inched up my temps to 225 I am getting comfortable. Still, accidently dropping a part or splashing the hot wax onto the red hot burner could create a problem. So anyone who does this should approach with caution and follow their best judgment. And it wouldn't hurt to have a fire extingusher and cover for the tank just in case it flames up.

BULLSEYE BILL
04-03-2006, 11:34 AM
Oops!, sorry Dan. didn't see your post on AFB and boiling redface.gif

Dan Williamson
04-03-2006, 11:59 AM
>>I was scared the first time I heated the pararosin not knowing what the flashpoint was and if it was going to blow up in a huge fireball.

Me too. That is why I forced it to the flashpoint on a small scale to see what it would do. It wasn't as impressive as I thought it might be. It kinda made a whooshing sound and the white smoke that it was giving off basically became the flame. Still I wouldn't want to be too close smile.gif .

I am actually using a "high pressure jet burner" http://www.bayouclassicdepot.com/product_308_detailed.htm hooked up to a 20lb propane tank about 10 ft away. The benefit of my setup is that it would be tough for the pararosin (I like your word!) to come into contact with the burner. Hard for me to explain without pics but I will try to post soon.

Anything is possible which is why I keep a plywood lid and fire extiguisher handy. I actually keep the plywood lid on to help maintain temp while the boxes are "cooking".

>>Still, accidently dropping a part or splashing the hot wax onto the red hot burner could create a problem.

Agreed! Although I will admit something. The first time I did my test I had a sheet of plywood set up against a couple of sawhorses 10ft from my 15lb pararosin mixture in a pot on my burner. The wind was causing me a problem getting up to temp. so I was using the plywood to block some wind. I was letting a couple of pieces of wood boil for 15min as part of my test and walked about 20ft away. The temp of wax was at 350deg at that point. The wind caught my plywood and blew it and the pot of pararosin over all over the burner. It did catch fire but I quickly shut off the propane. Within 30sec the fire was out. The paraffin had cooled off too much to burn.

That put me starting over.

Anyhow, obviously, I think the main danger is to you personally first and then in any flammable material(ie grass, wood, etc.)) near your set-up which could set nearby bldgs, equip, etc on fire.

My setup is on sand so my only real danger is to ME! You definately gotta be careful. Just the boiling mixture on your skin would be ugly let alone a fire.

BULLSEYE BILL
04-03-2006, 04:58 PM
Mike Gillmore posted this link over yonder in the Forum. Download all 33 pages, it's worth the read if your considering this process.

www.queenrightcolonies.com (http://www.queenrightcolonies.com)

Under "Hot Dip Parafin Treatment"
click on "read the whole story"
You will be able to download a full report.

[ April 03, 2006, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: BULLSEYE BILL ]

honeyman46408
04-03-2006, 05:53 PM
OK Dan

Are you ready to bring one of your nice boxes to the next meeting and give a talk about the process :cool:

2rubes
04-21-2006, 05:38 AM
Hi, my husband made a home made burner and I posted pictures of it here http://www.countryrubes.com/pages/13/index.htm
This idea is from our brother-in-law and it works amazingly well. One end of the tube has a connector that fits into the propane tank, and the other end is a small diamenter copper tube (held on by gas fittings) taped to a stiff wire. This contraption fits into a 2" pipe that was welded underneath the tank. The pipe has an elbow that is centered directly under the tank and points up. When lit, the flame comes out of the elbow and hits the tank like the flame of a stove hits a pan. Its controled by the valve on the propane tank, but we are going to get a regulator so we have more control. Right now, it sounds like a jet taking off.
My hubby is worried that someone will try this and melt their face off or burn their house down, so please be careful. We take no responsibility for your actions , we just want to show you what we are doing.
We wrapped our tank with foil paper and that also helps to keep the heat in.
Again, please be careful, keep a pail of water close by and of course, a fire extingisher and hose. We just dipped 90 screened bottom boards, and then a friend came over and dipped 95 deep supers. It hardly made a dent in the amount.
Janet

Dan Williamson
03-17-2007, 07:55 AM
FYI

I called Pacific Coast Chemical Company this week to inquire about their rosin. The price quoted to me was $1.45/lb with 50lb minimum. Last time I bought it (a year ago) it was 1.09/lb.

They charge an extra $5 to put the rosin in a box. By the time I added up the shipping and extra fees... (ie rural delivery, boxing it etc) they totaled to more than a 50% increase over the 1.45/lb.

Mann Lake sells the Gum rosin for 1.79/lb. Although the per lb cost is more, the shipping costs were significantly less at least to my area.

Focus on Bees
03-17-2007, 09:00 AM
Ok, after reading this post I have a question for you ; what is rosin ??

rainesridgefarm
03-18-2007, 09:58 AM
rosin is the gum collected from various trees depending on what you want for it. I good example is rosin for bows. But the rosin that you get from pacific coast or mann lake is mixed with parrafin to boil into the wood of a hive to make them last for sometimes 15-25 years.

Patrick Scannell
03-18-2007, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the definition of rosin. Why is it used in this application?
In what way is a rosin+paraffin mixture better than pure paraffin?

rainesridgefarm
03-18-2007, 02:05 PM
I have done it both ways with and without. I do not see a differenct yet. Maybe time will tell. 15 years vs 20 years.

BULLSEYE BILL
03-19-2007, 09:30 AM
>In what way is a rosin+paraffin mixture better than pure paraffin?

I have wondered that myself. It would make a good question for The Classroom and Jerry Hays in the ABJ.

Dan Williamson
03-19-2007, 09:39 AM
It would be a heck of alot cheaper.

Michael Bush
03-19-2007, 05:53 PM
I decided to do 2 parts beeswax and 1 part rosin. I have about a hundred boxes sixty bottoms and sixty tops dipped so far. About two hundred more boxes to go...

BULLSEYE BILL
03-19-2007, 10:24 PM
That is a lot of beeswax! How many pounds did it take to fill that tank?

And how hot are you taking the beeswax?

How long per box/cycle?

Are you direct heating the tank of beeswax?

Direct heating the parafin was scary enough, I don't think I could do it with beeswax.

Joseph Clemens
03-19-2007, 11:28 PM
Do you think that used kettles like the ones in the link below would be suitable for this task?

http://eeclink.com/products/search/default.asp?cat=KETTLES

Dan Williamson
03-20-2007, 06:10 AM
I thought about beeswax, but I assumed that the flash point for beeswax is much lower than for paraffin and I couldn't heat the wax as hot as I want.

Also I was concerned that I may potentially permeate the wood with wax that carried disease or something. Maybe its not likely, but I wanted to be cautious.

thesurveyor
03-20-2007, 06:59 AM
This seems like alot of work. I am going to coat my hive bodies with fiberglass resin. It is already made, just add the hardener. It should last for as many years as the rosin-parrafin. I am curious as to what the board thinks. This is what boats are coated with, except they call it gelcoat, but same difference. The wood could not get wet through the resin, so I would think this would be as good or even better.

I know I have coated in hive feeders with the resin, and it holds up very well.

TheSurveyor

Dan Williamson
03-20-2007, 07:13 AM
don't you have to paint on the resin? I mainly hot dip because I hate painting.... I can do 7 assembled med boxes at a time in my tank and several tops/ bottom boards etc....along with the boxes.... If I put the boxes unassembled in the tank I can do alot more.... I had 10 unassembled meds... 10 unassembled deeps and 20 migratory covers in the tank at once with room for more.... The dip for me lasts 15min and they are done...

I suspect the fiberglass resin would take more time to apply.

thesurveyor
03-20-2007, 07:43 AM
No, the resin once cured is hard as glass. It should last for years. No painting required. The resin in basically, what some call liquid glass.

I am just unsure what the UV does to the product over a 20 year period. I know after 20 years of exposure, a boat will turn milky looking, but the surface is still impenetrable. The color would look like the original woodenware underneath the resin. Natural color, no paint.

I just bought a gallon at O'Reily's auto parts. It cost $36.46/gal including sales tax. That includes the hardener. So cost wise, it is very reasonable. It will cover, as much as a gal on paint would. So I am thinking several complete hives. You could even add additional coats to increase longevity.

TheSurveyor

Dan Williamson
03-20-2007, 08:03 AM
I guess my point is that you still have to apply the resin with a brush or roller or something....

I don't think dipping 2-3 boxes at a time is efficient but if you can do alot like I can do with my tank... then you have a fairly efficient process in terms of time spent applying.

It sounds like your product would last a long time.. but I need an efficient means of protecting the wood... My next dip will probably be 150 boxes, 25-30 bottom boards, 30 migratory tops, and some nuc boxes...

I just don't want to paint (or apply resin) BY HAND to that much equipment.

Its just what works for me.... If you only had a few hives or a few boxes to do.... then it would probably be a great idea to do what you are doing...

Michael Bush
03-20-2007, 06:36 PM
>That is a lot of beeswax! How many pounds did it take to fill that tank?

I just fed chunks in as I went. It took a bit.

>And how hot are you taking the beeswax?

I'm shooting for 250 F but it seems that 230 F is more common. If I can get it to 250 F (which seems to require calm warm weather) I can get them to simmer pretty well all along. Of course 1/3 of it is gum rosin. So far I've dipped sixty lids, sixty bottom boards and 200 boxes and I have a full tank and I've used 50 pounds of rosin and I suppose about 100 pounds of beeswax. But I'm sure I still have most of that left.

>How long per box/cycle?

When I can get it to 250 F I've been setting the timer for 8 minutes but it takes me several to get them in and out, so I'd guess they get about 10 or 12 minutes in. They simmer really well and the wax soaks in well.

>Are you direct heating the tank of beeswax?

Yes.

>Direct heating the parafin was scary enough, I don't think I could do it with beeswax.

They are both scary. I keep a candy/frying thermometer in the wax. It makes for a long day as it takes several hours for me to get it hot and then I have to watch it so it doesn't boil over from the boxes boiling too fast. I have not had trouble getting the wax too hot (as in flash point hot), but it has boiled over from the boxes bubbling so much when they get warmed up well.

BULLSEYE BILL
03-20-2007, 07:19 PM
I was guessing about 150 pounds, I had to have help moving it off the stove when I was done or when setting up. (I sold Mike my old tank and have another one being made.)

220 F to 230 F was as hot as I let it get with paraffin, I had three electric burners, two on high and one on medium high, and it would top out at around 220 F depending on the outside temperature and wind.

I would put the parts in and set the timer for 15 minutes, so I guess that buy the time I got them out they were in the tank for about 18 minutes. Sometimes I would forget the timer or get busy doing something else and they would boil for a great time longer. :rolleyes:

I know that we have discussed the flash point of paraffin in previous threads, but I seem to remember that the flash point of wax is quite a bit lower. We should mind people that this is very dangerous and great care should be taken if they decide to do this.

The bubbling and boiling over you have noted is the result of wet lumber, or perhaps water in the wax you started with. Pay close attention to any high moisture content in your wood and you will notice an increase in foaming in the tank.

Michael Bush
03-21-2007, 04:58 AM
When I could only get the wax to about 220 F it was taking about 15 to 20 minutes to get the wood good and hot and boiling.

The wood seems to keep the temperature down pretty well since it's boiling off water.

Because of the foam I pretty much could not leave it unattended for more than a couple of minutes. I wonder if the rosin contributes also to the foam. The foam looks very different than when I've had beeswax with water at the bottom boiling. Shinier and more surface tension on the bubbles.

Dan Williamson
03-21-2007, 06:09 AM
Got my Rosin from Mann Lake yesterday... I have to say that they package it much better than Pacific Coast Chemical company. Mann Lake packaged it in a round cylinder. Pacific Coast Just tossed a 50lb back into a box and taped it up.... There was rosin powerder coming out of the box when I got it....

Two thumbs up to Mann Lake for better packaging.

Foaming... I don't know if the rosin contributes to it or not but I can say that I had some water that had collected on some wood and I put it in there.... WOW.... It was like a science experiment that almost went bad.... I didn't get an overflow but it came pretty darn close... I didn't know what to do..... There was more water in the nuc box than I thought and it was a violent reaction. Be careful.....

Mike have you run some water over your dipped equipment to see it bead up and run off? Its awesome!

rainesridgefarm
03-23-2007, 09:59 AM
the unit i use is a old kelly bottling tank with a double boiler. I have been using water in it. Can I get it hotter by using oil in it instead. This way i do not have to worry about low water levels. And the oil can get hotter the water it think. any thoughts?

Michael Bush
03-23-2007, 08:57 PM
>the unit i use is a old kelly bottling tank with a double boiler. I have been using water in it. Can I get it hotter by using oil in it instead. This way i do not have to worry about low water levels. And the oil can get hotter the water it think. any thoughts?

Is the point that the water will boil so it will not get hotter than 212 F? If you want it hotter, then you don't need a double boiler.

How hot do you want to get it? What will keep the oil from getting too hot?

rainesridgefarm
03-24-2007, 07:52 AM
the control on it goes to 250 deg. it boils the water but the parrafin nevers gets past 200. I think the extra 50 deg would speed up the process and eliminate element burn out. I just need to know what kind of oil if I can use it. I do not want to use a direct flame to heat the tank like the others have done, too many fires......

thesurveyor
04-02-2007, 06:09 AM
Not sure if anyone has posted this link, but it seems to be dead on what has been discussed on the thread.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/01-051.pdf

TheSurveyor

flathead
04-03-2007, 10:11 PM
http://zacharyfarmsllc.com/dipping_boxes_in_paraffin.htm

keqwow
05-15-2007, 08:37 PM
Anyone have a good source for large quantities of paraffin wax?

Alan
05-15-2007, 09:28 PM
I would try Betterbee, if they have it in stock. There is also a candle supply place in PA, but I can't remember the name. Both had the best prices I could find, around.90-.95/#, better than the wax manufacturing plant in my area.

Alan

Curtis
05-16-2007, 04:11 AM
I use the discarded wax from a local candle manufacture. They pull off about 5 gal to make sure there is no water in it. The water doesn't hurt my operation as I heat it above 300 anyway. It evaporates. Anyway mine is free for the picking up.
Curtis

Ross
05-16-2007, 07:55 AM
Found this on-line......

But the most surprising result in the 20-year test was that window
units treated with a simple water repellent (1.5 percent paraffin
wax in mineral spirits plus 10 percent exterior varnish resin with
no chemical preservative) performed as well as did the water-
repellent preservative (which contained both wax and a chemical
preservative). This showed that a non-chemical water repellent
like paraffin wax with a small amount of resin, such as exterior
varnish, was capable of providing protection to wood exposed above
ground to the elements for 20 years in a northern climate.

Sounds like boiling is not necessary at all.


The water-repellent treatment is easily done before or after
construction and before painting. A simple formula, easily
prepared is:

- Exterior varnish 3 cups

- Paraffin wax 1 ounce

- Mineral Spirits, or
paint thinner, or
turpentine Add to make 1 gallon

Treatment is best done by dipping the wood for 1 to 3 minutes in
the solution. If dipping is inconvenient, liberal brush
application can be made - paying particular attention to heavy
treatment of all board ends and joints. The treated surface can be
painted after 2 or 3 days of warm weather. In fact, paint should
last longer over the treated surface than over untreated wood.


http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/HPTP.NSF/1d8fa6562d011533852565d10061946d/e1bbfe6c79704835852565c50054b449?OpenDocument

Ross
05-16-2007, 08:34 AM
Information from Australia
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/01-051.pdf

denny
05-16-2007, 09:28 PM
Within the past year I've gotten to know a fellow beekeeper who's been hot wax dipping his hives for many years, ...Charles Andros, of Linden Apiaries in Walpole,NH.

He does a low-tech, but entirely satisfactory job at hot paraffin dipping beehive components using a 55 gal drum supported on bricks atop a large rock on his property. He uses wood to fuel the fire underneath the drum.

He recently hot wax dipped some equipment for me, and I brought along my video camera to get some shots which I think you folks might like to see....

Here's a still frame of the set-up........

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image4.jpg

And here's a short video showing the paraffin boiling.......

http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/?action=view&current=HotWaxDipping-Clip013.flv

He dips the parts for 15 minutes at about 275-300 degrees. It does a great job, and you can watch the air bubbles come out of the wood when first submerged into the drum. That bungee cord over the hive body on top is holding the pieces below ,....under the boiling wax.

Here's some hives which he hot wax dipped over 20 years ago....

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image9.jpg

Ross
05-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Anybody figured out what this does to Titebond glue?

Curtis
05-17-2007, 02:37 PM
I dip my wood before assembly.
I have no problems.
Curtis

Michael Bush
05-17-2007, 09:12 PM
>Anybody figured out what this does to Titebond glue?

I glue the shims on the tops and then nail and then dip. They stay on fine. I also glue the blocks on the bottom board/feeders and then dip them and they do fine as well. Of course I wait for the glue to dry. :)

John F
05-21-2007, 09:16 AM
Anybody figured out what this does to Titebond glue?
I emailed the titebond folks and asked about II and III and hot dipping. The response was that these glues begin to weaken at 120F. So I had to start asking more questions after that. Yes it will regain its strength when it cools. They do not know if hot paraffin will act as a solvent. ...

Anyway, it finally came down to "try it and if it works then you are OK."

Given Michael's experience, I would give it a go and just be gentle while things are hot. (Oh, and yes, this is for cured glue.)

It would be great if someone that has used these these glues on boxes that were hot dipped told us about their experiences.

Dan Williamson
05-21-2007, 11:14 AM
I use the Elmers Probond polyurethane glue on my equipment and it doesn't seem even remotely effected by 300deg heat.

http://www.elmers.com/products/msds/mp9401.htm

I did dip some equipment for a friend who had used regular wood glue (I don't know what type or brand) and some of it didn't hold up well.

Michael Bush
05-21-2007, 09:35 PM
Mine is Titebond II exterior glue.

Troy
10-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I like the idea of dipping the wood before assembly. This would allow me to make a smaller dipping box and use less wax and rosin too.

I can think of a few problems with this though.....

1. Does the wood ever twist or warp after dipping? This might make final assembly more difficult.

2. Does the glue stick to the waxed wood? I imagine the polyurethane glues would work better than Titebond. What type of glue do you use?

3. Do you paint your boxes? From what I have read some people go ahead and paint them as they come out of the dip tank, and the paint sucks into the wood real nice as it cools. This might be a little more tricky with the disassembled pieces.

Michael Bush
10-21-2007, 06:42 PM
>1. Does the wood ever twist or warp after dipping?

No.

> This might make final assembly more difficult.

It's not convenient to dip them before assembly. I tried it. The wax doesn't flow between the boards well.

>2. Does the glue stick to the waxed wood?

Not at all. Glue them and assemble them. Then wax them.

> I imagine the polyurethane glues would work better than Titebond. What type of glue do you use?

Titebond II.

>3. Do you paint your boxes?

I don't.

> From what I have read some people go ahead and paint them as they come out of the dip tank, and the paint sucks into the wood real nice as it cools. This might be a little more tricky with the disassembled pieces.

Never tried it.

denny
10-21-2007, 07:42 PM
Does the wood ever twist or warp after dipping?


During dipping, I have gotten warping on sections of boxes that had knots on or near the edge,... such as you might find on NOT so top of the line wooden ware. In fact if I choose wooden ware for dipping in the future, I will try to make sure, if at all possible, to make, or purchase boxes with the least imperfections as possible.

Dan Williamson
10-22-2007, 06:04 AM
I like the idea of dipping the wood before assembly. This would allow me to make a smaller dipping box and use less wax and rosin too.

I can think of a few problems with this though.....

1. Does the wood ever twist or warp after dipping? This might make final assembly more difficult.

2. Does the glue stick to the waxed wood? I imagine the polyurethane glues would work better than Titebond. What type of glue do you use?

3. Do you paint your boxes? From what I have read some people go ahead and paint them as they come out of the dip tank, and the paint sucks into the wood real nice as it cools. This might be a little more tricky with the disassembled pieces.

Yes the wood can warp if there is too much moisture in the wood.

polyurethane seems to work ok after being dipped.

I do not paint my boxes.

I have done it both ways. I personally feel that assembling the boxes before dipping is the best. HOWEVER. when doing a couple hundred boxes it can be a huge timesaver to dip unassembled. You can't just drop a stack of lumber in. You need to put each piece in separately... and then I will dip them for up to 30 min at 300 deg... Not all sides will get evenly dipped unless you take a wood stick or something like that and move the wood around. You have to be extremely careful of splashing. The wood seems to get well dipped. I can do approx 30-40 unassembled meds at a time this way. Assembled I can do approx 7 med at once with some various smaller pieces (lids, bottoms, etc)

If you have the time... I'd say dip them assembled after glueing with polyurethane. Much less warping this way as well.

BULLSEYE BILL
10-23-2007, 09:33 AM
If you have the time... I'd say dip them assembled after glueing with polyurethane.

That is my preferred way.

Jeffzhear
12-09-2007, 08:58 AM
Particular brand of polyurethane? I've have been using titebond III but will switch if it makes a difference, since I am going to dip equipment this spring.

Also, I have some bottom boards made with plywood, and some covers...anyone have any experience with dipping plywood? My initial thought is that I could have delamination issues with plywood. I didn't see this discussed in this thead.

BULLSEYE BILL
12-09-2007, 08:56 PM
I don't know that it makes any difference, I use gorilla glue.

I have dipped some inner covers, and telescoping lids that are made with plywood but they are not exposed to the weather so... it's hard to say how they would do being exposed.

I have dipped some SBB's that had been previously painted. The paint had started coming off so I tossed a couple of them in the tank. I hadn't noticed lately how they are doing.

Dan Williamson
12-10-2007, 05:59 AM
I make my migratory covers with 3/4" plywood. I haven't dipped any thinner plywood than that but it holds up perfectly well at 300deg.

Jeffzhear
12-11-2007, 04:32 PM
Dan, ty...I appreciate knowing that. I am going to make migratory covers out of plywood and dip them...thanks again, Jeff:)

Dan Williamson
12-12-2007, 07:12 AM
I should note that I DO put my cleats on the migratory covers etc BEFORE dipping them. This might avoid some warping I don't know.