Biodiesel

[djuniorfan8]

Why am i just now hearing about Biodiesel? This is such a great idea, i've got to try it! Anybody out there use this.
- Tim

[SUKIE]

Great stuff. Here in the midwest they add soy oil to it & it smells kinda good. Don't believe the crap on tv about dope head Willie started this product.

[Todd Zeiner]

There is real promise for this around Indiana. It is now stocked at most Co-op farm dealers now.
E85 is coming up too. 85% Ethanol 15%gas Research google for "E85 fuel"
Makes all this corn around here look valuable. Our Lt Gov drives a Chevy Suburban that runs on E85

[Hillside]

I have driven a Ford pickup that ran on E85. It worked well, except that you give up some mileage. The price of E85 was low enough though to make up for the loss.

I doubt there is enough crop land available to produce both our food and energy needs unless we add a fair amount of marginal land into the mix. Much of that land being easily erodable would require new crops that could be grown successfully in those conditions. The president was talking switchgrass. Maybe he knows something we don't.

[chemistbert]

Switchgrass is a VERY good source for EtOH production. It can produce something like 5 or 6 times the ethanol per acre than the other "good" crops. I don't recall actual numbers but it is impressive.

[Darrel Wright]

It can produce something like 5 or 6 times the ethanol per acre than the other "good" crops. I don't recall actual numbers but it is impressive.

I don't think it is that much more dense per acre if you included corn's cellulose content, which would be apples to apples. I think the issue is that you don't need to seed, row crop, and fertilize, so you save most of the energy on the input side. I think ethanol from corn is like 1.3 gallons out per gallon in, and switchgrass is almost 4 or 5 out per gallon in. Switchgrass is pretty much just regular meadow grass I think.

"The president was talking switchgrass. Maybe he knows something we don't."

The key word there is "talking."

This is a no-brainer, but don't hold your breath from this administration. IMO, they won't spend money on anything that is this close to actually happening. They will continue to fund "research" that is already proven, but this is ready to move to production and there will be no commitment there. I think I read Brazil's fuel supply is already like 30 or 40% ethanol from cellulose. But somehow we need more "research?" Uh-huh.

Look for more "Fuel-cells by 2085."

[John F]

<Darrel Wright>
they won't spend money on anything that is this close to actually happening.

Why wait for an administration? If you believe it, do it.

Biodiesel isn't all that tough to make. There are many good online resources for educating yourself on the methods.

The economics involved in switching an entire nation aren't all worked out. Right now, we couldn't produce enough biodiesel in the U.S.A. to offset the petroleum use if we put all of our farming resources into it. (Oh, and still eat.)

But, grabing gallons of oil stock from the waste stream and producing enough for yourself is still very viable. Every little bit helps.

And some engines will process the waste oil with just a bit of cleaning. So you don't even need to make biodiesel.

There is a member of this site that teaches this very thing! I would send you to her site but I don't remember where it is. Look up the appleseed reactor.

[ February 06, 2006, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: John F ]

[iddee]

Well, I guess the search function doesn't work too well. I c/p the appleseed reactor and searched all forums and it came up with nothing. It didn't even find your post.

[Darrel Wright]

"Why wait for an administration? If you believe it, do it."

I believe the estimates on creating break-even economy-of-scale numbers for cellulose digesters involve conversion plants and surrounding plantations that are in the hundreds of millions of dollars. There are some things that can only be done economically on a mega-scale, and this is the poster-child for that principal.

Maybe some financing whiz will take up the challenge. It probably wouldn't take too much of a push before energy companies would jump into the competition, and then we'd really see something.

[John F]

<iddee>
I guess the search function

Whoops, sorry. Do a search for biodiesel appleseed reactor on google.

Lot'sa stuff there.

<Darrel Wright>
I believe the estimates ...

Well, I suppose that eliminates you from the competition.

I haven't looked into making ethanol for myself but I imagine a still.

I have looked into making biodiesel and I know it isn't too hard if you have a source of oil stock.

What is economically prudent?; well, that's up to you.

[miele]

I have heard that a byproduct of making biodiesel is a very strong acid or base, which is hard to dispose of, making biodeisel not quite so "environmental" as everyone makes it out to be.

[iddee]

The main byproduct of biodiesel is glycerol, or what we call glycerin. You use it daily in soaps, lotions, etc. It is also a decent plant food, biodegradable, good additive to your compost pile.

[iddee]

Thanks, john, I found it. They have a much easier way to titrate than the site I have been using.

[Darrel Wright]

"I think I read Brazil's fuel supply is already like 30 or 40% ethanol from cellulose."

Self-correction--most of their ethanol is from sugar-cane, which is by far the best ethanol crop from an input-output standpoint, and of course most of it is produced from the sucrose. Apparently they do cellulose digestion on the waste only in a limited way. Nonetheless, I read an article with scientists engaged in the program here in the U.S. saying the research on cellulose now needs to move to production. They have been operating a scale facility (single-digit tonnes per day) for a while. One guy sounded kind of fed up, like he felt they were being kept in a holding pattern spending money proving things they'd already proved.

On biodiesel...if you are mechanically inclined, I think you can do a modification to just run straight oil in the engine instead. If I remember, the only thing is it needs to be hot enough to be low viscosity when it goes in, so you just have two tanks, run the oil line so it is preheated by the engine block, start up on diesel fuel, then switch over when the heat is high enough. You'd probably have to keep the tank itself warm enough for the oil not to congeal, too. That might mean diverting the engine coolant through that tank. An old diesel bug (with the engine in back) would seem the perfect car to mess around with. There were diesel bugs, right?

On a large scale, biodiesel seems less promising to me than ethanol because of infrastructure and the cost of the feedstock. But using waste fryer oil does make great sense.

[Phoenix]

Anybody out there use this?
- Tim Yes I have used and made my own Bio-Diesel, but I have recently switched to burning straight Waste Vegetable Oil in my diesel. This way I don't have to go through the titration process any longer, nor do I have to purchase any methanol, making the process much more cost effective and less time consuming. Another added benefit to running straight WVO is the fact that I no longer have to find a use for all that glycerine that settles out of a batch of Bio-Diesel.

In order to burn straight WVO though, you need to install a pre-heater, in order thin the viscosity of the oil and raise the temperature closer to it's combustable temperature.

[Kieck]

I think we need to keep some perspective on both biodiesel and ethanol. Right now, ethanol is little better than break-even in terms of energy in to energy out. Depends on who you talk to: ethanol industry studies claim much better energy returns than break-even, but they typically assign "energy credits" for some of the by-products created in ethanol production and typically don't include many of the inputs used to grow the crops. (I realize we COULD grow many of these crops with fewer fossil fuel inputs, but, in reality, we don't.) Some opponents claim we don't even get as much energy out of ethanol as we burn in fossil fuels, but they even include energy consumption in manufacturing the concrete and steel used to build and maintain ethanol plants.

Best estimates: we get a slight return in energy by producing ethanol (about 7% in terms of sheer energy) from corn.

Using more corn to produce ethanol really helps out the corn producers in this country by providing additional markets for their crops (greater demand).

Unfortunately, ethanol production right now also uses vast quantities of water. Some locations are refusing to allow ethanol plants simply because the quantities of water aren't available. Other towns (such as Marshall, Minnesota) have had to drill deeper wells after ethanol plants have lowered aquifer levels below the depths of existing wells.

And that's ethanol. So far, the processes used to create biodiesel are far less efficient than the processes used to make ethanol, even according to the most optomistic of experts. That means we use more energy from fossil fuels to produce biodiesel than we get out of the biodiesel we create.

Overall, I'd say it's a mixed bag. Using agricultural commodities helps support our producers, but the environmental issues and net energy balances suggest that we're not gaining much if anything by switching to these sources.

Because of the fossil fuels required to produce ethanol and biodiesel, we're not likely to reduce our dependence on foreign oil much (unless we switch more heavily to coal, and then think of the air pollution).

[Hillside]

I have a question about the energy balance when producing both biodiesel and alcohol.

In both cases, only part of the crop is used to produce fuel. For biodiesel it's the oil fraction and for alcohol it's the sugar fraction.

Both crops leave the protein available for other uses and with biodiesel the sugars are still left for other uses and with alcohol the oils are left for other uses.

Is this where some of the studies find "energy credits?" And if so, is this inappropriate?

[wayacoyote]

In the '90's PBS had a report on Brazil's use of ethanol and that all street vehicles there began running on it (diesel engines being the exception). The process was for factories to take in sugar cane to extract the sugar. The waste cane was then burned to produce electricity and heat for the factories. The factories, were self-sufficient in that regard.

The problem was that the great demand for sugar cane caused sugar cane producers to go there for selling their crop. What to do for consumable sugar now? Other farmers turned to the poor soil of the rain forest and began demolishing the ecosystems there.

In the US Park Service, we use biodiesel and ethanal/gas for our vehicles. Recently, we temporarily had to go back to straight gasoline during repares to the pumps. I was instantly aware of the improved fuel economy of my van. Some opponents will use this as a benefit of gas over enthanol. However, strictly speaking as a consumer, I'm more interested in $$/ mile over miles/gallon. Hopefully, research and development will progress.

I watched "Dirty Jobs" recently, and a man showed his home biodiesel shop. Once set up, he is currently producing his fuel for $0.40 per gallon and getting the same gas-milage and improved engine durability. Not even mentioning the sweet smell of french fries from his exhaust pipe.

Waya

[George Fergusson]

A few local people here have tried biodiesel but found it economically impractical- I don't know the details but they're not doing it any more. I've thought of retrofitting a car to burn wood smoke. They used to run trucks and cars on wood smoke in Europe during WWII.

[tecumseh]

tecumseh adds a link...

www.biodiesel.org (http://www.biodiesel.org)

it is my understanding the the problem with ethonol is the water associated with the production process.

[Kieck]

>>Both crops leave the protein available for other uses and with biodiesel the sugars are still left for other uses and with alcohol the oils are left for other uses.

>>Is this where some of the studies find "energy credits?" And if so, is this inappropriate?

Yes, that is were some of the studies assign "energy credits." Is it inappropriate? Probably not. It's probably a good idea. Unfortunately, all of the studies that turn by-products into energy credits also fail to include costs of building and maintaining equipment and facilities to produce ethanol or biodiesel. NONE of the studies includes costs or amounts of water in production of either one.

Overall, even including energy credits and excluding energy to maintain/build facilities, even the best estimates for efficiency (if they include the fossil fuels used in producing the crop) suggest that ethanol production only gives us about a 20 percent net yield in energy. Biodiesel is far, far below that, with most of the best estimates still indicating something like a net loss of 10 to 15 percent in terms of energy. The gain in ethanol currently isn't really enough to grant us independence from fossil fuels, but research into improving efficiency could be very important. IF we can improve the system (increase efficiency), and IF we can reduce the energy inputs in agricultural production, both ethanol and biodiesel could give us some renewable sources of energy.

Of course, that brings up the next debate: Bt corn, for example, was designed to reduce pesticide use. Manufacturing and applying pesticides consume large amounts of fossil fuels. One way, then, to reduce the continued dependence on fossil fuels is using GM technology in our crops. Ironically, most people who support ethanol as "environmentally friendly" also oppose GM crops, such as Bt corn.

[Michael Bush]

>They used to run trucks and cars on wood smoke in Europe during WWII.

And on all the Pacific Islands where we (the US) left a lot of internal combustion engines but gasoline was unavailable. And in this country back in the 80's. smile.gif Check out the old Mother Earth News from that era and you can find several articles on it. The typical method is to basically make a charcoal oven. In other words you have wood in the oven which is heated by charcoal and the fumes from the wood go into the carburetors. After a while the wood has been converted to charcoal. The charcoal is now put in the combustion section of the charcoal oven (the bottom) and used as fuel to make more charcoal with the fumes being the "gas" to run the engine. The one built by the staff at Mother Earth News had some filters to clean up the smoke enough to not clog up the carburetor too badly.

[George Fergusson]

>Check out the old Mother Earth News from that era

Thanks Michael, I remember now reading about it in MEN back in those good old days.

This project will be on a back burner (?) for a while smile.gif

[Dick Allen]

Right after the Trans-Alaska Pipeline turned on it’s oil spigot in the early 1980’s, the state of Alaska was awash in royalty revenues. They couldn’t give away much of that money fast enough. One person got a grant to convert an auto engine to wood smoke. The contraption was so big that it had to sit on the back of a flat-bed truck. The fire had to be started more than a few minutes before settiing off on the journey in order to get the gasiifier up to the proper temperature and pressure. It was an interesting curiosity to look at, but .....

[Michael Bush]

The Mother Earth News version fit in the bed of a small pickup truck. Of course the pickup truck wouldn't haul much with the burner and the firewood in the back. smile.gif But it would get you to town.

[Dick Allen]

Yes, those shown in TMEN are smaller than the one I saw here in Anchorage back in the 1980's:


http://www.motherearthnews.com/Alternative_Energy/1981_May_June/Mother_s_Woodburning_Truck

http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1981_March_April/Homemade_Motor_Fuel___From_Firewood

[Michael Bush]

Yep. That's them. I didn't know all those back issues were online. I thought they were just in my basement. smile.gif

[tecumseh]

dick allen sezs:
Yes, those shown in TMEN

tecumseh replies:
woa the mother earth news on line. now that is a find, so thank you very much mr allen.

during the same era they also had plans for a hybrid car. had one in hand and foolishly allowed someone to 'borrow' the plans. think I will look for that...

[Michael Bush]

My favorite hybrid car of the TMEN of that era was a hydraulic car. It had hydraulics to spin the wheels and the braking would pump it back up. It had an accumulator so that the engine could pump up the accumulator and the engine could actually turn itself on and off as needed.

Seems like it was a Ford Torino. smile.gif

[TwT]

I looked into it awhile back and don't know if the supply chain has grown but then it was like 200 station's across the U.S. that carried Bio-deisel and atlest 4 places here in Ga. that sold it only in 55 gallon drums. I need to look it up again...

[TwT]

I looked at Tecumceh link and seems they have grown alot on the map, most are in the crop section of the country...

http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/distributors/

[ February 16, 2006, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: TwT ]