View Full Version : Another data point...
04-18-2003, 07:24 PM
I'd like to add my preliminary results to the stack. I've been following Dr. R. recommendation doing both the fogging and the cords. For the first month I fogged once a week and put in 4 new mop cords every 2 weeks. I check for mites using the screened bottom board and tray. At the end of the first month I was still getting a mite count averaging 50 per 24 hour period. This was down from 100 per 24 hour for the first week. I was concerned about the mite count being so high. There were 10-20 deformed drone brood and a half dozen deformed workers at the entrance every day.
For the last month I've started fogging twice a week for around 10 seconds with 6 mop cords every 2 weeks. This is a big hive with a single deep and 5 shallows (don't ask).
Here's the interesting part. This hive is going gangbusters. It is just packed with bees, brood, honey and pollen. Three weeks ago I reversed the bottom layer deep and the shallow right above it because the deep had zero brood in it. Perfectly clean. I haven't checked since due to cool weather.
The mite count continues to hover right at 50 per day. While a high number, as a percentage of the hive population it is probably decreasing as the population grows daily. I hesitate to put in Apistan because in the Pacific Northwest we are right in the middle of the Maple tree flow and the hive is doing so well.
Here are my questions:
1) Am I hurting my hive by fogging so much?
2) Are these mite count numbers out of line with what other people are seeing?
3) Are there sustainable mite levels or are am I just breeding 'super mites' that will be resistant to FGMO in the near future?
04-20-2003, 07:08 PM
With a natural mite drop that high,and the hive is showing the first stages of deformed wing virus,I guarantee you are going to lose this hive.Sorry.
Dr. Pedro Rodriguez
04-21-2003, 08:28 AM
"with a natural mite fall that high you are going to lose that hive"
Not necessarily so! During the past eight years performing FGMO research, I have seen hives with extremely high mite drop counts that survived with treatment. Granted, most untreated hives do perish within a year or two. Also granted, there are hives with natural mite resistance that survive even with high mite counts.
04-21-2003, 09:25 PM
I dont disagree that there is a chance for survival,just that from what I have experienced it is a slim one.I really wonder if we have a particularly nasty strain of the DWV here in california as I have seen hundreds of hives crash from this in spite of all kinds of attempts at saving the hives.Here in Cal hives can crash with only hundreds of mites not the normal thousands that it seems to take elsewhere.The viruses just seem to explode and spread like wildfire.
04-22-2003, 07:20 AM
To add to the above ,I would immediately take any hive out of production that was showing DWV(take off all honey supers)and treat with Apistan if the mites in your area arent resistant to it, or Checkmite(coumaphos).The mites are the vectors of this virus,like rat fleas carrying the plague.If you can keep the mite numbers down,the virus will not get going ,even though it may be present at low levels in the hive.But there comes a point where the virus explodes in the hive and no longer needs the mites to vector it.At that point the hive is doomed and no treatment can save it.Now the hive is too weak to defend itself,robbers show up and the virus -loaded mites climb on and ride to all the hives in the area.I have seen perfectly healthy hives dead a month later with this scenario.The usual time for this is in late summer,but I would be **** nervous seeing DWV in a hive at this time of year.
04-22-2003, 07:44 PM
Deformed Wing Virus
04-23-2003, 10:28 AM
Just a question? I have never seen DWV, but had a hive with a number of deformed bees for a few days last spring. The best explanation we could come up with was that the brood had been chilled. Not enough to kill them, just enough to mess them up. After a week of deformities, the hive was fine and quite strong by the end of the season.
Are you still seeing deformed bees? If not, maybe it isn't the virus after all.
04-26-2003, 05:23 AM
What type of bees do you have, and do you have hives that have a lower mite drop? If so why don't you try requeening from one of your other hives?
04-26-2003, 08:05 AM
These are Buckfast bees. I only have one hive and I wanted to see if the FGMO system works or not before I re-queen. If this hive fails I will try another type of queen. Any recomendations?
04-26-2003, 01:07 PM
I'm not even going to try and tell you or anyone what the best "bee" is. You will find most/all races have some type of mite resistance. The main question was if you had more than one hive and if they were doing better with the mite drop numbers.
All things being said I will pull a hive from a tree or house, befor I ever buy another package or nuc. I rase my queens, and if I must confess, I don't care what ends up in the hive (I do have a place in my hart for AMM). I couldn't tell you what my mite drop is. The test for my hives works very well...If the bees die from the mites then they weren't of good stock anyway. No not all of my hives are like this just a few, on the rest I use FGMO, but I still don't do a mite count.
05-14-2003, 11:05 AM
Just a report on currant hive conditions...
I have been fogging since the first of this year and installing cords since March. I have one have that was a nuc last spring. This past weekend when I did some checking it is boiling over with bees I'm using a deep and a medium for hive bodies. To keep them from swarming I added a second deep for a hive body. The only mite count I have been doing is to uncap drone cells So far I have not found any mites. It appears that the FGMO method is working. I have not treated with any other methods for anything. Hoping for a lot of honey!
05-14-2003, 07:51 PM
Hi Greg, to save your colony you can use chemicals like Apistan or Cumafos. I wouldnt go for that, but I would treat the bees with vaporized oxalic acid. I tell you; I had one hive with the same high infection last year and vaporized approx 6 or 7 weeks 7 days apart. With oxalic acid there is no residue in wax or honey. Not one bee or the queen gets killed from the fog.
I had also lots of deformed bees but after that long treatment the colony was fine and is one of my strongest hive this year.
The manufacturer from the Vaporizers has also a new Oxamite Varroa strip on the marked and on his website.
I got a few bags 14 day ago and it is for a longtime treatment only with several natural ingredients including oxalic acid.
Strips working fine and I have to check them every 5 weeks thats all. The strips can stay in the hive till the bees had shredded the material. When bees shredding that stuff they coming in contact with the ingredients that kills all mites outside the cells. The best treatment I ever had for young colonies.
Good thing, there is no mite resistant from the acids possible. Its like a steelworker 40 years in business and still not resistant against liquid steel.
05-14-2003, 09:16 PM
Thanks for the advice Alfred! Do you have the web site of the company that makes these strips?
I just check the hive in question and it's doing well but the mite count remains at about 50 per day.
They seem to be packing in the honey from the spring flow of Maples.
05-14-2003, 11:09 PM
Heilyser Technologies is the name of the company.
I only found the strips in the order section, no other information other than price.
$11. per ten strips is half the price of Apistan and even less than Checkmite. Minimum order is four packs of ten, $44.+S&H
I'm still wishing that I bought the vaporizer instead of the fogger.
Dr. Pedro Rodriguez
05-15-2003, 02:04 AM
Just a line or two to dismiss erroneous information posted on this forum.
1. I have constantly stated that there wont EVER be any possibility of mites developing resistance to FGMO.
2. It has been demonstrated, and I have quoted references from Italian investigators, who by the way have been doing research with honey bee mites for over a decade now, that honey bee mites WILL eventually develop resitance to chemical pesticides, including orgnic acids.
There is no reason to develop panic when you see mite counts increase. As the old saying goes, "do not change horses in the middle of the stream." Give your treatments, what ever they might be, an opportunity to work.
05-15-2003, 11:06 AM
Bill where did you find this website? I have the informations from a German site and I got the strips from here. The page is in German and English also and the info is on the Vaporizers page on the bottom. http://de.geocities.com/vaporizerklaus/
It says the price for 4 bags and up is including shipping and handling.
I checked the strips today and they look similar like the strip on the picture after 14 days in hive. The bees shredding the strip in little fine hairs and it must work like a brush on the bees.
If the mites really getting resistant against the natural acids it would be on the time to find this out. We are using the natural acids as treatments since 1978 two years later we got the mites here in Germany. If the natural acids are chemical pesticides we should never eat vegetables because there are full of those CHEMICAL PESTICIDES and I love spinach, brussels sprouts and rhubarb.
05-16-2003, 04:29 PM
I see that you are in the neighborhood
There is an increase noticed since last September , first in one colony and then two more in my other location . Although I treat with FGMO since Dec 1999 and had no drops to speak of until above date and later
Meantime I encounter a stady drop in 24 hours of 30 to 50 daily . At first it bothered me and headscratching was acute / However I have yet to see any mites on the bee bodies (Phoretic) or any vector problem. The colonies look good as far as pattern and brood goes . I have now some 20 colonies and see no other indication of drops other than those 3 . I fog weekly and change cords when dry. The race of bees ? Mostly mongrels of undetermined origin but very little italian influence . Definite Russian and Carnicas among the queens . There are few local "Survivors "among them. One of the advantages of FGMO is the dual purpose of the mite problem both Varroa as well as Tracheal . I still have to check the percentages of mites .
05-17-2003, 10:41 PM
Thanks for the feedback Juan! Where do you keep your hives? I'm going to be moving to San Juan Island across the strait from you this summer and I worry that there will not be enough forage for my girls. I've only got a couple of hives but am looking to expand into a sideline operation after the moover
I noticed an ad in the ABJ that someone was raising queen in your area. Is that you? If not have you tried their queens?
05-20-2003, 02:08 PM
this is an attempt to answer your post . I have not been able to send one since apparently it is blocked by something or someone.
05-20-2003, 02:24 PM
It seems that the mess was fixed , whatever it was .
To answer your questions
My location is Sequim . Elevation anywhwere from 200 feet to 1000 and in between . Foraging is varied from alders/ willows and maples . followed by dandilions and an array of wild floweres . Fruit trees are at a minimun compared to wild stuff .Some areas offer vegetable crop , lavender . Blueberries are mostly pollinated by Bumble bees. Other berries by our bees . So is Fireweed . I assume the same applies to the islands . Vancouver island has also all the ingrediences of foraging .
Dan Harvey of the Olympic Wilderness Apiary is the only commercial operator and Queen breeder on the peninsula . His brand is Local wilderness survivors of alledged Caucasian origin and the late Russian kind . Both have resistance to Tracheal mites and have hygienic behavior. Availability is depended on weather patterns and mostly June would be the month to keep an eye on .
Try his wesite which is still under construction : www.owa.cc (http://www.owa.cc)
His e mail is : email@example.com
JDPS : There are 4 of us applying FGMO I know of incl Dan
[This message has been edited by Juandefuca (edited May 20, 2003).]
Dr. Pedro Rodriguez
06-07-2003, 08:26 AM
With much sadness in my heart I announced that I would cease posting on this forum. I wrote to Barry on his private mail box indicating the reason. I have received multiple mails since, questionining my reasons. In appreciation of the multitude of beekeepers who are using FGMO, whether they visit this web page or not, I have decided to state my reasons here.
As most of you may know, I have spent eight long years doing FGMO research strictly my own expense, not financed by others. I have promptly donated my findings to beekeepers in particular and to humanity in general. My sole aim is to offer potential ways and means to protect honey bees.
At the onset, this forum was a good and fertile source of information for protection against honey bee mites. Unfortunately, as time went on, the forum has turned into a three-ring circus in which "persons" with conflict of interest (representing commercial pesticides) and others who use the forum for personal exposure (getting on the lime-light) using the forum to post conflicting "thoughts."
Unfortunately these "posts" do harm to "newbies" who visit the forum in earnest looking for real answers to their problems.
I continue to perform FGMO research, introducing variables in an effort to find more effective ways to protect honey bees from parasites, including Small Hive Beetles this year.
In an effort to continue to privide my findins to beekeepers world-wide, I will soon publish my preliminary findings in this area. Although still in the development stage, findings look highly promising.
My plead to this forum: please refrain from interfeering with the good intentions of those who seek help honestly. If you must get on the "lime-light," please find ather avenues. There are many of those elsewhere. You owe it to honey bees without which humanity can not survive. As the genuis Einstein once wrote, "without honey bees there wont be grass . . . . humanity would only last four years."
And to state my reason fro quitting the forum (to which I continue to post ocassionally in an effort to dismiss erroneous information posted): I do not have time to deal with the efforts of those who wish to interfere with my work. My time is too valuable and I rather dedicate it to my research. As stated, findings will soon be published.
Thanks to all who strust my work and FGMO.
06-07-2003, 10:11 AM
Dear Dr. R.,
Sorry to hear about you leaving the forum. Your contributions were valuable and insightful. Being in a leadership position exposes you to 'pot shots' from many different sides.
One nice aspect is that FGMO is a straight forward protocol and most questions can be answered in the FAQ. Your answering the 'Can I use the supermarket mineral oil?' question is not a good use of your time. It would be better for you to concentrate on research, trials, new application methods and the worldwide publication of the results. Occasional post to keep us upto date would be appreciated. Keep up the good work and don't let detractors get you down.
Dr. Pedro Rodriguez
06-07-2003, 12:55 PM
Thanks to all of you who have written. My heart goes out to all of you.
Incidentally, to those of you who may have the opportunity to attend:
I'll be making a presentation on FGMO at the VA/MD state beekeeping association in Manassas, VA on the 20th (PM)of June and at Fort Wayne, Indiana on the 21st of June (AM).
Best of luck with your endeavors.