Permacomb

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I would like some input from anyone who has used Permacomb. I saw the ad in ABJ and e-mailed for info. John Seets (jseets@northropgrumman.com) sent me a word document and the product looks promising. It comes in mediums only and costs $3.50 per frame in case lots only (10), plus shipping. It's plastic, fully drawn out, (sorry, no 4.9), and durrable enough to be pressure washed at the car wash, up to 220 degrees! Worker size cells only. He said that he has used it for 27 years so I know that someone out there has had to have used it.
Thanks, Bill

[Michael Bush]

I wonder how many people would have to want it to make it practical for them to produce 4.9mm or 4.85 or something similar. This sounds like just what I want, except the wrong size. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I thought I remembered hearing of such a thing, but couldn't find anything on it.

[Michael Bush]

I wonder if you got wax the right temprature if you could dunk it and get walls thick enough to leave small cells. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael wrote;
I wonder how many people would have to want it to make it practical for them to produce 4.9mm or 4.85 or something similar. This sounds like just what I want, except the wrong size.

Reply;
I would imagine if it has been used for more than 27 years, and they have not produced anything except mediums, they are not likely to make anything else. I e-mailed John and asked him about it, I'll keep you informed.

Michael
I thought I remembered hearing of such a thing, but couldn't find anything on it.

Reply;
I would e-mail John at the address in my above post. His document has some nice pictures and more information. I think that I will place an order.

The selling points that sold me are;
Fully drawn plastic comb - not foundation
Cells drawn on both sides at normal angle
Longevity - buy it once
No assembly right out of the box
Boilable - steam clean
Wax moth and hive beetle resistant
Unalterable by the bees
Use for both honey and brood
One piece molded with ears
Indestructible
Fast extracting speeds, 900 - 1100 rpm
Will not absorb chemicles
Unnaffected by high pressure hose
100% worker cells
No acceptance problem by bees
Guaranteed for 10 years, except the ears
Comes with 9 & 10 frame reversible strip spacers

For every pound of wax the bees don't have to make we get eight pounds more honey.
A bee package takes off right away.
A good reason to quit those heavy deeps.

Is this too good to be true? And why hasn't it been in wider use?

Oh well, I tried perco at half the cost and put up with the brace comb and the poor cell drawing habits, I can try this too. So far this hobby has been cheeper than bars and, well all that goes with that...

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I emailed him and ordered 10 frames. I will try waxing it to get smaller cells and see how it goes.

I agree, it's hard to believe this hasn't caught on, but maybe he hasn't advertised enough. I have lost so many nice combs to wax moths this sounds wonderful. I haven't had to deal with small hive beetles but it sounds like they would have a hard time existing in it. It does sound heavy, which may be part of the reason for only making mediums.

I think you're right, if he hasn't changed it in 27 years, it probably won't happen. Unless someone could offer to finance the venture of making the old 4.85 size.

I would think it would be a big jump start for a swarm to have drawn comb for the queen to start laying in.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. With my bad back, I hope that I have bought my last deep.
I do wonder though, if a colony had no other comb than this worker size comb available to them,(no other foundation), what would they do to make drone cells? Perhaps fill in any available space like they would for a queen cell? Humm...
Bill

[Michael Bush]

Bees will build stuff in that "bee space" that they are not supposed to. I would guess you are right, they would build some somewhere.

[dharbert]

Michael,

I talked to Mr. Seets and he told me that the bees will build drone comb on the bottom of the frames because the space there is larger than on a regular frame. I am going to order 20 frames and see how well it works. I just found out I can't lift any heavy weights so this might be the answer.

[This message has been edited by dharbert (edited January 06, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

Looking at the listed weight and from my experience with RiteCell etc. I would say the perma comb will be heavier. The medium depth will be lighter. If you want lighter, plastic won't help. On the other hand, it sounds wonderful not to be fighting the moths anymore and to have that kind of jump start for a colony.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael,
All my bee equipment is 70 miles away, could you weigh one fully drawn medium if you have one and one of the permacomb when you get them? I am thinking that there will be very little difference, obviously the plastic should be heavier, but wax is heavy too. Ten frames with shipping box is 14 lbs, so the permacomb should be about 1.2 lbs. Thanks,
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I will try to weigh them and let you know, but I know from Rite cell that a fully drawn plastic foundation weighs noticeably more than a fully drawn wax one. I'm not saying it's a lot, but I have to take it into account when I load my extractor or it will get out of balance.

[dharbert]

When I talked to Mr. Seets, he told me a box of 20 frames weighed 28 lbs.

[Michael Bush]

Maybe I have found the fly in the ointment for PermaComb. There are basic dimensional differences. The first clue is looking at his demonstration photo of a full super. The picture shows frames that were obviously connected solidly between the box above and the one below. This may be partly due to no bars top and bottom. Studies in the early part of the previous century showed that thicker bars helped to prevent this kind of attachment. Of course thinner ones allow more honey per frame. PermaComb has cells all the way to the top and bottom. This attaching is probably acceptable in supers, although more messy but I wouldn't want it in the brood chamber.

But there are other dimensions that vary from the norm. These are based on the document sent to me giving the diminsions. Also note that the documentation says:
"Depth: 6" (Ideal super depth is 6 3/8”)".

A standard medium box is 6 5/8"

To summerize:
PermaComb/Standard frame dimensions:
PermaComb Standard Difference
main comb width: 17 1/2" 17 3/4" -1/4"
frame height: 6" 6 1/4" -1/4"

Correct dimensions for box:
PermaComb Standard Difference
Box length: 19 1/2" 19 3/4" -1/4"
Frame rest Notch width: 1/2" 3/8" +1/8"
(to make the 19" bars come out right with a bee space on the sides.

To put it another way a beespace is between 1/4" and 3/8". In a standard Lanstroth hive box:
PermaComb Standard Difference
Frame End Beespace 3/8" 1/4" 1/8"
Bottom Beespace 5/8" 3/8" 1/4"

3/8" on the end bars is still in the outside tolerance for beespace, but it is right on the outside. The 5/8" on the bottom is 1/4" over the outside tolerance for beespace.

I still think if it works as well as I hope, and I can coat it with wax to get small cells, I will go to it. If the small cell move doesn't work I may use it for extracted honey supers. I make most of my own equipment anyway and it's close enough to standard that I can still put standard lids, inner covers, escape boards etc. on.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

That 1/4 inch of extra space glared at me too, however I thought that I might glue a venere along the bottom if it created a problem. It would be a good area for drone cells if they decided that they needed them. I hadn't thought of the top bar problem. If you want a cell building blockade between the frames (verticaly), how about filling a few rows with fiberglas resin, wax, or some other acceptable filler?
Bill

[Michael Bush]

Both ideas (the veneer and the filling) have crossed my mind. I think the bee space is the first thing to address. The end space is larger, but still within bee space tolerance (if everything is perfectly centered etc.). The bottom space is the one that is completely out. I can either make my own 6 3/8" boxes, cut some down or add a veneer. The advantages to adding it is it will create that bottom bar effect and allow the use of normal boxes. I am begining to think I'll need 10 or 20 more frames to do a decent test. I still think the idea is wonderful.

Too bad they didn't make them 1/4" deeper.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I hate to assume anything, BUT, if they are truly as durrable as advertised they will outlast the box. So the least hassle would be to dedicate the box, mark or brand it, throw it on the table saw and zip off the 1/4 inch and call it good.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I think it would be worth finding out which works better. Cutting the box down or adding the strip. I don't mind cutting the box down if PermaComb works as well as I hope it does. Only the bees will tell.

[dragonfly]

Is there a website that has photos of these? I haven't been able to find much on the web with any information. Thanks

[Michael Bush]

There is nothing on the web. I emailed Mr. Seets at jseets@northropgrumman.com. He sent a Word document that had diminsions, descriptions and pictures. He has been quite responsive and good to work with. I'm sure he'd be happy to send them to you.

[thesurveyor]

Could someone post the information in the document from Mr. Seets? I believe I will order about 40 frames to try.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

You will need to email him to find out what the shipping will be. The document is fairly long with some pictures and I have no way to post them.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Here's how to figure shipping:
Go to ups.com, go to the rates page. Fill in the form, you will need your zip code and the zip code from where they will be shipped from, either 90670 or 21228. One may give you a better rate, it did not for me.
If you order the ten pack case you will need the weight 14 lbs. or 28 lbs for the 20 count case. You will also need the dimensions 7 x 20 x 10.5 (ten) or 19.5 x 20 x 7.5 (20).
It gonna cost me $20 bucks per 20 count case. Thats ground rate. Oh well...
Bill

[thesurveyor]

Michael could you email the attachment to me I have contact Mr. Seets and he tried to email me the attachment but it did not get through, I would appreciate it if you could.

Mail it to suttles@icu2.net

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[thesurveyor]

Forget the previous post, I got the Word Document. Thanks anyway. Looks like this could be something big.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[John Seets]

Hey Guys! I didn't realize I was so "popular". I was just made aware of this site and maybe I can address some of your concerns regarding the PermaComb directly since I've been using it since '75. Please, let me know what worries are STILL an issue.
Thanx.

PS: Is it possible to post documents on this site for others to view?

------------------
John Seets, East Coast PermaComb Distributor

[Michael Bush]

You could email info@beesource.com and ask if he would let you post some pictures. My guess is he doesn't want to get into the advertising business. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I guess I have a lot of hopes for what I may be able to do with PermaComb.

The biggest hope is to be able to coat it with wax to get smaller cells and regress bees with less hassle and more consistent results. If this works and small cells relive my mite problems, then the next problem it could solve is one I don't have yet, but hope not to, the Small Hive Beetle.

The other obvious gain is no more wax moths.

Then there is the simple jump start of having drawn comb to put in a new hive so the queen can lay immediately and there is already somwhere for the bees to put stores.

My concerns are mostly to do with cross connections. Probably they will mostly be vertically between boxes.

The first is dimensional. The PermaComb is 1/4" too short for a standard medium box to have standard bee space. I can live with this if all of the rest of the advantages come through. As Bill mentioned above, the comb will outlast the box, and worst case I could cut the box on down to shallow depth someday.

The second concern is the two edged sword of cells all the way to the top and bottom. I know, both from experience and from studies done at the begining of the last century, that bees are more likely to connect between boxes when there are thinner bars. And PermaComb has no bars. This of course is wonderful from the point of view of fitting more cells in the comb, but not helpful in the cross connection department.

Then, of course, the last is, what will the bees do with it? I have no idea until I try it, and I am very excited about trying it.

I actually remember now, seeing advertisements for this 27 years ago. I was too poor to consider it then. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Barry]

John -

Contact me in private and I will find a place to post a document for this board.

-Barry

info@beesource.com

[Barry]

Michael, you wrote:
"I wonder if you got wax the right temprature if you could dunk it and get walls thick enough to leave small cells"

I just don't see this working out. If the cell size/spacing on Permacomb is say 5.2 mm, it would require extremely thick cell walls to get it to 4.9 mm. I doubt the bees would build 3 mm thick walls. Give it a try and see if I'm wrong.

Dadant will be/is selling plastic 4.9. It will be in their 2003 catalog due out soon. I don't know if it will be wax coated or not.

Regards,
Barry

[thesurveyor]

Hope I am not stepping on any toes, but 3mm is not that much space. Furthermore it would only be 1.5mm because it would be half for each side of the cell or am I looking at it the wrong way. I believe it will work, but We wont know until we try it.

Cya
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

My guess is I will have the opposite problem. The difference between a 5.4mm cell and 4.9mm cell is .5mm. This is a half of a millimeter. Since this is taken up on both sides this is only .25mm per wall. By the time you put a light coat of wax on both walls, I'm more worried that it will leave too small of a cell. I think hotter wax will leave a thinner wall and cooler will leave a thicker wall, but if it's too thick I think the bees will tear it down until it's tolerable.

I'm not so interested in the plastic foundation as the predrawn cells. They can't draw it wrong when it's already drawn. They could work at removing all the wax inside, but I don't think they will remove any more than they feel is necessary. The inertia is all in the right direction. It's already drawn and already small and there is only so much they can do to it.

I'm also sick of the wax moths, which were worse this year than in 27 years of beekeeping, and I am afraid of eventually battling the small hive beetles.

[Michael Bush]

Barry said: I doubt the bees would build 3 mm thick walls.

Michael: I just realized this is what you said. You seem to be under the impression that I expect the bees to build the walls. The wax coating from dipping it in wax, would be what makes the walls thicker. I don't expect the bees to build any walls at all. I only expect the bees to feed the brood and cap it. Of course, in the end they will do whatever they want, no matter what I imagine. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[thesurveyor]

It is worth using, for the simple reason of the wax moth. I think this was the worst year for me also. They were a constant battle this year, My hives were strong and survived, but My father had a hive that lost a queen and the moths made a huge mess of the remains of the hive. It is worth the costs to me just to keep the moths from destroying the hive. I have ordered and sent the money for 4 cases to try them out. I told Mr. Seets of the board and I see he has joined the discussion. Glad to have you aboard Mr. Seets.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[txbeeguy]

So what was the final answer to where
Seet's Word document can be found?

[Barry]

Hi Michael -

Sorry, that should have been .3mm, not 3mm. I guess from your post, Permacomb must have pretty high cell walls (can't remember the different plastic brands apart). I wasn't aware of that. In that case, you may have better success. Let us know how you get it waxed and what happens.

-Barry

[Michael Bush]

Maybe it would help if I explain. PermaComb has FULLY DRAWN cell walls. If you look at the picture of 9 frames in a ten frame hive there is only a small amount of added wall and caps. It is full depth ready to be capped for brood. It is not just embossed walls on a plastic foundation.

This is what I'm excited about. A queen should just start laying because it's already drawn. No waiting for the bees to draw it.

[Barry]

Hi all -

The Word document on Permacomb has been converted to HTML and is now posted here: http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/permacomb.htm

I will make a hyperlink to a Bulletin Board home page from the Digital Dialogue page.

-Barry

[Russ]

This is interesting reading. When dipping the plastic comb would it help to have the plastic comb in hot water so the wax would't cool to fast and more of it would run off. Just asking another question. Dale in S.E. Ks.

[txbeeguy]

Thanks Barry for posting the link. I was hoping to also take a look at the photos (I believe I recall that the Word document had some photos of this Perma Comb included).

I've searched the web and don't seem to find any pictures of it anywhere. I'm trying to understand how a product such as this has been around for 27 or 28 years and hasn't "caught on like wildfire" in the beekeeping community! There must be some 'draw back' that we're missing...

[Barry]

I will add 2 photos to the page as soon as John sends them to me. I was not able to extract the photos from the Word document.

-Barry

[Michael Bush]

>When dipping the plastic comb would it help to have the plastic comb in hot water so the wax would't cool to fast and more of it would run off.

I have thought of heating the comb to keep the wax from getting as thick. I don't know how thick I want it yet. I'll have to calculate what the actual inside diameter of a 4.9mm cell is. It's 4.9mm from the inside to the outside. This measurment is assuming (correctly I believe) that the bees will make the walls the same thickness. But here they will be thicker. It may take a bit to get the temperature of the wax and the PermaComb correct, but I think it could work.

[thesurveyor]

I am excited about trying the Permacomb, just because what would normally take time to draw out from foundation or plastic embossed foundation, is already done and should give my bees a head start going into the honey flow. Also I am planning on ordering 4 packages of bees, which means I will not have to take drawn comb from my existing hives to help the new packages get started. This looks to be a promising product and I think it will work on the regression back to 4.9 cells.

Does anyone know if Mr. Seets has an idea of how the wax may work on the regression?

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited January 10, 2003).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

He doesn't believe that regression is the key. I asked about 49mm comb.
John's reply;
"No way they will make a new $250k mold for 4.9 mm size cells. Ultimately, I
don't think the Varroa answer will come from that change anyway. Caveat: The
more they use the cells for brood, the more the cells decrease in size
anyway just from usage and I'm still using comb I bought in '75. For comb
that I wanted to clean out, I took them to the quarter car wash, threw them
on the ground and used the wash wand. Worked great."
My take? I have a couple of things that I want to try before I go to the trouble to regress.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

>John's reply;
"No way they will make a new $250k mold for 4.9 mm size cells.

That's about what I expected. And actually I'm not so sure that the current PermaComb coated in wax isn't the better solution anyway. Acceptance will be better and if the bees aren't willing or able to deal with the size they can chew it out but they can't totally rework it.

>Caveat: The more they use the cells for brood, the more the cells decrease in size
anyway just from usage and I'm still using comb I bought in '75.

Research and observation have shown that cocoons will regress the size of brood cells to what the bees consider acceptable and then they chew out the old cocoons until the size is large enough. The size will stabilize at somwhere between 4.7mm and 4.9mm. It will not continue to shrink because the bees will fix it.

>My take? I have a couple of things that I want to try before I go to the trouble to regress.

It has been difficult regressing, and I'm not sure I would recommend the shakedown method. At least I would say you should experiment on some hives first and get the hang of it. But then maybe we are taking it too seriously without seeing the obvious. If "modern" beekeeping was founded on 4.84mm cell foundation, what's wrong with just buying and using 4.9mm foundation? If you do that and you measure the comb you intend to add to the brood nest and only use comb that is smaller in the middle of the nest, then the bees will regress. It may take a while. But if you just keep giving them the small foundation it will happen.

From what I have observed, and I have an observation hive to watch quite closely, and what I have read, I think people are overcomplicating the concepts of regression. The bees will regress if you let them. They may regress faster if you can create a certain amount of momentum in that direction. Momentum caused by things like foundation embossed that size. This requires the bees to rework the base to make a larger size. The only reason the large bees are hesitant to make 4.9mm cells is that they can't climb in them to make them. 5.4mm bees are happy to build 5.1mm cells on 4.9mm foundation. Large cell queens are quite happy to lay in small cells, so the main trick is getting the small cells while you still have large bees.

If you have fully drawn 4.9mm cells the queen will lay in them. The question is what will the nurse bees do after that. I don't think they will chew all of the wax (that I will add) out of the PermaComb to make it larger because it's too much work. They may. Time will tell.

But again the momentum is in the direction of small cells because they are already there. If the bees insist they can chew out the wax, just like they chew out the cocoon laden brood comb and increase the cell size to whatever they desire.

My take:

Even if you don't want to do shakedowns etc. why wouldn't you want to use 4.9mm foundation?

[txbeeguy]

If all this talk about the smaller size cells has to do with reducing or eliminating the varroa problem, I personally welcome you to "experiment". I, for one, however, firmly believe the ultimate solution to the problem lies not with smaller cell sizes or even chemicals but with honeybee genetics. In areas of Russia that I'm very familiar with, they've had varroa for 25+ years and their bees fend off varroa infestation quite successfully. You can call it "Darwinism" or whatever you like but eventually the survival of the specics depends on it's ability to adapt and live in it's environment (an enviroment that includes the varroa mite).

[dickm]

Is this different than Pierco? I have some of their frames and they really are heavy!

Dickm

[John Seets]

Mike, I think you will be disappointed should you decide to dip the PermaComb in hot wax to reduce it's cell size diameter. If I were interested in engaging in this experiment, I would think about spraying beeswax as hot as I could get it without boiling using some kind of HPLV (high pressure low volume) sprayer. Heating the comb would be a good idea - would enhance the wax/plastic bond. The comb should be able to survive 220 degrees F. Lowe's (don't know if you have them in your area) sells a Burgess propane heated fogger designed to vaporize water and insectide for the garden. It goes for fifty some dollars. You might consider this tool for the job. I was thinking of getting one to fog the hives with food-grade mineral oil to treat for varroa. In any case, my inclinations are commensurate with the txbee guy's assessment that Varroa control will ultimatley result from genetic refinement coupled with hygienic behavior. In the meantime, my "experiments" have shown that using essential oil WILL reduce 2ndary Varroa problems such as Parasitic Mite Syndrome which will kill off a hive just as effectively as the Varroa will. You also might want to consider more than 10 frames - experiment on one super and use "stock" comb in another super as a control. My opinion for what it's worth.

[John Seets]

For those of you who are interested in the cell size of PermaComb, the INSIDE DIAMETER of a cell averages 5.07 mm. The CELL-TO-CELL wall thickness is ~.51 mm. Hopes this helps in your assessments.

[John Seets]

Mike, and finally to address another PermaComb issue you brought up. Yes, there is cross-connection between the boxes for both brood and honey supers. I haven't found this to be a problem and actually an advantage. Allow me to elaborate:

1) Brood Boxes: Since PermaComb is 100% worker size cells, the bees will invariably put drone brood on the bottom of the frames. You can leave it there or easily scrape it off with the hive tool. I usually leave it there because I believe that a hive needs some drones for proper hive harmony. When I do scrap it off, I put it in a container for the bees to clean and then I have wax to make candles. If anyone desires more drone brood they can hacksaw a 3 or 4 inch section off the corner or corners of 1 or more frames and the bees will exclusively draw drone comb there.

2) Honey Boxes: Before removing the honey-bound supers for extraction, it is best to "crack" the supers by either turning them around 180 degrees or, (preferred) moving the super 3/4" to one side or the other. Do this a couple hours before removing the supers and that will give the bees time to clean up the broken honey cells between the boxes that were broken when the supers were cracked. This will prevent robbing and a sticky mess by doing this. The extra honey comb on the top or bottom of the frame will stay on the frame during the extraction process. I hope this addresses your concerns.
Thanx.

[Barry]

John wrote:
the cell size of PermaComb, the INSIDE DIAMETER of a cell averages 5.07 mm. The CELL-TO-CELL wall thickness is ~.51 mm.

Hi John -

According to your measurements, we would refer to the cell size of Permacomb as 5.6mm (5.07 + .51 = 5.58). Problem is, we don't know what the inside diameter of 4.9 cells are because we always include the cell opening plus one complete cell wall in this figure. Also, each cell varies in size when the bees build them so this all is taken into account when we measure 10 cells in a row and divide the number by 10. If you would measure 10 cells in a row on the Permacomb and let us know, we can then compare it.

Regards,
Barry

[Michael Bush]

Since the bees aren't building the cell wall in PermaComb, and we don't know if they are the same thickness walls, I don't think the usual method of measuring is a valid measurement of cell size for PermaComb.

To have a useful number that compares to the currently used system for measuring 4.9mm 5.4mm etc. we would need to add the average bee built cell wall thickness to the inside cell size of the PermaComb to come up with a number that is meaninful in the system we currently use to measure cell size.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael wrote;
To have a useful number that compares to the currently used system for measuring 4.9mm 5.4mm etc. we would need to add the average bee built cell wall thickness to the inside cell size of the PermaComb to come up with a number that is meaninful in the system we currently use to measure cell size.

OK, I haven't had my coffee yet. The PC doesn't come waxed, I don't think. Are we assuming that the bees will wax the insides thereby making the cells smaller?
Bill

[John Seets]

Bill, The comb does NOT come pre-waxed. I don't know that they wax the inside of the cells before using it. I DO think they polish the inside of the cells with propolis before storing honey or raisubg brood.

[txbeeguy]

I agree with Bullseye Bill, I didn't quite follow Michael's logic either about needing the bees to build a wax cell wall...

If the measurement is taken from the inside cell wall of one Perma Comb plastic cell and measured to the outside cell wall of an adjoining plastic cell wall, then it seems to me, you have the measurement that you're after. (The bees need do nothing). Isn't this the measurement you're after?

[Michael Bush]

I am sorry. I must not have communicated what I'm trying to say very well. I'll try again.

Let's take the currently used method of measuring cells. You are measuring drawn comb that the bees have built. They have built the walls of this comb and the walls of a a uniform thicknes which we are not taking into account in the measurement system. We measure across 10 cells from the inside of the first cell to the outside of the last and divide this number by 10. This measurment has included the thickness of the cell wall in the number that we are calling the cell size.

What I'm interested in as far as small cell, however, is not really how much area the cells take up. I'm interested in the actual width of the inside of the cell. It is the crowded conditions in the cell that prevent the mites from reproducing. And I'm looking for a measurment that is accurate to a 10th of a millimeter.

In the case of foundation that is drawn by the bees the cell walls are all the same thickness, so we just include the number (because it's simpler) and figure we're comparing apples to apples on the cell wall thickness.

Now I want to know how the cell size on PermaComb compares to the cell size measurement we have been using. No, there is no wax involed in the PermaComb. The problem is that the thickness of the cell wall (which is plastic) is not being determined by the bees building it but by the mold that cast them. They are probably NOT the same thickness as wax comb drawn by bees. In a situation where I'm concerned about tenths of a millimeter it is significant if the walls are different from the bees thickness by as little as a tenth of a millimeter. So in order to compare internal sizes of cells accurately, in this case, I need to allow for differences in cell wall thickness, or put another way, subtract the cell wall thickness from both the drawn wax measurments and the PermaComb measurments.

Did I do any better this time at explaining what I mean?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Yes you did. However John has already posted the dimensions;

'For those of you who are interested in the cell size of PermaComb, the INSIDE DIAMETER of a cell averages 5.07 mm. The CELL-TO-CELL wall thickness is ~.51 mm. Hopes this helps in your assessments.

I would then assume that you only need to subtract the average wax wall thickness from 4.9mm and then subtract that number from 5.07 to determine how much larger the PC is compared to 4.9mm cell size. Eh?

Let us know when you get your PC, I sent my check Friday for ten cases.
Bill

[Barry]

Hi Michael -

I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. I follow your thought and it is exactly what I'm getting at. Only problem is, we don't know what the internal diameter is of a "4.9" cell. We do with the Permacomb, but I'm trying to figure out a way we can start comparing them without knowing the 4.9 cell only size.

If, as John has said, Permacomb measures 55.5mm per 10 cells, the cell size would be 5.55mm. We know that 4.9 foundation if drawn exactly right will produce a cell that is 4.9mm wide. This number includes the cell opening and one wall thickness, so the actual inside diameter of a 4.9mm cell would actually be less than 4.9mm. The thinner the walls are, the closer to an actual 4.9 opening they will bee.

We know that Permacomb has cell walls measuring .5mm. If you subtract .5mm from 5.55, you end up with a hair over 5.0 actual cell opening. This is good if you are after a smaller cell size because the thick walls that Permacomb has helps to make the cell diameter smaller. You get within 1mm, at best, of 4.9. But since the wax cell walls do take up space, it is more likely that you will be about 1.5mm away from what a 4.9 cell built on wax foundation would be. That's still pretty good. Now if you can add wax to reduce it even more .... will be interesting to see!

Regards,
Barry

[Russ]

How about using a Verneer Dial Caliper to measure the inside measurment of the cell size. They are made in MM and Thousands of an Inch. Just make sure you are measuring Apples to Apples. Dale

[Barry]

Hi Dale -

This is extremely difficult to do. The reason we measure 10 cells and divide is to reduce the error factor. Being off just a fraction with one cell will result in big discrepancies across the comb. I took a look at a frame of comb I have here in my house that measures 49mm across 10 cells. The cell walls are so thin that I can't begin to accurately measure them. Even with calipers, unless you can do it under a microscope, you are likely to smash the wax in the process, rendering your measurement false.

Regards,
Barry

[Michael Bush]

I don't have any good fully drawn cells of 4.9. I've only done one regression and they are about 5.1mm so I don't have any 4.9 cells to measure the inside of.

I think the only way you can measure the inside of them, is to cast the cells in plaster and then break it apart and measure ten of the plaster cell casts carefully with a micrometer, add them together and average the results.

I suppose If what I want to end up with is the cell wall, I could measure across ten of these before breaking the same ten plaster cast cells out of the foundation and then measure all ten with the micrometer, add them together, subract from the first measurment and divide by 10. The only micrometer I have is in thousandths of an inch. I'll have to find a metric one.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

OK, you made me do it. I have some nice old hard brood comb in my melt bucket on the back porch. It's cold outside! I took ten measurements of the cell walls mid way from entrance to back, after trimming off the connecting ridge. I had one high reading of .006 and one low reading of .003 and eight readings of .004.
I don't know what that is in MM, but if you have a metric caliper measure a .004 feeler guage or find a conversion table.
Another observation is that the cell opening is much smaller than the dimension mid way back.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

If the .004 measurement is correct that is .1016mm which is close enough to .1mm. This makes PermaComb the equivelant to 5.17mm cell size. Meaning I need to increase the cell wall by .27mm to make it the equivelant to 4.9mm cell size. Or I need to end up with an actual inside to inside size of 4.8mm.

[Michael Bush]

Also, I'm increasing one cell wall by .27mm but I want to coat it with wax which will get added to both sides of that cell wall, so I need a coating of about .13 to .14mm on each side of a cell wall.

[thesurveyor]

I may be wrong, but if the bees feel it is too large they will line the walls, if they feel it is too small they will be forced to use it; however, if you coat the walls with wax they may remove the wax anyway. The bees will do what they want to no matter what we think. Either way I hope it works.

Concerning the violation of bee space, I have a question. Would it be better to place a strip on the bottom of the frames or trim the heigth of the super down to accomodate the shortened PC frame size?

I have a local beekeepers meeting tomorrow, Will bounce the PC idea off the local guys. I hope the PC arrives in time to take to the meeting.

Lastly, I feel that if it only works to increase honey production, it is worth it to me. Some of you may have other ideas on that topic, but not dealing with the wax moth and destruction of comb, is worth alot.

Thesurveyor

[John Seets]

Surveyor,
Regarding PC violation of bee space, please see my Jan 11, 10:14PM posting. Any further questions about this, let me know.
Thanx.

[Michael Bush]

TheSurveyor: I may be wrong, but if the bees feel it is too large they will line the walls,

Maybe they would if it was way too big, but if this was true then they would line the walls of the 5.4mm stuff we now use.

The Surveyor: if they feel it is too small they will be forced to use it; however, if you coat the walls with wax they may remove the wax anyway. The bees will do what they want to no matter what we think.

I'm thinking if it's really too small they will remove it. The experiments in the late 1800's showed that you could get them to lay in cells as small 4.5mm and as large as 5.7mm. However the optimum seems to be between 4.8 and 4.9. If I can get it to come out mostly in that range I think it will work well.

The Surveyor: Either way I hope it works.

So do I. It's really more up to the bees.

The Surveyor: Concerning the violation of bee space, I have a question. Would it be better to place a strip on the bottom of the frames or trim the heigth of the super down to accomodate the shortened PC frame size?

I think I will try both of these and try leaving it as John seems to suggest.

The Surveyor: Lastly, I feel that if it only works to increase honey production, it is worth it to me. Some of you may have other ideas on that topic, but not dealing with the wax moth and destruction of comb, is worth alot.

I agree. Plus someday I may appreciate it against small hive beetles too. But just my losses to wax moths this last year would have been worth it.

John Seets: Yes, there is cross-connection between the boxes for both brood and honey supers. I haven't found this to be a problem and actually an advantage. Allow me to elaborate:

You did elaborate on the drones and cracking the supers, however I'm still not sure I see the "advantage" part of it. I can see where it's still worth it in increased production and in no wax moth problems, but I still don't see the advantage part.

[thesurveyor]

I posted this topic on the Bee-L list server to get some comment from the beekeepers on that list. If you are a member of the BEE-L list you will probably get that soon. I will post anything that is posted that is not been mentioned so far.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I got ten frames of PermaComb today. I didn't have a caliper to measure them so I bought one. According to the caliper I have every cell I measured was about 4.9mm inside diamter, which would translate to about 5.0mm cell size. This is smaller than reported by John Seets, and he probably has the "official" measurements, so I'm wondering if my calipers are correct. Anyway, I'll let you know when I get a chance to try wax coating and measuring the cell size.

I still don't get the dimensional differences. The ends are an 1/8" short of the size of the medium frame I have here. (not counting the tabs that stick out in every direction except up). The bottom, as previously stated is 1/4" short, but there are tabs that stick out there also.

Other than that it is awsome stuff.

[Michael Bush]

Questions for John Seets:

Do you know what the purpose of the tabs around the edges are? I don't get them. They seem to be inviting cross connections in every direction. It's tempting to cut them off, but I would hate to do anything when I don't understand their purpose first.

Do you usually cut off the tabs? Are they just left over from molding?

Do the bees usually connect the tabs on the frame ends with the box wall?

Also, I was still hoping you could elaborate on the "advantages" of them connecting between boxes. I'm still not clear what you percieve as an advantage in that.

Thanks.

[thesurveyor]

Everything considered the product has great potential. I will present it to the local beekeepers tonight and get their comments. I think with the ventilation I picked up from the beeworks kit and the jump start on the comb building by the Permacomb, that I should have a good season. Lets hope the weather cooperates.

I am going to feed the Bee-Pro patties supplied by Mann Lake LTD. I have a post started on the bee forum concerning the Bee-Pro Patties. Would greatly appreciated any comments anyone may have.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[John Seets]

Hi, Mike;

The tabs are left over from the molding process. Leave them or cut them - up to you. In the brood chambers there is some propolizing between the frame ends and the box. If you decide to cut off the tabs, let me know if they still propolize there.

No, I never was able to get the "official" size from the manufacturer. I used a machinist ruler graduated in 100ths of an inch, measured 10 cells inside diameter, took an average and then converted to mm. Your measurements could be more precise depending on the accuracy of the calipers.

Again, the advantages of cross-connect as I see it are: drones, beeswax and slightly more honey stored when used in the honey supers.

Thanx.

John

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Here is an elementary question I should probably know.
If you crack two hive bodies or supers apart like John suggests, at 90 deg. and wait a couple of hours until the bees clean up the mess before working the hive, what happens to the displaced larva?
Do the bees toss them out the door, or stuff em into any available cell?
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I hate to sound like I'm complaining, it's just that some of this takes a bit of rethinking. The advantages of the PermaComb are staggering to me. All the lost combs I've had this year are so frustrating.

Maybe we just need to rethink a lot of this. For instance. If the bottoms of the frames are full of drone comb and we just scrape it off everytime you open the brood nest, won't this act like a mite magnet and just get rid of a lot of mites? It just goes contrary to my way of thinking to want things all connected. That's what we were trying to solve with movable combs.

I was just wondering if the bees would build comb on the ends, but it sounds like it's just propolis.

I do wish I had something to double check the cell measurment, but it looks to me like it's the equivelant of 5.0mm (4.9mm inside + .1mm for the standard bee built wall). This is very close to 4.9mm. I'll have to see if I can get a thin enough coating it to make it 4.9mm. I would say if you used it very long the cocoons would soon fill it up to 4.9mm.

I would point out to those of you worried about weight. PermaComb is heavy. Ten frames weigh 13lbs empty, which is probably why they only make it in medium. Deeps would be very heavy. If you are trying to keep the weight of a box down I would suggest any or all of the following:

8 frame boxes. Not only are they lighter, but those last two frames were farthest from you and the most difficult part to hold up. 8 frames is more compact as well as lighter.

4 frame boxes for supers. You build them half the width of a standard 10 frame box and put two side by side in place of a 10 frame box. Easy to pick up.

Horizontal. As I've mentioned before, I run my hives horizontally and you don't have to lift as high. Also you don't have to move as much to get to anything. If you want to look in the brood nest you just take the lid off of the brood nest. If you want to look at the supers, you take the lid off of some of the supers.

[thesurveyor]

Mike,

That horizontal sounds cool. Do you have a track cut down the side of the box to prevent the frames from collasping on each other, or all your boxes running side by side instead of on top of each other. That sound neat.

On the bee space and brace comb issue, I think that cutting a super to try is not a big issue.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

>That horizontal sounds cool. Do you have a track cut down the side of the box to prevent the frames from collasping on each other, or all your boxes running side by side instead of on top of each other. That sound neat.

I have done a couple of different things, but with the medium depth I think I'd go with the table version. It's a table with regular boxes put on anyway you want that the bees will accept. Here's some pictures. Click on any picture for more detail and descriptions: http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/index.htm

I am having to rethink some of this because I was going only one level of deep frames most of the time, with an occasional two boxes. I think with mediums you'd have to run two and three levels.

>On the bee space and brace comb issue, I think that cutting a super to try is not a big issue.

There is the bottom space problem, but I'm thinking maybe scraping a lot of drone comb out every time you go through it isn't all bad. Then there is the end space. But it sounds like it's not cross combed, so maybe it's ok.

[thesurveyor]

That horizontal stuff is cool. Looks like it would save on your back. Just curious if you have noticed a increase or decrease on no change at all in the honey production using your horizontal system, vs vertical.

One question of your permacomb that you recieved, how does it compare with comb built by your bees. This in reference to depth and wall thickness?

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[txbeeguy]

I don't mean to be speaking for John, but I don't think he was advocating that you turn the boxes 90 deg (that would invite robbing). Also he primarily was taking about 'cracking' honey supers (not brood nest boxes). But to answer your question, most likely the bees would eat the larvae as a form of protein in their diet. I can't recall where I read it (perhaps, "Hive and the Honeybee") but bees can be a little cannibalistic when it comes to larvae.

[thesurveyor]

txbeeguy,

I think we are trying to accomplish two goals here.

1st is increase honey production, by starting with already made comb.

2nd is to raise brood in the same type comb. If you were to inspect the brood nest using the permacomb, you would end up breaking the brace of burr comb that had been built in the brood chamber. Maybe that is what they were referring to. If it will get us back to 4.9mm cell size, it will bee worth loosing a few brood cells that are ripped apart during inspection. It also seems that the brood cells that would be destroyed would be Drone cells anyway.

You are right though if it was in the honey super, it would just be honey and the bees would clean it up anyway.

Sorry for the rambling.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

John said: 2) Honey Boxes: Before removing the honey-bound supers for extraction, it is best to "crack" the supers by either turning them around 180 degrees or, (preferred) moving the super 3/4" to one side or the other. Do this a couple hours before removing the supers and that will give the bees time to clean up the broken honey cells between the boxes that were broken when the supers were cracked. This will prevent robbing and a sticky mess by doing this.

He did not say 90 degrees, he said 180 degrees. But the 3/4" to each side would work as well.

As far as the space for comb on the bottom, mabye it's best to leave the bees some places to do their "things" like raise drone and raise queens. I'm not sure how they would make a queen cell out of a solid plastic one they can't rework. It would be an interesting experiment to see if they can spontaneously raise a queen on permacomb without the space on the bottom. Supercedure and emergency queens are a fact of life in the survival of the hive.

[John Seets]

Mike,
Regarding PC and queen cells. They WILL and usually build supercedure and swarm cells almost exclusively on the bottom of the frames whether the boxes are cut down or not. When you pull one medium brood chamber off of one below it, the queen cells usually break apart. I very rearely if ever see queen cells on the face of the comb up from the bottom fo the frame. This is more assured when the brood chamber is used in a 10 frame configuration.
Hope this helps. Thanx.

[thesurveyor]

Mike and John,

Sounds like Permacomb may be an asset in swarm control. If the queen cells are only on the bottom, it would make finding them easier and should help.

It also would mean that the number of drones would limited and you would not be overun with drones.

Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited January 14, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

For swarms and supercedure the bees build a queen cell and the queen lays in it. I would have expected them on the bottom.

For Emergency queens, however, they have to find a very young larvae in a cell and turn it into a queen cell. I would think the odds of finding one on the bottom of some frame in the brood chamber with PermaComb in a standard depth box are pretty fair. Without brood already there, though, I'm not sure how they would manage one off of a larvae in an "indestructable" cell. They might build it off the side. I would like to try and find out sometime.

[thesurveyor]

Well, I presented the Permacomb to the local beekeepers last night. They were curiuos too see how well the bees accepted the product. One fellow felt that the queen would lay drone eggs in the worker cells. I can only imagine that the workers would remove the drone eggs an move them to one of the drone cells they build at the bottom of the comb.

Would like to know what someone else thinks on that idea. All in all they like the idea and took the printed copies of the word document.

They felt that the it would be a good start to the 4.9mm cell regression.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

>Well, I presented the Permacomb to the local beekeepers last night. They were curiuos too see how well the bees accepted the product.

Me too.

>One fellow felt that the queen would lay drone eggs in the worker cells.

The queen measures a cell, and based on the size lays the correct type of egg, drone or worker. I see no reason a queen, especially one used to 5.4mm cell size would lay a drone in a 5.0mm cell. She can't confuse it with a drone cell. The concept of using worker size foundation has always been to limit the drones and it works because the queen measures the cell and then lays the right kind of eggs for that size cell.

>I can only imagine that the workers would remove the drone eggs an move them to one of the drone cells they build at the bottom of the comb. Would like to know what someone else thinks on that idea.

No. On rare occasions when a queen is infertile and has no worker eggs to lay, or a laying worker starts laying drones, the workers just build those bullet caps on the worker cells that contain the drones. I got an infertile queen once and that's exactly what they did.

>They felt that the it would be a good start to the 4.9mm cell regression.

It's true, a 5.0mm cell size that can't be modified and is proven to be used by typical 5.4mm bees to raise brood is two steps into a retrogression on the first try. And if nothing else, you could use the permacomb for supers after you fully regressed to 4.9mm wax foundation on the next regression. Of course the other two possiblities are that if I can get a thin enough coating of wax on it, and that will be difficult, then it might just make it all the way to 4.9mm in one step. The other posiblility is, in four or five generations, the coccons will finish that last .1mm step and you will get regressed in a year or so anyway, using the standard uncoated permacomb.

[John Seets]

Hi,gang;

Regarding the surveyor'post on 1/14 12:41:PermaComb was originally advertised as a mothod of swarm control in the 10 frame configuration as you suggested. I nixed it in my advertisements because this queen cells on the bottom of the frames occurred 80-90% of the time - not 100%.

True drone assessment.

Mike's and Surveyor's following posts:

My observation have led me to believe that when supercedure occurs, the bees will move a fertilized egg from another part of the comb to the bottom of frame(s) queen cell(s) that they build. Research has supported this bee action. I have never seen them build a queen cell on the side of a frame. Normally, (with a laying queen), I have never seen a queen lay drone eggs in a worker cell. Drone laying occurs EXCLUSIVELY on the bottom of the frames 1/4 to 3/8ths inch (assuming the boxes are not cut down (6 5/8")).

Now, in scenarios where the queen becomes infertile or disappears for whatever reason and laying workers take over the egg laying job, they WILL lay eggs in the worker cells ANYWHERE on the comb. The cell cappings as Mike accuratley pointed out are domed, bullet or pop-eyed in shape. A dead give-away.

Feel free to ask me questions directly. That's why I'm here.

Thanx.

[thesurveyor]

Got my permacomb. It looks awesome. Can't wait for warm weather. They are forcasting snow here tonight. I guess I will have to wait.

The weight of the permacomb feels a little heavier than a regular drawn comb frame, but not much.

I feel like it will last a lifetime, or two.

Curious, Bill and Txbeeguy did you order any. If so what do you think of it.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

TheSurveyor said:
>Got my permacomb. It looks awesome.
I agree it looks awsome.

>The weight of the permacomb feels a little heavier than a regular drawn comb frame, but not much.
I think it's a lot heavier, but I think it's worth it.

>I feel like it will last a lifetime, or two.
That's what I think. Especially in a hive, polished with propolis in the dark. I don't know why it wouldn't.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I ordered 100 frames, and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. UPS tracking, scheduled for Monday delivery.
I am encouraged by the early reports from those who have already received theirs. I plan to start two hives of Cordovans on three to four broods of PC. I will have to order more to accomplish my eventual goal of completely changing over to mediums. However I think that I will do some splits after the main flow adding two mediums to one deep and then phase out the deeps next year increasing to at least four mediums on my New World Carnolians.
Of course timing is everything, so the bees will dictate when I do my splits and when I add the extra med. broods.
I am trying to formulate a configuration for my hives which will utilize a screened bottom board and or with a clean out tray, a main entrance above the brood, and another ventilated entrance at the very top.
It may not be 4.9, but its close enough for me. Where has this stuff been hiding?
Bill

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited January 16, 2003).]

[dharbert]

I am wanting to change over my hives from deep frames to medium. What would be the best method to accomplish this?

[txbeeguy]

I have not ordered any and most likely won't. That's not to say I'm against it; in fact I'll be interested to hear your comments after a season's worth of use (it already sounds as if it will mostly be positive).
I have deep brood chambers and have no plans to change that (since I made my investment in deeps so many years ago). However, I have to say, if I was just starting out today, I'd probably "standardize" all my equipment on the medium-depth supers - they're lighter and there's something to be said about having only one size equipment (more inter-changability between equipment) The only possible regret I can see, is that I wish the original mold maker would have made the medium frames "standard" size (i.e., to fit the 6-5/8 supers). Also, I hope the 'ears' of the frames are strong enough to hold up through the years of use. I believe the basic idea is sound and I certainly wish you guys much success with it!

[Michael Bush]

>I am wanting to change over my hives from deep frames to medium. What would be the best method to accomplish this?

Supers are easy. You take them off all the time. Just don't put them back. Put the mediums on instead.

The brood nest is the difficult part.

The gentlest way to move bees from one kind of equipment to another depends on the time of year. I will assume you want to start this spring, so I'd try to get to the hives early in the spring when they start flying and check out the bottom brood box. It should be mostly empty. If there is no brood in it, treat it like a super and remove the bees.

There are a lot of techniques for this, I prefer the triangular bee escape for a couple of days followed by brushing the remaining bees off with a bee brush.

If there are any frames with any brood, put them in the top box and swap them for empty frames or frames with only honey. When you are done with this you now have only one box with brood. Add two medium boxes to the top of the brood chamber. The queen will start laying in them as soon as the bottom box is full and the foundation is drawn much.

Next spring, you do the same thing and you remove the other deep box.

If you are more impatient, you could, after the queen is laying in the two mediums, check the bottom box to make sure there's no queen in it, and move it above a queen excluder and add another medium box or two to the brood nest.

After all of the brood in the deep box above the excluder have hatched, remove the bees and remove the box.

If you are in a real hurry, to change equipment you'll have to do a shakedown. You brush ALL the bees into new equipment and give the brood to another hive. If you want to regress quickly this is what you do also.

[Michael Bush]

I had more time to spend on the PermaComb experiments and here are my conclusions so far:

I measured some frozen drawn standard size comb, some 1st regression comb both with the "across 10 cells" method and my calipers inside and outside and just laying a metric ruler across the cells. I did the same for the PermaComb. I think the PermaComb is the equivelant of what we are calling 5.1mm cell size.

I dipped room temperature PermaComb in 212 degree F wax (clean wax with some water in the bottom). I rapped it on the floor (with some newspapers to catch the splatter). The wax, as I expected, clogged up in the bottoms and did not leave a consisten layer at all. This will not work.

I warmed the comb in a 200 degree F oven with a small peice of foundation on it and watched for the foundation to melt and run into the cells. Then I dipped it in the 212 degree F wax and rapped it on the floor. It left a very nicely consistient layer of wax on the PermaComb. I would say the cell size after doing this, is about 4.95mm. I think acceptance would be excellent with the wax on it.

[thesurveyor]

Sounds like we have a winner on the regression side of things. I am curious to see how well the bees accept the permacomb. Question is where will it get warm first. Here or Nebraska?

Time will tell. I have showed the comb to several people and they love the stuff. Their question is always the same. How does the bees accept it.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I think it will get warm first in North Carolina. But the climate has been so weird that I wouldn't bet any money on it.

I think when wax coated there will be no acceptance problems. Without it I would expect it to be the same as any other plastic foundation.

John Seets recommends using Bee-Healthy from Bee-Commerce on the frames to help with acceptance.

[John Seets]

Way to go Mike!
I am impressed that your experimentation yielded the desired results! Your successful methodology is noted and the info is appreciated. I have never heated the comb to 220 F. eventhough the manufacturer's specs say it will handle it. I'll be very interested to know if the wax coating enahnces acceptance. Of course, with only 10 frames, you need a control with no wax coating to compare. That would validate your observations.

To all: Mike is correct that the bees accept the plastic PermaComb about the same as they accept plastic foundation. I have found that dipping (preferable) or spraying the PermaComb with sugar syrup with Honey-B-Healthy added JUST BEFORE PUTTING THE COMB ON THE HIVE(S) enhances comb acceptance at least twice as fast as not using it. That product can be found at: http://www.bee-commerce.com/. I heartily recommend using it.

FYI: Swarms (primary) work plastic anything the fastest.

Another PC recommendation: If you don't have one, get a hooked or "lift" hive tool. Working the PC (and any comb for that matter) with this tool is infinitely easier that using the "standard" hive tool.

Thanx.

[Michael Bush]

I just got one of the "lift" hive tools this year and they work really well. Makes me wonder how I got by without it.

[thesurveyor]

Ordered some bee healty. Plan to use in the introduction of PermaComb.

The Documentation states that Perma Comb should be used in all permacomb. That means no wax comb mixed in with the permacomb.

Does anyone know what kind of results have been gotten if not used as whole supers of permacomb.

Just wondering.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

Also, maybe I should give more detail on the "oven" method I used with the PermaComb. I put a piece of cardboard on the rack so the metal wouldn't transfer heat to fast and melt the PermaComb. I put an oven thermometer in the oven that shows the actual temperature in case the oven's internal thermostat is not correct. I set the oven at 200 degrees F and I put a piece of foundation on the PermaComb so I could see when it melted and ran down into the comb. I was careful not to let the actual oven temperature exceed 200 degrees (220 is the max rating for PermaComb). I checked it every five minutes or so.

After dunking in the wax I let the wax run out of one side and then the other and then while it was still hot, I rapped it soundly flat on the floor on some newspapers, but I will try to find a piece of sheet metal so I don't waste the wax, first on one side and then on the other. If it still seems too thick, you can put it back in the 200 degree F oven until it melts in the combs, but it is much more difficult to get it to come out after it sticks and clumps up. It's important that everything is hot enough without being over 220 degress F.

I haven't tried boiling the PermaComb as someone suggested. This may work just as well and be easier to implement, since water boils at 212 degrees F, but I was afraid the water would either keep the wax from adhering or it would evaporate when removing the comb from the water and ause it to cool off too much. It may work better than the oven method. When I get time I will try the boiling water method, because I think if it works, it would be easier. I just didn't have a tank big enough.

I was plesantly surprised that I could get such a thin coating, in fact I didn't think it was possible to get it that thin. It's actually slightly thinner than I wanted, but all my attemtps at getting it only slightly thicker made a mess out of it.

[Michael Bush]

I'm speculating from my experience with plastic foundation, but if you mix wax and plastic foundation in the same super the bees seem more likely to reject the plastic. You shouldn't put something they like that much better right next to something they're not so sure about. On the other hand, I have done it and sometimes it works. The problems are that they will draw the wax foundation nice and deep sometimes build some cross comb hanging from the top bar of the plastic foundation's bar in front of the foundation. Then they may only partially fill the plastic. I have not had problems with adding a super of empty plastic on top of a full super of wax, just mixing the frames up next to each other in the same super doesn't seem to work well.

Maybe John has some more specific experience with the PermaComb.

[thesurveyor]

I plan on using only permacomb, no wax foundation. Thought I would try a super of wax foundation in one hive and then try the permacomb in another hive to get a comparison on the difference between how the bees do with drawing their own or using the permcomb.

Did not me to rhyme, but it just went well together.

Wonder if Bullseye got his permacomb yet?

Thesurveyor

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I got my shipment today! Just one week after mailing my check. Nice to do business with a straight shooter. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif That's fast service!

I should have ordered twice as many, and will soon.

I plan on using them in my broods and playing out my old mediums and frames for supers. I will do one complete hive in PC for a control and see how it goes.

For an unlimited broodnest would I use four or five mediums?
Bill

[Michael Bush]

10 frames of deep = 15 frames of medium. This is calculated based on the surface area of a frame. But the PermaComb does have more cells on it because it has no top and bottom and side bars, just cells all the way to the edge.

So if you were going to run three deeps for a brood nest that would be 30 frames of deep which is equl to 45 frames of medium. That's 4 or 5 boxes depending on if you want to round it up or down. Figuring for the extra cells, maybe four would do.

I'm planning on running it without a queen excluder with all mediums and see what happens.

[dickm]

I'm a little confused. Is this permacomb the same thing as the plastic frames made by Pierco? I tried a few of those last year but too late in the season for any real results. They've been around a long time and are at Mann Lake for $1.50 or so. Does anyone have any comments or experience with these?

Thanks

dickm

[Michael Bush]

>Is this permacomb the same thing as the plastic frames made by Pierco?

No. Pierco is a one piece frame and foundation. PermaComb is one piece FULLY DRAWN comb and frame. The bees still have to draw the cells on the Pierco. They are already drawn on the PermaComb. This is what makes it impervious to wax moths and hive beetles. The best they can hope for is to burrow into one cell and find a dead end. If you have some deeply drawn PermaComb (like 9 frame spacing or 10 frame spacing) maybe they could tunnel along the surface, but their insticts are to burrow through in the back. Being fully drawn means the bees don't have to draw the cells and can simply fill and cap them.

[John Seets]

Mike as the right of it in his last post regarding why you don't want to mix plastic and wax combs in the same super.

Bill, please define "unlimited broodnest".

Thanx.

[John Seets]

Mike is correct in his reply about wax moth larvae. The larvae CANNOT damage the comb. However they will leave some surface webbing that can be cleaned off with a stiff brush.

Mike, I tried no excluders for awhile and almost invariably, the bees would lay in the honey supers. Was a real pain and went back to the excluders.

Also, I recommend 4 PC supers for brood.

Thanx.

[Michael Bush]

The two versions of "unlimited brood nest" that I've seen and tried are three deep hive bodies for the brood with an excluder on top, or three deep hive bodies and no excluder so the queen can expand anywhere she wants. usually I've used 7/11 foundation when I've run one without an excluder. This is especially popular with people who have breeds that are prone to swarm because it allows a large brood nest.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Michael wrote;
usually I've used 7/11 foundation when I've run one without an excluder.

What is 7/11 foundation?

Thanks, Bill

[Michael Bush]

The term 7/11 is a cell size measurement and has to do with how many hundred cells in a square of some standard size and how many remaing. I don't remember exactly, but the gist of it is it's larger than a worker cell and smaller than a drone cell and the queen doesn't like to lay in them. If you leave them on over winter, the bees will rework them into drone, but otherwise they work rather well for comb honey or for supers.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I was inspecting my PC after reading the posts about Housel positioning, and noticed that BOTH sides are inverted Y.
I am more interested in how that could happen rather than the fact that it is. Every foundation that I have seen is opposite on the other side.
I suppose in the Housel theory that the queen would always feel that she was in the center of the hive with inverted Y on both sides. Perhaps that would lend them to a more harmonious state? After all she would be on worker cell, in the "middle" always, and plenty of room to grow.
Just a thought.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I was looking at this earlier and that was not my impression. It is difficult to see through the PermaComb, so I will double check later, but the geometry involved would make it impossible, I believe. One side has to be inverted and one right side up in order to have a verticie from the opposite side in the middle of the ones on this side.

I have the same problem with the Housel Positioning theory on what the center comb looks like. I don't think it can be the same on both sides. I am hoping to find out this next year if there is a center comb and what it looks like.

Since the PermaComb kind of has sections of cells on it, maybe they don't all line up the same on the same side? Maybe that's why you're seeing some that are the same from opposite sides?

I will study the PermaComb some more. There must be some reason you and I are not seeing the same thing. Maybe we're not looking at the same spots.

[thesurveyor]

It appears that on the permacomb, all cells are angled the same on both sides.

I am not as knowledgable as some here on this thread, but it would make sense to me for both sides to be the same, but then again I am not a bee.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

If you draw a honey comb on a sheet of paper, or if you use a piece of foundation for a stamp pad and put ink on it and make two sheets of paper with a honey comb on it, you can hold it up to the light and see all of the ways that a honey comb on one side can be aligned with the honey comb on the other side.

Basicilly if you take drawn comb from the bees that is empty you can see that there is a formation in the botom of the cell that is caused by the bottoms of the cells on the other side. The verticie of three cells coming together on the other side meet in the middle of the bottom of the cell. Depending on which side you look from these three verticies make either a "Y" or an inverted "Y". The cells are oriented the same, but the three sided space in the bottom of the cell is oriented differently. The bottom of a cell is not entierly flat, it comes to this slight point at the bottom where these verticies on the other side meet.

This is what we are talking about.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

One thing I should mention, I only looked at one sample. There are surely more than one mould that these are made on, and there could be differences between them.
I did notice that on mine that there are two cells just left of center that are not open, and a verticle colum on the right that is also closed. This is from memory as I am at work now...
Bill

[thesurveyor]

I get the concept. I am excited about using the permacomb. I plan on using it in my two queen hive experiment.

Also plan to have the DE Hive ventilation system in use also.

Wish me luck. Just can't wait for it to get warm. They are calling for more snow tonight with a low in the teens.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

Bullseye Bills observation is correct. All of the cells have an inverted "Y" in the bottom. It is not caused by lining up on the verticies of the cells on the other side as is usual, however. The cells line up on both sides the same. I don't think it will be a problem, but it would be interesting to know what the bees percieve this in regards to comb positioning.

[WiredForStereo]

Michael, this might be your phantom center comb!!!!!

[Michael Bush]

If there is such a thing as a center comb, and maybe there is, I think this is the only way it could be done. Because normally it's all related to the way the other side lines up. This is really the only way to have the bottoms of the cells on both sides the same. But then the "Y" (or in this case inverted "Y") is just the way they shaped the bottom of the cell and not the cell showing through from the other side as it is on all the other's.

I think you may be right. This may be how the bees do the center one. I can't wait to do some experiments this spring to find out what they build for center combs.

[WiredForStereo]

I have seen a comb on the movie "Tales From the Hive" and in other places that looks like it has both a Y and an inverted Y and from the looks of it, it looks like the bees built the cells staggered but directly accross from one another. Interesting.

Sol

[Michael Bush]

If you look at drawn empty comb or you look at foundation, you will see the the cause of the "Y" or inverted "Y" is the intersection of the cells on the opposite side.

In the case of the PermaComb, the cells seem to be lined up with each other, and not offset, but the bottoms of the cells have the inverted "Y" shape to them.

[John Seets]

Mike/Wired:

Please define "center comb". The concept is new to me. I searched my limited resources but could find no reference to it.

Thanx.

[WiredForStereo]

It has to do with the much theoried Housel Positioning concept with the bees making the first combs in a hive point a certain direction as to how the Y's at the bottom of the cell point. Mind you, these are theories that seem to explain happenings in nature and may or may not be the way it is. In general, inverted Y's are facing towards the middle of the nest, and it is theoried to converge on a central comb that has both sides the same way. What I was talking about was a comb I saw in a movie that seemed to have the features I have described.

Sol Parker

[BULLSEYE BILL]

John,
Go to Beesource.com, click on In the News, click on Point of View.
There you can read about the Housel Theory complete with diagrams on how the comb is positioned in the hive.
Worth the read...
Bill

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have seen a comb on the movie "Tales From the Hive" and in other places that looks like it has both a Y and an inverted Y and from the looks of it, it looks like the bees built the cells staggered but directly accross from one another. Interesting.
Sol

I have that tape, what a fantastic tape! I will have to play it again to see what you are refering to, like I need a reason to watch it again http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif.
Bill

[thesurveyor]

So are we saying that permacomb, is like the natural comb or completely different?

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

We are saying that PermaComb appears to be how the center comb in a natural hive has been described.

I have not seen this center comb. I will be trying some experiments this spring to see if I can find out what it is like.

Regular comb (other than the center) has the verticies of the cells on the opposite side in the middle of the cells and this makes one side a "Y" in the bottom and the other side an inverted "Y" in the bottom. PermaComb is NOT like the regular comb.

It is unclear how this affects things like acceptance of the comb or stress on the bees, but basically it is comb that is not oriented one way or the other. For more information see the Housel Positioning section in the NEWS section of BeeSource.

You can't get it misoriented by the Housel positioning theory, because it's the same on both sides. Maybe the bees won't care one way or the other.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I view the Housel theory to be like a map for the bees.
Inverted on both sides means that you are snug as a bug in the middle of the hive.
Inverted Y's will point them back INTO the center, and the Y's take you awaY from the center.
Now how could you get lost in a system like that?
If in PC they always had inverted Y's all around them, then they should always feel right at home and in the center where they raise worker brood.
What could be better for raising worker bees?
Bill

[Michael Bush]

>I view the Housel theory to be like a map for the bees.
Inverted on both sides means that you are snug as a bug in the middle of the hive.
Inverted Y's will point them back INTO the center, and the Y's take you awaY from the center.
Now how could you get lost in a system like that?

I think you're correct. I'm guessing that's how it works.

>If in PC they always had inverted Y's all around them, then they should always feel right at home and in the center where they raise worker brood.
What could be better for raising worker bees?

One possibility is, as you say, they will be happy to treat it as the middle of the hive an raise brood. This is probably true regardless of any other effects.

But it may also be true, as in your description above, that they would be a bit disorented. It would be like evertime you leave the room you're in (which is your bedroom) you walk into your bedroom again.(Sounds like a Star Trek Next Generation episode where they keep walking into the bridge).

[newguy]

In "The How-to-do-it Book of Beekeeping" by Richard Taylor (a highly recommended book) he has a picture of a Ritecell type of comb where the bees had chewed the wax off of the plastic and refused to utilize the stripped comb.
Also, if this has been around for 28 years, why is it such a big thing all of a sudden?
John, I'd appreciate your comments.

[Michael Bush]

I'll tell you the two reasons it's a big deal to me right now.

1. I can wax coat it and regress (size my bees) back down a much more natural size of 4.95mm cells in one shot.

2. I can not have to fight the wax moths that devastated my combs this year.

[thesurveyor]

Newguy,

Ritecell is plastic foundation. We are talking about a product that is already drawn to full length. The bees do not need to draw the comb out anymore.

Thesurveyor

[Dave W]

The Lusby article on this site, does not show a "center comb". Each frame is alike, some turned one way, some opposite. This creates a "hive center" between two combs. If PC combs are alike on both sides, How can one create this "hive center"?

[Michael Bush]

>The Lusby article on this site, does not show a "center comb". Each frame is alike, some turned one way, some opposite. This creates a "hive center" between two combs. If PC combs are alike on both sides, How can one create this "hive center"?

Quote from the Lusby article:
"In the wild, there is one center frame that is first drawn when honey bees swarm onto a limb. In spring or following normal swarming the first comb built is worker (exception being more towards fall, following the summer solstice and longest day, when bees swarming can sometimes want to build drone/honey comb first to obtain stores for winter and then once a certain amount is drawn and realized, they then start workercombs)."

"Now this comb is built with the "Y" inverted and upside down on both sides of the comb. So I now type "^I^" to show the inverted "Y" on both sides of the comb. There is only one of these combs made."

This is the "center comb we are refering to. The section in the Lusby article you are refering to is explaining how to apply the concept of positioning to a hive. Since there is no foundation available with this Inverted "Y" on both sides, they just orient the rest of them and make an "imaginary" center.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>If PC combs are alike on both sides, How can one create this "hive center"?

Between all PC combs is center.
Between all PC combs the bees will "feel" is the proper place to rear brood.
No matter where they go, there they are.
Bill

[Dave W]

Is the brood nest spherical? How do bees locate the center of a frame from end-bar to end-bar? If they use a "center" comb, maybe thats how they know where to start from side-to-side. If center can not be determined in the other direction, will they start on say, frame #8, expand the nest spherically until they suddenly encounter the side of the hive or be so confussed that they resist even building a nest.

What about "the formation of the "Y" seen in wild combs at their cell bases"? Lusby states, "There is a right and left side to each foundation AND COMB...wheather in a man-made colony, or hanging down from a limb."

[Michael Bush]

As I quoted above, that is every comb except the center one.

There are people using PermaComb for brood with no reported problems so I don't forsee any. We are just trying to picture how the bees will percieve it in the context of the Housel Positioning Theory.

[thesurveyor]

I am getting ready to install a meduim full of permacomb onto my strongest hive. The weather is somewhat cooperating. It looks like the temp will be warm enough on sunday to have a go at it.

Is there any thing special that I need to do. I know that someone mentioned spraying the permacomb with honey-b-healthy. I plan on doing that. Just wondering if anything else is needed.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

Sounds like you're ready to go. Unless you're going to put in the spacers.

I already use the metal "combs" for spacing 9 frames in a 10 frame box. I'm considering building a wooden version with dowels the right diameter for the space between the top bars drilled into a larger dowel to space the 10 frames of PermaComb in a 10 frame box. That way I won't have to put the spacers in and can use any box interchanably for a super with 9 frames or a brood box with 10. I have seen one of these wooden ones for a 9 frame spacer.

[thesurveyor]

I have put metal frame spacer for 9 frames in the super. I am planning on giving the super to the bees. They can place stores or brood in it. I am not going to exclude that box.

I will let you know how well they accept it.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Russ]

For anyone interested in making a spacer for 9 fromes in a 10 frame hive. Using 3/8" dowels for the spacers and drill the holes 1.595" center to center. I like the idea of using a larger round dowel to drill the holes in as it would be easy to get ahold of. Dale

[ranwithrsd]

I have read in this forum that you should not mix PermaComb with foundation, because of bee preferences, but what about using PC just for brood? What I mean by this is in a TB hive of about 30 or so top-bars, the bees seem to use (from what I've seen) about the first 12 or so bars for brood, the rest for honey stores. Why not place 12 bars of PC for that purpose, then for the rest use waxed top bars for them to start comb? They get the jump start by not having to draw out the brood chamber, and can instead concentrate on drawing out comb for honey, which, for a lot of people with TB hives, means more cut-comb honey, or more wax and honey(if extracted), and you can really get things going early in the season.
The above post is just a question for informational purposes for myself, as I am just about 100% going to go with PC, but am looking for other ways to use it rather than just a full hive of it. I also want to maybe try to join 2 pieces together, to end up with 12" of PC to make a hive that's really deep, and still about 30 bars long! Of course, that's one heavy mama of a hive, but who knows, people have done crazier things with bees, that's for sure!

------------------
ranwithrsd

[Michael Bush]

I know from other plastic foundations that if you intersperse plastic and wax, they tend to overdraw the wax and skip the plastic. If you have plastic in the first half of the hive and bars in the last half, it might work fine, Just don't put a plastic then a bar then a plastic.

This would work in my top bar hives, because I've taken to making them the same as a Lanstroth and then just use top bars or frames in them as I please.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I am going to make all my PC brood boxes ten frame and all my PC supers nine frame.
My hope is if the supers are drawn out further it will be easier to uncap, and besides, I'd like SOME wax...

I'm still debateing exactly how I will change over. I think I will take two years to do it. Starting with splits of my double deeps and adding two PC broods at the same time, adding another and a super soon after, and more supers as needed. Then the following year removing the deep altogether.

Unlimited brood nest makes sense to me, but I am concerned about building towers. Then again, I would love to have that problem!
Bill

[thesurveyor]

Does it really make that big of difference to run 10 frames in the brood chamber instead of 9 frames. I run 9 frames because it is easier to manage, the frames are more easily gotten too.

Just wondering if the benifits are that substantial? I have my PC brood box set-up with 9 frames now and getting ready to install it tomorrow, if the weather is warm enough.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Surveyor,
the reason I want ten frames is that I get over 2000 more cells in the brood box, and they really don't need the extra space inbetween the frames. I suppose that you would have less of a chance to damage the queen if you use the wider spaceing but I don't think that it is necessary.
The wider spaceing in the supers should insure that the cells are drawn out a bit and that you have the ability to cut the cappings off. I will probably get a Hackler honey punch just in case I get some cells that are sealed beneith the plastic.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

You can run 9 in the brood chamber. The bees will draw the brood cells to the correct depth for brood, but they will draw the honey out further. You have shorted the brood nest one frame of brood and you have draw comb that protrudes too far to change back to 10 frames because the honey will be too close to the opposite frame and the bees won't fit. Also if there is honey on one face the the other face has brood and you put them back in 10 frames the brood can't emerge.

So if you go with 9 you need to stick with 9. Since the honey sticks out anyway, you don't end up with more room between frames. The queen can still get squished. And if you don't have a frame rest style spacer, you could squish them easier because the honey comb will hit the honey comb before the hoffman lug hits the hoffoman lug.

So if you do nine frames, use the a frame rest spacer and don't change it back to ten.

[thesurveyor]

Ok, guys I put the permacomb onto two hives today. Also put the langstroth kit from beeworks onto the same two hives. I am building up another one of my hives to put my two queen experiment into. The weather cooperated today, but the weather man says wintery mix starting tomorrow night. Temps are suppose to be low 30's at night mid 40's during the day with mid 50's by weeks end. So maybe I have not started too early.

Any ideas when I should check the progress on the permacomb to see how good acceptance is?

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I'd wait a week and then go for when the weather cooperates.

[John Seets]

Hi, Gang; I've been out of the loop for awhile.

Surveyor: I noticed that you just added some PC supers to your hives. Is there a nectar flow going on down there now? If not, consider feeding your bees 1:1 with HoneyBHealthy added to it. Watch out for robbing. Bees LOVE HBH. Put the PC super(s) just above the brood.

Also, since various manufacturers make boxes not all the same dimensions, make sure that when you put the PC into a box, the sides of the box are not putting pressure on the ends of the PC frames. If this happens, the heat of the summer will cause the PC to bow or warp. Propolis deposits on the frame rests or frame ends will cause the same effect so clean these areas regularly.

All: I am somewhat confused by all the discussions on making spacers. Why not simply use the spacers that came with the PC? They are made for the PC and are reversible (9 or 10 frame).

Bullseye/Surveyor: Regarding 9 or 10 frames box configuration, Mike Bush is right on the money. Use 9 frames for both brood and honey. A number of reasons for this:
1) Less risk to the queen when working brood boxes.
2) Enables older queens to get around "congested" brood boxes more easily thereby spreading her "footprint" pheromone over a larger area which helps to inhibit the hives swarming tendency.
3) Should you use excluders, it is sometimes a good idea to put a frame or 2 of capped brood in the super just above the excluder getting the bees to travers the excluder and working the comb faster. When putting the capped brood in the supers, you will want to put the displaced super comb on the ends in the brood box so the bees will put honey in it. If they bees have "drawn out" the 9 frame config frames and you try to put it in a 10 frame brood box, it won't fit.
4) Put on another 9 frame brood box if not having 10 per box really bothers you. I run four PC brood chambers per hive typically.

Ranwithrsd: Plastic anything (frames/foundation MUST be introduced to the bees in super lots. No interspersing wax and plastic frames in the same box. I am looking forward to your order. If you're in town (Catonsville) come by and pick it up. Shipping rates are horrendous.

All: I like HoneyBHealthy so much I am now a distributor. Let me know if you want some. No "handling fees" and "padded" shipping. Just actual costs.

Thanx.

[thesurveyor]

John,

The maple has bloomed. We had a 60 degree day here today, and the bees were all over the maple trees in the front yard. They have several thousand acres of Hardwoods to work. The area around my house has primarily Maple, Tulip Poplar and of course sourwood..

The honey flow has started. I have been using the HBH and the bees love it. I have not added any supers that will contain honey for me, I have put the supers on to serve as brood boxes. I am trying to switch everything I have to mediums. So this is my start. I am curious to see how well they have accepted the PC.

Thesurveyor

[ranwithrsd]

Mr. Seets,
I thank you for replying, but you haven't quite directly answered my question. You are assuming I am putting frames of foundation in with the PC, and I am not (I use top bar hives). My line of thinking is to use the PC for brood, then just put bare top bars in after the PC. I use only top bar hives, not Langstroths, and if I didn't have the PC I would just use empty top bars with a bead of wax for a tempter/starter guide for everything. My reasoning is that by letting the bees start on the PC, when they see the empty space behind those frames, they will do what is natural and start their own comb from scratch, and it will let them build quicker to get more honey collected. There will not be any foundation for them after the PC. Have you heard of anyone doing this?
Thanks,
ranwithrsd

[Michael Bush]

>My line of thinking is to use the PC for brood, then just put bare top bars in after the PC. I use only top bar hives, not Langstroths, and if I didn't have the PC I would just use empty top bars with a bead of wax for a tempter/starter guide for everything...

I think it will work fine if you have a follower board in and just PC at first then add the remaining top bars after the bees are using the PC.

However, the point of top bars is to avoid buying frames and foundation etc.

[ranwithrsd]

Michael,
Yes, I agree that for the most part the point of tb hives are the minimal investment, but if you use PC for brood, then you minimize any effects of wax moth, as well as reducing the chances that you'll have to worry about newer brood comb breaking free (older comb is tough, sure, but even then there's that chance) if you move the hives for any reason (I am using them for pollination) ; that may not seem like a huge deal to some, but with everything else (Varroa, tracheal mites, small hive beetle, etc.) adding to their aggravation, anything you can do to lessen it will help your colonies in the long run. The bees will be less stressed on the whole, I think, because of that.
ranwithrsd

[thesurveyor]

Checked my hives today, making two weeks since introduction. All is well. The permacomb hives are in great shape. The bees have accepted the permacomb. They started filling the cells with pollen and looks like the queen is getting ready to move up to permacomb medium super.

The medium supers of permacomb were accepted at different times. One hive has just started accepting the permacomb. The other hive has been using it at least a week. I have noticed that the strongest hive is utilizing the permacomb more.

I will keep you informed. Looks good so far.

I plan to order more permacomb.

Thesurveyor

[BeeCatcher]

surveyor, please keep us posted on how you do with the PC.it just hard for me to understand that this stuff has been around for 27years and none of the big dealers carry the permacomb. if it does good for those of you that have allready bought it. i will surely be changeing my ten hives over to it.

[John Seets]

BeeCatcher;

FYI: I have been using the PC for 27 years. It's been around longer than that. It's been advertised in BeeCulture Magazine every month for at least that long.

Surveyor,
Out of curiosity, are you using 9 or 10 frame config per box?

Also, Any robbing problems when using the Honey-B-Healthy?

Thanx.

[thesurveyor]

John,

I am using 9 frame config. As far as robbing all my hives are extremely strong for this time of year. I started feeding BEE Pro Patties about 20 days ago. Added Honey-B-Healthy about the same time. Added two supers of permacomb to the two strongest hives, they were actually out of room. I have another hive that I will add another super to, they have also ran out of room.

The maple flow is on and the bees have stopped taking the Honey-B-Healty. I will generally let them take the maple for them to keep. They next big flow will start in about 20 days. The weather is great here and spring is in the air.

They accepted the permacomb with very little trouble. I just sprayed the HBH to the permacomb and withing two weeks time they have started filling it with pollen and nectar. I expect the queen to move up to the PC sometime within this week or next.

I will be contacting you to order more PC.

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[thesurveyor]

Question of size of cells?

If I put a package of bees on the permacomb frames, do think the smaller size of the permacomb would cause them to leave or would it aid in the hive in becoming established?

I have read of people trying to regress all at once with the bees absconding.

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Thanks
Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

>Question of size of cells?
If I put a package of bees on the permacomb frames, do think the smaller size of the permacomb would cause them to leave or would it aid in the hive in becoming established?

PermaComb out of the box is, by my measurments the equivelant of 5.15mm cell size. This is the size my 5.4mm bees build if I let them anyway. I think it the cell size will contribute to acceptance by the bees.

>I have read of people trying to regress all at once with the bees absconding.

The problem is that you make the whole hive in effect homeless. You run them off of all their combs and they are actually a shaken swarm. Sometimes they decide to act like a swarm. A package of bees is similar but they have had some time to settle in togther and usually don't absond. Sometimes, though, they do no matter what size cells they are on.

[clintonbemrose]

I think I would use a queen includer for the first 2 weeks.
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan

[Michael Bush]

To clarify, I believe Clint means use the queen excluder on the bottom board so the queen can't leave. Not in the normal position above the brood nest.

You can also buy entrance gaurds that are queen excluders.

[John Seets]

Don't sweat it, Clint. I've been putting packaged bees on new PermaComb for 27 years and haven't had one abscond yet. Of course, I usually add a frame of PermaComb with brood to the new hive(s)which helps. No brood in PermaComb available? Put in one medium wooden waxed frame with brood. You might have to resize the frame end width a bit to fit the provided spacers. That should seal the no abscond scenario.
Thanx.
John

[thesurveyor]

Just added my second round of permacomb supers on my hives. The first round is full of brood and honey along with pollen. The bees have really taken a fit for it. The stuff was accepted by them within a weeks time.

So far so good. I think the stuff is going to be a hit. As far as I am concerned I am going to start using it on all my hives.

Anyone else have any results to post?

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I haven't got the bees to put on it yet, but I wax coated 28 frames of it today. That's enough for two observation hives and two 10 frame boxes. It's messy work. Trying to shake and smack the wax back out of the combs after filling them really splatters beeswax everywhere. Looks like it takes about two pounds of wax to do ten frames. Not that the two pounds is all on the comb, because a lot ends up spattered all over me and everything else. It's difficult enough, I'll try it before I do a lot more. If the large cell queen will lay in it and the large cell workers can raise brood in it, then I'll have an almost fully regressed hive in one regression. It's still less work than two shakdowns of a hive.

I'll let you know how the bees like it when I get them on it.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 23, 2003).]

[thesurveyor]

I have two hives with two medium supers full of permacomb. They have filled them with honey, pollen and brood. The bees apparently love the stuff. Acceptance was outstanding. Both hives took the stuff within a week after introduction. I plan on converting all of my hives over. I know the frames cost a little more, but it defeats the wax moths and gives the bees a head stat without having to draw out comb.

I plan on using it with a package of bee in a long hive that I have just built.

Anyone else have any success stories?

Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited April 07, 2003).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Surveyor,
Are you going to stay with two mediums for supers or go with three?

I'm still waiting for my packages, which should show up this week, for my nice new PC hives, and it's too early to add the medium PC's to my established hives.
I am still planning to do splits and end up with one deep and one to two mediums this year and end up with three mediums on my hives in the end. Eventually I will cut my deeps into mediums.

Did you spray the PC with sugar syrup and Honey Bee Healthy? I understand that it helps with acceptance, thought that I would try it.
Bill

[thesurveyor]

BULLSEYE,

I did spray my PC with sugar syrup and Honey-B-Healthy. They love that stuff too. I am currently running a deep and two medium supers on the hives with PC. I will probably do away with the deep and cut it down to a medium. That will give me three mediums for a brood chamber. The hives have exploded with the PC. The other hives are lagging behind. They were all about the same strength when they came out of the winter. The PC hives seem to be stronger an have alot more bees than the regular comb hives. Maybe just a coincidence, but there is a noticable difference.

If your results are 1/2 as good as mine I think you will be very pleased.

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I put two boxes of wax dipped PermaComb in a hive that was mine that I gave to a friend. When I went through the hive, before putting them on, I notices a lot of queen cells and no open brood. There was capped brood and emerging brood. That was a week ago. I went back today and went through it again and still no open brood, just emerging brood now. I think it's queenless. I was hoping to see if the queen would lay in it, but I think they failed to get a queen after the old one left in a swarm.

Anyway, they are happily filling it up with honey. No acceptance problems.

I will keep you all posted.

[thesurveyor]

I am definitely going to cut my medium supers to fit the permacomb. I am getting tire fo having to fight the brace comb and burr comb that they are building. When you violate beespace like that it is our own fault. Is it safe to assume the super should be 6 3/8 with the plastic wings trimmed off the PC.

Any suggestions on how to solve the problem or cutting the box the only way?

Thanks

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

Before you cut too many boxes try a few and see what happens. If you have really thin top bars and bottom bars on frames they will often connect it. In PermaComb you have NO top bars or bottom bars. They may connect it solid regardless of the box height.

I agree 6 3/8" would be the proper height.

[John Seets]

Surveyor,

With the 6 5/8" boxes, are you currently running into "brace comb" problems with the new PC in the brood boxes? I have found that they do draw about a 3/8" length of it along the bottom of the frames but not to the extent of connecting to the frames in the box below it. I HAVE however seen this type of frame above connecting to frame below in the honey supers ESPECIALLY when they have run or are running out of room to store the incoming nectar.

If this brace comb issue is NOT current, try waiting and then evaluate.

On the SIDES of the frames and the box (esp. in brood boxes), they do seem to want to propolize the "wings" to the box. I've treated it as a simple annoyance in the past but decided to go ahead and use the table saw to cut the wings off of the frames to see what happens.

Remember to clean the frame ends and rests of propolis regularly.

Thanx.

John

[thesurveyor]

John,

They are building the PC together from one box to another. It is generally anywhere from two or three frames. They are laying a good number of brood in the comb they are building between the frames, because when I break the boxes apart there is larva an pupa exposed after I break the comb. Not to mention that the frames are joined at the bottom of the box, or top of the corresponding box. They have accepted the PC and are using it, they are just glueing them together with comb.

Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited April 14, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

I'd try cutting the ears off all the way around and cutting a box or two down in size. I just cut the ears off with a sharp knife and it worked ok. Of course you have to cut away from yourself and not toward yourself or you'll be in the emergency room getting stiches.

[thesurveyor]

I will try the smaller box and take the plastic ears off the bottom and sides.

Mike, have you tried the PC in a smaller box or are you just now getting warm days at your location?

Thesurveyor

[Michael Bush]

I have it in a standard box on a hive that is apparently queenless. I cut some of the ears off and left some on in the same box, so I caould compare the results. I have also considered that you could make a piece of wood and attach it to the bottom, but the construction would not be simple because of the slope, so I don't think it's practical.

I don't have my other hives yet. I am supposed to get them this weekend.

[John Seets]

Surveyor;

I know I have some brood boxes out there that have been cut down in the past. I will find some and eval what's going on at the bottom of the frames and let you know. Wings are still on the bottoms of my frames.

The brood they are raising attached to the bottom/top of your frames is exclusuvely drone brood - correct?

Thanx.

John

[thesurveyor]

Not necessarily, mostly drone with some worker brood.

It is just very annoying to break two boxes apart and half the bottom box comes with the top box.

Maybe I just have over active bees. They are in high production. The honey flow for poplar is expected any day. They have started filling PC supers with honey from other plants in the area. It is really exciting to see they have accepted the stuff and are using it. Two hives that have it consist of the following. 1 deep brood box, 1 medium with regular comb, full of honey, 3 PC supers, (1 with honey only and 2 brood box) hives are very strong.

Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited April 15, 2003).]

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Don't know if this will help you, but;
When I break my boxes I first crack them slightly with the hive tool. Then I will grab them both at the place where they rest upon each other and twist them in opposite directions.
I don't have my PC in production yet, but this works with regular frames.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I second Bullseye Bills method. I always do that anyway because sometimes they are attached with regular frames too and you end up picking up frames from below. Always twist it. Or after breaking the propolis, slid it in the direction that the frames run.

[newguy]

Something I haven't noticed mentioned here was told me by John's brother, Mike, at my beekeeping class (Howard County). He said he just uses his hive tool to uncap his frames. No hot knife or anything like that needed -- he says you just scrape both sides and throw it into the extractor. That means that you can save some time and don't need to get a $60 uncapping knife -- something I want to consider as a beginner.
Also, since it takes 7-8 pounds of honey to make a pound of wax, a beginner who doesn't have drawn wax comb can use PermaComb and get more honey. (theoreticly) Mike has used it for ten years, and after hearing him, you wonder why the world isn't using it! Anyway, he got me thinking, and I might be putting in an order soon!
NewGuy

[Michael Bush]

It is a problem for a beginner when everyone keeps saying you should give them drawn comb for this or that. With PermaComb, it's all drawn comb. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

If you space it 9 frames I think you could uncap with just a regular knife. At 10 frames in a super I'm not sure how much wax there will be other than the caps.

[John Seets]

Honey Punch! Honey Punch! Use a Hackler Honey Punch! To uncap PC (great for all wax comb too!)

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I don't know about you John, but I think I'll get a Hackler honey punch... http://www.beesource.com/ubb/tongue.gif
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I put three packages on wax coated PermaComb. One is in my observation hive. One is in a five frame nuc and one is in two medium boxes. I've also added some PermaComb to a couple of other hives. The other hives have been storing honey in it. For all of the packages I put a pollen/honey paste in the top inch and a half of one of the frames. The bees use it just like they put it there. It's a nice head start. I think I'll try starting some nucs with PermaComb where I fill a frame with honey, a frame with pollen and a frame with water and see if it gives them a jump start. The pollen sure worked.

The queen in the observation hive has been observed laying in the wax coated PermaComb and they are storing honey and more pollen in it. I have not been able to see any eggs yet because the bees are so thick on the combs where she's laying. I assume the same is taking place in the other hives with the PermaComb.

[thesurveyor]

The honey flow is going strong here in NC. The bees have stopped building as much brace comb between the boxes. I guess they are preoccupied with all that Tulip Poplar and Locust. We will see if they go back to their old ways after the main flow ends.

Just my experience so far.

Thesurveyor

[John Seets]

All:
FYI: After trimming the side "wings" off of previoiusly used brood frames and placing them BACK into the brood chambers of 6 5/8" boxes, the bees are NO LONGER propolizing the sides of the frames to the sides of the box. I was very pleased to see this. The next experiment is to trim the frames bottom wings off and see if this reduces comb bridging from the bottoms of the frames in one super to the tops in the one below it (also in 6 5/8" boxes). If anyone does this first, please let us know the outcome.

Thanx.

[thesurveyor]

Just an observation. checked my strongest hive yesterday. They had taken the BeePro patties, placed in the hive, and stored them in the permacomb. They did not put any in the drawn comb, but filled the PC full. Not sure why, but they sure filled the PC. They chewed the paper and threw it outside.

Any ideas if there is any method to their madness.

Thesurveyor

[This message has been edited by thesurveyor (edited May 02, 2003).]

[thesurveyor]

Well the strongest hive has started working on the 5th super. All the other 4 supers are full. Second strongest hive has started on its 4th super. Anyone else have any PC full of honey. I can tell by using the PC it looks like my honey increase will be significant.

And the best part is that the wax moths cannot bore through it. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

Thesurveyor

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Since I am converting over to PC my first move is to install two mediums of PC for brood, when they get that filled I will have two deeps and two meds and will split right after the honey flow. A couple of hives are still not up to speed yet, and are only now ready for the addition of PC for extra broods.

I hived a big swarm in a five frame PC nuc today. Yesterday when I caught them I only had three frames in the box, within 16 hours they had a significant amount of comb already drawn. I will rip it out tomorrow and measure to see what size cells they want to draw out.

I think since it is such a large swarm, I will give them a full medium tomorrow.

I trimmed off all three sides of tabs tonight. I will probably measure and trim off my box in the morning before I install the swarm in the medium.

More tomorrow,
Bill

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Because of weather and weekend activities, I did not get the swarm moved into a wood box until today. In five days the bees were able to make about sixty square inches of drawn comb.

It was attached under the medium PC frames in a deep waxed corrigated MDA swarm box.

I like those boxes, they are very convenient, however I was supprized that the bees had eaten quite a bit of the flaps on the bottom of the box.

The most interesting thing that I noticed is that after taking the drawn wax inside to take a closer look, I found not one egg in the wax cells. I saw the queen, she does look young and the swarm does have some drones with it. My assumption is that she prefers to lay in the PC, or she is not laying at all.

The swarm was caught late Thursday evening and hived Tuesday morning, surely she would be laying by then...?

Another observation is that when I pulled the first frame from the outside of the swarm box, it was half full of nectar! They had two full days of rainy weather, one full day of cool cloudy, and breezy, and only one nice day to forrage.

As for finding eggs in the PC... I guess I'll have to wait for larva.

That PC fills up quickly, I have already added another medium nuc box and now I have a feeder on top to help give them a kickstart.

Monday, even though it was raining most of the day, I got a call to come get another swarm, a good four pounds of bees from under a spreading juniper, basically on the ground. They are now enjoying the same housing as the first hive, except only one medium of PC in nuc and a feeder on top. Both of these will be requeened with Cordovan queens Friday.

I have trimmed off all the tabs around the PC, and trimmed off 1/4 inch from the bottom of my boxes, that leaves 3/8 bee space under the frames. I am anxious to see what happens.
Bill

[Michael Bush]

I'm curious if trimming the boxes will work. I suspect they might still attach the comb because the cells run all the way to the edge, but I hope they don't. Keep us posted.

I added boxes of the wax coated permacomb to several hives here and the queen seems to prefer to lay in it over the wax. Maybe it's because it's small cell.

They do fill it up quickly. I put a package in a 5 frame nuc of permacomb with one filled with pollen (by me) on April 18th and they filled it up with honey pollen and brood a week and a half ago and I split it into two five frame nucs and they filled one of those up which I moved to an 8 frame box.

In spite of the mess of connecting things together I think it saves the bees a huge amount of time and work and gives me permanent comb. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif I like it.

My observation hive is all connected solid. I have it set up for standard medium frames but have the wax coated permacomb in it. They now have brood in three of four frames. My guess is in another few weeks they will decide to swarm, if I don't move some out. I think I might let them just to watch the preparations.

[John Seets]

Bill,
I think you are underestimating the amount of PC to give the swarm hives initially. I always start a swarm on 2 mediums of PC. Even then, if you don't watch them closely they will start swarm cells very quickly let alone start drawing all kinds of comb as you found out. Being a swarm hive, they will need even MORE room before you know it; more so than esablished colonies of the same bee strength. Once they are really into the 2 mediums, I usually put on a full-depth super of foundation or drawn. That gives them 1 FD box and 2 mediums for brood. All of my honey supers are PC. This combo has worked best for me. Hope this helps.
Thanx.
John

[thesurveyor]

Bees are filling the PC full of honey at a rate of a super every three days. I would have great a harvest if it would quit raining. Oh, well I am glad of the supers that are full now.

I put a swarm on two medium supers, they filled the two supers with honey before the queen really had a chance to start laying. So I am giving them foundation to at least slow them down long enough for the queen to catch up on making a brood chamber.

I am planning on using the PC from now on, it keeps the wax moths at bay and creates jumps start for the bees.

Thesurveyor

[cochran500]

Has anyone extracted any honey from the PC and tasted it? The reason I ask is that a commercial beekeeper told me that the plastic will give the honey a slight off taste but nothing that would be noticed by the occasional honey eater. Comments/Opinions?

Marty

[Michael Bush]

All of my plastic, be it Rite Cell or PermaComb has been wax coated. I have not harvested any PermaComb but the Rite Cell did not have any noticable flavor.

[Dragon's gold]

Marty, I extracted a bit of honey from my PC. Wild flower, but it tastes wonderful. Planning on taking it with me to the shindig in Youngstown, GA this weekend.

[cochran500]

Thanks for the replies. Was interested to hear that no off tastes are associated with the plastic because I am planning on giving the PC a try.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Does it get any easier to see eggs in PC as the plastic gets older?

The only way I can see the brood pattern, and I hope it is not just hopeful thinking, is to see the band of honey and pollen.

I assume that inside of the rainbow of honey is the brood. After they get a little older I will know for sure, but for now I can't see the newly layn eggs.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

After a couple of generations of brood the cocoons make it darker. I have some that have hatched one and two generations and they are already darker.

[John Seets]

Bill, I have had that problem with new brood PC comb too. Tough to see white on white. As Mike indicated, they eventually darken enough with use to make this easier. You CAN still see the eggs in new comb on sunny days. I can't when cloudy.
Thanx.

[Michael Bush]

I've wax coated the first 500 and have been installing it. I just got another 500. The bees love it and it is a huge head start. I put two new packages in hives side by side and the PermaComb one had filled two boxes with bees and honey and I made a five frame split off of it. The non-PermaComb one has not quite filled one. I'd say the PermaComb one grew at least three times the rate of the non PermaComb one.

The only things I don't like are how much work it is to wax coat it (because I want small cell) and the connecting the brood comb solid from one box to the next. I am considering cutting some boxes down to see how that goes. Has anyone tried that? Did it help? I figure at worst it will narrow it to one row of brood getting destroyed. On the other hand, there are two advantages to the brood they raise there. Drones and emergency queens. Otherwise there is nowhere to build drone cells because they can't change the PermaComb.

I split the queen and two frames out of my observation hive to see how they would raise emergency queens and most, but not all, of them are off of the brood in that space between the frames.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>The bees love it and it is a huge head start.

I know how my bees are doing, and I'm diggin' it.

>I'd say the PermaComb one grew at least three times the rate of the non PermaComb one.

I put two swarms in PC about the twenty first of May. I now have three brood mediums almost full and am ready to add honey supers. That's an average of a super per week, I have never seen bees fill boxes so fast. I can't keep up building boxes! http://www.beesource.com/ubb/eek.gif

>I am considering cutting some boxes down to see how that goes. Has anyone tried that? Did it help?

See above post, May 21st. I trimmed off 1/4 inch so as to leave 3/8 inch bee space. They still fill inbetween the frames. I have used two different types of nine frame spacers, the ones that come with the PC and some metal ones that I already had. The metal ones let the frames sit a bit lower and allows for a bit more space above those frames.

I just wonder if the queen cells will be braced on both sides to two frames. You would surely destroy any cells like that while manupliating the frames.

>I split the queen and two frames out of my observation hive to see how they would raise emergency queens and most, but not all, of them are off of the brood in that space between the frames.


?HUH?

Bill

[Michael Bush]

>>I split the queen and two frames out of my observation hive to see how they would raise emergency queens and most, but not all, of them are off of the brood in that space between the frames.

>?HUH?

That comb that they build between the bottom of one frame and the top of the next is where most of the queen cells are.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Not only did I trim the boxes, I also trimmed off the tabs on the PC.

I opened up two hives today and noticed that they were not completely filled in between the frames. It was more like intermitent brace comb.

Upon further review, I wasn't ready for the next box yet. They still had plenty of room left in the third brood. That may also be why it wasn't braced too bad yet.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I'm thinking even if they do attach it solid and fill it with brood, it will tear up less brood if I cut the boxes down. So far I haven't had the heart to. I think it doesn't matter on the supers.

[John Seets]

Still seems to me that PC brood chambers need at least SOME drone for proper hive harmony. If you think this as well and still cut off the tabs and shorten the boxes to combat brace comb, the bees will no longer have the space they need to raise the drones. In that scenario, should you still want drones, you can hacksaw or table saw cut a 3 inch square off the corner of one or more frames. The bees will draw exclusively drone comb there. I've done this in the past when eliminating the drone comb as a varroa control.

Queens on PC: Yes, they seem with little exception to put QCs on the bottom of the frames which are usually destroyed when pulling the frames for inspection. Makes spotting them easier, too.

Thanx.

John

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I had on two of my colonies slatted racks. One of them was on upside down http://www.beesource.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif...yeah, well it had copious amounts of drone brood. Every frame had a three inch high row from front to back with solid drone comb.

It took me a long time to pull and inspect all that comb for mites, luckily I found none.

This present batch of PC is also going on cut down boxes, but I am leaving the tabs on. By what I've seen so far there will be plenty of drone comb to go around, but if you need more, just fill a deep with PC. I think you will have plenty then http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif

Bill

[Michael Bush]

My guess is they will still build some drone comb in between. Hopefully less of it. I have a lot of drone between but still at least half of the brood between the frames is worker brood. You can always cut down a wooden frame to be 6" high and put drone foundation in if you want drones.

I still haven't cut any boxes down yet.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Cut down some old deeps, it won't hurt too much, I promise. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif

Bill

[Michael Bush]

It just seems like such a commitment and a departure from standardization, which is something I always long for.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

That old equipment that I am cleaning up needed to be trimmed a bit anyway.

An observation that I made tonight while stacking the cut mediums with the uncut PC was that there is a very thin gap inbetween the upper and lower frames. I am sure that the bees are just treating the combs in this configuration as just a 12" deep, or 18", or 24". I think you get what I mean, it lets the queen travel at will up and down unimpeded.

I watch my observation hive queen walk up and down three frames all the time. I'm sure that it happens in the hive too.

Makes me wonder why I reverse the boxes...

Bill

[Michael Bush]

My observation hive has PC with the tabs cut off, mostly because I wanted to see how they used the pc. It is, as you say. They use it like it's one big comb with an occasional small communication hole to the other side in the filled in space between the PC. But I've seen a queen walk from one frame to the other (when I had frames in there) like it was nothing also. I don't bother reversing boxes unless I've got an empty one on the bottom at the end of the winter. And still I've seen the bees and the queen work their way down more often than up. Mostly they tend to start at the top of whatever you put them in and work their way to where ever there is room.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I have to trim my PC to fit in the waxed cardboard swarm/bait boxes I bought.

Are yours the same, or did I just get a bad batch?

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I can fit them in the MDA boxes, but they fit better trimmed. You do need to realize that the end bars of the frames in an MDA box are right up against the ends. Even with standard frames. There is not bee space on purpose. It's so the frames won't swing when transporting them. The bees are expected to get from frame to frame on the bottom or the top, but not the ends.

Of course these boxes are made for deeps and the permacomb is very shallow for these boxes and if you leave a swarm in them very long they will draw comb on the bottom of the permacomb.

The other swarm boxes I've seen from Brushy Mt and Mann Lake don't fit anything well. The frames don't space right in any direction at all, but the material is nice and stiff and weather resistant.

The plastic ones from MDA are a little to bendable and I don't like them much either. The plain cardboard ones from MDA are very nice for temporary, but they can't handle any rain.

[dm2]

I have a small colony of package bees I hived into a standard deep about the first week of May. We missed the dandelion bloom, which is a major player in getting bees started in northern Utah. The queen is laying and there are eggs, brood and new bees, but not very many of them. The bees have only drawn out about four frams, some of it with space between the comb and the foundation.

I bought some PC from John a couple weeks ago and put a medium box on after spraying the PC with 1:1 syrup and HBH, but the bees aren't using the PC at all. With lots of room still in the deep, maybe I need to wait to put on the PC medium. I would really like to get the queen up into the medium full of PC, because the workers can't build comb fast enough for her. Would it make any sense to move her up into the medium and keep her there with a queen excluder? I figure I will eventually sell or give away the deep box anyway.

DUane

[BULLSEYE BILL]

You can't fool Mother Nature, and you can only do so much for your bees. The one thing I think you are missing is that you did not mention that you are feeding them. I think if you were they would have more comb by now.

Here in the land of Oz, we are lucky to get any surplus honey the first year after hiving the package.

>The bees have only drawn out about four frams, some of it with space between the comb and the foundation.

I normally scrape this off. Be sure to push your frames together, split the excess space on both sides of the box.

>and put a medium box on after spraying the PC with 1:1 syrup and HBH

Spray some on your deep foundation as well.

> I would really like to get the queen up into the medium full of PC, because the workers can't build comb fast enough for her.

If that were true she would already be up there.

>Would it make any sense to move her up into the medium and keep her there with a queen excluder?

I wouldn't try to force that, if anything I would remove the medium until the deep is 80% covered with bees, not necessarly fully drawn, but at least started.

I suppose that you could leave it on and use it as a feeder. Pour your syrup into the cells of the PC or even honey if you have some that came from your hives, Bee pro patties can also be rubbed into the PC making it into an artifical brood chamber.

If I am going to 'force' anything, it will be brood production by stimulating them with feeding.

>I figure I will eventually sell or give away the deep box anyway.

My plan is to move them out eventuly too. However it is a harder thing to do once you have them in production. Don't rule out cutting them down into medium depth boxes.

Another good use for them is to put a bottom on it and use it for hive inspections. After inspecting a frame put it in the box, this way the queen will not travel to an already inspected frame or crawl off into the grass. You can also carry things to the yard in it.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

Bill is giving you good advice.

[dm2]

I forgot to mention that I have been feeding them, though I did not start right off. I was probably ten days getting a feeder on. It is on top of the medium with the Permacomb, so maybe it is too far away. Come to think of it, they consumed more when it was right on top of the deep HB.

This is my first hive, so if I put honey in the PC it would have to be honey from my uncle up in Wyoming. It is all crystallized. Should I melt it in warm water and then pour it all over the frames? Should I add HBH? HOwland Blackiston said he wouldn't feed pollen substitute now, but there aren't many foragers and there isn't much bloom going on right now, except for a big mallow on our patio and some evening primrose they don't seem interested in. I guess putting pollen substitute in the PC would encourage brood-rearing there. Should I put it in with honey or alone?

[dm2]

I also tried a couple patties of BeePro pollen substitute on the tops of the 9" frames a couple of weeks ago, but they didn't eat much of it and it started to grow green fuzzy stuff. I scraped it all off this week and it was almost like rock. I mixed it according to the instructions and it was almost like bread dough that was a bit too wet. How wet should it be to put in cells? If I put some in the PC, should I put it in cells along the top of the frame? Should I put honey in separate cells? Or in with the BeePro? I'll have to find those pictures of brood frames again.

[Michael Bush]

It may not make much difference anyway, but if you want to put pollen subsitute in the PermaComb, go ahead. I mixed pollen/pollen substitute (50/50) and honey together and put it in with a spatula. I made it so that when it was warm (80 degress or so) it was the consistency of biscut dough. I filled the whole frame, both sides and put it in my nucs when doing splits. I put it on the ouside so they could raise brood in the middle three frames. I filled another frame with honey. I did the same with it. Heated the honey to about 80 degrees or so and worked it in with a spatula and then waited for it to run down in (with the frame horizontal) I only filled one side with honey. You could fill it with 1:1 syrup, or syrup with HBH. I wouldn't count on it making them move into the next box though. They won't do that until they run out of room in the first box.

[dp]

Am I the only person to have bees that don't want to accept PC? I have 2 hives that are using it to store sourwood in and 2 hives that appear not to be touching it. The PC is being used as brrod chambers in all 4 hives. I sprayed all the frames with honey-b-healthy before I installed them. I do not see any capped brood in the frames ,only honey. Any ideas?

[Michael Bush]

I wax coated mine, so I have had no problems. I'm on my second batch of 500 now.

[John Seets]

dp,

The PC does NOT have to be wax coated for the bees to use it.

What is your hive configuration? i.e: Are you using ONLY the PC for the brood chambers and how many boxes per brood chamber? Are these new package hives or established from previous year(s).

You indicate "and 2 hives that appear not to be touching it". Does that mean that the bees are not working the frames at all? Brood or honey? Did you check for eggs? How long ago did you put on the PC?

I have noticed a similar situation in one of my established hives where I have 1 full deep and then 2 PCs on top that. They are raising brood in the deep but storing only honey in the PCs. However, the caveat here is that this hive has a pollen trap on it. One possible explanation is that if the rate of pollen collection is not sufficient, the queen will not lay there. Perhaps the nectar is coming in fast enough for the bees to put it whereever they have room. Honey storage will ALWAYS displace egg laying space.

Also, new plastic comb has to be polished with propolis before the queen will lay in it. I'm NOT sure that this is the case for honey storage. Maybe conditions are not favorable for propolis production at this time.

Weather conditions and population also affect how the bees working new plastic comb. There are many variables. Swarms work the PC the fastest.

Hope this helps.

Thanx.

John

[Michael Bush]

I didn't mean to imply that it needed to be wax coated for acceptance, but that mine is wax coated and therefore I've not had any problems whatsoever. My reasons are small cells. Otherwise it is WAY too much work compared to spraying with HBH etc.

[dp]

John,
Here's the scoop. 3of the hives are nuc's started last of april. 1 is a swarm captured in June. All hives have 1 deep for brood and two pc's placed on top. 2 hives are storing honey in the pc. The other 2 the bees are just walking around on the pc. There is no bood present in the pc. In all hives the queen stays in the deep. The pc has been installed almost 3.5 weeks. There are no pollen traps installed on any hive.

[John Seets]

Hi dp;

From what you have told me, I can only conclude that the bees reluctance to work/queen eggs in the PC is due to environmental factors such as unavailable nectar, pollen or propolis and/or unfavorable weather conditions. Colony population can also be a factor. Talking to beekeepers in Southern VA and NC, I have heard some say that they have to feed their hives now because of all the rain received indicating a lack of available nectar and sparse stored honey this year. I'm not saying this is true in your case - I'm just repeating what I've heard.

It seems that many of us this year along the east cost have experienced less than ideal nectar flow conditions. This year is one of my worst years for surplus honey that I can remember.

I have heard that this is a heavy Varroa year. My sugar roll tests have confirmed this. Bees stressed by heavy Varroa infestation will NOT work new PC.

I WILL say that PermaComb is not a magic pill. NO bee equipment is in my experience. It requires a number of favorable conditions to exist for the bees to FIRST work the plastic. Once the comb is "cycled" by the bees, any hive regardless of strength will use the comb as readily and drawn wax comb.

I have been using the PC since '75 and I won't tell you that EVERY YEAR has been wonderful with every hive. But all said and done, I STRONGLY believe that the advantages of using the PC heavily outweigh using drawn wax comb from foundation for many reasons.

By the way, have the bees that are not touching the PC, completed drawing and are fully using the deep? If not, they won't work the PC if they were installed in a deep with foundation UNTIL the foundation is seriously being used AND if there is still a flow on AND the CURRENT weather conditions are favorable for foraging, etc.

Hope my thoughts are useful.

Thanx.

John

[dp]

On a couple of the hives that have accepted the pc, i have decided to try a experiment. These hives have already built drone comb on the bottom of the frames in the deep. I see no need for them to build more drone comb between the pc and the deep. I decided to glue a grooved bottom bar across the bottom of the pc. I beleive that this will be within the allowable bee space. I have tried this with a few other frames in 1 hive. So far the bees have not attached the pc to the deep. Today I decided to expand this to few more frames. I will continue to monitor this hive and report back what has happened.
1 more hive has now decided to start accepting the pc.

[Michael Bush]

A grooved bottom board might help. If the groove fits 1/16" up into the slope on the bottom and the bottom strip is 3/8" than that comes to about 5/16" bee space between which is really perfect.

Let us know how it works out.

[dp]

Today I went and checked out the hive where I had glued grooved bottom bars on the pc. Did this stop them from making drone comb between the pc and the deep? The answer is yes and no. On some frames there was no attempt to build drone comb and on others there was some attempt to build. I decided to go back and scrape of the comb and this time I took care to do a good job scraping everything. It could be that I did not do a good job of clean up last time. The total amount of comb scraped off could be placed in a tablespoon. I am going to wait until next Friday or Saturday before I check again. I will continue to let everyone know what is going on.

[dp]

Today I checked hive number 2 on which I installed grooved bottom bars on the pc. Out of the 20 frames only 1 was somewhat attached to the deep. It appears that gluing these grooved bottom bars on the bottom of the pc just about eliminates the making of drone comb. Saturday I will go back to hive 1 and check again to see if there is any attachment of drone comb.

[dp]

Final report on experiment with pc. Today I checked on hive 1 and found only 2 frames of pc attached to the deep. It appears that adding a grooved bottom bar to the pc eliminates the building of drone comb. For those interested here is what I did. I ordered grooved bottom bars from Rossman Apiaries and glued them to the bottom of the pc. I used gorillia glue, a little of this stuff goes a long way. Since I did not have any clamps to hold the bottoms bars in place while the glue dried, I used duct tape to hold the bars. After about 3 hours the glued had dried. It appears that the pc is now within the allowable bee space. The amount of comb attached to the two frames was less than a fourth of a teaspoon.

[Michael Bush]

It is a combination of beespace and some kind of boundry that seems to stop the connections. According to those who have tried it, cutting the boxes down down't stop it, but cuts down on it.

I may try this and see what I think. I do think I wouldn't bother for the supers.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I'm baaack...
Been without a computer for five weeks, the pain, the agony, the withdrawal...

I have cut some boxes down and had two very distinct results from two different cuts.

First I cut down some new boxes, 3/8ths off the bottom. Perhaps a bit less, it was two good thicknesses of my ten inch table saw blade. I also cut off the tabs on three sides of the PC.

The girls buildt cells inbetween the tops and bottoms of the PC. A bit of a struggle to seperate sometimes.

The next time I cut boxes down I had some old boxes that were given to me and after scraping and torching and putting too much time in them to make it worthwile, I trimmed the bottoms off like the first AND also took a blade with off the tops as well. The boxes really needed to be trimmed, they were pretty rough. I also left the tabs in place on the PC.

This time the girls didn't build inbetween the tops and bottoms, they propolized instead. It was no struggle to seperate them, it was a 817c4! Lucky for me it's been around 100 most days lately, I hope I can get them apart when it cools off.

I think for the most part I will use the boxes and PC in the intended configuration although I still am not sure why the PC has those little tabs around them.

Bill

[John Seets]

Bill;
Those little tabs are left over from the injection molding process. No way to eliminate them unless I PAID the manufacturer to cut them off. Not likely.
Thanx.
John

[swarm_trapper]

these frames have been around for years but never have i heard of some one useing them is there a catch? http://www.beesource.com/ubb/confused.gif

[dp]

Pc is good and there is no catch. If you don't want the brood boxes connected, you can do what I did. Glue a grooved bottom bar to the pc. This has worked for me. Out of 2 supers, only 2 frames are slightly attached. I wouldn't do this for the supers, only for the brood chambers.

[Michael Bush]

It has changed my methods some. First they do attached from one frame to the one below. Second, the spacing is a bit of pain because you have to handle frames differently since you can't just pry them apart you have to lift them. Third the spacing (if using the spacers) on the top is a little shy for a beespace at the top. All of these things are not that big of a deal, but take some gettting used to.

I love it.

[swarm_trapper]

Whats the cost?

[Michael Bush]

I'm buying it 500 at a time and with shipping (to Greenwood, NE) it comes to $3.40 a comb.

[dp]

The cost is $3.50 per frame. I bought 70 frames. I think that there are a couple of reasons why more people don't use it. One is cost. A lot of beekeepers that I know won't fork over the money. The second is that it comes only in mediums. Most of the beekeepers that I know have their bees in deeps and shallows. Very few keep them in mediums. I guess it depends on what part of the country you live in.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bill;
Those little tabs are left over from the injection molding process. No way to eliminate them unless I PAID the manufacturer to cut them off. Not likely.
Thanx.
John


John- I thought that they were put there intentionaly for some important reason unknown to me.

Now I don't feel so bad about cutting them off, it does make them easier to scrape and clean. Once the table saw is set up it takes only seconds to trim them up. If I could only make boxes faster...

By the way, thanks again for the lightning fast service on my last order! Four days from the coast, and only one in the covered wagon!



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[swarm_trapper]

a beekeeper around here has had troubel with the plastic EZframes warping and his auto uncapper shoots them out. do yall think this would be a problem with these frames?

[Michael Bush]

I'm not sure what an AutoUncapper does, or to be more specific, how it does it. But I'm guess you would NOT want to use it with PermaComb. It is FULLY DRAWN comb. If you aren't careful you'll cut the platic instead of the wax and anything that is doing things automaticaly is not doing them carefully. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

I have had a few combs that were a little curved coming out of the box. I just flexed them a little and they straighted right out.

[John Seets]

All,

As a reminder, PermaComb info, pictures, specs and pricing can be found at the following link: http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/permacomb.htm

Price ranges are:

10-150: 3.50/ea
160-490: 3.25/ea
500-990: 3.00/ea
1000+: 2.90/ea

Contact me for dealer pricing if interested.

Thanx.

John

[John Seets]

Mike, you stated that..

"Second, the spacing is a bit of pain because you have to handle frames differently since you can't just pry them apart you have to lift them."

If you don't mind me asking, what sort of hive tool do you use to work the PC; and how do you pry them up?

Thanx.

John

[Michael Bush]

I have an Italian Hive tool from Brushy Mt, which has the hook on the end. If you lift one end of a frame, where do you put it? Now you lift the other end, where do you put it? If you set it over on top of the spacer it squashes bees on one side. You have to either start at the end frame and remove them over to the one you want or use two hive tools and try to lift both ends at once. I have done them with a hive tool at both ends. I've also done it by lifting it once on each end to break any propolis and then use a frame grip to lift it. Anyway about it it is totally different.

Let's try what I would normally do to find a queen with wood Hoffman frames. I would look at the brood box with the most bees and find the frame with the most bees and pry between it and the frame next to it and force all the frames in both directions out to the edge of the box. Then I would break the other side loose by prying between again. Now there is some extra space on each side of the frame and I would pick it up either by the end bars with my fingers or with a grip.

If I found that same frame of the most bees in the middle of PermaComb, I have to lift each end and just pull it out without any extra space on each side. It rolls a lot of bees off of the comb when I do this and I don't have any way to avoid it.

Don't get me wrong. PermaComb is well worth the few adjustments, but that is one of the adjustments. I can't lift them out like I am used to.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Before PC I lived with a hook type hive tool in one hand and a frame grip in the other. Not that new stamped type grip, but the older rounded cast aluminum one. I REALLY like using a frame grip, but I won't use it on PC for three reasons.

First, I don't like tearing up the comb.
Second, I am fearful of damaging the PC.
Third, I don't want to risk the frame slipping out and falling.

Since I am right handed, I hook the left side first and grip that end with my left hand, then hook the right side and lift straight up. I keep a frame rest handy so I can always remove at least one frame while I manipulate the rest. Some of you would stand it on end and lean it up against the hive, but I don'tlike to do that.

O.K., so I did do that, yesterday, I was at my outfield and I didn't have my rest, and it fell over, and the comb came half way out and had to be smashed back into place. Did I mention that I am not perfect?

When it comes to finding queens I suck awful, so I need all the technique possible.
I made a deep into a box with a bottom. I start looking by removing frame one or nine (ten) giving it a quick look up it and placing it in the box in the same order as taken out of the hive. As I come to the more likely frames, the ones with fresh eggs, larva, denser population, calmer demeaner, I look more closely. I find that removing the frames from one side gives me more room to work, and less bees in the way.

Don't forget, just as when you remove comb from a ferral hive, when you remove a frame (comb), don't fixate on that right away. Pay attention to the next one first, you are likely to see her scurring away from the light. The frame in your hand will still be there to look at if you need to.

Bill

[DLee]

Extracting from PC on a bad year...

I was recently talking with someone who had used PC during a bad year. He had the problem of the bees capping the comb down inside the cells. This created an enormous problem during extraction. Any feedback on this? Thanks.

~Darin

[Michael Bush]

Hackler honey punch? Poke it with an uncapping fork? Use it for winter feed?

[John Seets]

Mike, Bill;

The hooked hive tool is the way to go. I am right handed as well. What works for me is to use the 2nd frame in from the end as a fulcrum to lift the end (first) frame left side end up. I use my fingers of my left hand to then hold it (left frame end). I then fulcrum up the other (right side) of the end frame and lift it up and out on the hook of the tool. Then rest the bottom corner of the right side of the frame (the side on the hook)on top of another frame so I can then grasp the right side of the frame end with my right hand. I keep either an extra medium or FD box handy to put the frame in. I repeat with the second frame in. With 2 frames of the the box, I can then lever the next frames up and over (diagnally) toward the empty frame area. Then lift the frame with your hands and move it over to the 1st empty frame position on the spacer. Don't put the frame INTO the frame slot but put in ON TOP OF the 1st and 2nd frame spacer divider so it now elevated somewhat. Do this with the rest of the frames in the box. When done the box, slide each frame down into the spacer frame slot that it came out of. Removing the initial 2 end frames allows you the extra room to avoid rolling bees and possibly the queen. Using the spacers in a 9-frame configuration makes this process even easier. I do it all the time without thinking. I hope this is not too confusing.

DLee;

Yes, I sometimes run into subsurface cappings on a bad year. Ran into some of this this year. The Hackler Honey punch is perfect for this scenario. Especially the 3" model size. The 5" model is perfect for any type of comb and PC where the whole comb has cappings above or even with the plastic "surface". That's why I have both sizes. A great invention and especially suited for the PC.

Thanx.

John

[dp]

Last Saturday night at our monthly beekeepers meeting,I saw a interesting ad for pc. The ad stated elimination of varroa mite. Only worker cells. The ad was from a 1989 issue of Bee Culture. I got to thinking could this be true. I hived a swarm on May 10. I let the bees pull 10 frames in a deep. There are only worker cells in the deep. I installed 2 boxes of pc and fixed them so that they would not build drone cells on the bottom. So far I have no drones in this hive and no sign of mites. I do have a lot of worker bees.