thymol

[Dave]

Thymol is toxic. The MERCK INDEX (A chemical reference book in any technical library)reports an LD-50 of 1.8 grams per kilogram for mice. That means that the Lethal Dose to kill 50 percent of the mice is 1.8 grams of thymol for 1000 grams of mice. This is not very much. The stuff can be dangerous. I imagine much more than 50 percent got pretty sick, and mice are mammals like us, not insects. Take care when preparing the emulsions.
And using thymol puts us back in the Apistan loop. Soon the mites will evolve a resistance to it, and we must avoid contaminating the honey and wax.
Using thymol in the fogger is not a good idea. It exposes, even slightly, the bee keeper and the neighborhood to a toxic mist. It's impossible to deliver an accurate dose and contaminates the fogger. The thymol may decompose in the hot fogger barrel. Not to mention legal problems. For example, if I live in your neighborhood and my children develop a peculiar rash or headaches or something, and I find out what you're using, you'll be explaining it to the judge!
The beauty of FGMO is that it's harmless, FOOD grade after all, and the mites can't evolve a resistance to not breathing!


------------------
Dave

[Branman]

Interesting...

I don't know thymol from koolaid, but one thing I've noticed is that if something is "natural" some people assume it is okay to throw in a hive or swallow in a pill. There are alot of "natural" things I wouldn't touch with 10 foot pole. Nicotene is in tobacco, a natural organic substance, and a drop will kill you.

[This message has been edited by Branman (edited October 20, 2003).]

[skruzich]

Branman You are quite correct! I see all the time people who have no clue as to what they are doing to their bodies by taking megadoses of vitamines and suppliments from wallyworld, even though what they are taking is adulterated product.
I tell folks all the time when they want me to recommend something, its a MEDICINE! It has effects and affects people in different ways. But it is much better than some of the factory produced compounds.
I think though that where we can benefit from natural herbs and such, I have thought about it and read about it and I kill mites with olive oil. FGMO is probably just as effective. But where do the mites come from?????? Eggs. I use yellowdock to kill mite eggs on my pets ears. Its not harmful to us or pets. Now the experiment would be to see if it is toxic or will kill bees. If not, then we have another source that we can use to kill mite eggs. It would be easy to use the fogger to mist the hive.
steve

[Axtmann]

Skruzich

You can kill the Varroa behind the ears from your bees but first you should read the article about the Varroa on the following page!!! http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/interest.htm

You also can use olive oil I’m sure it kills mites, that oil kills everything. I have never seen an oil sardine alive.


Your wife probably never used thyme as spices?

Body-Lotion Thymol is an ingredient in night cream for women.
It’s in skin cleaner for even babies.
Cool Mint Listerine PocketPaks® Strips have Thymol.
Thymol product helps you when you have a cold and bronchitis.

People medicine thymol:
cramp-solving and disinfecting effect, cramp-well-behaved cough, acute bronchitis, asthmatic accumulations, intestine complaints, pneumonia, abdomen cramps, kidney of blister cramps, blind intestine provoking, fever, rheumatism

There is much more but you should search the internet

[Barry]

Hi Axtmann -

Interesting list of products you give us, all containing thymol. Now, for this to have any relevance to this discussion, please provide us with the amount of thymol found in each of these products.

Thanks.

- Barry

[Axtmann]

First you should know I’m not a promoter for any Thymol product. I give you an idea how much Thymol crystals a human has to eat before getting sick or even died.

This is from Dave: >>>>
Thymol is toxic. The MERCK INDEX (A chemical reference book in any technical library)reports an LD-50 of 1.8 grams per kilogram for mice. That means that the Lethal Dose to kill 50 percent of the mice is 1.8 grams of thymol for 1000 grams of mice. This is not very much. The stuff can be dangerous.<<<<

Hi is not wrong but in proportion to a human with an average weight of 80kg /160lb must eat 144 grams Thymol at once, to reach the dose who kills 50 percent.
With an evaporation of Thymol in a bee colony we are using a few grams in a timeframe of 5 to 8 weeks.
Using Thymol in a fogger in my opinion is stupid and waist of money; bees would blow the fog out of the hive even before the beekeeper left the yard.

[Dave]

Peace.

It was never my intention to start a thymol controversy or subvert the good Dr. R's FGMO research. I think he has done us all a great service in sharing his wisdom, and I'm personally using his mineral oil method. I merely thought there were implications with adding thymol to the system.

For the record, the LD-50 for nicotine is 60 milligrams (0.060 grams) per kilogram. Thirty times worse than thymol. For caffieine, the LD-50 is 200 milligrams (0.200 grams). Nine times worse than thymol. Many folks take these compounds routinely, but not in the pure form, and I expect most weigh much more than one kilogram. I do! Thyme is the ground leaves and flowers of the plant from which thymol is extracted.

I think we should be aware of the properties of thymol and be careful handling it. And, it seem to me, it's impractical and (marginally) dangerous to use it through the fogger.

That's all. Just my opinion.

Dave

[Dr. Pedro Rodriguez]

Hello folks.
I have refrained from aaking statements about thymol beyond those tgat I have already posted in this forum for specific reasons: mainly because I have not yet compiled all the data collected during this year's study period. Let me assure all the readers of this column that my tests have been performed with strict protocolary guidance. There is nothing "stupid" in the performance of scientific research especially when the results obtained are outstanding. Talk, especially in a forum like this is cheap. Research, especially when performed with personal funds is quite expensive. I think that in the interest of the benefits that might be derived from the use of this substance, that it behooves those who use this column to express their opinion, should at least wait until the trials are published to voice their opinion. One should keep in mind that there are many readers who read this column who may not understand much about beekeeping and honey bee parasites and that by venting one's opinion without facts, one may be doing harm to our common subject, beekeeping. Food for thought, I think.
Best regards, and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez

[Axtmann]

Well as far as I understand FGMO is a treatment without any chemicals or toxic substances.
That’s the main issue why some beekeeper decided to go for it even with the disadvantage to fogging the colonies every week or two. To prepare and use of the cords is one more disadvantage.

And now the developer comes, after so many years of teaching beekeepers how to handle the fogger with the right oil to get the success they are waiting for, with a statement that he is using and testing Thymol as a new ingredient in his procedure.

Here a few posts from Dr. R. but there are lots more here and on other forums.

>>>posted May 04, 2002 Also, I do not know if adding menthol to the Burgess propane fogger would affect the fogger and render it unusable. Why would you want to risk ruining a good piece of equipment when FGMO alone will do the job for you? Just wondering.
Best regards.
Dr. Rodriguez<<<<

Why Thymol when FGMO alone will do the job for you?

>>>posted August 11, 2002 If I were to buy FGMO I would make sure that it is odor/taste free. Some of the mineral oil sold at drugstore have perfume added to it. This kind of oil is definitely not acceptable for use in hives because the perfume in it would transfer to the wax and hence to the honey.<<<

That’s what happens with Thymol it’s smell transfer to wax and honey very fast!

>>>posted November 03, 2002 My original thought was FGMO and since I have obtained such wonderful results with it, I have not seen the need for anything else but to try to improve the technique.<<<

I think even his own results wasn’t such wonderful otherwise he would not go for Thymol.
As I said before Thymol kills mites without any byproducts like cord or FGMO. http://www.beesource.com/ubb/wink.gif

Axtmann

[Dr. Pedro Rodriguez]

Goodentag herr Axtmann.
Since I am the moderator of the FGMO forum to which you have chosen to intrude with constant personal rebutals about my posts on this forum, I feel compelled to infrom you that I welcome your comments, ill intended as they might be, because they contribute to the dynamics of the forum. Regardless of your misguided antagonism to FGMO, wantyou to know that your comments are accepted gracxefully for the following reasons:
In this great country of ours, called the United States of America, we celebrate a religious holiday called Thanksgiving in honor of our original settlers who migrated to America in search of Freedom. Thanks to them and other patriots, we enjoy many privileges, one of them being freedom of speech, hence your privilege to contribute to the beesource.com forum and FGMO, originally organized to speak about food grade mineral oil. Another of our great privileges in the United States of America is freedom of cult (religion to you,sir). As part of that great privilege, we celebrate a feast called Thanksgiving, to thank God for our blessings and to pray for blessings for all the people of the world. Therefor, this Thanksgiving day I promise that I will pray for enlightnement of all mandind, you and your family included. May the Lord guide your ways and grant you peace.
God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez

[Branman]

I know Dr. Rodriguez has received alot of praise from posters and let me be added to that list. We can all use as much help against these pests as we can get. That said, I have a few questions I wanted to ask with the utmost respect.

With regards to thymol I am a bit puzzled. Aren't there easier ways to apply thymol to a hive like Apilife Var, etc? I'm assuming the FGMO research was made to add another weapon to the arsenal against varroa that was becoming more and more resistant to chemical treatments. However, the fact that it is nonchemical to me seems to be the biggest factor in FGMO's popularity. Won't adding thymol negate the benefit of using a fogger as another nonchemical, IPM means of keeping varroa levels in check?

If we are not worried about chemicals, we may decide to try and use thymol. What seems to be missing from the research is the effects of thymol withOUT FGMO. Unless the FGMO in this case is merely an inert ingredient to allow proper dilution of the thymol, there is no "control" thymol hive. Perhaps when using thymol, there is no added benefit by fogging the hive or even mixing the thymol with FMGO.

Again, no disrespect is intended in this post; I am a brand spanking new beekeeper with no experience save 4 or 5 months of reading this forum. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can before this spring and decide what treatments to use, be they chemical or not.

Thanks in advance

Brandon

[This message has been edited by Branman (edited November 04, 2003).]

[Alex Cantacuzene]

Hello all,
Thanks for all the good conversations and research on the subject of bees in general, and the fight against Varroa mites in particular. I am a raw beginner with bees and am using FGMO as for me it is the simplest and safest. Others methods are being tried and I am thankful to all who are doing it. After all, what we are dealing with is nothing that can be controlled with a switch, it will remain elusive. What I am trying to say is: "Let us vigorously support all those who are working for our mutual benefit!" We will ultimately benefit, be it as a hobbyist or a commercial operator. Our perspectives in our operations are so varied that we may not always see another's point of view. Enjoy!

[Michael Bush]

Maybe I'm not clear on what other's think is convienient. Being able to fog with FGMO for mites anytime of the year without worrying about contamination, without opening a hive is pretty convienient.

Opening a hive to put in Apitstan, or ApiLife or Oxalic acid strips or menthol towelss or even FGMO cords seems pretty inconvienient to me. And then opening again to remove it is even more work.

I'm not saying you should or shouldn't open the hive to do those other things, but fogging is a very convienient application method for anything.

[WineMan]

In my mind, its hard to say that adding any substance whether it is apistan, formic, fgmo or thymol to the hive is a good thing. They sure dont naturally occur there at least in the form or quantity that we use to treat bees. However, in comparison, thymol and fgmo both seem to be safer choices than coumaphos or fluvalinate for the bees/consumer and safer for me to apply than acids. Of course there are positives and negatives to both fgmo and thymol but Im willing to keep trying them as possible alternatives to the traditional chemicals.

In the past I wasnt a big believer in fgmo. I tried it as a snap shot treatment hoping for results like apistan but didnt get them. I was disappointed and thought it seemed like a pain to have to carry that fogger around all the time in the summer to get it to maybe work. However, my friend used the fogger all year and convinced me to start again late in this summer. After using it often Ive decided its really not that much of a hassle. Granted its not perfectly convenient but it now seems quite manageable. It surely is less of a hassle than opening hives and sticking in strips and then coming back and pulling them out.

Watching the sticky boards on my friends and my colonies has been very interesting....except for counting mites and keeping a spreadsheet that goes for pages and pages!!!! You begin to see all sorts of patterns and can make comparisons between colonies that were fogged over the course of the summer, those fogged for just a couple of months, those treated with traditional chemicals and those that are untreated.
Now Im starting to understand why the treatment doesnt work as a one time deal and what the possibilities might be for using it on a continual basis particularly if thymol can be integrated.

[Michael Bush]

My concern about the thymol mostly is the smell (and taste). You can't use it when the supers are on unless you want listerine flavored honey. And then how do the bees like it? Apparently they don't.

One of the nicest things about FGMO is you can use it anytime (and all the time).

[Branman]

MB, I agree completely. From what I've read on this forum and what I've heard from others, I decided that FGMO was definately the way to go. I'm not sure if the convenience comment was regarding my post or not, but I think FGMO is incredibly convenient and seems to be successful for others. After 2 months, I don't seem to have any varroa, but I'm sure thats not enough time to be statistically significant.

After posting, I read other Dr. Rodriguez posts and saw some answers already - ie, looking for synergies between thymol and FGMO as a 1 2 punch. I personally was drawn to using FGMO because I wanted to go as nonchemical as possible, the ease was just a bonus.

[WineMan]

Thymol's great positive is that it readily kills mites. The Europeans have been well aware of that for a long time. Unfortunately as M.B. comments the downside is the smell/contamination aspect.

FGMO's great positive is the food safe concept. However, its downside is that it lacks "high" mite knockdown power.

It would be nice to get an increased mite kill from fogging without an overpowering odor. Hopefully that is what we are going to see when Dr. R. publishes his next progress.

[Michael Bush]

I'm certainly not against people trying the thymol. I don't think I will, but I would prefer it to Apistan. At least if the honey is "contaminated" it won't be poison and you can tell by the taste and the smell. But it greatly simplifies beekeeping to be able to use any of the honey in the hive without fear of contamination. And to be able to treat without worrying about supers on or off.

I've had good luck so far just fogging with FMGO without any cords and doing small cell. If my mite populations ever get too high doing this, I will consider what my next fallback position is, but the oxalic acid might be my choice. At least it doesn't smell.

Also, what could be better for Tracheal mites than fogging FGMO? Easy, odorless, tasteless and doesn't drive the bees out of the hive like menthol.

[Dr. Pedro Rodriguez]

Hello folks.
My apologies to the contributors to this forum. I consider that Mr. Axtmann's continued attacks on FGMO require a direct reply from me. I would reply to him personally, had I had his private e-mail. In the absence of that, I consider it necessssary to reply via the forum.
Herr Axtmann:
Sir, I am a devoted, practicing christian but quite unable to give any one blessings as you have claimed. In my previous post I wrote saying that I would pray to The Lord to give you guidance and grant you peace, which I will do, have no doubts. I also stated that I welcome your posts to this forum because they maintain the dynamics of the ongoing dialogue. Read my lips. In my compasionate, chritian ways, that means that I am using you.
Regardless of your diatribe and distorted attacks on my work, rest assured that you will not discourage me from continuing my work nor that of hundreds of others who speak of their success uwith FGMO.
Again, may the Lord grant you peace and guide your ways.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez

[Ian]

It is cerious to me why you are adding Thymol to FGMO. If FGMO worked as effective as claimed, you would not need Thymol to finish off the mites. I thought one of the ideas of FGMO treatmetn was to treat the hives year round without harmfull conaminating concerns. As far as I understant, Thymol residues would be a problem.
Perhaps you would save alot of work if you just used the Thymol treatment to control the mites.

Ian