Permacomb

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I think that a truly healthy colony would have to have a percentage of drones to maintain equalibrium. That said, I have noticed that even after cutting down boxes and trimming tabs, etc. that they WILL find a place to produce drones.

I have mainly found them on the bottoms of the bottom brood frames. On one particular hive I had a slatted rack that was upsidedown http://www.beesource.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif that afforded plenty of space for drone brood, and lots of it for me to diasect looking for mites. I found absolutly none after searching eight chunks of drone brood 3"x18".

The late summer and fall is the time you are more likely to start finding increased numbers of mites, so don't get too excited yet.

Is this a statement that PC will cure all of our varroa problems? No, I would think that if it really would that truth would have come to light long ago.

On the up side we know that small cell is directly linked to disrupting the life cycle of the mite and that PC is a smaller cell, and that it might have some beneficial results in that respect. See also MB's experiment with wax coating the PC down to a small cell. This may also hold some promise.

The real advantage for most of us is the resiliance of the comb from wax moths and SHB. Not to mention longevity, ease of cleaning, not haveing to assemble, wire, on and on and on...

I think it's as good as gold, but don't look for it to cure the common cold.

[John Seets]

Hi, DP;

I think that ad was based on the premis that drone brood is an effective mite magnet. From what I understand, this has been verified in research.

Let me explain. Since PC is 100% worker brood, a section or sections can be removed from the PermaComb frames and the bees will put only drone comb there. This allows the beekeeper to easily clean these all wax drone comb areas with the hive tool in effect reducing the mite poplulation. At least this was the thinking back then.

Personally, I don't think it would eliminate Varroa but I've never done this and tested. Would be intersting to see.

Thanx.

John

[BULLSEYE BILL]

John,
How severe is your varroa problem compared to other beekeepers in your area?

What is your standard treatment?

Do you ever lose any hives to varroa?

I don't know if it is just not that much of a problem in my area, but I have very little varroa to deal with.

I have been using apistan and checkmite in the past, this year I am going to use the oxalic strips. I bought the fogger and FGMO, but so far it has just sat there http://www.beesource.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Maybe I'll get time to use it eventully.

Bill

[John Seets]

Hey, Bill;

Sorry, I can't give you any definitive comparison info on area Varroa losses. The state inspector "might" send out some stats at some point in the year. I don't usually go to Assoc. meets cuz its about a 70 mile round trip for me.

I think you could say I lost some hives to Varroa back in 99. I think that was the year that the mite pressure was high everywhere. Eventhen, I don't think they died of the varroa itself but from the 2ndary infections introduced by varroa such as Parasitic Mite Syndrome. That year, I treated them late summer/early fall with either Apistan or Cumophaus. The mite count dropped to almost zero but the hives that were strong dwindled away anyway and eventually crapped out that winter. I usually do the sugar roll to monitor.

Since then I lost a hive to robbing and 2 to starvation (last winter). The HBH I toot for PC acceptance is supposed to also reduce mite procreation. I started using that last year and should be figured into what happens I suppose.

I've been very bad this year and have only done 1 sugar roll test last spring. I need to do another now to determine whether treatment is warranted. If I do treat, I will use the Cumophaus for 2 reasons:

1) Research presented winter MD. State Beekeepers Assoc (this year) showed conclusively significantly better mite drop counts on sticky boards than with the Apistan
2) I personally have found the mite decimation is more complete with the Cumophaus over the Apistan.

Of course, depending on the results of the sugar roll will determine which hives to treat. Hopefully none.

I'd like to hear the results if you use oxalic or fumigate w/the oil.

Thanx.

John

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Here is an interesting observation:

I waited for the second hiving to be reassured that this is the case. When I do a colony removal I make special frames that I will put the ferral comb into and then hive the bees and brood into a new box. The earlier ones I would crowd the comb and let them work around the violated bee space. I would place a full box of PC above and let them move up as needed.

On the two last hivings I did I had extra bulky comb that would not fit nicely into the box. I intermingled PC between those combs and found that the bees had prefeered to use the PC rather than rebuild and reuse their own comb.

In other hivings they would rebuild the comb to nearly fill the frames and normally use these for honey storage. However, when given a choice I have found that the bees will choose to use the PC before their own comb especially for brood. The one exception is when they made emergency queen cells, they made one frame that looked like a porcupine.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I thought maybe it was a natural sized cell thing but in all the hives I put PermaComb in the queens seem to prefer to lay in the PermaComb over the comb built on oversize (normal?) foundation.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

A number of different reasons come to mind as to why. The most likely to me would be that we both spray our PC with HBH-syrup, or perhaps they like the uniformity of the PC.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

>A number of different reasons come to mind as to why. The most likely to me would be that we both spray our PC with HBH-syrup, or perhaps they like the uniformity of the PC.

I have been wax coating mine, so I skipped the HBH spray on the combs. I have used HBH for other things including a spray bottle of 1:2 syrup to used to calm the bees.

Even not wax coated PermaComb is the equivelant of 5.1mm cell size so it's closer to natural and maybe the queen likes that and the uniformity of it.

[Juandefuca]

Hi fokls
Just found this site and here are my findings .
I tried 20 combs just to find out .
First of all I am impressed by the quality of the manufacutred item .
The combs were placed in two different colonies among drawn combs and wax foundations .
The bees were reluctant to work on the permacomb although I wetted it with 1:1 Syrup.
At the latest check the center of the comb area is now capped and looks very good.
The hackler punch poses some problems with waxcombs
,although One manages to use it after a few trials and errors . I use it in conjunction with the Tine tool. The size of choice would be the small size if I buy another one . At least this applies to the wax combs .
The bees extending the bottom of the comb but what they will do with it remains to be seen still. Too early to tell here .
Another observation to the so called "Housel" position and its alledged implications : There is no Y pattern in those permacombs bottoms . Any comments ?
I.E there is no Y pattern in old black combs either with those bulletshaped bottoms .
As far as I am concerned the permacomb looks promising indeed. The lifting of the combs poses no problem if one uses an angled tool to pry the ends up using the next comb as a fulcrum as mentioned in the foregoing post !
JDF

[Michael Bush]

>Another observation to the so called "Housel" position and its alledged implications : There is no Y pattern in those permacombs bottoms . Any comments ?

If you hold it up to the light you can see there is an inverted "Y" pattern in the bottom and it is the same from both sides. I think the bees percieve this as all center comb. At any rate it matters not what direction you face it it is all the same.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>The bees extending the bottom of the comb but what they will do with it remains to be seen still. Too early to tell here .

They will mostly fill it in with drone comb, no big loss when seperating the boxes. When used for honey surplus, well, it gets a bit sticky.

>Another observation to the so called "Housel" position and its alledged implications : There is no Y pattern in those permacombs bottoms . Any comments ?


Juan, go back to page five and start reading. There you will find an earlier discussion about the housel/PC theory.

All PC frames are the 'Center' combs.

Centered in Cowtown

[Branman]

I was just interested in hearing how the honey extracting using the PC is going and what method was used to extract, ie honey punch or uncapping knife. Also, any problems?

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Wish I could tell you that I am extracting from sunup to sundown. This year I will probably divide the excess between the weaker colonies.

What I have noticed is that the cappings are everywhere from level with the surface to drawn to the next frame. Most look like they would be very easy to trim off with a knife. The very few that are flush would be easily taken care of with the honey punch.

I think that IF I had any that were capped below the surface, I would leave them for winter stores.

[Juandefuca]

Thanks Bill and Micheal for you comments and explanations . Yes I expect the bottom space to be filled with drone cells . Drones are disirable creatures . Without them , we have no workers unless the event of Thelytoky appears or the equivalent called IC.
Happy pc's
JDF

[John Seets]

Attention PermaComb customers,

END OF SUMMER PermaComb SALE: 25 cents off each PermComb frame UNTIL THE END OF OCTOBER. That means 32.50 per case of 10 frames + spacers. Complete quantity listing is:

10 - 150 frames: 32.50 per case of 10
160 - 490 frames: 30.00 per caes of 10
500+ frames 27.50 per case of 10

This offer is ONLY for BeeSource.com people. Bee-Source.com and reference to this posting MUST be explicitly stated for orders to be valid.

BeeSource.com is the BEST bee site there is and I aim to reward the PC customers who use and contribute to it!

Thanx.

John Seets, National/International Distributor
PermaComb Systems
Catonsville, MD.
john.seets@ngc.com
410-471-4335

[Kathy Cox]

One of my solutions to a number of problems is follower boards. I use 2 in position 1 and 10. I don't use spacers. Lift out one on either end and you've got room for manipulation. It also helps to cut down on the weight I have to lift. I use the frame holder on the side of the box with the top directly under it in case the queen slips off. For commercial beekeepers this method wouldn't work, but as a hobby beekeeper it is a dream.

Kathy Cox, second year beekeeper,Northern California, 18 hives

[Kathy Cox]

I received 40 frames of permacomb in a buy out of a retiring beekeeper. I bought 2 hives, one of which had a super of PC. I wish I would have read the hint about cracking the boxes before removal, but other than having a sticky mess, the combs were perfectly filled out and capped. They were filled just passed the edge of the frame and using the hot knife to remove the cappings worked fine. The few cells that were capped below the knife were speared with the cappings scratcher and the frames extracted nicely. I had most of the PC in a pile of equipment, which had accumulated dirt and earwig poop, so I borrowed a pressuure washer and blasted the PC. I had to bounce the ears on pavement a few times to get the water to come out, but they are nice and clean and in my bee shed waiting for Spring to give them a try. I put a few wet combs in hives to see what the bees do. Now I mixed them up with other comb, so it will not be a test of which the bees went to first, but whether the bees went at all and are they getting filled. I'll let you know!

Kathy Cox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

John, it is very good of you to offer a discount to al the BS contributors. We ALL appreciate it very much.

It is this very kind of cooperation that we were discussing in a post not long ago that I am sure could help both sides of the industry.

Now, if I could just find something to sell to raise some money before the sale is over...



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Kathy Cox]

I sell Dahlias to help support my bee habit.
Kathy Cox

------------------

[BULLSEYE BILL]

> Now I mixed them up with other comb, so it will not be a test of which the bees went to first, but whether the bees went at all and are they getting filled. I'll let you know!

Kathy,
The instructions I have said not to mix PC with other types of frames/foundation. Perhaps with drawn comb it might not be as much of a problem.

Are your boxes set up with nine frame spacers or ten frame spacers? I was going to use ten frame spacing on my brood and nine on the honey supers, but with the advise of John Seets I opted to use nine frame spacing all through my hives.

Let us know how you fare with mixing the frames.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I've mixed them a lot. Mostly putting drawn comb in but also with blank starter strips. I haven't had any problems, but then I wax coated mine.

[John Seets]

Gang, the "no mixing" rule was for mixing the new PC with foundation. Mixing with DRAWN comb doesn't really seem to be an issue and I'd bee willing to venture that in some cases may accelerate acceptance of the plastic. I have not specifically tested this. I do know that if you have "cycled" PC (PC that has been used by the bees for a season) and interleave these frames with NEW PC, that this will accelerate use of the new frames by the bees. Hope this is helpful.
Thanx.
John

[Sungold]

I recently purchased a case of PC, in looking it over I have noticed that about 80% of the frames have some degree of incomplete cell formation (low, thin walls). I am interested to know if others have had this same experience? thanks, cj

[Michael Bush]

I suppose most frames have at least one cell that has a low wall or some other defect. The bees don't care, they just draw them out. It's amazing they can get it to extrude such a complex thing as comb at all.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I recently purchased a case of PC, in looking it over I have noticed that about 80% of the frames have some degree of incomplete cell formation (low, thin walls). I am interested to know if others have had this same experience? thanks, cj


I haven't seen any that bad. I had a few that looked like they were accidently hit with a sander and had a patch that was a bit lower, but nothing like 80%. My bees draw it out further anyway, so it wasn't a problem.

I have not had any acceptance problems with the PC. It is amazing how fast the hives that are 100% PC will take off. On a good flow you will have trouble keeping enough boxes ready they are filled so fast. Don't forget to spray the frames first with syrup and HBH.

Give John a call and talk to him, he is a straight shooter and will make it right.



------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Sungold]

Thanks for the reply(s). Just to be clear, it's not a single cell on a frame its patches of cells. Also its not 80% of the frame, it 80% of the frame"s" have at least a patch of incomplete molded area.

Anyway, it sounds as if others have seen this and it does not impact the performance of the PC.

Just might give some of this a try (next spring).
Thanks, cj

[John Seets]

Hey Gang;

Just a reminder. Only 9 days left til the end of summer PermaComb sale expires! Take advantage of it. See my 9/20 post for details.

Thanx.

John

[Keith Mathers]

Hello to all the contributors of this forum: I've been following this topic from the start and have found myself caught up in the general enthusiasm. Unfortunately there has been very little in the way of postings (now that we're at the end of the season) giving a summing-up of the individual's results and opinions using PermaComb - either as brood comb or in supers. I' really appreciate some feedback if you could spare the time. Thanks, Keith

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>. Unfortunately there has been very little in the way of postings (now that we're at the end of the season) giving a summing-up of the individual's results and opinions using PermaComb - either as brood comb or in supers. I' really appreciate some feedback if you could spare the time. Thanks, Keith


I now have about twenty hives that are 100% Permacomb and the other six are in the process of being changed over. I will remove the last of the deeps next spring when the bees move up and into the PC. Obviously there will be some stores and pollen left over, and that will become splits. The complete changeover will take some time.

I have been very impressed with the speed that my swarms and nucs increased using PC. They seem to be more gentle and definatly more productive. It is also very telling that the 100% PC hives have smaller bees than the hives that still have wax in them. Both I and the bees will be happier when the complete changeover is finished.

For all the positives that I have enjoyed with using the PC, there is only one thing that I don't care for in the PC system. The spacers that come with the PC are plastic, and I have broken a couple of them. When I crack open the boxes, I twist them to keep from lifting the frames from the lower box, the twisting motion will sometimes break off the spacing tabs. I have bought and am installing the metal ones.

I have not had any acceptance problems with the PC. I do however spray them with sugar syrup and HBH for a bit of insurance. One thing I have noticed is that they are more inclined to move up than finishing the outside frames first. This may be a management problem not related to the PC, I am not sure.

I have also enjoyed a lack of varroa and wax moths, how much of this can be attributited to the PC is not clear, time will tell. I had expected to see much more mite infestation than I have, I am going the no chems route. My average mite drop has been about five per week, my only bad count on PC was forty, but that one still had the origional comb from the removal site. Wax moth larva were only noticed on the SBB trays.

All said, I think that the Permacomb is the right choice for me. I tried the Perco and had very poor results. I started with Duragilt and wax foundation that worked fine, but after watching the moths ruin a crashed hive I wanted a good alternative.
I won't miss the wax moth damage.

If you are sitting on the fence wondering if you should try Permacomb, I'll tell you to get the wood out and try it. If the price thing is holding you back, remember that in the long run it will be less expensive than the alternatives. For every argument that I have heard against it so far, there is a management solution that easily overcomes it.

------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Michael Bush]

I can (and have) listed a lot of things I don't like about it. Spacing, weight and cost are the biggest down sides. But all in all I LOVE it. No moths, no SHB, no wiring, no frames to build, an unlimited supply of DRAWN comb, fast buildup and with it wax coated, instant regression to small cell almost indestructable comb. Did I mention that I love it?

[Kathy Cox]

Bill,

I mixed the pc with drawn comb. Seems to be going okay, so far!
Kathy Cox

[Kathy Cox]

>>>>I have not had any acceptance problems with the PC. It is amazing how fast the hives that are 100% PC will take off. On a good flow you will have trouble keeping enough boxes ready they are filled so fast. Don't forget to spray the frames first with syrup and HBH.>>>>
Did you coat the frames with wax? And how do you DO that?
Kathy Cox

[Michael Bush]

>Did you coat the frames with wax?

Bill does not. I do, but not for acceptance, but for getting small cells.

>And how do you DO that?

Here’s what I have for equipment to do this and where I do it. I have an old gas stove with an oven set up outside. I have a table next to that with a “turkey roaster” pan. The pan is thermostatically controlled and has a double boiler/steam table kind of arrangement. Meaning it has a roaster pan inside of the roaster. I can put water in the outside part and a little water in the inside roaster with the wax. This keeps the wax from getting too hot. I set the thermostat to about 250 degrees F which boils the water which keeps the wax about 212 degrees F. I have some rubber dishwashing gloves and a frame grip. I set the oven, using an oven thermometer, so that it is about 200 to 210 degrees F. I put a piece of cardboard on the rack (with a fold so it runs up the back of the oven) and put PermaComb in the oven. If you want something as feedback until you get the hang of it, you can put a small piece of wax in one of the cells of the front PermaComb so you can look and check if it has melted yet. When the PermaComb get’s up to temp (about 20 to 30 minutes) and the wax is up to temp (the wax is melted and the water in it is bubbling a bit) you pull one comb and dip it. My pan isn’t quite deep enough and I have to lay on one side and wait for the bubbles to stop, then the other side and wait for the bubbles to stop, and then because the pan isn’t quite long enough, I have to put the opposite end in and repeat the process. Now that every cell is full of wax, I have to shake as much of the wax back out as I can. I start by holding it upside down with the frame grip and shaking it over the pan. Then I shake it horizontally to shake one side out more and then flip it and shake the other side out more. Then I hit the top of it on the table several times to knock some more wax out and then I move to a spot beside that spot and slam it flat ways a few times on each side. Then I put the comb in a Lanstroth box upside down on the frame rests so it can drain more if it will. Then I do the next comb. After a few combs I go back to the first few combs in the rack and hit them a couple of more times to knock out some more wax and then I put them in a regular box right side up.

I know this sounds complicated, and it is a bit. But mostly it is very messy and very hot. You will have wax all over your clothes and your shoes. The concept is that the comb needs to be hot enough to melt wax so that the wax won’t clump up in the cells. The wax should be hot enough to run well, but not too hot so it doesn’t melt the PermaComb. PermaComb melts at temps over 220 degrees F. Then you get all of the insides of the cells coated and then you try to get all of the excess off so it doesn’t make clumps and drips and fill up the bottoms of the cells.

[johndl]

I haven't tried PC, but have considered it. However, I must say that those of you who love it don't make a terribly convincing case when you describe the wax coating business. Is that really necessary? It leaves me looking for my hammer and nails.

[Michael Bush]

No, wax coating is not at all necessary if you aren't interested in small cells. I am regressing my bees to small cells, so that's why I do it. The bees will happily use it as it is.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>>Did you coat the frames with wax?
>Bill does not. I do, but not for acceptance, but for getting small cells.

It is not necessary to wax coat the PC unless you want smaller than 5.1 mm bees.

It is helpfull to spray the combs with Honey-B-Healthy when installing them, but that also isn't absolutly necessary.

I have, at times, forgotten to spray the combs when installing them and still had good acceptance. I did not spray a comb in my observation hive on purpose just to watch if they would skip that one and go above it to one that was.

I think that when they need room during a flow, they are not as picky and move right in. It's not the same as trying to get them to draw comb on a plastic sheet of foundation. The work is already done and they only need to clean and polish it with propolis to make it ready for use.


------------------
Bullseye Bill
Smack dab in the middle of the country.

[Sungold]

I see folks talking about spraying the PC with syrup w/HBH, are you spraying this on the honey supers that have new PC in them? I ask because I was under the impression that HBH was not to be used while honey supers are on? Don't you end up w/HBH in your honey?
thanks, cj

[BULLSEYE BILL]

A light misting of sugar syrup and HBH is not the same as feeding sugar syrup and HBH.

In the misting you are only using enough to attract the bees. The mist will dry on the plastic and the bees will clean it off while preparing the comb for storage.

In the feeding you will contaminate the stores with the HBH which is actually stored within the honey.

Bill

[John Seets]

New Sales incentive for previous PC customers:

Anyone who has bought a total of 1000 frames in the past qualifies for a discount whereby with any order up to 1000 frames, regardless of quantity, each frame is only 3.00.

Thanx.

[Hillbillynursery]

I hate dealing with brace comb. One of the hives that I did away with( a swarm caught in late June) made a mess of the plastic FOUNDATION I had. They conected almost everything. I am a first year beekeeper but was raised around bees when I was young. I would like a final answer about attemps to keep them from draw comb between the frames. This product could have made it possible for my 2 hives started in May and that swarm to be 3 hives ready for winter. They did not get all the frames drawn which I think was partly due to me not being there from July 24 to sometime in early september due to back surgery. So a lack of keeping them fed is what I true blame. I am still feeding my 2 strong colonies I have left after taking my loss now to improve the other 2. So did the adding of the wood strips stop it or did it just slow it down? Did trimming the boxes or tabs put an end to the joining of the frames? I like the idea of using the drone brood as a trap for mites. I would not mind making a place for drone cells. I also like the idea that even without coating them in wax I would be atleast half way to small cell. Please be clear on your results as they will either make me have a go with this or not.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>So did the adding of the wood strips stop it or did it just slow it down?


I did not experiment with the wood strips.

>Did trimming the boxes or tabs put an end to the joining of the frames?


I did trim some boxes and some frames. I thought that I would trim them all, but I needed them faster than I could get them all trimmed. What I did find is that trimming down the boxes (mostly old boxes I bought that were worn) made it difficuld to add Bee Pro Patties and grease patties. Trimming the frames did make it easier to scrape the wax off and did make a bit less space for comb inbetween the tops and bottoms of the frames.

The problem was that when they went to propolizing, it got more difficuld to break the boxes apart. The wider spacing promoted comb building and that was easier to seperate than propolis. The wider spacing when used for brood was mostly drone brood in the brood area. In the honey supers it was honey and more of a mess. However I found old aluminum bakery pans that the supers fit in perfectly that held the dripping honey and solved that minor problem.

>I like the idea of using the drone brood as a trap for mites.


The wider spacing is a very inticing area for the queen to lay drone brood.

I don't plan to trim any more boxes, perhaps the frames just for ease of scraping, but it is not necessary. The system is good enough just as is out of the box.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I have had NO problems with combs between frames horizontally (as is usually the case when they mess up plastic FOUNDATION). The bees ALWAYS fill in the space between the comb above and below (vertically) with comb. I have found it to be a lot less problem than I anticipated. It's almost always drone brood and everytime I crack a brood chamber I get to see if there are any varroa. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/smile.gif

[John Seets]

Mike, you are correct about being able to do a quick check for Varroa when breaking the brood boxes apart. Been doing that for years.

Hillbilly: I found that by trimming the side tabs off the frames will eliminate propolizing at those points. I have not trimmed the bottom tabs.

Bill, I think I mentioned in a previous PC post "long ago" that to avoid a "sticky mess" when pulling honey supers, one only needs to crack to top honey super and move it over 3/4". Wait a little while which will give the bees time to clean up the cracked honey cells. Then when the super(s) are pulled - no mess. I usually go down the line of hives cracking the top super in the described manner. The go back to the first hive and can pull that top super with no dripping honey. Just a suggestion.

Thanx.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Bill, I think I mentioned in a previous PC post "long ago" that to avoid a "sticky mess" when pulling honey supers, one only needs to crack to top honey super and move it over 3/4". Wait a little while which will give the bees time to clean up the cracked honey cells.


Yes, you did. I haven't had a long line of supers to pull yet, usually I am in a hurry and don't plan well enough ahead. I am looking forward to doing it your way next year.

Thanks for the reminder, and for the super offers that you have made to members of Beesource. I'll be ordering soon, I have another forty boxes to fill with PC as soon as I can spare the money.

Bill

[dp]

Hillbilly, the adding of the wooden strips on the bottom didn't work. My thinking was that adding the wooden strips on the bottom of the pc would be within the bee space limits. Apparentlly it wasn't. We had a good goldenrod flow. I was also feeding the bees at the same time. The bees still joined the frames together. I still believe that this concept will work. Well, I've got between now and the honey flow to work something out.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

John:
Do you, or how do you, make walk away splits with PC?

I am wondering how the bees make their own queens with PC, and if quality of queens is effected.

Bill

[Michael Bush]

I took the queen out of my observation hive so I could watch them. They built about four queen cells that they actually capped (several more that they did not) Some were in the regular comb and some were on the bottom of the combs. They seem to have no trouble rasing a queen when I removed the old one.

The new queen has been a very good queen.



[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited November 24, 2003).]

[Michael Bush]

I should also mention that the observation hive has an excessive space. It's 2 1/4" wide (it should be 1 3/4") so there was lots of room for the queen cell on the side. Some observation hives I've seen (all of them from Brushy Mt.) are only 1 1/2". I put PermaComb in one of them and the bees did not have room to even work the comb let alone have room to raise a queen off the side.

[John Seets]

Bill,

With 9 frame config boxes, the bees seem to have sufficient room to pull how many queen cell peanuts whereever they want. With 10 frame config boxes, the tend to exclusively pull them on the bottom and very occasionally on the sides of the frames.

I've had little to complain about regarding the resulting queens. Don't do this often tho. I usually requeen with hygenic carney's purchased and then add to a split rather than let them raise their own.

Hope this answer's your question.

(Not familiar with the term "walk away".)

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>(Not familiar with the term "walk away".)

Letting them raise their own.

[TDSAMMONS]

My question is for long term users of permacomb. Have you noticed lower levels of Varroa and mite related problems with this product than what has been recorded for natural wax comb? I thought with no contamination problems this product might have a better track record than wax?

------------------
Travis S.

[Michael Bush]

>My question is for long term users of permacomb. Have you noticed lower levels of Varroa and mite related problems with this product than what has been recorded for natural wax comb? I thought with no contamination problems this product might have a better track record than wax?

I wax coat mine to get small cells (ends up 4.95mm equivelant) and I seem to have less Varroa with the small cells. I don't use any pesticides so I don't have any contamination problems.

I think when the Varroa first became a problem the assumption was that since they bees can't rework the PermaComb into Drone comb, and since the Varroa prefer drones, that it would reduce the number of Varroa. As it turns out, the bees build drone on the bottoms of the PermaComb between the boxes and the latest research says that bees will always raise the same number of drones regardless of how much drone comb there is in the hive. So I don't think it will matter that much.

On the other hand, PermaComb cells are about 5.1mm which is significanly smaller than 5.4mm and may help somewhat on the Varroa population because you will probably get a few hours sooner emergence. The Varroa lay another egg every 30 hours and shortening the emergence time by even a few hours can make a difference in the number of offspring. However, according to Dee Lusby it doesn't reach a level that controls the population until you reach 4.9mm. My wax coated is about 4.95mm and the emergence time is 24 hours sooner than 5.4mm worker brood.

[TDSAMMONS]

Thanks for the information Michael, We are currently regressing our hives to 4.9 by Dadant wax foundation plus no medication.
We seem to be getting more hives down each spring, but we can't afford to go with permacomb yet.
Keep us informed how it goes for you.
Thanks!

------------------
Travis S.

[Hillbillynursery]

I do not know if I will have the money to try some this spring. I have another thought about perma comb. Since it is 5.1mm has anyone used it as a first step of regression then added 4.9mm foundation(plastic or wax) to see if it has helped to get better drawn 4.9 combs?

[Michael Bush]

I suppose you could and I'm sure you will get a first regression out of it, but if you wax coat it you'll get pretty much full regression in one shot.

[Ken Wilson]

Beginner here. I don't have any hives as yet and will be starting in the spring. My question is: from following this topic I assume that if I wanted to start my hives with PC I should use two mediums as brood chambers (instead of two deeps I was going to use) and then add medium supers for honey, correct?
Then during flow, add queen excluder between brood & honey supers?
Wouldn't using mediums as brood chambers increase swarming?

[Michael Bush]

>from following this topic I assume that if I wanted to start my hives with PC I should use two mediums as brood chambers (instead of two deeps I was going to use) and then add medium supers for honey, correct?

No. Three mediums equals two deeps. I would plan on three mediums for overwintering (minimum) and four maximum depending on the strength of the hive and the severity of your winters.

>Then during flow, add queen excluder between brood & honey supers?

That is your choice. You can leave out the excluder and move any frames the queen lays in back down or you can put it on top of the third or fourth box and supers on top of that.

>Wouldn't using mediums as brood chambers increase swarming?

If you were using standard frames, I would say that the extra room between the frames would give more cluster space and probably help decrease swarming. There is research to support that bees overwinter better because the cluster can communicate between the boxes.

However, the discussion here is PermaComb and the bees will connect it between the boxes and it will be like one big comb with most of the advantages of a Dadant Deep frame instead. The main advantage is that the queen is not interupted when laying with a space between the combs that she has to traverse.

[mrbillz]

Greetings all,

Have been following the permacomb thread all along here and am looking forward to using it next year in the honey supers. Has anybody tried cutting off the bottom ears and coating the bottom w/ petroleum jelly to prevent / lessen the tendency to bridge the upper / lower frames?

Thanks BS

[Michael Bush]

I didn't try any petrolatum but I did cut off the ears on some and not on others. I like them better cut, just because I can scrape the bottom easier, but the tendancy to connect them isn't any different.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Has anybody tried cutting off the bottom ears and coating the bottom w/ petroleum jelly to prevent / lessen the tendency to bridge the upper / lower frames?


I thought about coating with FGMO but decided that it is better for them to cross comb the frames verticaly to create a bridge for the queen to cross over to the next frame.

I like the idea that the cross combing creates a solid comb effect, more like the natural long combs that we find in buildings and bee trees.

Another positive effect is that we need drone/stud comb in our hives and this helps provide an area for that.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

About a year ago when I first started following this board there was a discussion about using medium boxes and bad backs. MB posted a link to his trough hive and that planted a seed, but I wasn't sure if I would want a hive that was not mobil.

Another draw back in my mind was that since I use PC almost exclusivly, medium frames would not work very well in such a hive. That, and the ability for a medium trough to winter well doesn't seem very likely.

Well, I have been thinking, (I know...), that I would like to combine the ideas of a trough hive, unlimited broodnest, and deep Permacomb. Yes, deep PC.

I believe that I can trim the top bar tabs off, and either glue or plastiwield two together to make a 13" deep frame. Obviously I wouldn't ever want to lift a box of these, but one at a time would be no problem.

Gotta leave for work now, post more later.

[Michael Bush]

I am currently overwintering a three box long (48 3/4") medium depth hive with all PermaComb. So far they have faired well. We'll see how they come out in the Spring.

[Sungold]

I recently purchased some PC for the purpose of starting some new colonies using the PC in the brood chamber and as honey supers. I'm now wondering if I should use Pierco in the brood chamber and save the PC exclusively for honey supers. My thoughts are that the bees will have the early spring to draw out the Pierco(on syrup)and then I can put on the PC when the nectar starts. Any advantages (other than cost)for reserving the PC only for honey supers? cj

[BULLSEYE BILL]

If I was going to reserve the PC for one or the other, I would opt for the brood nest.

I have not had as good of luck as others have with the Pierco and really don't like it.

PC's durability makes it perfect for the brood nest, and it's smaller cell size should make for a healthier bee.

[Michael Bush]

The hive will take off quicker with the PermaComb in the brood nest. If I was choosing, I'd put it there. Drawn comb is an asset, but I always prefer to use drawn comb starting a new colony. It's a nice head start. The queen can start laying as soon as they feel organized, instead of after they have drawn enough comb.

[aufingers]

I agree with Michael. I used pierco for a brood with a Perma Comb on top. The bees went right up to the Perma Comb and only used part of the Pierco. Some of the Pierco was drawn away from the plastic. I will go all Perma Comb this Spring.
Winter Well
Earl White

[db_land]

In the small-cell discussion there are several observations that bees naturally draw comb in different sizes depending on their needs. E.g. brood cells are 40% small-size, 60% large-size and honey storage cells are extra large. Does using fixed size PC in the brood chamber work against this nature and possibly result in less brood or less of the right sized brood? Seems to me naturally drawn comb (like in a TBH) would work best in the brood chamber.

[Michael Bush]

>In the small-cell discussion there are several observations that bees naturally draw comb in different sizes depending on their needs. E.g. brood cells are 40% small-size, 60% large-size and honey storage cells are extra large. Does using fixed size PC in the brood chamber work against this nature and possibly result in less brood or less of the right sized brood?

No more so than using foundation which is also all the same size.

>Seems to me naturally drawn comb (like in a TBH) would work best in the brood chamber.

If you want small cell, wax dipped PermaComb will give you 4.95mm cells with NO regression needed. Just put the bees on it and they go to town. They seem to like it fine. The queen seems to prefer it even when other comb is available.

I'm a big proponent of natural cells but if you're going to do all natural cells you need to make plain starter strips or foundationless frames and stop using foundation.

I have several hives that are all natural cells. I also have a lot of hives that are all wax dipped PermaComb. The wax dipped PermaComb hives have flourished even more than the natural drawn comb. Mostly, I think, because they didn't have to draw any comb. But the queen was certainly laying beautifully in the PermaComb.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

As I mentioned in the above post of 12-17-03 that I thought a good project would be to make a trough hive, perhaps horizonal is a better name as MB uses in another thread.

I had been reading about how the bees like a more vertical brood nest and after working with the PC this year, the thought that wielding two PC frames together to make one extra deep might work well for me.

The concept of not having to lift any more than one or two mediums of honey supers to get access to the entire brood nest is very appealing to me, bad back and all...

The hive I am designing will be two deeps side by side in length - 32 1/2" x 20" x 13" deep. The entire bottom will be screened with another 1" below that a sliding tray for inspections and closure for the winter. This deminsion will allow me to set two standard mediums above standard excluders and use migratory covers.

I know I want to use top entrances, but have not yet decided as to have holes drilled along the length of the hive or just at one end.

Most of my colonys are of three medium broods, this will allow me four and I will not have to split the boxes apart to inspect. The 19 frames being 11 3/4" deep will give me more space than I would have if I just went with four regular mediums.

I will keep you informed as how well the frames go together. I am hoping that gorilla glue will hold them, but I might have to get them plastiwielded.

[Michael Bush]

I built the three box long and left it medium and it has done well without having to glue anything. Another thought is they will build comb on the bottom anyway. Why not just make a deep (or Dadant deep) box and put the permacomb in and let them add on.

Also, I found heating them that they melt rather nicely and stick together well if they do. You may want to try some method of melting to actually weld them together.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>Why not just make a deep (or Dadant deep) box and put the permacomb in and let them add on.


Three reasons that come to mind:
One , Murphy's Law, and my luck would be that they would attach it to the sides and or bottom, and being extra deep, difficult to reach to loosen. I would probably tear it off even being very careful, knowing me.

It is also very likely that when it gets hot outside that it could detatch while doing frame inspections. A chunk that size full gets pretty heavy.

And I want cell uniformity. They will make stud sells where and when they want to anyway, I don't want to encourage that by providing extra room.

I know what the pundts of natural cell are thinking, I just don't want the problems listed above. I may try a natural cell hive in the future, but I would want to have the cells supported all around the frame much like the foundationless frames MB linked to in another post.

[Sungold]

Bullseye Bill,

I've been following your posts of modifying PC. Just thought that I would mention that I have modified some myself. I cut the bottoms off (the tabs and the just enough of the bottom to square off the frame). Then I glued a 3/8" strip of polypro back on, now the frame is the standard depth of a medium frame. My reason for mentioning this is the gluing method. Ploy pro is a low energy resin. It is difficut to bond polypro to ploypro (or it use to be). 3M has a product called Scotch-Weld DP-8005. It bonds low energy plastics to many materials including themselves. It isn't cheap, but it works well and it is simple to use. I purchased it from Hillas Packaging (Ft. Worth Tx.) Do a web search on Scotch Weld DP-8005 you'll get a good number of hit to read more about it. Just a suggestion. cj

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Thanks, CJ, I'll check that out.

[dp]

Does anybody know if John is going to have a spring sale on PC? I hate to place an order and miss out on a good deal.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

You need to e-mail him. He is very prompt on responses. Remember that ONLY Beesource members get discounts, when and how often?, you need to check with him, but be sure to tell him about Beesource.

[John Seets]

dp,

Sale time probably won't be til next fall when sales are slow. Right now, many beekeepers are gearing up for spring and sales are brisk.

reply to 12/02/03 to Travis about mites and PC. (and requested by Bill)

I can't say definitively whether using PC will decrease the propagation of varroa, or positively reduce the rate at which mites become resistant to various miticides.

Without a study being done, there is no positive proof. However, plastic WILL NOT absorb the chemicals as wax comb does. Even after pulling the strips out of the hives, the mites are still exposed to low levels of the miticide in the wax which DOES cause natural selection of Varroa resistant to that chemical. With the plastic, it can be construed that the mites are not as inclined to develope resistance or not as quickly. Again, this is just conjecture.

I have needed to treat when hearing others have not and have not needed to treat when others did. There is not enough reliable data in my area to formulate a conclusion.

Thanx.

[John Seets]

I mentioned this is another thread and thought I would reiterate it here:

PermaComb is ideal for beekeepers who only have a few hives where an extractor would not be warranted. Simply scratch the cappings and up-end the frame(s) over a container in a warm/hot environment - say using a hairdryer in an enclosed space. Do this to all the frames at nite and by morning, all the honey will have run out into the container. I wouldn't try this with wax comb, tho.

[wayacoyote]

John,
Why not do it with wax combs? I have done it with deeps and mediums and have not had any problems. Was I just lucky or something? I have a plastic storage box with lid. I can suspend 10 frames in it via 2 rods run through the sides of the box and through the lower corners of the frames. As you stated, by morning, there will be a lot of honey. I was able to put off buying an extractor by this method, and as I said, I didn't notice any problems.
wayacoyote

[This message has been edited by wayacoyote (edited February 17, 2004).]

[Michael Bush]

>Why not do it with wax combs? I have done it with deeps and mediums and have not had any problems. Was I just lucky or something?

I didn't have the patience for it. The honey doesn't run out very quickly and the last bit never seems to run out. I think that's why John was suggesting the hair dryer, which I'm pretty sure will melt the wax combs.

I just crushed them (the combs not the PermaComb) and strained them. Lots of nice white wax and the freshest honey short of right out of the comb (which it almost is). I think the uncapping knife adds a lot of burned honey flavor.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited February 18, 2004).]

[John Seets]

Wayacoyote;

Like Mike said.

Thanx.

[wayacoyote]

Gotcha, I missed the part with the hair dryer... I don't use one. Just let the honey drip, and yes, it takes a Very Long time.
Thanks

[Rod350]

Is a deep plastic comb available yet?
Rod

[Michael Bush]

>Is a deep plastic comb available yet?
Rod

That's what PermaComb is. It's fully drawn plastic comb. The bees just use it and cap it. The cell walls are there already.

[Oxankle]

Rod;
I believe someone here said a few days ago that it only came in mediums and there were no plans to come out with deeps due to the high cost of injection moulds.
Ox

[Michael Bush]

>>Is a deep plastic comb available yet?
Rod
>That's what PermaComb is. It's fully drawn plastic comb. The bees just use it and cap it. The cell walls are there already.

Sorry. Brain short circuted. I was thinking of deep cells as opposed to comb for deep boxes. Why? I don't know.

It only comes in mediums.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

I bet if there were such a thing as deep PC a box of it full of honey would take a crane to lift.

I just finished welding nineteen double mediums for a trough hive I buildt. They look really good, but I am glad I won't have to lift them. Of course that is the whole idea.

I took thirty eight frames and trimmed the bottom and side tabs off all of them, (only because I like to scrape things clean periodically). On nineteen of them I also trimmed off the end bars. I made a frame board to clamp two frames into and welded two together with a special plastic welding rod. Each frame is now twelve inches deep.


The hive box holds nineteen frames at nine frame spacing, and is exactly long enough to set two supers above lengthwise. It will use a follower board as the colony grows and has both lower and upper intrances.

It also has a screened bottom with a slide out tray/bottom, and a slatted rack that is aligned with the frames. I will have to use queen excluders to keep the queen moving horizonily. That is ok since I will be using upper entrances.

The capacity of the brood box is the same as four mediums or three deeps. That is going to be a huge colony to sort through. The up side is I will not have to ever move any boxes other than the honey supers.

[Rod350]

>>Is a deep plastic comb available yet?
Rod
>>That's what PermaComb is. It's fully drawn plastic comb. The bees just use it and cap it. The cell walls are there already.

>Sorry. Brain short circuted. I was thinking of deep cells as opposed to comb for deep boxes. Why? I don't know.

It only comes in mediums.

No need to apologize.
I don't use any medium supers.
If the manufacturer only made deeps then you could cut them down to the size you need. But I am not trying to tell anyone their buisness.
I can wait until someone else gets the idea.
Rod

[Michael Bush]

>I can wait until someone else gets the idea.

Well I seem to remember the first Ad I saw for it in the late 1970's and no one else is making it yet.

[Oxankle]

Michael;

The chinese have not yet figured out that beekeepers would like to have it. Sit tight. They'll catch on.

If the makers go to a sintering shop and have some individual cell plugs cast, then set them up in a form like type the mould can be made pretty cheaply. The Chinese will have the stuff out in a year if they find out there is a market for it. You have to remember too that after so many years the patent has run out. If the Chinese make deeps they will make shallows and mediums too.

There's the real hitch. If it is so good, why have not the american beekeepers switched over to it en masse? I'm giving it a whirl, and looking forward to success but I am realistic about it too.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>The chinese have not yet figured out that beekeepers would like to have it. Sit tight. They'll catch on.

It is still a very well kept secret.


>If the makers go to a sintering shop and have some individual cell plugs cast, then set them up in a form like type the mould can be made pretty cheaply.


I have wondered if the cells were made round, would that reduce the space for mites? The bees certainly don't need flat sides in the cell unless the larva uses the flat sides for leverage to turn.

>There's the real hitch. If it is so good, why have not the american beekeepers switched over to it en masse?

Three reasons;

Price of honey, only recient prices have made it more appealing for hobbyiests.

Beekeepers are cheap, just read these forums to see that.

Extraction, people couldn't get the shallow capped honey out. Now we have the Hackler honey punch, no problem.


>I'm giving it a whirl, and looking forward to success but I am realistic about it too.

This will be my second year useing it. I feel like it has already paid for itself in just the facts that I didn't have to assemble it and no misdrawn comb. OOpps! kate fror work! Gotta go...

[Michael Bush]

I know one of the OTHER reasons (besides cost and I was in deeps and didn't want to convert) that I didn't buy it 30 years ago is that I didn't know what to make of all the spacing inconsistencies. I didn't like that it would get burred between the boxes. Now that I've used it I find all these to be minor compared to the advantages, but it's hard to get someone to see that until they try it.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I didn't know what to make of all the spacing inconsistencies. I didn't like that it would get burred between the boxes.

The more I consider the cell building inbetween the frames, the more I like what is happening. At first I thought that it was a real pain to have to break the boxes apart. Now, I can appreciate that it allows the queen to freely move up AND down the comb like the continious comb in a natural hive.

[Michael Bush]

Basically I've come to the same conclusion. It appears at first to be a disadvantage, but in reality it's not. Also there are more cells because of they run all the way to the top and bottom (the real reason for the burr). Also the bees need some drone somewhere and I get an idea of varroa infestation everytime I open the brood chamber.

[Sungold]

Sounds a bit messy. Why not modify the PC to be the correct size and then use a frame or two of drone foundation. Wouldn't this would allow you to incorporate drone trapping into your practice?

[Michael Bush]

Part of the reason the bees connect it isn't just the spacing, it's the fact that the cells run all the way to to top and bottom. I have DE hives and they have very thin top and bottom bars and the bees do the same thing with them even though they ARE the correct spacing.

But now that I'm used to the idea, I'm like Bill, I think I like it.

Somethings just change how you work a bit and they turn out to be better than expected.

[Sungold]

Mike,
I read up above where Bill mentioned that he is using 9 frames in the brood chamber. Is that the number that you use in the brood chamber? When I put 9 frames of PC in the super it seems like there is a lot (like way lots) of room between frames.

[Michael Bush]

I don't like 9 frames in the brood chamber of PermaComb or regular frames. In fact, I'd like 11 frames and have made a spacer comb for this, but haven't had the chance to try it. Small cell bees do well on 1 1/4" spacing where a standard 10 frame is 1 3/8" spacing and 9 frame is about 1 1/2" spacing.

First I don't want to give up a frame of brood. Second I don't like the uneven faces of the brood combs when there are 9.

So far all of mine are 10 frames.

[Oxankle]

Fellows,
I would never use 9 frames in a ten frame box for brood. However, I try never to put more than 9 frames in a honey super. The bees draw the comb out to the proper bee spacing and uncapping is a breeze. You get just as much honey in 9 frames as in ten but with much more convenience for yourself.

I think this might be important, not just convenient, using permacomb. If the bees draw out the comb that little bit extra the permacomb will be a snap to uncap.

In addition, when you give a crowded hive a super of nine frames you give them a bit more air and space, lessening congestion.

I try never to give a colony a ten frame super unless it is destined to become part of the brood nest.
Ox

[Michael Bush]

My thoughts exactly on both counts. 10 frames for brood nine for supers, especially with PermaComb you need 9 in the supers.

[John Seets]

Personally, I have come to prefer the nine and nine. A couple reasons:

1) No form/fit problems when moving frames between honey and brood.
a) You might want to do this to encourage the bees to traverse the excluder earlier assuming you use them.
b) Or you might want to give one or more frames of honey to a split or nuc.

2) Nine in BROOD helps relieve congestion and at the same time provides the queen more freedom of movement over the combs effectively spreading her "footprint" pheromone. Lack of proper distibution of this pheromone and congestion in the brood chamber are 2 primary reasons for the initiaion of swarm behavior by the colony (building swarm cells, cessation of queen feeding and egg laying).

There's probably more reasons. Just can't think of them now.

Thanx.

[Oxankle]

John:
Are you telling us that the bees draw the brood comb out longer, or that they simply draw the pollen and honey out around brood of the normal depth?

I can see the advantage of being able to slip in some honey, but so far I have been able to get it from brood chambers. The effect on swarm behavior I don't know about. I'd have to rely on your experience for that.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Ox, what I got out of that is that since the upper and lower frames line up in the brood and supers, the bees accept the supers better and they can travel between them easier.

And there is less congestion in the brood which makes for easier travel for both the foragers and the queen. That allows for the queen phermone to be distributed easier and further about the frames.

I think that less congestion is the real benefit. The bees are not waiting around for another to get out of the way so they can get to work.

[Sungold]

This is interesting; congestion is caused by?

1. Not enough room (between the frames) within the brood chamber, or

2. Not enough empty cells for the queen to lay in?

3.Some combination of 1 & 2?

[Oxankle]

Bullseye:

I can follow all that. What I wondered about was whether the bees drew out the frames in the 9-frame brood area. My vision of this is a lot of normal depth brood with the pollen and honey cells around them drawn much deeper like those in 9 frame supers.

If this is the case, what happens when the queen wants an empty honey cell to lay in?
Do the bees then tear down the cell to brood depth, or does the queen go on and lay in the deep cell?

Ox

[John Seets]

Ox;

Please go to the following link to see a honey-stuffed PermaComb super in a 9 frame configuration.
http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

As has been discussed, this is a good pictorial of how the bees draw out the comb past the plastic "surface".

Now, if you put one of these frames in a brood chamber spaced for 10, fit problems (obviously). Spaced for 9 - OK. The bees eventually use the honey in the frame and the workers will then want to prepare the center area of the comb by, as you surmised, tearing down the cells to the "proper" brood cell depth where the brood cell cappings would be at just about the "surface" of the plastic.

The congestion, footprint phermone distribution and effects on swarming tendencies are all currently documented in research and various bee books and writings.

Sungold. I think "3", like you said.

Oh yes, another benefit of the 9 frame in both brood and HS is the fact the during the hot months, ventilation by natural convection is enhanced and reduces the need for bees to "assign" workers to gather water to help cool the hive not to mention the continigent required to "fan" to this end.

Also, the greater airflow helps evaporate the water out of the honey more quickly allowing the bees to cap the honey sooner. Same principle as that "hive-cool" top of the hive fan unit that is advertised in Bee Culture.

Thanx.

[Oxankle]

John:

Has anyone done any studies on wintering in 9-frame configuration? Blows my mind. If 9-frame brood frames have that positive effect, why have the bees not adopted it?

There has to be some downside--Nature does not favor long-term mistakes.

Thanks for the input. It is certainly not hard to adapt to the practice, and 9-frame configurations are easier on the beekeeper. I'm going to chew on this for a bit and perhaps try it on a hive or two.
Ox

[John Seets]

Hi, Ox;

You said "...why have the bees not adopted it?"

Not sure what this means. Please clarify. Are you saying that the bees (with no frames or foundation) will naturally build 10 "rows" of comb in a covered standard Langstroth box?

In any case, offhand, I do not recall reading specifically any studies done on overwintering 10 vs 9 frame brood boxes. However, I can say that I've done my own study every year and this is what works best for me after having initially started with 10 brood / 10 HS back in '68.

Thanx.

[Oxankle]

John:
By "why have not the bees adopted it" I was referring to the conventional teaching that our European bees build combs 1 & 3/8 inches apart, the African bee about a quarter inch less.

On reflection, we and the bees have different goals. They manage their hives for survival and reproduction, we manage for honey, wax and increase. We alter the bees behavior to suit our own purposes. They respond to their instincts as best they can and sometimes swarm despite our efforts to keep them.

Most of what the bees do we know only from observation and deduction. Our beekeeping is largely based on experiments that worked. I have no idea why 9 frame brood nests work for you, but if they do, they do. The obvious advantages of a ten percent reduction in frames to handle, less propolizing, and the better swarm control are powerful incentives to try the system.

I'd like to know if there are any other long-term commercial beekeepers who have tried 9-frame brood nests. You may be on to something here.
Ox

[BULLSEYE BILL]

>I'd like to know if there are any other long-term commercial beekeepers who have tried 9-frame brood nests.

I came across four abandoned hives that had a big time opperators name branded on them that were set up with nine frame deep broods. To this day I can not find the person who was supposed to be taking care of them. I do not know for sure if it was the way the comercial beekeepaer runs his opperation or if it is equipment that he sold off and the next person did it that way.

I can only say that I found someone else that does it that way too. After at least two years of neglect that I know of, and it looks like more, they are still thriving.

[Michael Bush]

The concept of spacing the brood nest out more has been around since Dadant came up with it (or maybe someone before him). The theory was that the brood nest would be less crowded and that would lead to less swarming. I have not observed any difference other than a loss of one frame of brood. It is not a new idea by any means and is, although I don't think the "norm", a popular enough idea that there are always a lot of people doing it. It "works" in the sense that I don't see a lot of difference in how well the bees do or whether they swarm, so it's not like it's a "bad" idea with a LOT of down sides.

But the bees don't build brood combs that far apart. As you say, perhaps we have different goals, but my guess is a compact brood nest is easier to keep warm and it definitely has another frame of brood in it.

[John Seets]

Thanx, Ox, Bill and Mike;

I agree, the bees are having to adapt to our changes to suit our ends. Like Ox says, if we get too far out of the envelope the bees will let us know.

I would think the "scientific" way to find out would be to start a number of hives on 9 and a number on ten and see what happens while keeping as many of the other variables as similar as possible (i.e. same number of pounds, race, supplier, location, etc.). Would be interesting. I'll look thru my various zillion bee books that are lying around to see if I can find something.

Mike, not sure I necessarily agree with more frames equating to a more compact nest being more easily warmed. I could possibly make a case for better warming with more bee-to-bee contact with the frames spaced futher apart rather than the cluster being "broken up more" with more frames "through" the cluster. Of course, this is just hypothesizing.

Thanx.

[Gregg]

I run 9 frames in all my brood chambers (actually in the deep only 8 frames and a feeder). All the commercial beekeepers do this that I know, and have been doing it this way for years.

------------------
Gregg Stewart

[Oxankle]

Well, Now:

That tells us a lot. If commercial men are doing this on a large scale you had better believe that they have found it to be to the beekeeper's advantage.
Ox

[JohnBeeMan]

Glad I found this discussion on 9 frame brood boxes. I was setting up new brood boxes this past weekend and thought about doing the 9 frames to match the honey super layout. But I chickened out because I was afraid of the risk involved in the extra space in the brood chamber. I also wonder how the extra space effects the temperture control for the overwintering cluster. I currently have 3 hives with double deeps that I plan to split this spring (2 new queens - and 1 to raise its own) and I have 2 packages ordered (all Russian). This hobby is quickly getting out of hand (I cannot drink all the mead from that much honey). I am also going to start the FGMO/Thymol treatment methods.

[BULLSEYE BILL]

JBM
Remember you should not start bare foundation on nine frame spacing, it must be drawn first in ten frame spacing or they will make a mess out of it. Unless it's Permacomb, of course.

My bees wintered fine on nine frame spacing.

[ikeepbees]

I started keeping bees 5 or 6 years ago. First couple of years I used 10 frames in the brood nest, then switched to 9 in everything because, for me, it was easier to manipulate frames. I haven't been able to detect any disadvantages other than the two mentioned by MB: less cells per box and some uneven combs.

Bullseye said:

"JBM
Remember you should not start bare foundation on nine frame spacing, it must be drawn first in ten frame spacing or they will make a mess out of it. Unless it's Permacomb, of course.
My bees wintered fine on nine frame spacing."

I used to start boxes with 10 frames of foundation, but for the last two years have installed boxes with 9 frames of foundation with no noticeable increase in messed up combs.



------------------
Rob Koss

[John Seets]

Another advantage of the 9 frame brood config is that there is less chance of rolling the queen when pulling a frame than with the 10 frame config.

And like Bill said, NO "messed up frames" with the PermaComb. The bess CANNOT alter its shape as is the case with wax comb drawn from foundation.

Thanx.

[Barry]

And with that said, this thread is officially closed. The problem with threads that get this long is the topic of discussion tends to move around and the Topic name no longer applies. In this case, Permacomb is such a generic topic that it becomes very difficult for anyone to find the information they may be after in 15 pages worth of messages. I think it's more user friendly to keep the topics shorter with topic names that are more descriptive.

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited March 22, 2004).]

[Barry]

Reopened, just for Bill. ;)

[BULLSEYE BILL]

Reopened, just for Bill. ;)

And I didn't even notice! Must have been a birthday present I didn't know I got. :rolleyes:

I heard that you could not order PC so I e-mailed John and got this response;



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Bill Vinduska [mailto:@cox.net]
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 2:44 AM
To: Seets, John F.
Subject: PermaComb


Hey, John.
They are saying on BS that you are not selling PC anymore, what's up? Should I be worried that I can not get any more?
Bill

Bogus info. However, it is currently only available in 1000 comb lots @3.15/ea + ship. Shipping it from LA to MD and then reshipping it from here is no longer cost effective due to increases in manufacturing and shipping costs. I recommend to all those who contact me that they put together a joint order with other beekeepers in their area. Until the owner of the mold allows me to move it to here, this will have to bee the policy. Feel free to disseminate this info.
Thanx.
John



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grant, If you want to split an order I am up for it.