Goats

[BubbaBob]

So ... someone tell me all I need to know about raising dairy goats, selling milk, and making and selling cheese.

BubbaBob

[Bob Harrison]

Goats don't sting! Keep the goats out of the wild onions as the milk will taste like onions!

I saw a flyer at a farm show which said "Retire in ten years raising dairy goats".

A farmer I keep bees on his land said they are hard to keep behind a fence and not to be alarmed when you see one on top of your new auto.

I saw one on top of a bee hive once! He said if you locate the leader and confine her the rest will stay in.

About all I know about goats! Keep us posted!
Good luck with goats!

Made cheese in school and did not seem rocket science.

[BubbaBob]

Thanks Rob. I already heard about the "hard to keep in" part. Someone told me that a fence that will hold goats will hold water...LOL

BubbaBob

[power napper]

We raised dairy goats for years, Alpines were our favorite breed and produce wonderful milk. Buy the book raising goats by "countryside" author keith belanger I think is a wonderful starter, the better feed the better the milk. You can not get good tasting milk from brush and weeds without supplementing the goats diet. Fresh water is a must and my wife even gave the goats hair cuts in hot weather. You need to trim the hooves to keep from having foot problems and if you own a billy goat the smell of its rutting oder is unmistakable---stinks a musky smell sort of reminescent of a skunk. Goat herd grow fast, real fast and we even ate the goat meat--did not like it though so made baloney and hot dogs from the meat. Made a lot of cheeses --easy to make--with hot pepper cheese my personal favorite. Have an old home made cheese press made out of one by twelve white oak boards that was used to make the cheese out of the curd. We fenced in around seven acres with six strands of high tensil steel fence electrified and still lost one of our best kid goat to a neighbors rotweiler. Goats do always get out of a fence, I lost all my fruit trees (goats ate the bark off) and shrubbery as well as the garden are prime targets for a meal. Had a maremma dog to protect the goats after that.The main reason we had goats was because our youngest child was alergic to cows milk. The herd grew to twenty four goats before we knew it. Always breed up to a better goat than you have, we did not have five star milkers but a goat dairy farmer bought some of our goats because they were such good milk producers with long lactation periods. Just like bee keeping goat keeping has a long learning curve, alfalfa hay--first cutting is the premium hay, we bought ours from a dairy farmer in six foot round bales, the alfalfa and a scoop of goat feed with high protein makes the milk sweet. Cleanliness and stainless steel milk handling equipment is a must. My wife made the best "goat milk fudge" in the world--my honest opinion. We spent freezing nights delivering kids, bottle fed some of them, wormed, gave shots, cleaned the manure from the pens and all those neceassary things that go with the pride of saying "I got goats". Enjoy the goats, we sure did enjoy ours.
Hope this helps.

[BubbaBob]

Thanks power napper. I'm trying to make a living off my itty bitty homestead, and I add one "new" thing every year. Last year was raising oyster and shiitaki mushrooms for the speciality market, this year is making handcrafted soap for the Atlanta BMW crowd, and I'm giving serious consideration to dairy goats next. Good goat cheeses bring around $18.00 a pound around here, and I figure 10 goats is 10 pounds of cheese a day.

Anyone with more info...it is appreciated.

BubbaBob

[David Stewart]

We've got two goats. Picked them up in trade for three roosters as weaned kids. Other than the winter birthing, I haven't seen anything posted that hasn't happened to me..Did you get the part about you can't build a fence strong enough? How about the smell on a Billy? Billy's are pretty hard on old barns also. What they can't eat, they tear apart with their horns. One point mentioned on those rascals (at least on mine) is that if you got within five feet of him, that was close enough for him to "mark" you. Had an aim like a ornery boy with a water pistol. The last straw was when I dropped a tool in the barn and didn't locate him before I bent over <edit: The phrase "randy as a billy goat" didn't just appear from thin air>...At that point, I tied him to the hitching post and cut his wheels off and he tamed down into a kids pet. Whethers are SO much easier to deal with. Also, they aren't picky on what they eat but their favorite food will be whatever your prize fruit tree or ornamental landscape planting is. I even had one eat one of those Wal-Mart shopping bags..Thought it would impact and kill him but it didn't even slow him down. Really HUGE side market for them in the meat producing arena. The Muslim faith observes some important holidays in June-July so the market for meat goats locally spikes with June young goat sales. That's a good outlet for your surplus young of the year males. We've really enjoyed having them around the place, I just need to put up some more fence and rotate them a little more.

David

[BubbaBob]

I know that you can actually keep them in a barn 24/7 and don't need acreage, but for the good of the goats you should probably have them "out". Is 10 goats per acre reasonable so long as you realize that they will need additional feed besides forage at that rate?

BubbaBob

[dcross]

They don't like getting rained on, or cold weather. Seriously wimpy about pain, supposedly they can (rarely) go into shock from an injection.

Gotta trim the hooves frequently, and seperate the bucks from the does when they aren't breeding. Re-introducing the bucks abruptly brings all the does into season at once, meaning all the kids come at once.

Up here it's a pretty seasonal thing, and breeding and milking them off-season can mean significantly higher prices.

Saanen's produce the most milk, but I don't know if other breeds have a higher cheese yield.

My buddy has a flock of pygmy's with some dairy blood, think slightly over-grown pygmy's, he sells adults for $50 a piece, grown on nothing but pasture and crud hay in the winter, to a co-worker who sells them to Hispanics and Hmongs for more than that.

[dcross]

http://homesteadingtoday.com/vb/

There's a forum you might find useful, if you find a better one, especially one aimed at commercial dairying, please let me know.

[Terri]

Some states allow you to sell your milk, and some do not.

If your state does NOT allow it, you might consider pygmy goats (pets), or perhaps using the milk to raise calves or other critters on. Or, you could check out the market for meat goats. OR, you could work up some recipes for goats milk soap to sell on-line.

Also, if some of your goats have horns and some do not, I have HEARD that they horned goats may bully the hornless ones. Or so I have been told.

[MichaelW]

We just started our goat herd last fall. We have Purebreed Nubians. If cheese is your main concern, the Nubian's have the highest fat content of the Dairy Goats. Nubian's are also considered a dual purpose breed for meat and dairy. So as one person I know is doing, you can have a herd of Nubian does and in addition to having Nubian bucks you can have one Boer buck to breed with some of your does for meat goats. The boar genes apparently give the nubians the extra kick to be a good meat producer. Definately visit some comercial operations before buying very many goats so you can see what thats like. My neighbors sheep operation is something to see when he has about 300 sheep in the spring. There are lots of avenue's to sell goats for meat and you will have lots of weather's that won't be benifical for a dairy operation, or if your looking to make money selling doe kids. We are keeping our first two weather's to use as pack goats. They get very large and people are using them now on goatpacking trips and put saddle's on them for the children. I'll try and sell the rest of our males either as bucks or weathers to people for pets, after that I guess its off to be eaten :(

We started with two does and a young buck. He's a pretty good buck compared to many stories I've heard. We let them all run together over a couple of acres and our milk dosen't taste funny. It tastes awsome. We do supplement her feed for nutrition. We have two kids about 4 months old. We put them up at night and get about a quart and a cup of milk in the morning from our first freshner. (Goatspeak for first year at haveing babies don't you know.) After her next birthing should should produce more. The kids are milking her all day so I don't know how much she is really producing.

In TN commercial Dairying is very difficult due to all the regulations and expensive equipment. Some states let you get away with selling unpasturized milk as pet food or under goat boarding. for goatboarding see beesource member ScottS 's http://www.slezakfarms.com/

Goats are fun, you can get all the milk you and your family can drink or make cheese from. It can also be very profitable, especially on the meat end in our region. I don't know alot about the comnercial dairy end, but a large upfront investment is necessary if you want to put your products into grocery stores. I would think cheese regulations would require the dairy regulations. Please let me know if that is not the case.

Also check out these picks of my goats. Sorry there isn't much useful information on my website yet, ...eventually. Click the links button for goat links I've been using. Woven wire stretched by hand on metal posts, lots of attachment points, and a hand stetched strand of bob wire above the fence top with 2-3 attachments between the fence and the bobwire. I fix up all the excape points with this formula and it is working well.

http://web.utk.edu/~wu4you/My%204%20Acres/m4a_goats.htm
click on "kids", in the left graphic for pics of our kids

10 goats per acre sounds good, We will probably end up stopping keeping does at 20 goats on our 2 acres of pasture. That seems very human and sustainable to me. My neighbor says we could easily have 50 goats running loose, but I think it would get pretty messy.

[Michael Bush]

If you plan on eating them, don't give them names. smile.gif And DEFINITELY don't lable the meat packages with their names. smile.gif

[Sundance]

Jesting aside........ Is there fencing that will keep them in?? I have about 3 acres of pasture I could put some livestock on and goats intrigue me. I love lamb. How does goat taste?? How much equipment $$ do you need to do goat cheese??

BB....... How are the mushrooms doing?? I have toyed with trying them.

[MichaelW]

Since I hate electric fencing I ruled it out when fencing my property. I use it to keep my dogs in their chain link and its always needing maintence like limbs falling on it, grass growing up into it and grounding it out. Plus it occasionally kills a song bird or two and I'm getting hit with the juice about as much as the dogs do.
So the best cheap/easy thing I've found is to buy the 330 foot X 5ft woven wire, metal T-posts and put sturdy wooden posts in corners. Roll the fence out and stetch and attach to posts by hand, I don't see a stretcher as necessary. Make lots of attachment points with cut electirc fence wire. When done, above the fence, run a strand of bob-wire, hand stretched as tight as you can. If I'm doing a quicky job, I just wrap it around each post and stretch between each post. Then attach the bobwire to the top of the fence in about 3places between each post. This gives the top of the fence some good support that is hard to achieve with perfect fence stretching (uneven terrain etc). Each post is less than 10 foot apart. Without the bobwire the goats routinely go over the woven wire. I don't have the bobwire up everywhere, I just go out and run it when they go over. We have alot of old fence too. Problem areas are where tree limbs are reachable when they can stand on the fence.

never eaten any, although I would consider it when we become over run with goats. home cheese making is cheap and easy. You can make yougurt in a thermos.

bubba bob, let us know what kind of money it'll take to sell cheese.

[BubbaBob]

Bruce, it's slow getting mushrooms going to the income stage...they are doing OK, just not fattening the bank account yet.

Michael, on the cheese thing...remember, everything I say is "book learnin'"...nothing hands on so far, but here goes...

I'm looking to have crosses between Alpines (high milk production) and Nubians (high butterfat content).

Here in GA you can just about forget selling goat milk legally for human consumption because of the strength of the dairy cow industry. They have rammed through ag regs that have such a low blood ppm standard in milk that goats simply cannot meet it, no matter how healthy.

Notice I said "legally" and for "human consumption".

Stay under the radar. Milk goes as "pet food" farm gate sales, labeled "Not For Human Consumption" ... it's none of my business what someone does with it after they buy it.

As for goat cheese, I have no idea how expensive it is to produce according to ag dept standards except that it is costly as all get out.

Again, stay under the radar with word of mouth advertising farm gate sales. Goat cheese goes for 15-22 a pound depending on variety, and you can sell all you can make.

Excluding milking equip (simple as pail, strainer, and teat care up to multi milkers...$50 to $5000), the needed equip to make farm cheese will set you back less than $200, includinf molds, additives, etc. Depending on butterfat content, a gallon of goat milk will make from 8 oz to 1 lb of cheese.

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

BTW, where in the "East Tenn Valley" are you?

BubbaBob

[iddee]

A few things I haven't seen on the thread. A kid billy goat will not wean itself until it is over 6 months old. It can and will breed back to its mother at 5 months. Be careful or the inbreeding will get out of hand. It is a large problem with goats.

I thought bucks and does were deer. Goats are nannys and billies.

Goat meat is 500+++ times better if cooked with sage.

If you have a lead goat taking them over or through the fence, cot a 2 3 inch diameter fork from a small tree with each of the forks about 18 to 24 inches long. Tie it like a collar with 2 forks up & one pointing down. This will hender, but not 100% prevent, escape. As said before, nothing works 100%. THEY WILL GET OUT.

Check your goats carefully before buying. Hermorphodites are common in goats and cannot breed.

[MichaelW]

BubbaBob I'm in Clinton, North of Knoxville and east of Oak Ridge.
I hadn't heard about the low blood ppm standards. It sucks that farmers make it so hard to farm. I think we can sell pet food here too. I don't see why not. I heard some states were going to crack down on the goat and cow boarding, but I don't see how they can enforce that. Alpines were my second goat choice. We went with the Nubians for priceing and avaliability. Now I'm apreciating the high fat content too, Yummy!
I'm interested in growing mushrooms but haven't had the time to pick up another new thing yet. Seems like a good crop for a small acerage farm. I like the one thing a year approach. Right now we are learning the basics and getting started in many things, I do want to make some money off farming stuff eventually. But until then, I'm enjoying all the great food and company.

I have a friend that sells purebreed nubian bucks in the spring for $50. However nubians are cheaper than alpines, so it might be benifical to buy nubian does and one alpine buck to breed your hybrids, unless of course you can get the crosses to start with, which might be the better alternative.

[BubbaBob]

What kind of production do you get from your Nubians? Alpines run real close to a gallon a day for a 305 day season. What do Nubian females go for up there? I'd drive up to pick up a small herd (5-10) if the price was right, and introduce the Alpine blood with a billy.

Mushrooms take a couple of years to get going well. I raise oysters in my 6 ft high crawl space under the house, and shiitake's on logs in my woods (guess I'll have to concentrate them in a smaller area to keep the goats away).

I do honey, mushrooms, handcrafted soap, stained glass, felted handbags and hats, beaded jewlery, turned wood art, jellies, marmalades, salsas, baked goods, homemade root beer and ginger beer, fried pork skins and boiled peanuts. I am planting 100 Doyle's Thornless Blackberry bushes this fall (20-30 gal per bush in 3 years at $10/gal), and raise 2500 starter tomato plants a year, along with a small market garden (30 ft x 200 ft) raising lettuce, cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, and radishes. Next year I add garlic and onions. I have 2 1/2 acres, all woods except that small garden spot, and hope to buy an additional adjacent acre in the next month for the blackberries and additional fruiting veggies that I don't have enough sun for now.

I market all the eats at the local farmer's market and a trailer mounted roadside stand, along with farm gate sales. The arts and crafts go in fall shows.

I'm losing some of the crafts (felted things and stained glass) because my girlfriend is moving out and going back to NY where she is from.

Oh yeah ... I forgot the 10 lbs/week of homemade beef jerky.

Now I want to add goat cheese ... if I keep this up I may actually make a living at it eventually. It's been tough with two people. I don't know how I'll do it by myself, but I'll figger sumpin' out.

BubbaBob

[power napper]

An easy soft cheese recipe--this is sort of a cream cheese texture that any one can make.
Start with a stainless pot of clean filtered milk with no hair, no dirt--good goats milk.
Heat the milk to 165 degrees farhenheit and take a bottle of lemon juice concentrate and dribble a steam (while stirring pot of milk)into the 165 degree milk--depending on how much heated milk you have it will not take long until you see the milk change from milk to curds and whey (it will look like floating cottage cheese). Immediately quit dribbling the lemon juice into the pot, when cool pour the curds and whey through a colander lined with a muslin cloth or a special cheese cloth that has a fine mesh, save the whey that passes through the cheese cloth for other things. The curd is now in your cloth inside the collander and you can just throw a piece of rope over the clothes line and tie the cloth with curd to the rope and let it drip, and drip until dry--at least a coupla hours. when you unfold the cloth after bringing back into the house it will be a clump of soft curd. (1) just add salt and taste--good (2) add salt and powder garlic and taste (3) add salt and freshly chopped hot peper and taste (4) add a chopped jar of drained pimento stuffed olives and taste. Now that you have tasted the first cheese you made, go and buy some more goats!!
Enjoy, we sure did.

[MichaelW]

I can't really say what my milk production is since I only seperate the kids from my milker overnight. I get a quart or more in the morning. Seems decent for a first freshener. She comes from a doe that supposedly produced up to 2 gallons a day. That doe was primarily Alchemy Acres blood. I bought two does (goats not deer) for $150 each from a milker turned vegan who was willing to get rid of a couple. One was his escape artist leader. Prices vary greately, the well known breeders charge alot, but good goats can be found elsewhere. Anyone with honest milking records should be considered for your venture. I know a girl that might reserve you some does in the spring, my buck is from her. His bloodline is on my webpage under agriculture>goats Her goats are usually cheap, but the main problem is getting her to let go of some! selling 5-10 animals at one time might convince her though. You would have to discuss milking expectations with her. PM me if you want her number.

Your diverse farming sounds like the direction I want to go! Arts and crafts are a direction I'm working in too. I'm building a toddler bed for my son using small walnut logs. People sell alot of goat milk soaps around here.

[iddee]

Bubbabob, If you are looking for small space and large profit, look at white rats and mice. I was raising 1000+ mice weekly in a 12 X 16 building. All auto. waterers, self feeders, the works. Used about 6 hours weekly. Pet shops pay from .50 to 1.00 each.
If you are interested, let me know and I'll give you more details.

[BubbaBob]

iddee, I'm always interested in looking at something new. Post what you know that might help (especially marketing info on mice) here or email me at bubbabob@ellijay.com or phone number is 706/692-7004. Thanks.

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

I personally like electric fencing, mainly due to cost.

Rolled wire with the 4x4 openings runs about 50 cents/ft for the wire alone. Add posts and other stuff and you can get into some real money just for 2-3 acres. I can do 5 wire fencing, run off 12 volt and a solar panel for around $300-350 total. I can't even come close to that with ANY other fencing.

BubbaBob

[David Stewart]

Where I live the field fencing isn't only for keeping the goats in....You might be surprised how many free ranging dogs/coyotes would love a go at your goats. Easy enough to take the offenders out most times but if your luck runs like mine, they would always get your best animal and by then it's little comfort. Fencing is a large part of your investment, but IMO it isn't the place to save a dollar.

My 2 cents,
David

[MichaelW]

Only electic fencing hasn't worked for goat people I have talked to. Some people use it in addition to woven wire. I think I remember someone getting high tensil electirc with the tape to work on a goat webboard. Shop around on woven wire 50 cents sounds high, can't remember what I paid. The Red Band 330' rolls of woven wire are the cheapest.

[dcross]

<<ag regs that have such a low blood ppm standard in milk that goats simply cannot meet it>>

Somatic cell count?

There's two tests out for that, goats will score MUCH higher on one than the other, it has to do with how their udder physically produces milk compared to a cow.

[Reptyle]

I'm still pretty new and don't post much but I've really come to enjoy visiting this forum. I hope, like BubbaBob, to one day own a few acres that I might live off of or at least supplement my income. I wanted to give a shout out and thank those of you who are willing to share your knowledge not only on bees but other useful information.

With that said, I thought I'd chime in on an area where I may be of use. (despite the fact that the wife claims I'm useless)

BubbaBob I believe iddee was referring to raising rats and mice to sell to pet stores as feeders. The reptile trade is booming and most of us who own reptiles as hobbyist may own a 100 or more at a time so we're in constant need of a supplier. Some of us will raise our own; others purchase theirs as they either don't have the time or the means to raise their own feed. One of the advantages of raising rodents is that you can even sell them frozen and ship them once your client base grows. Since you seem to have the marketing instinct you might try to find out if anyone around your area keeps birds of prey, since they demand food more often than reptiles. Zoos may buy your surplus if you have one in your area. This has gotten lengthy so I'll shut up now, but if I can help please let me know.

[BubbaBob]

Thanks reptyle...help/ideas are always appreciated.

Iddee was, indeed, talking about the pet food market. He and I talked on the phone, and he gave me some breeding ideas and pointed me toward www.kingsnake.com (http://www.kingsnake.com) as one way to market the mice. If you have any other ideas about where you snake folks look for food, or any other ways to move mice, I'd appreciate the info. If I start raising mice, what I don't want is to suddenly find myself with tens of thousands of the little buggers and nothing to do with them.

BubbaBob

[dcross]

<<tens of thousands of the little buggers and nothing to do with them.>>

A friend of mine is in that situation right now. Got a boa from the local shelter, and bought a few rats to provide food for it.

Two years later, he's traded rats for two or three more boas and they're still not eating fast enough:)

I like being able to trade honey for rat pups, and I don't have to deal with the stench. I'll take a billy goat in rut anyday.

[Reptyle]

Kingsnake.com is the place as far as reptiles on the web. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one on this forum that keeps reptiles.

Actually rats don't have too much of an odor, the mice are the worst for stinkers and gerbils have almost no odor compared to the other two. BubbaBob if you're worried about too many mice you can always get a snake or several and raise'em! Since this topic started out as goats you might be interested to know that some people purchase goats for their reticulated pythons, anacondas and burmese pythons, so you can sell those as well.

[BubbaBob]

Hey Michael...thanks for putting me in touch with Andi. I just got off the phone with her and I bought 6 goats ... all purebred Nubians ... 2 2 yr old milkers, one yr old doe ready for first breeding, two 4 month doelings, and a young buck that has already "proven himself".

Now I've just gotta find someone to loan me a trailer.

Oh my goodness ... what have I done...

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

Awsome! Welcome to the goat business. I see lots of milk in your future :D You're gonna be Rrrreal busy getting set up, but you won't regret it.

[BubbaBob]

Yep....rrrreeeaaaaalllll busy for a while...

1000 ft of fence to put up, a 12x16 shelter to build, milking parlor, watering tank, couple of hundred pounds of feed and a couple of round bales of hay to get...all by friday evening...oh my...

BubbaBob

[Sundance]

Good luck BB...... keep us posted.

[dcross]

<<a couple of round bales of hay >>

Careful how you feed them, if you just put'em in the pen, the goats will eat out the middle, and the top could fall and crush one.

[ScottS]

Sorry I'm getting in late on this one. My wife and I run a small but rapidly growing (!) goat dairy.

We use just electric to keep our goats in. Check out the portable woven electric nets sold by Premier 1 (google it). Given them a call too, they raise Boers behind electric.

Making cheese is exhorbitantly expensive, at least in MI. Grade A milk parlor, dedicated cheese kitchen, etc. Some friends set up a facility for $100k. Granted it was pretty big, but the facilities and equipment requirements are the same regardless of your size. Unless you've got a structure in place with a concrete floor grade to a drain, or you've got a LOT of money burning a hole in your pocket, I wouldn't even try.

We're finding just doing the milk end of things to be plenty profitable (and time consuming).

[BubbaBob]

Scott, thanks for the info...and a couple of questions:

Electric netting...do I need to go that far, or will 5 wire (3 hot, 2 ground) do with the spacing, starting at the ground, 6", 6", 8", 8", and 8", for 36 high total. If breed matters, I got all Nubians yesterday, and today added an Alpine doe.

Also on electric fence...I've always used a Gallagher B60 (.6 Joules) for bear fencing around hives, and I have a few extra B60's laying around. Gallagher says use minimum B160 (1.6 Joules) for goats as the small hoofprint makes getting a good ground difficult. If I alternate hot and ground wires, why do I need worry about foot grounding?

As to regs on milk/cheese sales, GA is tough. Like you said, 100K investment for milk sales...for human consumption. It's only $75 for a state ag dept pet food producer permit, and you have to label it "Pet Food - Not for Human Consumption" ... then it's none of my business if the customer drinks the "pet food" after getting it home.

Cheese, oddly enough, does not require Grade A dairy permitting if it is AGED cheese, and aged properly. Soft, fresh cheese is like milk...fly under the radar.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

We raise/show/milk registered Lamancha Dairy Goats.

We started with Nubians got Lamanchas then Alpines...we found out rather quickly that we didn't care for the Nubian temperment nor the agressiveness in some of the Alpines.

Lamanchas have butterfat equal to Nubians with a wonderful dairy temperment.

If you are going for high butterfat then you need to go with Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats, they are a true minature dairy goat.

We have 4 ft tall square horse fence...our goats NEVER get out. The only way ours get out is if someone has left a gate open, which is a rare thing thankfully!

The proper terminology for dairy goats is does, bucks and wethers (castrated bucks). Most dairy goat people don't use the slang terms since it gives negative impressions with the general public.

www.adga.org (http://www.adga.org) is the National Dairy Goat Association and their website has quite a bit of info as well. Also there are individual breed websites www.lamanchas.com (http://www.lamanchas.com) is the Lamancha Dairy Goat website.

Also another favorite site, containing tons of Lamancha breed history http://www.goatsleap.com/info.html


Now about general health:

Goats require clean water and minerals year round. Minerals that are kept up off the ground, if it gets dirty they won't eat it. Our goats prefer loose minerals. A good dairy mineral with sufficient copper is a must. Copper and Selenium deficiency can be a big issue with goats...avoid anything labeled for sheep. Copper is toxic to sheep therefore won't work for goats, who need large amounts.

If you can't find a good dairy mineral, Purina 12:12 horse mineral is better than nothing. Avoid the Purina goat mineral..it has way to much salt and goats don't care much for it.

Crystalyx has some excellent goat products out also. http://www.crystalyx.com/other/index.cfm

We use the mineral/protein lick and ours do very well on it. We also keep out baking soda year round (replace when it gets wet/dirty)....you can buy it in 25 and 50 lb bags from most feed stores. This helps buffer the rumen just like when you get indegestion. Goats are good about 'self medicating' if you provide what they need.

Another extremely important issue with goats is worming. Parasites are death to goats. You need to find a local goat breeder (most vets are clueless about goats) and ask them about your specific area. Some areas need to worm once a month, others less often. Also you will need to learn what wormers to use..again talk to a local (knowledgeable) goat person and ask them.

It's a good idea to keep certain medications on hand. Procaine Penicillian G, LA200, Banamine, Therabloat, Fastrack, Epinephrine (a must), Mineral Oil, Vet Wrap, Yellow Spray/paste, Wormer, Coccidia treatment.

Coccidia can be death to goats. Find out what the local goat people do for coccidia treatment/prevention. We use deccox M in the milk when bottle feeding and feed with deccox prevent in the grain on young stock. Adult stock should not have coccidia problems..if they do it's generally a management issue.

Shelter...goats can't handle being wet/cold. This turns quickly into pneumonia and a goat that is stressed ends up with a shut down rumen, which ends up with a dead goat.

Another thing to keep in mind are the new Scrapie Laws going into effect. Tattoos are allowed to be used in lieu of ear tags but each state can make up their own rules also. Check with your state vets office.

There are 3 major goat diseases that are the most concern:

CAE (caprine arthritis encephlytis) A manageable disease however most end up with a hard udder that produces no milk...kinda a problem in dairy goats.

CL (caseous lymphadenitis) The WORST goat disease out there, not manageable and will infect your whole herd, highly contagious and the disease can live in soil and on wood for around 2 years...and can be contagious to humans.

Johnnes The wasting disease found in dairy cattle is also found in goats...this can be particularly an issue because there have been links found between infected cow milk and Chrones disease in humans.

Blood tests indentify all 3. WSU (Washington State University) is the leading research and disease center for goats. They can test blood for all 3 diseases. There are other labs out there but unfortunately most don't have the same test for CAE and are only 50 percent accurate for, as opposed to 95 percent or higher accurate at WSU.

Feed...we feed around 16 percent protein feed mix with low molasses (can bind up B vitamins and cause rumen acidosis) and a alfalfa/grass mix hay.

You are probably on overload with all the info so I'll stop now smile.gif


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

LaRae, thanks for all the info. I already knew it, but you just reinforced that I have a steep learning curve ahead of me. Some of what you posted I was had already learner, some I was aware of but had not studied up on, and some was totally new...just makes me more aware that I have a lot to learn.

Especially thanks for the "medicine kit" to keep handy. I have seen some lists on what to keep around, always, for kids, but that's the first all around kit I've seen.

Anything else you think a rank beginner might find useful to know I'd appreciate. Thanks.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Another thing...start small, resist the urge to get into multiple breeds or double the size of your herd within the first year or so. It can get overwhelming fairly quick...and of course the more animals the more everything (feed, meds, expenses)...also it is a stressor to bring in several new animals at one time into an established herd...goats are herd animals and generally have a well established pecking order.

Also new animals should always be quarantined until you determine their health status, unless you already have had tests done.

I also keep OB gloves, 'goat puller', surgical soap, sharp knives/scapels around. We do 95 percent or more of our own vet work, most goat people here do simply because there aren't really any 'goat' vets.

Also have a plan on what to do if you have a 'bad' kidding or severe injury/health problem ...how will you dispose of carcasses....are you able to put an animal down. You probably aren't going to keep all the offspring...Nubians are notorious for large numbers of kids in one birth (3 and 4 is common)...so start now looking for a meat market etc.

I also keep Lutalyse and Dexamethazone around. Lute is for inducing abortion in accidental breedings and also to induce labor (the Dex is used in conjunction with the Lute)...I've never had to induce labor...but I have used Lute to abort after a kid was accidently bred.

Another good thing to have is Fortified Vit B Complex...this is really a must have. Don't get just regular B ...get the Fortified Complex. It will come in handy to stimulate a goat and also good for Thiamine Deficiency. I also keep injectable ADE, BoSe (selenium) on hand too.

If you get in a pinch you can always use live culture yogurt in place of fastrack (it's the best product out there for helping out rumen inbalances..or if they are 'off' feed.

Invest the 12.00 and buy a real glass vet thermometer. In the case of Polio vs Listerosis it's a must have...Polio has not temp...Listerosis does. Another website:

http://www.jackmauldin.com/diseases.htm

We have does that milk up to 2900+ lbs per year. Our butterfat runs around 3.5 to 4 average. Feed can of course alter butterfat...more on feed:

We use a 18 percent dairy pellet made for goats (Kent Feeds here in the midwest) as the base, then we do 'add ins' of black oil sunflower seeds, alfalfa pellets (the hay we have doesn't have much alfalfa in it right now), Crimped Barley and Beet Pulp.

We do feed an additional mineral. North Atlantic Sea Kelp. It runs 35.00 for 50 lbs. Excellent for reproductive health and overall health..source of iodine which helps regulate the thyroid. All minerals/baking soda is fed free choice year round.

We do some AI, we have our bucks collected each fall...the semen processors can usually tell who uses Kelp and who doesn't based on sperm quality.

After all is said and done...goats are hardy animals...really! We have adult animals (one is 6 yrs) who have NEVER had antibiotics. I rarely use them. The worst we generally see is a respitory infection now and then.

Another important factor is over crowding, a cause of many health problems. You gotta provide enough land ...or if you have really too many for your acerage..then you have to more intensely manage your herd.

Definately try to find a local goat person you can rely on for help...this saved me..still does if I run into a problem...now when I say local...I mean within the state...the closest knowledgeable goat breeder is 2 hours from me..if you can find one closer even better!

Of course you are always welcome to email me for help/advice...I'll help if I can.

prantersacres@tri-lakes.net

Jeffers, PBS Livestock, Caprine Supply and Hoeggers Goat Supply are a good place to find items you need that you might not be able to find locally. They all have websites too.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Whew!!! LaRae, I think you and I will be communicating quite a but...LOL.

Hoeggers is about an hour and a bit south of me and seems to have everything...though one goat lady close by said their prices were high and Jeffers had everything too with much better pricing. I'll have to see if it's worth it to use Jeffers after figuring in shipping...

Again, thanks for all the info...I'm sure you, and the rest that have given me pointers, will be hearing from me regularily until I get up to speed.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

LOL I like talking goats!

Hoeggers/Caprine Supply are higher, but they carry some goat specific items you can't get other places at times.

Jeffers and PBS Livestock are great for meds and misc stuff. Things like Fastrack you have to buy from a local source or find a online dealer to buy from.


Best of Luck!!! Have fun!

Oh I make some soft cheese, mostly for us but I sell a little too, also sell fluid milk, to locals...Missouri's laws are pretty relaxed about it.


LaRae

[Joel]

lets not foget about ferrier work, billy's standing on the car hood and has there ever been a kid born during the day? I have a friend who keeps goats and all I can say is he makes me glad I keep bees!

[MichaelW]

bubba bob, how was the goat pickup, did you get them?

Here's some too late advise. Build just the basics to get started. Just get them a simple, but very sturdy, pen built. 30 X 30 is plenty big. You can build your large fence later. Its nice to have a holding pen anyway to seperate animals or keep them close to trim hoofs or whatever. Put a tarp up for them. Its plenty warm enough to build your shelter later. Roll in a big roll of hay and add grain slowly, you don't want them to get bloat if they haven't been eating alot of grain. Keep the goat mineral free choice. If you have a milker, you need that milking stand pronto for cooperation. I milk in the rain as my milking parlor isn't built after almost a year. If the kids are nursing, you won't be able to milk without seperating or tapeing teets.
Thats pretty much the basics to get started.

[BubbaBob]

I don't pick them up until Thursday...and she offered one more that I'm going to get. That makes 2 milkers 2 years old (Nubians), 1 milker 2 years old (Alpine), 1 never bred 1 yr old doe (Nubian), 2 doeling kids 4 mos old (Nubian), and 1 year old Nubian buck.

I've just about finished fencing an acre with 7 strands of electric (top 2 wires yet to run tomorrow), and am building a 12x16 three sided shelter for the does, a 5x5 doghouse for the buck, and a milking stand and stanchion tomorrow.

I've ordered the basics of what I need for milking from Hoeggers, I've ordered milk jugs for retail from International Plastics, and I'm ordering a good basic kit of medicines tomorrow (who has best meds pricing?).

I cross fenced 1/4 acre for the buck, and both paddocks have been plumbed with troughs fed through a float switch.

What have I forgotten to do that I need to do before I pick them up?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

I'd say Jeffers or PBS livestock will have the best prices on meds....they both have websites I think.

Make sure you reinforce that buck pen. You'd be real surprised how high they can jump or what they will climb or go thru to get to a doe in heat.

Get your minerals and you can get mineral feeders from Jeffers (black square plastic 2 compartment types) that you can attach to a wall or fence (depending on the fence)....just make sure you can clean it out when it gets dirty/wet.

Also...how are you going to feed hay? Racks or ?

Have you decided yet if you are going to use anything to wipe down the udders prior to and after milking?

We preferred the wal-mart brand anti-bacterial baby wipes and Fight Bac spray.

We were on milk test a couple years so we know our somatic cell counts....the first year we used wipes and fight back....then the next year we used nothing...and had no change in counts.

We've never had a case of mastitis...which can run genetically as much as anything else.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

I would only add, if you've never milked an animal get Andi to show you how. Its harder to figure out on your own than you would think. I fidled with my goat's teets for 2 weeks before a friend of mine came over and showed me how to do it. How emarassing! After doing it once its a piece of cake. If your goats kick when milked you'll need a goat hobble. I just tie her ankles to the stand but the hobble looks easier and more effective.

I'm still uncertain on the electric fence for honery nubians. A small, sturdy paddock would be good just in case. You'll use it eventually anyway. Plus you can use it to confine them the first few days and let them know where home is. And get to know the food source (you). The buck dosen't need to be seperated right away as its too hot for goats to go into heat, so he could spend a few days in the small padocks too. My paddock is attached to their main pasture, so they can use it when they arent confined, and I can move them to it quickly when I need to. Like when they get out and I don't have time to fix fence.

Went to our local fair goat show this weekend. It was great to see all those different goats. There were some nubians with cow sized udders :eek: We only sat through the Alpine judgeing, I like those Alpines too.

[LaRae]

Oh please don't think it's too hot for goats to cycle!!! I have some cycling right now and it's been over 100 for days!!

Nubians are notorious for cycling early in the season. Boer goats (meat) will actually breed year round!

Cow sized udders are nice if they are well attached, and porportional...hate to see them hanging on the ground with poor attachments. Also have to keep in mind some 'udder up' their does prior to a show to make them appear more 'milky'.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Well thats good to know, we are wanting to have breedings at different times of year to keep a year round milk supply. So far we're accomplishing that by letting them all run together. We are expecting some kids any day. I've herd the La Mancha's can be milked for a year or longer before having to breed again, is that true? The goats at the show were show goats, no floor dragging there. As you know the mammary system is very important in ADGA shows. What is 'udder up'? I noticed they had prolonged milking and some where leaking a bit. The judge was critical of leaky teets.

[LaRae]

Also bucks usually start into rut in July and August depending on where you live (I'm in the midwest).

The only time we run our bucks in with the does is during winter after everyone is bred. Bucks have their own aroma and this can cause your milk to be 'off' flavor as well. Agressive bucks will harass does even when they aren't cycling.

If you have an agressive buck I'd never run him with the does...even during winter, too much risk for abortion.


LaRae

[LaRae]

Any good milker, meaning good milk genetics, you should be able to milk for up to two years without re-breeding. I know people with Lamanchas who do this...we personally don't. The does will have a natural slack period but you have to keep milking right thru it and they will slowly build back up to (hopefully) a reasonable production amount.

The big drawback to summer kids is they are hit very hard with coccidia and parasites and many times don't seem to grow as well as early kids. So be agressive in prevention practices with summer kids.

Yes mammary systems is 35 pts I believe on the score card. We've had multiple best udder in show and best doe in show.

Ok uddering up is 'bagging' a doe. Instead of milking her at normal 12 (roughly) hour intervals they bag them for 14, 16, 18 or whatever hours to fill up the mammary. This causes distended udders and at some point the teats will leak.

Judges should be very critical of this practice.

You can have does who have large orifices in their teat that leak milk even when not bagged up...this is not a good trait to have as it allows bacteria to enter into the open orifice, which in turn can end up with mastitis.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

How does one "udder up" a doe? It's as big as it is...isn't it?

As for udder/teat cleaning before milking, I'm trying to decide between something commercially available or, as Fias Co Farm's web site says, use highly diluted bleach water.

I'm not taking any chances on accidental breeding...though I'd like to see that 1 yr old virgin producing milk ASAP. On the other hand, breeding now means freezing my rear off at my (and her) first kidding. No thanks.

I think I've got the fence good enough to keep goats in, dogs out, and boys and girls separated. 7 wire, alternating hot and ground (4 hot, 3 ground) and running a 2 joule energizer, top wire 46 inches off ground.

My brain is on info overload, but I gotta keep plugging away with them gonna be here in 4 days...and yes, I plan to have Andi show me how to milk.

A milking question...rather than spend a hundred bucks on a stanchion, I'm gonna build one tomorrow. It looks like about 15 bucks worth of 2x4 and lag bolts and an hours work. The question...the opening, when closed/locked looks to be about 4 ". Is that correct, and if not, how wide is right?

More questions later tonight.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

My husband made my first milk stand out of scrap lumber. He found plans out of a goat book I had.

Well...4 inches might be ok, it's going to depend on the size of your goats too. Some are bigger bulkier animals..so you might do a rough measure of your largest doe.

I do have a metal stand that collapses for taking to shows...a must have for me. Also your local FFA group (here at least) will build anything you want if you pay for materials and provide the plans.

Ah yes such fun to have does kidding in 20 degree weather and then have the kids ears freeze off....there are advantages to Lamanchas <G> and their short flat ear!

Are you going to have a separate kidding area too?

A friend of mine uses the diluted bleach without problem...just have to watch for any does who might be sensitive or irritated by it, especially after first kidding when the teats are sore.

The best thing for chapped udders is either Miracle Foot Cream (walmart) or something like udder butter...but I only use it when necesary, not all the time.

Now about the 'uddering up' no it's not as big as it is....the skin of the mammary is stretchy...a few days after she kids and her milk comes in you'll see what I mean. A doe that is raising her kids will never have a full udder since the kids eat small amounts several times a day.

If you pull kids at birth, once the colostrum is gone then you will see the mammary fill and get very full tight...some does need to be milked before 12 hours until they get into their lactation curve...around 30 days they tend to level off some. Health, feed, weather etc all effect milk prodcution...right now with it so hot my does are off a little in production but you shouldn't see large drops. A large drop in production should alert you to figure out why.

When you show you want the mammary to be full enough for the judges to see the rear udder and the mammary should be full...but not tight (you'll hear judges say the doe doesn't have much texture or she's over uddered)...some people get carried away and their animals will be barely able to walk around the mammary system...it's a terrible practice and painful.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

We saw some waddeling, full goats.
I measured my goat's neck for my stand, yes they are easy to build. Scrap lumber is a great resource! I'm at work, looking at a ruler, 4 inches seem small maybe it was 5, I would have to measure to be sure. I think 4 would work, its at least close. Andi's goats are about the same size as my does. Something adjustable might be desirable to trim hoofs.

Are off flavors more noticable when making cheese? So far everything tastes like milk, except for one time when I was handling the buck, washed my hands, then milked. He ruined the milk.

[LaRae]

Hmmm well milk should never smell off or goaty or bucky....goat cheese does have a 'tang' to it..but it shouldn't be 'off'.

Goat milk is more fragile than cow, has higher sugar content so bacteria form faster...really important to milk and chill as soon as possible and I wouldn't let it sit in the fridge for days and days and then make cheese out of it either.

Here's a simple home-made mastitis test. Take equal parts dawn dish soap and raw fresh goat milk and swirl (don't stir) them together in a bowl or dish....there shouldn't be any geling or thickening of the mix...if it gels or thickens then you have a bacteria problem either with the goat or how the milk was handled.

You can buy a CMT kit for around 25 or 30 dollars...but it won't tell you anything more than the dish soap and milk test.

LaRae

[LaRae]

Oh here's a tick for getting off the buck smell.

Get a cheap bag of sugar....put it in a bowl or something you can get your hands in. Stick your hands into the bowl of sugar and scrub them...then wash as usual.

Also goat milk soap is good at removing buck smell. Caprine Supply or Hoeggers makes a soap specifically for removing buck odor.

LaRae

[MichaelW]

4 inches for the slot in my "keyhole" milking stand. I skipped the hole and just used 2 parallel 2X4s. The feed pan half way up. The top has a hinged 2X4 with lag bolts for pivot and latch.

[BubbaBob]

Hey Michael, if you are still up...I'm meeting Andi in the morning (Friday) at 10AM at the Tractor Supply store in Maryville...come on by and we'll have a cup of coffee.

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

Sorry I missed you, I usually only check the board at work, probably would have come out. So how are they?
Our milker came down with some bad diarrea (scours) likely due to worms, as our neighbor and others told us. I gave them all Safegaurd to deworm and she started eating again and acting better. Then I read on Fiasco Farms that it dosen't work very well, another local agreed and said to use Ivamec. So I dewormed them all again with Ivamec and stopped milking her since she's pretty knocked down by the worms, and then theres witdraw times. I had dewormed with Safeguard before so perhapse it dosen't work. I will probably eventually get a microscope to check for worms and honeybee tracheal mites, and other fun stuff.
Our other senior does' kids are due any time so hopefully she will make a good milker. I think she will as she has had kids before and her udder is more developed. I'll definately have to watch the new babies for worms.

[LaRae]

Safeguard is generally useless in goats execept for treating tapeworms.

Also if you have liver flukes in your state it wouldn't hurt to use Ivomec Plus.

Here we dose them 1 cc per 50 lbs for Ivomec injectable and 1 cc per 20 lbs for Valbazen (oral)....doseages may vary depending on the area you live in too.

Also keep in mind coccidia, especially in young goats during hot weather....wouldn't hurt to have them on a coccidia prevention program.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Thanks LaRae,
Do you do the 3, 6, 9 weeks of age preventative? What do you use to treat?
I'm finding the Fiasco Farms health pages more and more useful
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm
There just north of here so things should relate well.

[LaRae]

Well Missouri may well be different than TN. We do have a hot humid climate...and humidity year round (I'd think colder winters though).

When we bottle feed we pull kids at birth and then at a week or two of age (depending on time of year) we add Deccox-M powder to their milk until weaned.

After weaning we feed a goat feed (pellet) with deccox in the pellet, until they are around 6 months of age (generally fall)...we don't grain in winter, unless a specific goat has a need for it...not even preg does get grain...just a good quality grass hay, until shortly before kidding.

We don't feed adults anything with deccox in it.

If you are dam raising then it's hard to get deccox in the kids until they are eating grain good (generally a month or so of age).

Having kids as early in the year as possible will help alot too. We prefer not to have any kids born after the end of Feb...but early March seems to be ok too...by the time the hot weather hits they are off to a good enough start that the deccox feed takes care of things.

Now if your kids have coccidia (fecal test)...then you want to use something like Albon (or generic Albon, called Di Methox) and drench it for 4 days.

I avoid using Co-rid medication...it strips the body of B, you have to be really careful when using it.

LaRae

[MichaelW]

Yea we're dam raising. Its just easier for what we are doing. Plus there's the antibodies from momma. I'll probably drench something like Albon. I'll have to see whats avaliable at the co-op. Do you just do it for the 4 days, or do you repeat the treatment later on? I'm noticing the packages of livestock drugs usually don't have any goat information on them.
This doe aborted kids earlier this year and we let her re-breed. Thats why they are so late. I think this will naturally push her next breeding late again this fall. Just a guess.
Thanks for the info smile.gif

[LaRae]

As you have discovered most everything is 'off label' for goats. You can't go by sheep doseages either most of the time.

I only treat for Coccidia when I know I have coccidia (fecal test at the vet)...fortunately we rarely have problems with it.

Albon is very expensive...so we use Di-Methox (Jeffers Supply) instead...it's identical to it.

I mix 1.5 tablespoons of Di-Methox powder to 1/2 cup of water.

I drench 15 cc's per 50lbs the first day, then 7.5 cc's per 50 lbs the next 3 days or even 4 won't hurt.

Since you are dam raising hopefully you don't have any CAE or CL positive animals.

Generally dairy does cycle the same time deer do. Here it's late summer or early fall, although there are exceptions...and many times the first heat cycle is not a true heat.

Since we don't have a commerical dairy we only breed does once a year, in Sept/Oct usually.

Any worming you need to do, be sure you do it 2 weeks prior to worming or a month after breeding when using Ivomec and other wormers...they can cause deformities and abortion also.

We try not to worm or medicate any doe that is bred unless it's absolutely necessary.

Do you know why the doe aborted?


LaRae

[MichaelW]

"Do you know why the doe aborted?"

No, My only guess is she ate something poisonous.

I don't like to treat for something I don't see either. This was the first deworming for my 4 month olds and I didn't do any Coccidis prevention, but from what you are saying about summer kids and our recent worm outbreak, I think I probably should do a preventative on these new ones. Thats another reason I want to get a microscope, so I can only deworm when I observe worm infestations, hopefully before a doe gets sick. I was hopeing to not have to worry about worms. My neigbor hasn't dewormed for years with no problems, I guess his goats have gotten used to them or something. Or perhaps my goats brought them in.
No CAE has been observed in the two herds I bought from so I think the benifits of dam raising outweighs the CAE prevention, for us anyway.

[iddee]

WOW, I'm getting old. When we had goats, you carried a pack of chewing tobacco and fed each one a golfball size chunk when you thought it needed it. A spoon of hardwood ashes in a pint of feed every month .
No worms, no vet bill. Times sure have changed.

[BubbaBob]

I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed myself...but that first glass of cold goat's milk, 10 minutes ago, sure was good.

Onward and upward...or something like that...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Do you have posionous plants in their field?

It's a rare thing to find goats that don't have problems with worms. The only breed I'm aware of who has little to no trouble with worms are the Myotonics (Fainting Goats)...they are extremely worm resistant.

Having a microscope is an excellent idea, I have friends who do their own fecals as well. Also keep in mind that just because there are worms present doesn't mean they need to be wormed...will depend on the actual worm load and the condition of the goat as well.


Iddee when you have does milking 3000 lbs of milk a year, you aren't worming them with tobacco and hardwood ashes.

LaRae

[LaRae]

Bob hang in there...you'll get it down!


LaRae

[iddee]

LaRae, When I had goats, they sold for 3 dollars each and produced a quart of milk a day. Times have changed. LOL

[MichaelW]

$3! My neigbor is kicking himself for getting rid of various rare pure breed goats and sheep some time back. Of course he never bothered keeping up with papers anyway. The goat market has really exploded. meat, milk, and collectors.

[BubbaBob]

Well, I'm discovering things already...for example:

There is a reason store bought milking stands are only 20" wide, rather than 35" like the one I built...if she's a bit shy about being milked, it keeps the goat from putting too much distance between you and her when milking.

Goat hobbles are not a fru fru thing to get more money out of the goat man by the supplier. They keep the goat's feet out of the milk pail.

A 5 month old buck is a real trial at keeping in his pen, despite the electric fence wire being 6" apart. The does stay away from the electric, but so far he is just ignoring it and scampering right through.

A standoffish goat gets REAL friendly when you have a bucket of sweet feed in your hand.

More later.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Bob if I had a kicker she'd be gone asap.

There are too many goats out there with good dairy temperment to have to put up with that.

I've never had to hobble a goat to milk and I never will either.

You need to get cattle panels with t-posts and then hot wire the top.

Iddee I'd say that was a ways back!!!


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Ha! I've tossed a few pails of poop, trampled goat milk. You should see my first milking stand, its more like a dinner table. I turned it into a chicken tractor.

[BubbaBob]

LaRae, if I knew what the heck I was doing I'd prolly be like you about the kicking, but seeing as it was the first goat (or cow for that matter) I've ever milked, it was prolly not the best expirience for her...LOL.

I prolly squeezed too hard.

Besides, she didn't exactly kick...just sorta a high step and her foot landed in the pail...three times. Once I got the hang of it she calmed down.

Now I gotta figger a way to keep the others from wanting on the stand, and their mouth in the feed, while I'm milking one goat. I'm thinking narrowing the stand so there isn't as much room will help.

Dang that milk was good...kinda like the first honey my bees ever let me sample.

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

My doe kicks, but it dosen't matter. You just hobble her, give her plenty of feed and go on about your business. When its done its done and the milk tastes the same. Cracked corn is best in this situation since it takes longer to eat. Takes about 7 seconds to tie her ankles.

I built a mini-fence around the front of the stand to keep the kids from eating and I bring the doe into the smaller padock to keep the big goats from getting on the stand. The milking parlor is rising on my priority list. Actually it will just be a corner of my workshop with its own entrance. Fighinting off the chickens and rain is becoming a pain too.

[BubbaBob]

OK...I've had the goats a couple days...now the stupid questions start.

Hay. I know to keep stored hay dry, but what about hay I've put in a rack to feed? Does it (the rack) have to be under the shed, or is out in the open OK? Do goats insist on dry hay?

I've kinda got the hang of milking...or do I? I've been told I should (eventually) milk a goat in 3-5 minutes by hand...not even close so far. Looks like each squirt will maybe fill a thimble. A half gallon per goat, morning and evening, so far is looking like an all day job. When am I supposed to make and sell the cheese?

Speaking of cheese, I got "Cheesemaking Made Easy" and boy is that book misnamed. She may know how to make cheese, but the author doesn't know squat about passing that information along via the written word. Any other good, understandable books on farmstead cheesemaking?

More stupid questions later...gotta go milk another goat...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Generally if hay gets sopping wet they don't like it and you might have alot of waste.

If you use round bales with a ring, tarp the top of the ring.

We use square bales so I put out enough hay for one or two days at a time...and if I know it's gonna rain then I just put out enough that they will clean it up pretty soon.

I've been milking for several years now and I don't always milk one out in 3 to 5 minutes. How fast you milk is going to depend on manual dexterity, teat size, orifice size, cooperation of the goat and amount she milks.

You should be getting a nice good stream of milk with each squeeze (don't pull)...let the teat fill with milk then squeeze it out...there's a definate rythym to it.

You might look into one of the email groups on yahoo...just do a search on cheese making.


LaRae

[iddee]

You'll get the hang of it eventually. As I said before, as a kid, I only got a pint per milking, or a quart per day. Didn't take long.
As a 12 year old kid I could strip a gallon from a cow in 3 to 5 minutes, and direct a stream into your mouth at 15 feet, so I'm sure you will improve as time goes on.

[BubbaBob]

Now I smell like goat...was resting on the milking stand when a downpour came up...thunder and all. All of a sudden all seven goats decided I was their best friend and wanted in my lap...that's all seven WET goats...

[LaRae]

Be glad it was does and not bucks wanting in your lap!

LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Now I smell like goat...was resting on the milking stand when a downpour came up...thunder and all. All of a sudden all seven goats decided I was their best friend and wanted in my lap...that's all seven WET goats...

BubbaBob

[iddee]

LMAO. Welcome to farmlife. It's even more fun when one of the kickers lands one solidly in the center of your LAAAAAAAAAP.

[BubbaBob]

This keeping goats for fun and profit may actually work out. So far 12 lbs, 10 oz of feta made, 12 lbs, 2 oz sold at $1.25/oz.

Gotta get more goats...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

LOL oh boy....I've heard that before!

Congrats!!!

Just don't get too big too soon..many a person has done that and ended up loosing their shirt when they over produced the demand. It's better to keep people waiting a little, then to have no one buying.

Some people I know out in CA have been making/selling artisan goat cheeses for years and years. http://www.goatsleap.com/cheese.html

LaRae

[BubbaBob]

LaRae...you got the book "Home Cheesemaking"?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Ummmm I don't think so....I have had more success getting receipes from other goat people....but I have heard of that book.

I don't make any hard or cured cheeses...just soft ones like Cherve, Fresh, Feta, Farmer style, Monzerella etc. Some of them take rennet others use a culture.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

It's the "bible" of home cheese making supposedly...by Rikki Carroll, the founder/owner of New England Cheesemakers Supply.

I'm going to make some Soft Goat Cheese tomorrow...the book specifically says not to use PVC pipe for molds as it isn't food safe. That doesn't make sense to me...PVC pipe in for potable plumbing...you see any reason not to use 4"PVC with holes drilled as molds?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Hmmmm I have no idea about pvc pipe..perhaps there are issues within the product itself, the chemicals used to make it??

I'd do more research on it before I used it if I were you.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

If the chemicals used were an issue it seems it wouldn't be used for plumbing for drinkable water.

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

I've been surprised at the yeild...I'm running about a pound and a half of cheese per gallon of milk...I was expecting about a pound per gallon...pleasant surprise.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

I think it all depends on your proteins/solids in the milk. Higher protein is a good thing.

You can always send a milk sample to a lab to get exact figures on protein, fat, bacteria etc.

On the pvc pipe..maybe something in the cheese reacts badly with the pvc??

I have used plastic cheese molds but they are food grade plastic.

LaRae

[MichaelW]

PVC is only safe for water when it is buried or under the house where sunlight can't break it down. I'd say they are suggesting the PVC will break down using it as a cheese mold, from light and maybe the cheese bacteria. PVC has some very bad carcinogentics in it. Due to the risk of cancer and specific instructions not to do it, I would find something else.

Glad to hear things are working out! If I ever get over that way I would like to check out your farm to think about doing diverse for profit ventures too. Taking it easy right now though. Getting about a dozen eggs a day. Free range eggs is some easy production. Go out and fill the feeder. Come back later and gather a dozen free range chicken eggs!

[BubbaBob]

I thought about free range eggs, as they bring about 4-5 bucks a doz around here, but there are too many predators...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Get Great Pyrneese or Akbash Livestock guardian dogs Bob.

We live in a high predator area (bobcat, fox, Mtn Lion, weasels, coons, possums etc etc)...hardly ever loose a chicken and never lost a goat.


LaRae

[TX Ashurst]

I have heard that if you get a donkey to keep with your goats, it will protect the goats from coyotes, dogs, bobcats, etc. I don't think they'd help with a cougar, but may be prey of choice for that big bad boy, thus saving your goats.

[LaRae]

The negative to using a donkey is that they can be agressive/territorial and do sometimes injure/kill goats.

Generally when dealing with larger predators you need dogs...big dogs who are bred to protect livestock and not afraid of predators.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

OK...a question on dogs.

I know that traditionally Great Pyreneese are the most used, but as a former Rottweiler breeder, I'm considering using a Rottie that has been raised around goats.

They are intelligent, fearless, protective of what is "theirs", and very loyal, but while I'd trust them with small children, I know nothing about their interaction with livestock. Any ideas out there? I'm not stuck on using Rotties, but would like to if feasable.

BubbaBob

[Sundance]

BB.... We had a Akbash a while ago and it was a wonderful dog, gentle and marked a large territory. My son moved to smaller digs and I had to give it away. :( Extremely gentle and loving.

Haven't had a Rot but had a Dob long ago. Not sure I would trust one around livestock.

http://www.whitelands.com/akbash/main.cfm

[LaRae]

There are 5 or 6 livestock guardian dogs....Akbash, Pyrs, Anatolins, Maremas etc etc.

Can't say as I am a fan of using Rotts around livestock...we had a neighbors Rott come after our goats once...it didn't get a second opportunity.

Most livestock guardians are bred to have a low hunt/prey drive and a high protect instinct. Pyrs have been bred for over 1000 years, strictly for livestock protection, others probably as long.

It's not an accident that livestock guardians have 'puppy' features and move in a non-threatening way (to livestock)....compare how a Pyr moves to something like a border collie (whos natural hunting instincts have been channeled into driving...and you definately don't want those for livestock guardians...they have been known to herd animals to death, literally).

I simply would not even consider a non-guardian breed ....you don't buy a Ferarri if you need to haul rocks.

Also consider that most livestock guardians are not the sort of dogs that take commands well. They are bred to think independently from humans, many times they are/were turned out for weeks/months at a time with the livestock so some people get frustrated with their apparent lack of obedience they are used to from other breeds.

You'll never be able to call off a Pyr if they are working/after a predator.

A friend of mine has Akbash, she loves them and they have less tendency to roam like some Pyrs do.

One caveat: Be very selective when buying a guardian....make sure they come from working parents and are raised with livestock.


LaRae

[Sundance]

Great info LaRae. Our Akbash would stay at home while we were on vacation for a week or more. No one to check in at all.

The coyotes (and we have alot of them!) would always stay clear. Prince would range out quite a long way and mark the turf.

Here's a breeder that may be near you.

RootyCreek Farm
Alan and Toni Hall
3048 N. Columbia St.
Milledgeville, GA 31061
478-452-7422

[LaRae]

Thanks Bruce!

We have a female Pyr like that...she's worth her weight in gold!

She's getting some age on her though, 6 in December. Thinking of getting a pup next year to raise up ...considering an Akbash although they are much pricer than Pyrs.

Livestock guardians do work best in teams of 2 or more...but we don't have enough land really to justify having 2....we've had 2 before and they did work really well together.


LaRae

[Sundance]

This one was given to us. How much do they run?

[LaRae]

I understand 400 and up for good purebred pups out of working parents.


LaRae

[Sundance]

Worth it if preditors are a problem.

[BubbaBob]

I wouldn't even consider a dobbie....they were specifically bred by the Kaiser in Germany as a war dog...they are a cross between a rottie for large size, strength, and litter size, crossed with a greyhound for the high-strung temperment. Rotties on the other hand, were cart dogs, fetching firewood and groceries...I wonder if they would work? I just hate to get a real hairy dog in the Georgia heat and humidity, and I love rotts.

BubbaBob

PS...I need ,ore goats...cannot keep up with requests for feta cheese...

[LaRae]

Oh I agree....400/500 is cheap insurance if you have large predators or roaming dogs...which are the absolute WORST thing to deal with as far as I am concerned.

People's pets running loose cause more problems with livestock than predators do from what I've seen.


LaRae

[LaRae]

Let me tell you....those big hairy dogs do just fine in heat and humidity. Have you been to Missouri in the summer...how about Texas? <G>

Pyrs are bred with a low metabolism...they can stand extremes in temp with alot less problem than you. As long as their coat is not matted all that hair insluates them from heat and cold.

Another bonus...low metobalism dogs don't eat much. Our female pyr (who weighs around 75 to 100 lbs) eats around 1 lb of dry dog food per day....slightly increase in extreme cold....she's not thin either.

Our big male we had ate double what she did...he was a more high energy dog too.


LaRae

[Reptyle]

I can't provide much in the way of hands on experience with the subject of the LGDs, but as a dog enthusiast for several years, here would be some of my thoughts.

Livestock Guardians Dogs:
Low metabolism so food requirements and demands are less.
Bred for this kinda work for hundreds of years so it is in the blood.
Most (to my knowledge) are white, which is probably not an accident since back in the day before we had flash lights and other modern means the shepherd needed to distinguish his dog from the predators during their favorite time to attack (night).
The long coat would also be useful during the winter, helping the dogs withstand the elements when predators are more likely to seek "easier" prey ( I would believe).

Rotts:
Black coat would make it hotter than a dog with a white coat and definitely harder to see at night.
Higher energy dogs might require more food and get bored easily staying hours each day with the flock.
Were also used as herd dogs, which would mean they have somewhat of a prey drive and probably contributes to the fact that they've been used in police work to attack.

Please do not misunderstand me I do like Rotts, prefer my American Bulldogs more, but I do think Rotts are beautiful dogs and have always enjoyed studying them.

I hope some of this helps, again just my 2 cents, which may just be about all this is worth. lol

Hope things work out for you and glad to hear you're having success with the goats.

[Sundance]

Wish I had half your get up and go BB. Congrats on the success with goats. I wish I had a larger market sometimes......... Internet goat cheese anyone???

[iddee]

Maybe Bubba will barter work for goat cheese. LOL

[BubbaBob]

Bruce, I called RootyCreek and they took my name and number but said they wouldn't have pups for quite a while...they only have one breeding ***** and she's not presently preggers.

What get up and go are you talking about? I'm basically the laziest person I know...I'm working on being able to make a living without going to a regular job, only working 7-9 mos a year (ain't agri-business great?), and can wander around my property relaxing and claim to be working since I'm looking the fencing over at the same time. The only thing I do that is "work" is honey harvest in the heat.

It's not exactly hard time consuming work to stand in the peanut wagon on the weekends, shooting the breeze with folks that stop, and relieving them of a small bit of cash at the same time...I'm getting paid for what I consider recreation...BS'ing.

BubbaBob

[Sundance]

BB.....

Were they able to recommend any other breeders?? How much do they get for pups??

I hope to be in your shoes in a year or so. I sure enjoy the country life and regret not doing it earlier. Not bragging here, but Oct 8th is my 20 year dry aniversery. Really hard to believe... Wow time flies!!!

[BubbaBob]

Congrats on 20 years...Sept 4 is my first blue chip...but whose looking ahead? LOL.

No...she's a vet and I didn't talk to her...receptionist told her what I was calling about and she just had recp get my name...she was too busy to talk.

BubbaBob

[Keith Benson]

"you don't buy a Ferarri if you need to haul rocks"

You might if you had to move one small rock from point A to point B really, really fast.

Keith

[BubbaBob]

Ferraris move small rocks quite often. They are usually referred to as diamonds though.

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

Oh LaRae...HELP!!!

Milk production is dropping. With three lactating does, I've gone from 3 qts twice a day (expected due to move...thought it would pick up gradually) to a gallon a day total, and production is still dropping. One doe is down to about two squirts per teat per milking.

Free feeding minerals, plenty of good hay, and a half gallon per lactating doe of a good feed mix.

Ideas?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Ok in no specific order:

What kind of minerals? Free choice? Same kind they had at their former home?

Parasites

Heat

Change in food/hay...type/quality and amount

How long have they been fresh? Goats have a natural lactation curve. Also some breeds typically do not produce alot of milk...and that can vary within each breed too...also some does lactation curve can drop sharply off after a certain point.

How much water are they drinking?

Can you clarify what you mean by 3 quarts twice per day? Per doe...so a total of 18 quarts per day?


LaRae

[LaRae]

Bob also what is your feed mix...what's in it and what's the protein?

Do you feed anything additional to feed mix like alfalfa pellets, black oil sunflower seeds etc?

Half gallon per feeding or per day?

What type of hay? Free choice or?

I'm headed to bed...working till 2 tomorrow then will check the board...you can also email me anytime prantersacres@tri-lakes.net

If I can't help you figure it out, I'll start calling other breeders and see what they think.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

3 qts per milking TOTAL...and dropping.

I don't remember the name of the minerals, but it is what Hoegger reccommended, and it's free choice. I don't know what they had at former home.

Feed is Nutrena All Stock, temporarily. The breeder I bought them from gave me the recipe she used and I had a half ton mixed...pickup tomorrow. What I'm using now is 18% protein.

She had been worming monthly, and I continued that regimen, worming last Friday with Safe-Guard, using double the weight doseage on the package for horses. Plan to use Ivemectin orally next month.

It's been around 85-88 degrees with HIGH humidity here, but they are 100% in the woods and thus shaded very well.

Hay is not high dollar alfalfa as that is $6.00/bale around here at a minimum, but it is good, clean, horse quality fescue. Hay is free choice.

Water is hard to say how much, but the water tank holds about 15-20 gallons and I top it off daily and it has not been dry when re-filled.

Half gallon of feed per feeding.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Ok..if I understand you correctly you were getting 2 quarts per day per doe, for a total of 6 quarts per day from all 3 does. That's not 'alot' of milk but lets assume that's normal production for them.

Fescue hay is absolutely NOT going to work with milking does. They need an alfalfa mix, orchard grass/clover mix, or even just orchard grass, brome, timothy, prairie hay....AND you are going to have to support them with alfalfa pellets. You are not getting them enough calcium....so what is going to happen next is you are going to end up with does going down with milk fever next year when they freshen. They pull large amounts of calcium from their bones and if you don't support them nutritionally they won't last.

Safeguard is the least effective wormer out there, basically only good for tapeworms. Ivomec, Valbazen will be more effective. We dose at 1 cc per 50 lbs injected with Ivomec...Valbazen is 1 cc per 20 lbs orally....but you need to take a fecal in to the vet at some point to see if you have a parasite problem....and don't pick the sample up off the ground...catch the berries as they come out into a plastic baggie or something.

We start with a base of 16 percent protien (Purina goat chow, textured, no medications in it isn't bad)...and milkers get between 2 and 4 lbs of grain per day per doe...depending on how much they are milking.

We also do 'add ins' when we feed...I just toss them into their feed bucket when milking.

Alfalfa pellets, black oil sunflower seeds help with calcium, oils, protein. I wouldn't go down lower than 14 percent on a milker..16 is a good medium. Barley is a good choice to add if you need to lower your protein down.

Get some baking soda (you can buy it from the feed store in 25 and 40 or 50 lb bags. Put it out in a mineral feeder free choice. Not on the ground..needs to be up off the ground...if it gets dirty/wet they won't eat it.

Crystalyx makes a good mineral/protein lick tub for goats that is worth considering...I get mine at the feed store. 60 lb lick runs 33.00 roughly...you can use this in addition to your Hoeggers mineral if you like...not saying it's mandantory for the Crystalyx.

Temps: It's been 95 to 105 and humid here the past month basically...and I'm not seeing big drops in milk like that...we are well shaded also.

Also you need to convert your feeding measure over to lbs...some feeds are larger/smaller in volume but that doesn't mean the goats are getting a 'half-gallon' of feed because your container is that size..know what I mean?

Ok it's 5 something in the morning here...I'm headed to work shortly...I'll check back this afternoon!


LaRae

[iddee]

Bubba, One other possibility. Being new at milking, you may not be completely emptying the udders at each milking. Leaving a small amount each milking will cause a goat to completely dry up. It is done purposely when getting ready to breed, so she can have a rest period between kids. You may be doing it accidently. Be sure to strip them completely each and every milking.

[MichaelW]

I was going to say what iddee said. I think that first couple of weeks learning to milk it would be impossible to get most of the milk out.

Also, I wouldn't worm unless you know they need it,
you can build up worm resistance to the medication, I'm told, plus the wormer ends up in the milk and there is withdraw times, but by all means worm if you know they have bad worms.

As LaRea says, nutrition is very important since they don't have a great deal of forage. Call Andi and ask her what she was feeding to get an idea of the level of nutrition she was giving them to give you the level of milk you were getting. Also ask how long they've been milking, probably since early spring. She won't mind giving you some advise. Your weather sounds the same as we've been having for a over a month.

[iddee]

Bubba, If you don't chew tobacco, change your name and throw away those bib overalls. If you do chew, give aech goat a half chew about every two weeks. They love it and it will not hurt them. It may even help a little, who knows.

[BubbaBob]

Red Man Rulz...

The feed mix I pick up tomorrow is what Andi was feeding...here's the recipe:

400 lbs Cracked Corn
150 lbs Soy Bean Meal
250 lbs Whole Oats
50 lbs Wheat Bran
100 Lbs Alfalfa Pellets
50 lbs Beet Pulp
50 lbs Wet Molasses
50 lbs Cotton Seed Hulls
Decox
Ammonium Chloride

That, plus hay, plus minerals, plus water. What else?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Why are you feeding deccox to adult animals?

Adult animals should not ever need to be fed deccox unless there's a problem/illness...you are drinking the milk and making cheese too...that's not good stuff to have in there.

If you have adult animals needing deccox, there's a health problem (possibly genetic) or a management problem (human caused).

Also Ammonium Chloride is not necessary for does...that is for bucks to prevent uniary calci, which does do not get.

You said protein is 18 percent on this mix right? The only thing that I think might be kinda high in ratio is the corn..gotta watch the corn, hopefully the mill that mixes this is very cautious and specific about checking their corn they use with black lights (mycotoxins, molds etc).

Remember...fescue hay will not support milkers...look into getting better hay as soon as possible.

Leaving a small amount of milk in the mammary will not cause a doe to dry off...small as in a few squirts on each side. If a milking doe dries off from a few squirts left in the mammary...she's not got very good dairy genetics.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

"small as in a few squirts on each side"

but what about a larger amount of milk? I noticed the first few weeks when I was learning to milk that I would get what I thought was all the milk and when I let her loose the kids would get a whole lot more from her. After a couple of weeks, I got the hang of it and there was nothing much left when the kids tried to nurse her. I don't know if I would have realized this if I hadn't had the kids there doing a good job of it.

What do you think?

One baby arrived today, another on the way. Can't wait to get home and see the little bugger.

[LaRae]

Does that are dam raising kids will often with-hold milk from you. They do have that ability to control their milk let down. Some does will eventually give in and let you take their milk...but not all of them...we have one doe that won't let you take all her milk as long as she's raising kids..2 or 3 days after you wean her kids she will then stop with-holding milk.

It's not as common to find this happening in does not raising their own kids...but it can...some does will do it when you machine milk.

If you leave half the milk in the udder of a milking doe it will sure cause her to drop in production...however in your case those kids were keeping her cleaned out when you couldn't.

New kids are sure cute! Watch them close with the heat/humidity!


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

I said 18% on the Nutrena, but on re-reading the bag it is 16%. I don't know what the protien is on the custom mix...I just went with the recipe reccomended by the girl I bought the goats from. She's been around goats all her life and I figgered she knows what she's doing. I hope that is a good mix...1100 lbs already ordered and mixed...pickup tomorrow.

I'll work on the better hay...not sure if I can find any locally other than fescue, bermuda, and alfalfa and the alfalfa is EXPENSIVE!!! Occasionally available at $6/bale, but usually in the $7.50 range.

The minerals from Hoeggers is Golden Blend.

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

I remember now, I think, the reasons for the deccox. The Ammonia Cloride was for the bucks and the deccox was for the kids. She is just using one feed for everything for convienence. I don't think this is a good idea for residue in milk and using medications when not necessary. The guy in Crossville that mixes the stuff up will mix it up however you want it. I was going to get the same mix without those two things, but haven't had time to make it out there yet.


Two beautiful black does! Yeeehaw!

[MichaelW]

My neighbor gets alfalfa in compressed bales because its cheaper. Not sure from where, but its still expensive.

[LaRae]

Bob when you go to pick up the feed ask the feed store to figure up the total percentage, it shouldn't be a problem for them to do.

You also need to find out what the withdrawl time is from when you stop using deccox, before you can drink the milk or sell the cheese.

The next time you have the mix done up, do not add deccox if you are feeding it to dairy animals you intend to use their milk from.

I've found out own my own that just because someone has been around goats all their life, doesn't always mean their system is good for what another person wants to do. I can't imagine anyone who sells milk/cheese adding deccox into their feed.

I also don't understand this monthly worming with Safeguard?

I mean I know in some areas they might have to worm on a routine basis (assuming their fecal tests show they need to)...however you don't use the same thing month after month...and Safeguard does nothing for worms other than tapeworms.

There is a time frame after worming that you can't use the milk for human consumption as well....using Ivomec or most any wormer.

I'm waiting to talk to someone about your mix...I think the corn is too high...but I could be wrong...I'll let you know.

Definately work on the hay...that's going to be a potential problem.....I hear Burmuda is a good hay...I don't know what all you have locally for hay other than fescue and the expensive alfalfa. Can you find a alfalfa grass mix hay?


Michael congrats on the does! I think the 'compressed' alfalfa is called Chaffeyhay or something like that?


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

She wasn't using SafeGuard exclusively...she alternated wormers to avoid resistance build-up in the worms. Next month will be Ivomec...by the way, there is no withdrawl period for Ivomec used orally, just for injected use, or at least that's what the UGA extension service says.

I found out what part of my problem is...a doeling that's 4 mos and still sucking off mom...there is no milk left for my cheese. I'm going to try using bandage tape this evenings milking to block the kid.

This mornings milking actually showed improvement...6 pounds from the Alpine and one Nubian...I hope it keeps improving...I have 5.5 lbs of Feta made for Wed morning market and all but 2 4 oz containers are already spoken for...gotta have more milk/cheese...so far, I can already EASILY move 20 lbs of Feta alone per week at $1.25/oz in 4 oz containers, and we have not even approached the Chevre and Herbed Soft Goat Cheese yet.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Ok but you don't need to be worming every 30 days unless your goats need to be wormed. It's very important to do fecals before worming.

I totally disagree with the UGA extension service...there is absolutely NO way to isolate wormer in a goat to prevent it from entering other parts of the body...that's one of the silliest things I've heard.

Here is a website that talks about goats/womers and milk with holding times:

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/wormers.htm#tramisole

Ah well I've seen 'kids' nurse up to a year ...so you might want to start separating the kids from their dams. Good luck with the tape <G> I've seen kids remove it (and does too)!

Please do research out the milk withdrawl time on the deccox medication since you will be feeding it in your new feed mix and you intend to sell cheese made from the milk. You also need to check out your state laws when it comes to milk withdrawl times when you are selling cheese 'publically.'


LaRae

[LaRae]

Ok I just did a search for federal guidelines on using Deccox in milking animals.

http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2005/January/Day-14/i789.htm

Carefully read the limitations section. It says do not feed to animals producing milk for food.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Hmmm...looks like I just wasted 1100 lbs of feed...back to the drawing board.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Bob not necessarily wasted. Do you feed kids separate from the dams? How about selling it to someone who raises meat goats?

If you have any chickens running around feed it to them. You could even feed it to hogs/beef cows as long as you make sure you take it away a certain time before butchering.

I doubt it can be stored for a long time during this heat/humidity....the molasses/corn will grow molds I'm afraid.

I'm trying to find a copy of the mix we used to have done at the mill....if I can find it I'll post it!


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Thanks LaRae...

As for feeding to other livestock, I'm afraid the only livestock I have is goats and bees, and I don't think the bees would like it...oh...wait...it DOES have molasses in it...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Hehehe well you could spread it out and let the bees 'clean' it!!!

You could keep enough to feed your kids with...and post a 'for sale' at the feed store on the wall or wherever else you might think of.

I came up with an idea on the hay situation. You could put out a 50/50 type mix...you don't need to feed pure alfalfa...you can limit the alfalfa you feed to a certain amount per day per head (rough estimate). I'm not sure how you have your hay feeding program set up.

So you could buy 10 bales of alfalfa and really stretch it out by feeding half grassy type hays along with it.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

A rare occurance...I'm GLAD I screwed up...

I picked up the feed this afternoon and found that, since Andi didn't give me an amount, I didn't remember to have the feed store put the Decox or Ammonium Chloride in the feed...just the ingredients listed in the above posted recipe that have amounts. WHEW!!!

Also, the output is SLOWLY picking up...6 pounds from 2 does this morning, 8 pounds from the same 2 does just a few minutes ago.

Now if I can just find some decent AFFORDABLE hay...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Great news!!! Now are you sure about that 'rare occurance' thing? Maybe we should get your wife's opinion!! <L>

Did you have them total up your protein for you?

Your best bet might be to try doing the thing I mentioned in another post...buying alfalfa but feeding a limited amount per day ...not free choice...put the other hay out free choice.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

LaRae...re-read the post. I didn't say it was rare I screwed up...I said it was rare I was glad I screwed up...LOL.

As an alternative to trying to keep alfalfa separate, look these ads in the GA market bulletin and tell me if you see any you would go with. Remember that I cannot handle round bales yet, and I need to be as budget minded as possible and still do good for the goats. These are not all the hay/feed ads...just the ones that showed up on a "orchard" search and are close enough to me to make sense:

Market Bulletin for Aug 17, 2005
Results 1 to 11 of 11 - New Search -
Feed, Hay And Grain
If you have questions regarding ads in this category, call Mia Haney at 404-651-9081 or 404-651-9082.

All hay ads must contain the variety of hay offered for sale; i.e., Coastal bermuda hay, Alicia hay, etc.

'05 Alfalfa, 55 lbs., $5; Alfalfa/Timothy mix $4.50/bale, orchard grass $3. J. Higdon Rossville 706-866-4999

'05 bermuda/orchard/rye/fescue mixed round bales $10 and up. Grady Roberts Aragon 770-684-9866

'05 fescue & orchard grass hay, horse qlty., hvy. sq. bales, fert./limed, rain free. Lamar Long Chatsworth 706-695-5906

'05 fescue orchard hay, $3 square bale at barn, rain free. Bill Myers Blue Ridge 706-492-2373

'05 hay, 4'x5' rolls, fescue-orchardgrass, good qlty. Jerry Dover Ringgold 865-300-9981

'05 sq. bale fescue, orchard grass, clover mix, $2 @ barn, $1.75 behind baler, Plainville/Calhoun area. D. Cobb Plainville 678-462-2002

Bermuda horse rolls and sq. bales, orchard and Russell mix, select equine blend, UGA Master Forager. Richard Roberson Aragon 706-232-0583

Horse qlty. bermuda orchard fescue mix hay behind baler, sq. bales $2.25, JD 4x5 rolls $20. Buddy Cash Adairsville 770-773-7217

So...what ya think?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Oops I did read that wrong!!!!! Sorry <G>

Personally I don't feed round bales...too much waste. I put out enough hay for 1 or 2 days then put out more...with a small herd it's much easier to do this way and you have less wasted hay.

Orchard grass if it's baled right is excellent hay, you can get by with that and using alfalfa pellets or a little alfalfa hay.

I hear Bermuda grass can be good too..but I have no personal experience with it.

Timothy/Alfalfa mix should be an excellent hay.

I'm sure you know how to look at hay and to make sure it smells clean (no molds).

I would avoid the fescue unless there are no other options....or if the fescue was the smaller part of the mix (25 percent or less).

That fescue, orchard grass clover mix might be something to check out if the fescue is not alot of the mix.

I've fed orchard grass mixed with clover and didn't even need to feed alfalfa...the milk production was excellent.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

One round bale will fit in a pickup and you can roll it around by yourself. A fence wrapped around it will help keep the goats from wasting it. A tarp over to keep dry.

Just not sure what you ment by not being able to handle it. Its not the best way but will work.

interested to hear which one will be the best option. I will have to buy some hay this winter.

[BubbaBob]

Right now I have two problems with round bales:

I have 2.5 acres, all woods except homesite. Fenceline is 10-15 feet inside woods...cannot get truck close to fenceline, much less into "goatworld"...which leads to second problem. When I built the fence I built one continuous fence with only entrance a walk thru size gate directly into shelter/milking area. I plan to add drive in gate and cut a drive to fence in next month to 6 weeks, but for now I've got to have carry-able bales.

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

ah.

Goats are pretty neat creatures hugh. Yesterday my goat ate her placenta. Lots of protein in their I guess. I know LaRae wouldn't approve, smile.gif but thats what the old timers say to do. Actually he said to just let her chew on it some. I came back alitte later and she had alread eaten it. She's a hoss.

Idee, whats the best way to grow some home tobacco plants. Seeds and starters are hard to find. I wan't some for smoking my bees. Don't know about letting the goats hold a plug though. Think it helps with worms?

[LaRae]

Why wouldn't I approve? I let my goats eat their placenta. It's full of nutrients.

You know what they say about assuming don't you? <G>

For tobacco to really effect today's parasites they'd need it on a pretty regular basis...most herbal wormers that are used are fed on a daily basis....it would be the same principal.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Oh well I'm a donkey what else is new,

What do you think about those herbal wormers? Seems like you have to give it too them very often to get it to work. Couldn't that be hard on them?

[LaRae]

I'm skeptile about herbal wormers. I've seen people swear by them..and others think they are worthless.

I think if one wanted to use herbal wormers...they'd need to be very on top of things to make sure the goats got the right amount everyday etc...some people just don't have time to make sure each animal eats X amount of wormer on a daily basis.

Also some people think because it's herbal that means it's safe. That's not true..you can kill a goat with herbs just like you can kill them with chemicals.

I've seen studies that say it works, and I've seen other studies that say it doesn't.

Before I'd really believe and trust herbal wormers I'd want to do my own study by taking a couple of goats destinated to slaughter and using herbal wormers on them, doing fecals and comparing them to the goats who are given chemical wormers.

The 'old timers' didn't have everything wrong, I'm from Missouri however and I generally need to see it to believe it <G>

I think too...we have to keep in mind that goats today are not the same as they were 50 years ago. Genetics have improved, general health has improved, medicines and feed have improved as has the understanding of goat physiology ...some people think as long as a goat isn't dead it must be healthy...simply because they've never seen a truely healthy goat.

I say this because I've run into the older people who had goats and they think goats are supposed to look scrubby, coarse haired, thinnish/slab sidded (the kind you often see in movies/tv shows)...that's not how a healthy dairy animal is supposed to look...not even meat goats should look like that!


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

That dang little buck of mine is driving me nuts...that's my next problem to solve.

For all I know ALL my does are preggers...I cannot keep Mr Don Juan in his part of "goatworld". He ignores electric fence, isn't happy if I put another goat in with him, and insists on getting back with the rest of the herd...so far the longest he's stayed in his area is 10 minutes...usually it's more like 1-2 minutes.

Ah well...I'll figger something out.

BubbaBob

PS...I called the hay ads and the clover/fescue/orchard is about 50% fescue and most of the rest is orchard...clover is about gone this late. What'ca think?

[LaRae]

It's worth a try Bob, if it's a good clean hay, probably should at least go look at it...just keep adding alfalfa pellets in.


A the joys of breeding season. <G> Make sure you mark the calendar so you know when you might have kids if you think they are bred.

Try upping the power on your electric fence. Are you using that electric fence tape or the old traditional style wire? A friend of mine has used the tape on her buck herd (7 or 8 bucks) to confine them.

I forgot to mention about the clover. You probably already know this but clover can actually make animals sick or kill them if it's been grown to a certain stage and had a frost..I forget the technical term....just might ask when the hay was baled.

LaRae

[LaRae]

Oh..I forgot to ask...is that all you have to fence in your buck?

We use cattle panels that are 5 foot tall...t-posts supporting them.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Thats pretty much my thoughts on the herbals too. Poke berries are natural but I don't want to eat them. Too bad no one is going to flip the bill on any studys on herbel wormers.

I noticed the Fiasco farms use woven wire and electric for their bucks, while just electric works for their does.

[LaRae]

Some bucks are simply a pain to deal with. Others are quite laid back and don't try to break out even during rut.

I'd use whatever works for a particular situation/farm/goat.

I also keep Lute on hand just in case there is an accidental breeding...thankfully I rarely have to use it.

Oh about those poke berries...are they toxic? I don't know anything about them.

LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Actually if he got three preggers now and the other three in Oct that would be fine...constant milk.

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

Poke berries are poisonous to people. They are pretty, red berries, but you can't eat them. I was just agreeing that just because its natural dosen't mean its safe.

[LaRae]

Hmmm so they are probably toxic to animals too then!


Thanks!

LaRae

[iddee]

As for tobacco, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have to have a federal allotment to raise your own. I would just find a tobacco farmer and ask him to sell me some leaves and then dry them myself. As for helping with worms, as LaRae said, times have changed. 50 years ago, you buy a goat and you expected it to be nearly dead from worms. In that case, YES, it knocks the S*** out of the worms.
Then a broken up time frame kept them clear without building a resistance. Again, the goats then were expected to build many more natural anti-bodies then they sre today, and the final outcome was much less.

As for herbs being safe, try letting your goat browse a Camelia bush, and bury your goat the next day. DEADLY DEADLY

[MichaelW]

My neigbor hasn't dewormed his nigerian goats in about 3 years. I wonder if his method has helped them build natural resistance. Sounds like, he waits till they are about half dead, or at least commming down with the scours and pale gums before he worms. I don't believe he has lost any goats to worms, but he says some of them looked close.

Tobacco farmers are kind of hard to find around here. The only one I knew quit already. I'll have to keep my ears open. I've seen some around but I'm kind of unsure about knocking on their door and expecting them to give or sell me some. I'm thinking if it helps with mites it would be good to put in the smoker. I noticed that thread about the Sumac you are using, maybe I should just use that.

[LaRae]

I don't know about that iddee....

We expect our goats to have alot of natural anti-bodies....the majority of my herd has never had anti-biotics and we show, therefore are hauling our animals around and exposing them to various germs/diseases. Our 6 yr old doe has never had anti-biotics in her life and she's going strong.

We rarely have kidding problems...we've had one bad kidding in the last 6/7 years. We've only ever lost one kid after birth, 3 months of age(suspected genetic problem). We've had one kid born dead (the one bad kidding we've had).

We generally worm 3 or 4 times a year.

I'm not the only herd out there with a similar situation/results.


Michael some breeds are naturally more resistant to worms (Tennessee Fainting Goats are a good example)...does your neighbor milk his Nigerians?

I don't agree with waiting till they are half dead to worm them...first off if you wait till they are that overloaded with worms...the actual worming process can kill them. Just my .02!


LaRae

[iddee]

Michael, if you can find one that is growing leaf tobacco, he will probably let you pull all the flowers and top leaves, along with stalks, for free once he makes his last pull. Possibly even pay you to top it all season. As for the staghorn sumac, I have no opinion on it's usefulness, but I don't think it hurts, and if it gets one mite, it is a good part of IPM. I also use bailing twine "HEMP"in my smoker. It is readily available for free, stores easily,lights easily, and smokes profusely. Possibly the hemp knocks down a few, too. I don't know.

LaRae, I'm not a medical person, just a retarded old redneck. but to me, any time you give a substance to a person or animal for prevention, you are interfering with natural production of anti-bodies. IMO, worming when they are wormy is curing, worming for the prevention of worms is giving anti-biotics.Not that it is bad, just that it is happening. Just my opinion, and like always, opinions are like **********, everybody's got one, and most of them stink.

[iddee]

Wish I knew how to post a smiley.

[LaRae]

Iddee I'm not a medical person (or even a vet)...I tend to use common sense about most things and alot of trial and error smile.gif (that's a smiley)

We don't believe in using heroic measures to save an animal, or spending a ton of money to prolong their life/repair injuries.

I consider worming 3 or 4 times a year to be basic maintence. To clarify I don't worm to prevent worms, I don't believe in worming once a month as part of a preventive plan. I only worm when a fecal test says they are carrying a large worm load. I have some animals that carry heavier worm loads than others without it causing problems so I do take that into consideration before I worm.

When I talk about preventative methods I'm talking about proper food/hay/minerals and shelter...and not keeping animals that have problems, or need alot of attention/extra help.

We (anyone who owns goats) are keeping goats in a controlled setting, outside their natural environment then there have to be some adjustments made...they aren't able to forage over a large range of land when fenced in, aren't able to access natural wormers etc.

I think this is basically true of any livestock. Even the big ranches out in the west that range cattle over 1000's of acres...they do basic medical things, vaccinations etc.


LaRae

[LaRae]

Oops forgot to tell you how to do a smiley!

you type a : and then a ) right next to each other...no spaces! smile.gif


LaRae

[iddee]

a:a)

[iddee]

It didn't work. I told you I was retarded. What now. a:a)

[LaRae]

I wasn't clear <G>

type : then ) right next to each other...no 'a'


SV

[iddee]

smile.gif

[iddee]

AHHHH, now I got it. Thanks

[LaRae]

welcome!!!


LaRae

[Sundance]

Also if you look to the left of the box you type your reply in you will see a "Instant Graemlins" link. Click it, it will open a small pop up, and you can add any number of cute and perhaps a bit obnoxious, faces.

redface.gif :D tongue.gif :cool: :rolleyes: :mad: :eek: :confused:

[iddee]

;) Oh Boy, Bruce, now you are going to get me in trouble. tongue.gif

[MichaelW]

Photos of kids born 8-16-05
http://web.utk.edu/~wu4you/My%204%20Acres/goats/m4a_goats_fencing.htm#kids81605
they are the last photo.

[LaRae]

Pretty girls Michael!


LaRae

[MichaelW]

Here is another goat site with message board that I find useful. Not much traffic but most questions seem to be answered.

http://goatwisdom.com/

[BubbaBob]

OK...how do I get a doe to "let her milk down"? I think I'm being held out on.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Good luck Bob....I've never figured out a way to make a doe who is also raising kids let her milk down until after her kids are weaned/sold.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

The two that I think are holding out on me don't have their kids with them...now what?

BubbaBob

[iddee]

Milk again in 30 minutes.

[LaRae]

Ok why do you think they are 'holding out'?


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Volume...or more precisely, lack of volume.

Two does. One a third freshener with only half an udder...the other half damaged by mastitis, but the good half well developed. The other a first freshener, with a smallish, but normal for first freshener, udder.

Both very healthy. Well fed...you've seen the grain mix...2.5 qts of grain each at each milking...free feeding alfalfa for over a week now...Golden Blend minerals free fed...

Production between 2 and 2.25 pounds per milking for both combined...a half gallon a day total. I should be getting 2 gallons a day...would be satisfied with one gallon a day...

Ideas?

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

How long have these does been milking? Goats have a lactation curve and you are fixing to hit breeding season. Some goats drop off sharply in their 'curve'after they have been milking X amount of time....other goats have a more level curve with no sharp drops.

A doe with mastitis damage will rarely milk very well..there's just too much scar tissue etc (usually)...depending on the pre-disopsition to mastitis, it can be re-occuring too.

Personally I would never want a first freshening doe to milk a gallon per day unless you are talking Saanens or some Alpine lines...it's usually too much milk for the mammary to handle.

IF these does were milking a gallon a day each (and you know this for sure) ...then it's quite possible they are getting later into their 'curve' and then you have to factor in heat/humidity and upcoming breeding season...when does cycle they drop in milk production.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

Frankly, I don't really know just how much they were milking...the girl I bought them from wasn't very specific. I know when I got them July 29, I was getting 1 to 1.5 gal/day, and now I'm down to a half gallon/day, per milking, not per goat.

I read somewhere (Fias Co Farm site maybe) that fennel and fengreek have been reported to increase milk production. Any truth to that, and if so how much how often? I have some of each.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

If they are following their natural lactation curve feeding them fennel and fengugreek seeds isn't going to help much...also keep in mind what you feed ends up in the milk...fennel can be strong in flavor.

If they have been milking several months now (you haven't said when they freshened) what they are doing is natural...especially coming into breeding season...and once they are bred milk production will drop also.

Honestly they do not sound like overly 'milky' (productive) does if you were only getting 1 to 1.5 gal per day out of 3 goats.


LaRae

[MichaelW]

I also read in a book that moving does will often reduce their milk output because the routine has changed. The milking routine they said was very important in production, keeping on scedule and such.

I would assume/suspect these milkers where being milked by their kids, not by a person so maybe thats something? I would breed em, do everyting right to get good milk production next season and if they don't produce what you need then,....
I suspect they weren't sold at a high price, so you have some room to work with, plus you will have the kids, but I would really give them a chance by doing everything right and looking at the overall lactation curve for each goat while knowing whats going on. I'm starting records on my goats and bees now.

Of course this advice is comming from someone who spent the last two days wresting to get a pint of milk. She has plenty more but won't cooperate. I stopped milking her when she had worms, but the kids have kept her milk up. They are really getting a bit old for this. So now I am trying to milk her again, but she's not up with this idea. Things are looking good for my new milker, I milked her out some, but I'm waiting till her kids get older and I go on a vacation to get back and start milking her on a regular routine. Again the price I paid for my does is a consideration in overal expectation. I think they are good genes, but raising them to be good milkers, I believe requires working with them. These goats where bred from really good stock, but left to run wild. So I think it will take me some time to get them to be a good milk producing herd. I think your situation may be similar.

[ September 05, 2005, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Admin ]

[MichaelW]

apologies to all for using a profanity bleeped out with *****s. I've seen it done often, so wrongly assumed that was ok. I also used the word for a female goat that is a mother, so perhapse there was some confusion. Anyway, apologies again.

[BubbaBob]

Don't apologise Michael. I wish admin hadn't edited it...if I had seen the proper term for a mom goat it would have been a learning experience for a new goat person (me). Instead I'm stuck with "mommy goat" which, while technically correct, is not very "professional" in the goat industry.

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

MW, LaRae, or both...or others...

Would it hurt to milk 3 times daily to try to increase production?

BubbaBob

[MichaelW]

from what I've heard, it dosen't make a difference in production to milk 2 or 3 times a day. Considering the amount your getting, I don't think it would hurt to try and see what happens. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[LaRae]

Actually you can increase production by milking 3 times a day (many cow dairies do this)...HOWEVER the animal has to have the milk genetics to begin with ...they can only milk what they are genetically predestined to milk.

You can't make a doe who milks 6 lbs per day milk 10 lbs if she is not genetically capable of doing it.

Your options are to buy more does to meet your demand...or buy does that have better milk genetics...if you are looking at the commercial end of things...in the long run it's cheaper to buy better milk genetics than to feed mediocre does (commercially speaking).


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

I plan to buy, breed, and cull for milk production in the long term. Short term I'm limited by a shortness of cash, and I'm wanting to improve as quickly as possible. The cash issue postpones buying genetics, and the time issue keeps breeding and culling from being of immediate benefit.

I think I'll try a 6am, 2pm, 10pm milking schedule and see what happens.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Each person can set their own goals and agendas...some don't care if their goats milk a specific amount, others do. It's not 'bad' if someone doesn't want a goat to milk 10 lbs a day.

If you want to try and get the most bang for your buck (pun intended <G>)...find a buck with the best PROVEN dairy genetics you can afford and breed him to everything, then cull from that point. Keeping daughters and culling dams etc.

If you use a mediocre buck you aren't going to get much improvement. Look for a buck within the breed you think will get you to your goal (with cheese protein/solids are very important).

Find a buck within that breed that comes out of proven production...this means the person will be on DHIR (milk) test and be able to provide you with papers showing their butter-fat, protein, etc etc.

I can't stress enough that all dairy animals have a lactation curve...after so many months milking they have a natural (or sharp depending on doe) drop in production...and breeding season causes other drops in production. A bred doe will drop in production. If you intend to milk bred does you will have to really feed them well to give them the extra support they need.


LaRae

[iddee]

Bubba, a female goat is a nanny. A male goat is a billy. A young goat is a kid. There is no such thing as a buck or doe goat.

Now you can be both professionally and technically correct.

Anything else is droppings from a male bovine.
I hope those words are acceptable.

[LaRae]

iddee I have no idea where you got your info.

However dairy goats are referred to as bucks and does...you can look it up in the dictionary if you don't believe me.

You can also go to most any dairy goat website (to include the American Dairy Goat Assocation) and find the correct terminology....buck, doe, doeling, buckling, wether and kid.


LaRae

[iddee]

Webster's universal unabridged dictionary
Billy goat A male goat.
Nanny goat A female goat
What does yours say?

[LaRae]

Random House College Dictionary page 175

Buck:

Male of the deer, antelope, rabbit, hare or goat.


page 391

Doe: Female of the deer, antelope, goat, rabbit and certain other animals.


Dairy goats are not referred to as 'nannies or billies', not even in a commerical dairy setting (or any I am familiar with)...if you care to check any dairy goat website or official organization it will confirm what I've said as well.


LaRae

[BubbaBob]

I just want to know what the term for a mom with kids is that offended admin enough to edit MW's post...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Bob the only word I know of to refer to the parents of a kid is to say dam and sire ....so I have no idea what was edited.


LaRae

[Hillside]

While reading this thread, I've learned more about goats than I ever expected possible. It's been extremely interesting.

I've always heard goats called billies and nannies, but it's not too hard to imagine that there are different names for goats used for specific purposes.

I wouldn't argue too much with LaRae. She sounds like she knows her stuff.

Oh, the other thing I've learned about goats is that I don't think I really want any. But I think I'm going to buy some milk to try it out.

[iddee]

Hillside, She's right, but as she said in the above post, not very specific, Could be many animals. Billy and Nanny is specific to goats.

Besides, I'm old-fashioned, and 50 years ago they were all called Billies and Nannies in my little world called the south. Only after we got electricity, running water, and radio & tv did I hear them called Bucks and Does. ;)

[LaRae]

AHA...another possible convert to the goat world!! <G>

Boer goat people (aka meat goats) do often refer to their goats at nannies/billies ...I have no idea why..if it's just cause that's what they hear or what they heard growing up etc.

It's my guess that the shift in terminology is due to public perception of goats and what they mentally associate the words 'billy and nanny' to mean. Goats have gotten a terrible reputation for years now...most of it undeserved.

The American Dairy Goat Association has been around over 100 years now and all the original documents I've seen use the 'buck and doe' terminology...the foundation animals from all of the original breeds (Alpines, Saanens, Toggenburgs and possibly Oberhasli) were imported from Europe. I do chat now and then with European goat breeders and they also use the words 'buck and doe' ....but I have no idea if that's universal or not.


LaRae

[Hillside]

"Could be many animals"

You're absolutely correct. If ever I have goats and rabbits at the same time, I'll have to be very careful that I don't get things mixed up and try to milk the wrong doe. <G>

[BubbaBob]

Hillside, you'd have to be careful about what you tell the hired help to do as well. "Go put the white buck with the spotted doe." could result in a new species...

BubbaBob

[iddee]

What's the going price for rabbit milk???????

[MichaelW]

$3.50 per quart

That may seem cheap, but think about how long it takes to milk all those tiny soybean teets. Soy milk is only like $2.50 per half gallon!

The person I bought my does from had aveage does then bred them to an Alchemy Acres buck for two generations and had exceptional milk production. Then he let the herd do whatever for a few generations. The herd Bubbabobs goats are from where started from well known breeders with high dollar goats, then I'm not so sure milk production was that important for a few generations. My point being, bubbabob, LaRae's suggestion of an exceptional buck is a good idea. As I was saying before if you work with those does they should make a good milking herd.

Now why can larae say goat mommy without being edited by admin? I guess she didn't put some ****'s before it.

Hilside, the grocery store goat milk I've had isn't as good, it has had time to get "goaty". The goat yougurt is excellent.

[LaRae]

Michael did you by chance accidently mispell dam and type in d-a-m-n like the curse word?

I didn't see the post before it was edited...

LaRae

[BubbaBob]

A goat/hay question and a goat observation...

The question. A cow dairy guy 15 miles from me brings alfalfa hay in from Nebraska in 1800 lb bales (3x3x8, highly compressed). He'll sell it to me for $400/bale. That's about the same as the 40 lb bales I get locally when figured by the pound, but he claims the nebraska alfalfa is much higher quality, running 22% protein. Am I being BS'ed, or is it worth it?

The goat observation...DO NOT SHOW A GOAT AFFECTION BY TRYING TO RUB FORHEADS WITH THEM!!!

This morning, while waiting for one of my milkers to finish her feed so I could get the next up on the milking stand, Chloe (stop laughing...they were already named when I got them) was rubbing against my forarm wanting to have her ears scratched. I stuck my face down at her level, murrmering something like, "Chloe, ya gonna give me lots of milk this morning?", then I was gonna rub forheads with her.

MISTAKE!!! BIG MISTAKE!!! I now know that goats butt heads as play. I realized this about 10 minutes after attempting the above forhead rubbing...10 minutes being how long I was out cold, laying in goat crap, after Chloe decided to "play".

Sundance, you just THINK I'm hard headed...Chloe is the champ around here.

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Very possible for NE hay to be high protein...the best way to verify it is to take a small sample to your local university extension/AG office or state lab and have them run a test....they will give you a total breakdown on the hay.

Uh....first rule of goats, don't pretend you are one! <L>


LaRae

[iddee]

BB, you simply amaze me with how quickly you learn.

Next step, get on all fours and pull weeds in the goat pen. Then report back with how four sharp hooves feel in the center of your back. :rolleyes:

[BubbaBob]

I wasn't trying to pretend I was a goat...I was trying to rub, not butt, foreheads, like I've done dogs all my life...I won't do it again though...LOL

On the hay...if it tests out to be that high (22%), is it worth $400 for 1800 lbs?

BubbaBob

[BubbaBob]

iddee...I came in on a turnip truck, but I rode in the cab...

BubbaBob

[LaRae]

Hmmmm it sounds kinda high to me....way high actually.

Alfalfa round bales here (don't they weigh 1000 usually?) can be gotten for under 100.00.

Square alfalfa bales hauled in from KS and NE to MO, which will weigh 75 (roughly) pounds, run under well under 10.00 each...and if you buy them by the ton even cheaper.




LaRae

[MichaelW]

I typed the letter D then typed a * then another * then I used the letter that comes after M and used that to describe a honery "goat mommy" by using the word that LaRae so blatently and wildly uses. Then I was swiftly chastised. smile.gif Admin removed both words. I suppose using **** charecters to edit what you are really saying isn't acceptable. Take heed Idee!! smile.gif I've seen some **** coming from your way!

She didn't fight much today, think she's comming around.

Maybe a helmet and neck brace BB? smile.gif

[LaRae]

Heh...well I've never been called blantent and wild before <L>

I think your 'n' was the problem...?


LaRae

[iddee]

You may be right. I'm sort of a newbee here and haven't quite found the limits. If admin. hits me a time or two I will just have to back off till I am within their limits.
I think, tho, yours was a natural mistake, as I haven't seen anything you have posted that sounded like you were TRYING to be offensive. Also, I notice you have only questioned why, and not badmouthed anyone. I think you, like I, are in a learning curve.

[BubbaBob]

Helmet and neck brace h e double toothpicks...I'm just going to keep my head up in the goat pen from now on...

BubbaBob

[Tim Vaughan]

Good quality alfalfa has lot's of leaves, rather than stems. Perhaps easier than getting it tested. In Africa we raised our kids on our own goat's milk after they were weened from my wife. We had about 30 when we left to come back to the us. I lost three to two hives of A. m. scutelata. I'll probably tell the story sometime.

[BubbaBob]

I always thought the latin designation for AHB was funny...pronounce it "scoot-a-lotta

BubbaBob