Calling all sailors

[Barry Digman]

Ever since I spent a week on a sailboat in Florida I've been looking at boats and wondering "What if..."

Anyway, how hard is it to learn to sail? How long does it take to learn to handle a small (14' or so) sailboat? I realize that some spend a lifetime learning, but can you learn enough in a summer on an inland lake to be proficient enough to do a little coastal cruising in the ocean? I'm a desert rat and have always been terrified of the sea, but for some reason I'm now intrigued. Maybe a symptom of midlife crisis, but what the heck. Where does one start? I think the closest sailing school would be about 1,000 miles from here.

[Michael Bush]

>Ever since I spent a week on a sailboat in Florida I've been looking at boats and wondering "What if..."

Should I remind you? There isn't any water in New Mexico. smile.gif

[Beesplease]

Coyote,
It really doesn't take long to learn. I wouldn't go to a sailing school unless you just have alot of money that you don't know what to do with. If that is the case, for a very large fee, I could teach you. :cool: Seriously, go to the library and find a book on sailing basics, then it's just practice. The basics are really straight forward and you can learn the rest as you go. Bon Voyage

[Barry Digman]

Hey! We have water. It's just all in one or two places.

The closest real lake to me is Navajo Resevoir, about 35,000 acres. I can make Lake Powell to the west of me in a few hours.

[drobbins]

coyote

hehe, you'll be doomed when you read this smile.gif
here's my wife's journal from our sailing trip to the bahamas in the early 90's

http://www.drobbins.net/wench/index.html

I learned on lakes and a little on the coast
it's not to hard
there's a LOT of people in the bahamas with very little experience

Dave

[ February 17, 2006, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]

[Beesplease]

>there's a LOT of people in the bahamas with very little experience

I can testify to the truth of that statement. smile.gif

[Barry Digman]

<Seriously, go to the library and find a book>

That's what I'm working on now. But it ain't as easy as it sounds....

"First loosen boom vang then release mainsail halyard and lower sail to point where luff cringle can be lashed to boom. Tighten halyard and cleat it. Lash leech cringle to boom (pulling it outwards at an angle of 45d t tension it). Gather up sail and tie it up using reef knots. Retension the boom vang."

I didn't make that up. Page 92 of "The Handbook of Sailing" by Bob Bond.

[Barry Digman]

<here's my wife's journal from our sailing trip to the bahamas in the early 90's>

Well, I just got through a couple of chapters and many of the photos. Do you realize what a lucky man you are? Great site. Lovely woman. Is the parrot still with you?

[Jim Fischer]

The names of all the lines can get confusing,
so the way I'd suggest to learn to sail is
with a Sunfish on a lake. Most decent-sized
lakes have someone who both rents them and
gives lessons with these, the simplest of
sailing craft.

From there, once you have basic principles
learned, the books start to make a lot more
sense. You can then move up in size and
complexity as your time and budget allow.

I worked my way up to a 42-foot circa 1920s
wooden-hulled ocean-going sloop that I rigged
with electic winches for solo sailing, then lived
on and sailed from the Las Olas municipal docks
in Ft. Lauderale FL.

Bought her at a DEA auction, so I just had
to paint her bright green down to the waterline,
name her "Grasshopper", and register her with a
home port of Lake Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire (a
land-locked lake). The Coast Guard just loooved
me. smile.gif

But anyone can learn to sail, it is going out
of sight of land that makes it start to get
technical, and starts to require one to be
a nearly paranoid planner. Don't sweat the
names of the lines and bocks and other crap,
just buy a GPS and a backup GPS, and learn
to use a freakin' sextant before you try
anything more than coastal sailing.

Bikini-Wearing Reader Of Novels: "How many
years have you served before the mast?"
Me: "Don't be silly - the mast has ALWAYS
been there. This is a sailboat."

[George Fergusson]

>the way I'd suggest to learn to sail is
with a Sunfish on a lake.

My advice exactly. They do well in a light wind, you don't worry about getting wet because you're already wet, and tipping them over if par for the course, you just flip it over, climb back on, and keep sailing.

For the past 4 years we've had an 18' Hobie Cat on our lake, that is a scarey boat. I've had it up to 22 knots, in a decent wind it's faster than most motor boats on the lake. I can single hand it, but it's really a 2 person boat and when (not if) it tips over, it takes a small crew to right it. Personally, it's too much boat for me- I'm now looking for a smaller, easier to manage boat.

There's nothing like sailing.

[David Stewart]

Don't let the terms confuse you. I took a "easy credit" course in college titled "Outdoor Boat and Camp Safety". We were taught the basics in a two hour classroom session and then took to the water in a small 12 footer. Mainsail and single small jib. The practical was a fairly straightforward three step process......
Step 1. If turning the rudder to the left doesn't make you go,
Step 2. Turn it to the right...
Step 3. Continue with whatever above step works until your speed peaks and begins to decrease or you are about to crash into something..At that point, back off the rudder to return to ramming....um, I mean max speed. ;)

[Jim Fischer]

> I can single hand it, but it's really a 2 person
> boat and when (not if) it tips over, it takes a
> small crew to right it.

Actually, a larger boat, with a keel is
much easier to "put the rail in the water" than
a Hobie Cat. A couple of tons of keel is a big
confidence-builder. smile.gif

That said, cats are great for sailing near
reefs and such. Much more forgiving with that
shallow draft. smile.gif

[Barry Digman]

I had my eye on something like this, but it looks like it might be a problem to cartop or trailer.


http://www.yachtworld.com/core/uk/listing/pl_display_photo.jsp?boat_id=1345210&boatname=257%27+Barkentine+&photo_name=Photo+1&photo=1&url=

[George Fergusson]

>Actually, a larger boat, with a keel is
much easier to "put the rail in the water"

Ayuh. A Hobie is pretty much an accident waiting to happen, they aren't really sailing until you've got one hull 3' in the air and the other one ready to dive and then you're not so much sailing as you are flying. Sailing them on the edge is also counter-intuitive.. when you're heeled over and start to feel it going over, you've got to turn IN to the wind and NOT let out the main. Dumping the main and turning downwind just doesn't help smile.gif

Boats with keels are fine in the ocean, but for lakes you generally want a centerboard that you can pull up and adjust for the conditions. I'm looking for something along the lines of a 14' dingy, or a 14' cat. My lifestyle now doesn't really permit owning a larger sailboat. There's no shortage of folks down on the coast with boats that have already had lots of other people's money poured into them and just need sailing.

[George Fergusson]

>it looks like it might be a problem to cartop or trailer.

No problem Coyote, you can easily fit a car AND trailer on top of that.

[drobbins]

you'd be surprised what can be trailered

http://www.drobbins.net/pics/

Dave

[Barry Digman]

<Sailing them on the edge is also counter-intuitive>

The more I read the more counter-intuitive much of it seems. I would think that sailing directly WITH the wind on a run would be the easiest and fastest, but the book says otherwise. Apparently this requires more skill than the other "points of sail". (I learned a new phrase which I will bandy about ad nauseum to anyone within earshot for the next week).

[drobbins]

on a reach, going faster makes the apparent wind speed go up
on a run, going faster makes the apparent wind speed go down

Dave

[George Fergusson]

Catamarans are a whole different breed of sailboat. They're not limited by normal hull dynamics (about which I really don't know much) because the faster you go, the less hull you have in the water, sort of like hydrofoils. That said, they're still sailboats and the basic principles apply.

You'd think that running before the wind (sailing with the wind behind you) would be the fastest, but it isn't. Sailing at right angles to the wind with your sails hauled in tight is the fastest. I guess that's a reach. As much sailing as I've done, I'm really not all that conversant with the nautical terms arrrh...

I'm seriously wanting an ice boat, speaking of sailing. Today would be PERFECT...

[drobbins]

simply for example, these numbers aren't achievable
if the wind blows 20 knots and you sail at 90 degree's to it at 20 knots (a reach) the apparent windspeed is 28 knots
if the wind blows 20 knots and you sail downwind (a run) at 20 knots, the apparent windspeed is zero

Dave

[Hillside]

Go to the library, get a copy of Chapman's Piloting and Seamanship, and then read it. It'll take a while, but it's fun.

Then when the weather warms up a bit, find a SMALL boat, and start practicing. You may find small water sailing is better than big water. I've been sailing since I was about 7 years old and have never been on anything bigger than Lake Superior (which I guess is pretty big) and have no intention of taking any ocean going trips.

It's the most fun when you can get another boat to go out with you. There is nothing better than a little friendly racing. (And a couple friendly drinks afterwards)

A Sunfish is an exellent small lake racer. Easy to sail. No jib to mess with. Only two lines and really you only need to mess with one except when raising or lowering the sail.

Get wet. Have fun.

Oh, talk to someone experienced about how to upright a small boat. It's not hard, but it can appear hard the first time.

[drobbins]

here's a classic "must read" for free online

http://www.humboldt1.com/ar/literary/slocum2.htm

Slocum was the first to circumnavigate singlehanded

Dave

[Barry Digman]

I found this sailing forum. Not nearly as big or active as beesource, but interesting nonetheless.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/

[george dilley]

you could go to the local book store or mag shop and pick up a copy of wooden boat in the back they have boats for sale and even some for free all sizes

[izduz]

George. You can always rig a righting line around the tramp. Carry a couple heavy duty leaf bags on the boat for filling with water when you need additional weight getting it turned over. Flying a hull is great fun, but in reality, your spilling alot of air and losing speed when you lift the hull that high. The weather hull should be just lapping the water keeping the boat as flat as possible, but cutting the drag in half. When the rigging starts singing, you know your maxing it out. If the hulls have a tendency to dive when driving hard to weather, lengthen the forstay slightly. This moves power back toward the center of the boat. Hobie Cats are designed with a severe rocker, and highly overpowered rig and there are many tuning points to balance the boat.

If the cat is too much for ya, get something in the olympic class small boats like a flying dutchman. But I would always get something with a jib. While there is some drive to weather with a jib, its' real job is to generate big horsepower by funneling more air, actually increasing lift (the wing is vertical not horizontal)

[George Fergusson]

Boy izduz, sounds like you know your cats! We carried extra lines and for sure, had many enjoyable hours of sailing with BOTH hulls in the water. It was amazing how well it would sail with almost no wind at all.

It was fun to really fly it when the wind was right though, and we did on plenty of occassions. The first time we dumped it, the port hull leaked and quickly sank. That was a fiasco that took 3 days to recover from smile.gif

It really is too much boat for me, not that I couldn't sail it. I'm looking for something requiring a lot less committment. I'd be happy this summer with a sunfish. Maybe a few weeks pushing one of those around the lake will make me think twice about a Hobie smile.gif

[izduz]

Yes, Ive been around Hobie Cats a long time. I started sailing them in the early 70's and still have one in the back yard. It doesn't get in the water much anymore, but I just can't part with it.

One thing to remember about boats. A bigger, faster, more comfortable boat is always tugging on your sleeve trying to get your attention. You can shorten the trip by starting with a little more boat at the beginning.

[Chris M]

Cyote,
There is a thing out your way called land yachting. Very basically it is a 'sunfish' sailboat with wheels that you sail on a dry lake bed. You have a nice hard surface under you, a very strong fast 'boat' that can achieve speeds of 100mph+ and no brakes. What could possibly go wrong? smile.gif I found the name of a shop that may be localish to you and they may be able to give you more/better info.
TERRA SAILER INC.
15 Nova Road
Santa Fe NM 87505
505-471-8255

[George Fergusson]

>There is a thing out your way called land yachting.

Excellent suggestion Chris- go for it Coyote! I've heard it's a blast, the only thing comparable here in Maine is ice boating and my personal favorite, being towed on ice skates by a car, snomobile, or ice boat. A few other suggestions:

First, make sure your insurance is paid up and that you're covered for multiple fractures and lacerations and extended hospital stays. Mortuary insurance might not be out of the question. Read your policy carefully to make sure there's no limitations for "gross negligence" or downright stupidity. You might lower your deductihle to around oh, say $2 or so.

Second, wear a helmet.

George-

[Sundance]

I have a copy of "Chapman's Piloting and Seamanship" if your interested. Would condider trading bee stuff for it.

It is a great book for learning the basics and well beyond.

I live on a shallow lake that the North Dakota winds can get you absolutly screaming on!!!!!

A blast

[George Fergusson]

>I live on a shallow lake

That's the other thing izduz. I live on Clary lake which is about 1 mile across and 1.5 miles long. The wind tends to come out of the north west and run down the lake, so our best (fastest) runs are back and forth across the lake. At speed, it takes about 2 minutes before you've gotta slam on the brakes and tack... hardly enough time to get comfortable. Running up and down the lake likewise involves a lot of tacking, plus the winds are squirrely with the coves. An 18' hobie cat is a LOT of boat for a lake this size.

[izduz]

Whatever boat you settle on, join a racing association, grit your teeth, and go hard. Most of the time, you will probably end up with a wet butt and an empty gut, but it's great fun, and racing is where you really learn. For a number of years, I participated in a racing clinic at San Diego. They provided small J-boats. Quick and responsive. When you get a sailboat set up right, you can sail it without turning the rudder. (light air tactic) and shift body weight to roll tack her or turn.
Anyways.. have a ball.

[wfarler]

Find a chapter of the Coast Guard Auxiliary - believe it or not there is probably one in the desert too. They offer beginning sailing classes for free or a token fee.

Usually ends up with one or two lessons on the water. You can offer to crew for racers, they always need 'rail meat' but you will not learn sailing so much as competing, yelling and a sign language.

Sailing and beekeeping can be the same - both can bring you closer to nature and raise your awareness.

wfarler
'Salsa Caliente'
C36 Lake Texohoma, TX

[ March 09, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: wfarler ]

[Rainman15]

Ever since I spent a week on a sailboat in Florida I've been looking at boats and wondering "What if..."
Anyway, how hard is it to learn to sail? Hi. My name is Chris and I'm in the US Coast Guard. I'm retiring in a couple years and moving back home to NC and have been researching bee s as a possible passtime once I hang up the uniform. All I can say about your question is please wait two years to attempt this so I don't have to go looking for you. ;)


Seriously, if you are interested in learning to sail there are Celestrial Navigation courses available online from many sources, such as the College of Charleston in SC, and our CG auxiliary is also available to help with a courtesy safety inspection prior to setting sail. I strongly suggest taking advantage of both of these opportunities before you ever leave the dock. Your life literally could depend on it.

[ March 17, 2006, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Rainman15 ]

[onlygoodSHBisdeadone]

Hey Chris! Bees are fun but still no mach for a 44'r in heavy surf.

[Barry Digman]

<I strongly suggest taking advantage of both of these opportunities before you ever leave the dock.>

Not to worry, I'm a long way from attempting anything on my own. But if I WAS...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp;jsessionid=b3jONCFJ5Kbc?sl im=broker&boat_id=1422734&ybw=&hosturl=a1a&&ywo=a1a&&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=18 224&url=&hosturl=a1a&&ywo=a1a& (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_full_detail.jsp;jsessionid=b3jONCFJ5Kbc?sl im=broker&boat_id=1422734&ybw=&hosturl=a1a&&ywo=a1a&&units=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=18224&url=&hosturl=a1a&&ywo=a1a&)

[Sharkey]

Coyote ! Sailing , huh ? :D

Here is something for you to consider. I saw your post saying it was confusing about downwind sailing v. sailing on other points.

The reason a sailboat moves (other than when sailing downwind :D ) is the same reason an airplane does.... "lift."

If you could hover directly above the top point of a mast as the boat was sailing, the shape of the sail would be amazingly similar to the wing of an aircraft.

What makes an aircraft (a/c) fly (or move forward for that matter) has to do with the physics of air molecules passing on each side of the "foil" (or wing... or sail). Physics law demands that when they go to each side on the leading edge, they must meet at the trailing edge at the same time. :rolleyes:

The shortest distance between two points is, of course, a straight line. That is the case (a straight line) on ONE side of the foil, but not the other. Therefore, in order for the one molecule to meet up with the other molecule at the same time, the molecule on the curved side has to travel FASTER than the straight side to be able to do it.

This unequal speed results in "lift" on the curved side. Actually, you have positive pressure created on the curved side, and that positive pressure is what creates the additional "pull" and drags the sail, and whatever else is attached to it (the mast, and since the mast happens to be attached to the boat, the boat moves too) in the direction of the pull.

In the case of the a/c, the pull of the propeller is forward, thereby causing the a/c to move in that direction. The forward motion of the a/c causes air to flow over the wings, repeating the aforementioned process, but with the pull being on the top side of the wing, creating "lift" and the faster the a/c moves forward, the more upward lift is created and the plane eventually leaves the ground. "Whew" !

With a sailboat, the lift is basically only directed forward, so the boat moves in that direction.

The little sail you see on the bow area of a sailboat (the jib, or genoa, depending on it's size) utilizes the "venturi" effect which simply directs more air over the curved side of the mainsail, thus creating even greater pressure and resulting in even greater speed.

Sailing downwind, there is no venturi effect and the wind is merely PUSHING the boat (as opposed to pulling it by lift) and therefore, the boat can only move forward as fast as the wind itself happens to be blowing. Gawd !! :eek:

The size of a displacement hull vessel has a direct effect on it's maximum speed. The longer the boat, the faster it can sail. But I will save the lecture on what a displacement hull is, how it works and the difference between it and a planing hull for another time. Right now, I have worn my typers out !! :( hehehe

[Barry Digman]

<Coyote ! Sailing , huh>

Thanks Sharkey. I was wondering if Bernouli was a factor. I've seen the newer rigid "wings" concept on a boat that look like an airplane wing, but I wasn't sure about the standard sails.

My week in the Keys was nice, but I didn't get to sail. For those who are considering staying in a condo in Key West, the price of the room only SOUNDS like they're quoting a down payment on a mortgage. You don't get to keep the place. :confused:

I enjoy the history of the wreckers in the Keys, and the old photos of the ships that sailed that area. There were a couple of wooden hulled vessels tied up that were really beautiful. You look at one of those ships that sailed the Atlantic hundreds of years ago and think what kind of men they must have been.

[izduz]

A couple other points on lift being converted to forward motion on a sail boat are aspect ratio and the keel. The lift generated by the sail needs to be coverted to forward motion. On most boats, this is done by the keel or dagger boards. The boat wants to sideslip, but the keel forces the energy fore and aft. It's like squeezing a mellon seed between your fingers. Even though the pressure comes from the side, the seed will eventually shoot out forward as you squeeze it. Higher aspect ratio sails allow you to point higher, moving the apparent wind forward. This is important when sailing to an upwind mark, as it cuts distance sailed and increases distance made toward goal. However it is not the fastest point of sail. Hull length and displacement are critical in creating boat speed. Generally, the longer the water line, the more speed the hull is capable of. I don't remember the physics involved, but it becomes factors of smooth flow of water over the hull. Laminar seperation can slow the hull in light air, as the hull begins to drag, caught in it's own wake. At speed, laminar seperation is healthy as the disturbed water doesn't have a chance to grab the boat and slow it.

Driving hard to weather with a good crew is a blast, but for me, being at the helm at midnight, spinaker flying and the crew all asleep while the cabin wench fetches me a beer.. now thats heaven.

[Barry Digman]

<while the cabin wench fetches me a beer..>

If I even suggested that my cabin wench fetch me something I'd soon learn the meaning of the term "keel hauled"....

[izduz]

Once you let em graduate from cabin wench, to chief cook and bottle washer.. all is lost!! bhahahahahahahahah

[izduz]

DANG IT!! I didn't realize how much I was missing sailing until George made me think about it. I sold my Nelson Marek designed boat (Critical Mass) about 8 years ago. It was a great blend of speed and comfort, an absolute monster on a run. Now I find myself at the marina on weekends volunteering as anything from a helmsman to rail beef!! 2 mile beer can race?? I brought the beer!! 80 miler with a squall blowing in?? I'll trim the main all night long!! Someone count down the starting gun!!! Ready about!!.. helms the lead.. here we gooooooooo!!!